Something missing...

[Ti Designs]

Take a good look around the Serotta website, it's pretty clear that they are serious about making the best bikes in the world. There's also a section on their fit program which is aimed at the cycling industry, not the end user. This makes sense to me, it's the shops working with the customers, Serotta builds frames. The fit program insures that shops have qualified personel, adding value to the frames by making sure they fit - keeping an eye on the next step of the process...

So I looked at the fitting section and followed the various names back to fit studios around the country - from the industry's perspective this is the next step in the chain (from the customer's perspective it's the first step). It's pretty clear they know bike fit, most use the Serotta Size Cycle and offer various levels of fitting - some even use lasers! When all is said, done and paid for, the customer has a bike that fits perfectly.

The next step isn't so clear. You've got your new perfect fitting bike, now don't let the door hit you in the a$$ on the way out... In golf you have the golf pro, in tennis there's the tennis pro, in cycling there's pavement. In a thread not too long ago about beginner riders the idea of a new rider skills day came up, skills to learn were listed and links posted - all better, right? Most cycling clubs run something like this, where they take a day and teach people the skills needed to ride. It's kinda like a 2 week PhD program...

Coaching a new rider isn't a quick thing, it's breaking bad habits and forming new ones - it doesn't happen in one day. How many people fall over when they first switch to clipless pedals? All they need to do is replace the habit of pulling up and back at the top with twisting at the bottom. If you can teach a rider all the skills they need to ride in an afternoon, why can't anyone teach riders how to use clipless pedals in 5 minutes? Teaching new (and some not so new) riders takes time. You make corrections in what they're doing and send them off to practice, then you make more corrections and send 'em off again. I ride with my new riders 2 - 3 times a week, then I cut it down to once a week when I'm sure that the form is there.

When I say coaching most people think about some guy with a clipboard and stopwatch, or some guy on the internet (who claims to have coached some Tour winner) who sends workouts via e-mail. This has nothing to do with that type of coach. The guys who claim to have gotten their riders to new heights (and for what it's worth, it's the rider's who put in the effort) want to work with the top riders. It seems to be below them to work with riders who lack basic skills. It's one thing to say you coached a rider to some victory, it's another thing to say you started with someone who didn't know the first thing about riding and you made a cyclist out of them. There's an easy way to tell the difference between these two types of coaches, go for a ride with them. If you're a new rider and your coach consistantly shows up for the rides, you're on the right track...

I have no doubt that this is the next step in cycling. Best bike, best fit, best rider - no amount of carbon fiber can make up for that last part. It's a question of value. The "high zoot" fit studios can fit a customer on an expensive custom bike and they'll wobble down the street. I can fit a customer on an average bike and work with them. What the fitter can see in two hours on a trainer and what I can see from multiple sessions on the road are worlds apart. They set up saddle position based on knee/pedal position 'cause it's all they have to go by. I talk about large muscle group balance, get feedback from my riders as they climb hills and tweek the position - which would you rather have? In the end, a fit studio alone can't compete.

Just to bring this all full circle (back to Serotta) there's the issue of the bike. I have nothing against full blown custom, expensive bikes. I just don't feel it's a wise choise for the new rider. New riders don't have a clue what they're getting into. With every single rider I've coached from beginner for a season came the same feedback - they had no idea what was to come, learning the skills and techniques has opened up the world of cycling to them. It's easy for a rider to upgrade to a better bike - many of my riders do in their second season. Their position on the bike is established, they've learned what they like. In contrast, getting the expensive bike before learning about cycling is like picking out a car without knowing anything or ever test driving. Most people go in wanting a sports car and come out owning a luxury sedan or an SUV...

[Fixed]

hands on bro you are on smart bikie bro cheers :beer:

[Ti Designs]

hands on bro you are on smart bikie bro cheers :beer:


Yeh, and Beta was better than VHS, but in the end the format with the better marketing won. The fit studios have the slick marketing and nobody wants to admit to not knowing something if it seems everybody else does. People want an easy button, spending lots of money on a bike is easy, learing how to ride well is hard (well not really, but they don't know that). Maybe I shoud do the Phillip Morris thing and play both sides???

