OT: You know those curlicue florescent bulbs we all should be buying?

[Kevan]

Well, I'm a bit slow out of the gate. I bought one just to see what the light is like and frankly...it lacks warmth and is now living its light down in the basement. So...what to buy folks? Which of these energy saving humdingers does the best job pretending to be a warm-glowing, energy-sucking, incandescent? What about wattage too?

Please enlighten me.

[david]

yeah, know what you mean.
my wife was all for those things.
but i had to be mr. huge carbon footprint and say no.
too industrial. i need calm at home.

[3chordwonder]

I know what you mean, there's 3 here in my home office that need to be booted to some kind of 'utility' area, the light is almost fluorescent type cold.

However - I'm told that these things come in different light 'colors', making me hope there is a 'warm' option. We might just be using the 'Freezer-D-Lite' color by accident.

[JohnS]

Some people I know do a combo of flourescent and incandescent. That way, they get savings with some of the warmth.

[rePhil]

Funny you brought that up. My wife just changed one tonite, saying it was "too cold"

[Grant McLean]

My guess is that this whole compact flouresent thing is a stop gap until
LED technology is more widespread. I think it's going to be necessary to
filter or shade the bulb so that it's a warmer tone. Task lighting is fine when
it's so white, but candlelight, it ain't!

-g

[thejen12]

Have you checked Home Depot? I was there a couple of months ago and they were selling common "wattages" (replacements for 60 watt, 40 watt, 25 watt) in three different colors - one was "daylight", one was "bright" (or something like that), and one was "soft", I think.

The stock person told me that the middle one was best. I picked the "daylight", just to be contrary, ha ha. It actually works great in the bedroom early in the morning because it's