[MarleyMon]

Personal coaching is something I would find worthwhile.
I had a Serotta fitting in Jan. and learned a lot. I determined I didn't need a new bike, but did make several useful adjustments. Because it was a slow time at the shop, I got a good long session and learned a lot about technique that I have tried to build on.
Also got a lot of respect from the LBS for "going about it the right way", namely finding a fit that worked for me, then looking at bikes that fit rather than choosing a bike, then making it fit (talking stock size bikes here - luckily many fit me well). It just worked out that the bike I had was really good for me.
I think the next step is the training you describe.
You will have to overcome the perception that everyone who spends X dollars on a bike has - "I know how to ride a bike."
Also, the cost factor. I paid the full rate for fitting, because I did not buy a new bike. I thought it was well worth it, which is why I would be more likely to invest in some good coaching, but the cost of an experienced, knowledgable coach's time would be a consideration.
Good luck, I like your posts.

[jerk]

coaches.

jerk

[Ray]

First off, I agree that a custom bike is pretty silly for a beginning rider. You don't have to be a Euro pro to get a custom, but you should have already developed some pretty good ideas of what you like, what you don't like, how you like to ride, how you DON'T like to ride, etc.

So, starting from the assumption that the rider has some miles under his or her belt, a coach may or may not be an important next step. If a rider is getting a custom bike with the intent of becoming a faster rider or even a better rider in an area other than speed, then, yeah, I agree that coaching is probably a key 'next step'. I'm sure I could add 1-2-3 mph to my average speeds if I got serious about it and hired a coach to give me input. Hell, I added somewhere between 1-2 just by trying to for a couple of seasons and sort of adopting a 'training plan', as it were. I'm sure it would have been more effective if developed by someone who had a little bit more than the slightest idea of what they were doing.

But if the intent of getting a custom is just to get a bike that is a bit more comfortable and handles better than the best bike you've ever had, getting a good custom bike is probably enough. Myself, I'd been riding for almost ten years when I got my first custom. I'd been through a bunch of bikes, had a good idea of what I liked and what I didn't, and had a main ride I was very happy with. I got a custom just to see what more might be possible. My expectations were quite low, given how pleased I already was with the bike I was riding. When I got the custom, the designer asked me whether I was willing to try a position that might make me more efficient on the bike and I was open to it, but only to a limited extent. After trying it, I sort of migrated back to a mid-point between that position and the one I'd been riding for quite a while. I just wasn't as comfortable in the more efficient one for longer rides. He designed the bike around that intermediate position and I rode off into the sunset a happy camper. I was a little bit more comfortable on the bike (but I'd been VERY comfortable on my previous ride), but the revelation of the custom was the handling. A combination of more responsive and more stable that I didn't realize was possible. The bike just disappeared.

To the extent that the handling gave me a bit more confidence, it might have made me a marginally better rider, but I was an adequate bike handler before, so I think it was just about enjoying the ride more. I don't think the bike made me a better rider in any meaningful way - just a happier rider. Which I was more than satisfied with. I didn't rider faster or farther - I already did plenty of miles at a speed that was OK for long days in the saddle but wouldn't set anyone's world on fire. I had and have no interest in taking that next step and getting a coach. If I was trying to get faster or wanted to start racing or setting PRs on century rides, it would probably be a good thing to do. But those were never my goals, so no need.

Coaching is there for folks who want it, but they have to make the effort to go find it. I don't see anything wrong with a custom shop offering it as the next part of the custom package, but I don't think it should be mandatory. Not all of us want it.

-Ray

[1centaur]

$/hour X hours required = ?

While everything TiD says is correct, the newer the rider the less he/she knows the value of what TiD could offer. And that's before we get to the issue of "coach" personality risk for the client, the drag of taking that time on a new bike to work on stuff, the lack of uniform coaching skills across this great nation of ours...oops, sorry, political season you know.

I think there's a market there, but it's not as big, easy and obvious as the fitting market. I also think the key time to make the sale is 2 months after buying a bike when it's obvious that experienced riders "know" something that newbies don't. Let them fall over in their new clips if they want, but if they are going to get serious about skills and pay the money, it will happen a little later. Has to be group lessons to be cost effective, which forces a schedule on the buyer he/she may not like.

[Smiley]

TiDesigns is my hero but I do disagree that a custom bike for a beginer is a waste of $. If said beginer has a fit issue that a stock bikes does not fit the bill for or a medical issue that can only be addressed with custom then why not. And BTW most that seek my services start out the fit process trying to fit a stock bike and its only when using a size cycle we determine that they need custom is the conclusion we then move towards this result.

And then there is the issue of colors, if you can pay the Bill why not get custom for the color paint choices :banana:

[Karin Kirk]

Interesting thought Ti. I like the idea.

One obstacle is that it's not obvious enough to a newbie that they are lacking in skills that a coach can give them. A new golfer knows they stink when it takes them 86 strokes to make it to the first hole. Ditto tennis. In the ski biz it's the same thing. Even high-end skiers want coaching because there's always stuff on the mountain they can't do. But as Marley pointed out, everyone knows how to ride a bike, or at least they think they do. I think one place to start out with this concept is with mountain biking, where the situation is a lot like skiing. People know they need skills to ride over anything more interesting than a dirt road.

But I don't mean to be a nay-sayer, I think it's a neat idea and it would be interesting to see if it could work.

[Ti Designs]

If said beginer has a fit issue that a stock bikes does not fit the bill for or a medical issue that can only be addressed with custom then why not.

I'll certainly agree with that. Three of my coaching clients ride a Serotta La Corsa - their custom version of a Fierte Ti. My goal is always to get them on the bike and get them started, worry about the expensive bike later.

And then there is the issue of colors, if you can pay the Bill why not get custom for the color paint choices :banana:

I've learned long ago not to argue colors with customers.

Has to be group lessons to be cost effective, which forces a schedule on the buyer he/she may not like.

I would have to disagree at least in part with that. I do coach in groups to bring down the cost, but for new riders it's got to be individual lessons. It's just like group rides, the experienced groups stay together, the newbies wind up a mile apart.

But if the intent of getting a custom is just to get a bike that is a bit more comfortable and handles better than the best bike you've ever had, getting a good custom bike is probably enough.

I get many of my coaching clients from doing basic bike fittings. They aren't comfortable on the bike, so they come in, I work with them and not only adjust the bike but also explain how it should work and where the weight is supported. It's pretty clear that there's more there than we can cover in an hour or two. These aren't people who are interested in going faster, these are people who have notice that some are comfortable on their bikes and some are not, and they want to be part of the comfortable set - that means riding skills and techniques.

Another set of people a good coach can help are the people who come into the sport because injury is booting them out of another sport. Done right, cycling can be great for the body. Done wrong cycling can be as damaging as any other sport short of base jumping.

[Len J]

list of skills would you propose teaching?

Len

[cadence90]

I guess I don't understand what exactly is "missing". :confused:

Of course, I live in LA and there is no shortage of good bike shops, good bikes, and good coaching here (not to mention Carson Velodrome: the best coaching one can get, imho). Some of the shops list coaches on their bulletin boards, or through the better clubs. I haven't seen much indication of a "door slamming azz" mentality if one is really interested.

A serious rider who gets a Serotta-type fitting, buys a high-end bicycle and wants coaching here would have no problem at all finding it.
But I think that's a pretty small market, even here, where even at many of the "best" shops the majority of bikes being sold are Electras, etc.

[Ti Designs]

list of skills would you propose teaching?

Depends on what the client needs. With a total novice I would start with position on the bike. This is all stuff covered in the fitting, but it hasn't become habit, and it needs to. Next is pedal stroke - I have better luck teaching pedal stroke with the use of an indoor trainer, but at least I can give them the ideal what should happen. Then comes bike control. New riders think the bars are a steering wheel - they're not. Pull on the bars and you'll wobble down the road, which is exactly what many of them do. Steer from the hips and use the body weight and the bike just knows where to go. Given a lesson on pedal stroke and a lesson on bike control, I can have most new riders up on rollers in 5 miniutes.

Cadence is a hard lesson to teach. At first the heart rate goes way up simply because muscles are firing so fast. The body reacts to that, increases capilary and before you know it you're turning the pedals at a higher cadence with the same heart rate. Getting people to do it is hard, you have to get them to push beyond their comfort zone, then back off, and do it all over again. After a while they're comfortable at a higher cadence. The same technique is used to teach drafting. When you first start out you get right in on someone's wheel and your brain starts screaming "you're gonna die!!!". So you push it to that limit for 30 seconds, then you back off, then another 30 seconds...

Contact is one of those drills that people fear until they try it. If you ride with a group, at some point you're going to make contact with another rider. If you know what to do it's no big deal, if not you're about to hit the pavement. I'm just guessing that getting knocked over at low speed on grass is less painfull than getting knocked over at high speed on pavement.

Hill climbing - it's a large subject. Hill climbing is a lot of technique, a good understanding of which muscles to use and a tactical understanding of any hill.

Beyond this we get into what the customer wants out of coaching. A number of my riders are doing Mt Washington this year. We've gone over climbing steep stuff, setting a pace, using other techniques to hold momentum... Two of my clients want to be more comfortable riding on gravel paths on skinny tires - it's a change in position, a chance in rider thinking, and not something I can throw into a group Lesson.

[Len J]

Depends on what the client needs. With a total novice I would start with position on the bike. This is all stuff covered in the fitting, but it hasn't become habit, and it needs to. Next is pedal stroke - I have better luck teaching pedal stroke with the use of an indoor trainer, but at least I can give them the ideal what should happen. Then comes bike control. New riders think the bars are a steering wheel - they're not. Pull on the bars and you'll wobble down the road, which is exactly what many of them do. Steer from the hips and use the body weight and the bike just knows where to go. Given a lesson on pedal stroke and a lesson on bike control, I can have most new riders up on rollers in 5 miniutes.

Cadence is a hard lesson to teach. At first the heart rate goes way up simply because muscles are firing so fast. The body reacts to that, increases capilary and before you know it you're turning the pedals at a higher cadence with the same heart rate. Getting people to do it is hard, you have to get them to push beyond their comfort zone, then back off, and do it all over again. After a while they're comfortable at a higher cadence. The same technique is used to teach drafting. When you first start out you get right in on someone's wheel and your brain starts screaming "you're gonna die!!!". So you push it to that limit for 30 seconds, then you back off, then another 30 seconds...

Contact is one of those drills that people fear until they try it. If you ride with a group, at some point you're going to make contact with another rider. If you know what to do it's no big deal, if not you're about to hit the pavement. I'm just guessing that getting knocked over at low speed on grass is less painfull than getting knocked over at high speed on pavement.

Hill climbing - it's a large subject. Hill climbing is a lot of technique, a good understanding of which muscles to use and a tactical understanding of any hill.

Beyond this we get into what the customer wants out of coaching. A number of my riders are doing Mt Washington this year. We've gone over climbing steep stuff, setting a pace, using other techniques to hold momentum... Two of my clients want to be more comfortable riding on gravel paths on skinny tires - it's a change in position, a chance in rider thinking, and not something I can throw into a group Lesson.

that'sthe kind of stuff I thought you were talking about.

Back when I started riding, it was the kind of stuff you learned from more experienced cyclists in group rides. The old guys would mentor the newer riders. You had to be willing to take some crap, but the payoff was hugh.

Isn't that the way it happens now?

I have a group of older guys from my neighborhood that have just gotten into cycling. You know the typw, lots of enthusiasm, too much money, and impatient as hell. I ride with them about once a week and am peppered with questions. I finally aksed them at the end of a ride, what they wanted to learn on the next ride..........They talked about it a little and one of them said...."I want to ride smoother." they all nodded their head agressivly. This opened a whole series of rides on position and cadence......but they were ready for it.

Isn't what your describing all of our responsibility? If we don't pass it on, who will?

Len

[Bill Bove]

A couple of years ago two older women, recreational ridersasked me if they could tag along on my easier days to up the speed on their harder days. Isaid why not, just as long as you don't comprimise myride too much. We rode together twice a week with me setting pace in front of them for two years and it worked out great for them as I pulled them faster than they would normally go and I kept a more even pace in a better gear and cadence than Iwould have if I were just tooling around taking it easy. We all upped our game.

Fast forward to last spring when we would regularly see one of the faster local cat 1's out riding with a man and woman who were clearly beginers. They were paying him to ride with them and teach them things like shifting, riding in traffic, yada, yada, yada... Rudy, you're my hero. Sandy and Judy, let's see, two years at twice a week at... get those check books out girls :banana:

[beungood]

<<I have nothing against full blown custom, expensive bikes. I just don't feel it's a wise choise for the new rider. New riders don't have a clue what they're getting into. With every single rider I've coached from beginner for a season came the same feedback - they had no idea what was to come, learning the skills and techniques has opened up the world of cycling to them. It's easy for a rider to upgrade to a better bike - many of my riders do in their second season. Their position on the bike is established, they've learned what they like. In contrast, getting the expensive bike before learning about cycling is like picking out a car without knowing anything or ever test driving. Most people go in wanting a sports car and come out owning a luxury sedan or an SUV...>>>

Ti designs , I wish I read this post along time ago! I have come to the conclusion over the last few years of what is in the post above. I think I got more out of riding with William and him helping me make small adjustments and tips than I have from some bad fittings and suggestions from Shop people who think they are all knowing. I think you are on to something here. I have been interested in having a custom bike built just for me ,but, felt as though ( and several of forum people have backed this up) that I should get alot of ride time under my belt to really get a feel for what I want out of my sled and what would be a good rig for me. Otherwise id have thrown good money after bad and had a good result. I got a tatse of the Custom route with my other bike (ZNFDL's Spectrum Beam) but I Feel im ineffiecently spinning my wheels to some extent and thought how can some guy tell me whats good for me on a fixed machine and not out on the road. I think Ti Designs has a good idea. I wondered how much I could imporve with some knowledgeable help.


I can remember when I got my Allez Comp Cro-Mo and was wondering how much id lose selling it (remember William?) and I caught some rides with William and hed make some suggestions not a ton at a time but a few here and there and I found I began to get better and Faster. My rides became alot more enjoyable. And even had some breakthough informal races and then things clicked..

I think this idea would make great sense and keep alot of bikes from becoming hanging wall art and keep people interested in bikes and improving. Damn im wordy today.

[Bill Bove]

coaches.

jerk

Does this mean the jerkis back? welcome home prodigal bro, I missed you. I did see Bill Russel on ESPN a couple of night's ago, he looked older but he's still sharp as a tack. I loved that guy. not in a biblical way, not there's anything wrong with that just in a young rebel looking for something to rebel against way.

[1centaur]

A lot of people are turned off by the gruff group ethos - some are not or can deal well enough. TiD may provide a more 360 degree perspective than an experienced group rider because of his fitting experience.

I agree with TiD that individual lessons would be more helpful than group lessons. It's the cost effective part I am hung up on, given the perception of value. Most of us here probably value the kinds of things he would teach more highly than newbies because it took us a long time to learn them (heck, I still don't know some of them, but I have no interest in group rides and am happy and comfortable). But to be worth TiD's time, I'm thinking $25 an hour minimum, not including commute time (I'd want to ride on my roads, not his), and 5 hours minimum over 2-4 sessions, most likely on weekends. $125 for 2-3 weekend days to learn skills you might not appreciate at the beginning may be seen as a bargain vs. a $200 fitting or a $7,000 bike, or it may be seen as desperate upselling. $10 an hour with 5 clients might seem more interesting and less pressurized.

I don't know - maybe $50 an hour for 3 1-hour sessions? Does the fitting location take a cut? Do the hours work outside of the fitting location? When does the "sell" occur? Most effective in the fitting location but that requires giving a cut. I guess I like the idea and am struggling with the business proposition.

[swoop]

i dunno. i mean your point is spot on... but at the same time.. there's an assumption that its about developing some sort of mastery or even approaching this thing with that kind of curiousity and understanding.

i think more folks just want the gear and the appearance of being the thing rather than having to deal with being that thing. hey its the bike of the year and it costs this much and its made of this wundermaterial...

and when you suggest to them that it's actually a long apprenticeship towards developing the skill-sets.. they get really hostile.

so there are folks that come to a certain bike having developed a relationship to the thing and are looking for an instrument... and there are those that are using the thing more as a shield or to fill a hole.
one is about skill and mastery and requires a certain vulnerability and the other is about something superficial and an approximation.. but doesn't really take the effort.

and i think there's room for both. but the one's that discover that there is a lot going on regarding bike riding... i think the work is in offering as much help to them as they want, seeing them as equals, and looking out for them...

and the others.... ah, its a different world.

they may look like the same thing.... but that's just on the surface.

so i think its ok to buy a 10k bike and just let the thing make you happy. and its also ok... to see it as just a way into something deeper. i can see both sides at work.

so it really is about balance isn't it.

you can just walk in and buy a ducati and kill yourself leaving the lot.. but with most descents theres this hill you have to climb.

it's like the matrix.. its a matter of what color pill you swallow. what's different now for me is that when i started i was scared of the dudes on the group rides.. if you made the smallest error.. they screamed at you with abandon (they were doing you a favor).
it was a good way to learn.

[beungood]

I had this thought that maybe the lessosn are a much better and more practicl use of money. As you ride more you evovle and get better . That will throw off your fit and require alot of adjustment won't it?

If you have the coach you are getting feedback and analysis of your postion and output from someone and can adjust and have a more enjoyable ride.

[Bart001]

i think more folks just want the gear and the appearance of being the thing rather than having to deal with being that thing.

That's something I really like about this "hobby" of mine. There is a lot to do along the way of becoming that thing, namely, a proficient rider.

[Fixed]

i dunno. i mean your point is spot on... but at the same time.. there's an assumption that its about developing some sort of mastery or even approaching this thing with that kind of curiousity and understanding.

i think more folks just want the gear and the appearance of being the thing rather than having to deal with being that thing. hey its the bike of the year and it costs this much and its made of this wundermaterial...

and when you suggest to them that it's actually a long apprenticeship towards developing the skill-sets.. they get really hostile.

so there are folks that come to a certain bike having developed a relationship to the thing and are looking for an instrument... and there are those that are using the thing more as a shield or to fill a hole.
one is about skill and mastery and requires a certain vulnerability and the other is about something superficial and an approximation.. but doesn't really take the effort.

and i think there's room for both. but the one's that discover that there is a lot going on regarding bike riding... i think the work is in offering as much help to them as they want, seeing them as equals, and looking out for them...

and the others.... ah, its a different world.

they may look like the same thing.... but that's just on the surface.

so i think its ok to buy a 10k bike and just let the thing make you happy. and its also ok... to see it as just a way into something deeper. i can see both sides at work.

so it really is about balance isn't it.

you can just walk in and buy a ducati and kill yourself leaving the lot.. but with most descents theres this hill you have to climb.

it's like the matrix.. its a matter of what color pill you swallow. what's different now for me is that when i started i was scared of the dudes on the group rides.. if you made the smallest error.. they screamed at you with abandon (they were doing you a favor).
it was a good way to learn.
bro that is one of the best reads ever imho
cheers :beer: abby ale for swoop

[3chordwonder]

I'm only extrapolating from my own experience but there's got to be a market segment of buyers who value the accelerated learning at a price worthwhile for a coach. Perhaps a lot of those people would also be the ones willing to spend a lot of $ on a good bike. Maybe they're a bit older too so they have the life experience to realize that it's money well spent.

There's so much stuff to know to make a ride an enjoyable controlled experience before you can start getting serious about interval training etc. Simple stuff like clipless pedals, more advanced but equally critical things like descending a mountain safely, plus the basic mechanical knowledge needed to understand, adjust and control the bike. That kind of stuff makes riding so much more enjoyable that for those who don't happen to have a willing and knowledgeable friend to help them, it's well worth a bunch of $ to learn quickly from somebody who knows. I would pay for it - I know I did when I took up scuba diving. Learning from shouting yelling roadie groups is a slow and inefficient way to do it, imho fwiw.

[sg8357]

The League of American Wheelmen* have a 2 day course called Road 1.
Class room and and on the road training. Covers basic mechanics,
traffic law, emergency maneuvers and group riding. The course is for
rec riders, no racing info. Taught be League certified instructors,
get your Club to get some trained.

Scott G.
*yes, I know they have new pc name.

[stevep]

ride with better riders.
its all free...

[1centaur]

ride with better riders.
its all free...

Those who can...can't always teach. Way back, Johnny Carson got some tennis lessons from Johnny Mac as part of the sales price for his house. I always thought that was likely a wasted lesson.

[DarrenCT]

Those who can...can't always teach. Way back, Johnny Carson got some tennis lessons from Johnny Mac as part of the sales price for his house. I always thought that was likely a wasted lesson.

haha very funny considering that i teach tennis for a living :)

johnny mac had a terrible forehand anyways imho....

[stevep]

Those who can...can't always teach.
.

this isnt tennis.
this is an endurance sport with a lot of nuance.
you have to pay attention.
its not teaching.
its learning.
and figuring out why.

[swoop]

its all such small stuff. it kind of looks ridiculous to me when i say it out loud. its a bike.. you ride it. any kid can do it.

but like all things it can be a pathway to something very specific or a childs toy... or if you're lucky.. both.

for me.. i'm not a natural athlete... i'm really not natural at anything. i work really hard to suck this bad at it.

[Bud_E]

+1 on much of what has been said.

I've always loved riding but it became something much different ( and much better ) when I joined a local club race series. I got yelled at a lot ( especially in the beginning ) and received friendly criticism from the older racers which taught me a lot. If you can put your ego aside, I recommend it.

One of my riding buddies is a former European pro (raced back in the 70's) who's the best bike handler I've ever seen in person ( and a really nice guy ). I learn a lot by just riding behind him and watching what he's doing.

[regularguy412]

+1 on much of what has been said.

I've always loved riding but it became something much different ( and much better ) when I joined a local club race series. I got yelled at a lot ( especially in the beginning ) and received friendly criticism from the older racers which taught me a lot. If you can put your ego aside, I recommend it.

One of my riding buddies is a former European pro (raced back in the 70's) who's the best bike handler I've ever seen in person ( and a really nice guy ). I learn a lot by just riding behind him and watching what he's doing.

This is one of the most important statements in this whole thread, tho much of what has been said here is spot-on. I mentioned something similar to this in a thread a few weeks ago : Everyone , and I mean _EVERYONE_ (newbies and experienced alike) need to leave their egos at the end of the parking lot when the group rolls out [provided its not a *real* race]. Those of us who have ridden or raced enough, _KNOW_ what can happen when one rider makes the wrong mistake at the wrong time. Please don't misunderstand; I spent the first three years of my racing career just developing my fitness, learning technique and understanding what is 'usual and customary' about group riding and racing. And,, I was certainly not blessed with great athletic prowess ( didn't manage to pick my parents too well). I was shelled out the back of EVERY race pack I entered for the first three years.

I say all this to underscore the fact that: if I can do it, _ANYONE_ can do it -- with the right attitude, committment and instruction. However, without any one of those three components present, it becomes a long and demoralizing process.

Mike in AR

[Ti Designs]

ride with better riders.
its all free...

I never paid for coaching. I had three of the best coaches, they never charged me a cent. To give back to the sport I coached the Harvard cycling team for 8 years - never took a cent. I wish it could always be that way.

My dentist charges $200/hour, most of that time is spent in the waiting room reading back issues of Golf Digest. I take time off from work to fix things around the house 'cause you can't find a contractor who works for less than three times what I make at the bike shop. So here I am with 15 years of racing experience, 8 years of coaching experience and a whole lot of time invested in figuring out how to teach riders things that come so natural to me - what's my time worth? I fear the day one of my riders says "I've paid this much for coaching and haven't learned a damn thing", but thus far all of my past clients are sending me new clients, so I guess they both see the price as fair and they see the value.

Steve,

You should give up the group ride thing for a week, show up and watch what happens to the new rider(s). The good riders take off down the street and leave the new riders in the dust. Not much learning goes on when that happens. Last year I sent a girl I sold a bike to on your Saturday morning rides. People did stay with her, but there ain't much a new rider can learn from another new rider 'cept "I don't want to look like THAT on a bike!"


Two things I have to add to the conversation. First, being a good cycling coach is way harder than being a good cyclist. Not only do you need to be able to do things, you need to think about HOW you do them, and be able to explain them to your riders. Second, if you're forming new habits, consistancy counts, so you need to work around their schedule. I wound up coaching Aimee Vassee in part because I had coached her teammate and there was trust there, in part because nobody else wanted to get up at 4:30AM.

The second thing is that the learning curve is a curve, it levels out at the top. At some point the client becomes a riding partner. If they're not learning from you, they shouldn't be paying you.

As for the custom bike and fit, I have a huge advantage over any fit studio because how you fit on a bike changes over time. Over the winter I have my riders at the gym doing isolation work. Glutes get stronger, I increase the angle at the hips (more setback) to make full use of that strength. Stem lengths also change. I run a higher stem with less extension in the winter abd extend it out and down as the summer rolls along. With the exception of injuries, fit does stabalize over time. My Serotta is a geometry copy of my last bike which was a copy of the bike before it. I came to my cycling position with a number of bikes that never fit right. Had I skipped all that, one option would be to go to a fitter and have them fit me to a bike. I had a fitting done when I was at Serotta Fit School, they put the handlebars 12cm higher than where I have mine.

[Ahneida Ride]

TiD

Some is us are outside the "Bell Curve".

We really need custom no matter what.

My first bike was a Custom Rapid Tour Legend and it is definitely the best
investment I have ever made. ;)

I do approve of your post fitting ride school. I'd sign up.

[toaster]

What about descending and cornering?

It seems many people talk about frame geometry and the bike's ability to corner as if their own technique and balance is spot on and the rest of the equation is all about equipment. Isn't rider input more important than some of the differences in framesets?

[William]

Ahhh, nevermind.



William

[stevep]

Steve,

You should give up the group ride thing for a week, show up and watch what happens to the new rider(s). The good riders take off down the street and leave the new riders in the dust. Not much learning goes on when that happens. Last year I sent a girl I sold a bike to on your Saturday morning rides. People did stay with her, but there ain't much a new rider can learn from another new rider 'cept "I don't want to look like THAT on a bike!"
.

for the record. that ride is not a novice ride, its never been a novice ride and you shoulda asked what kind of ride it was before sending her.
part of a coaches gig is knowing where the athlete is at and what they are ready for. dont blame me for that.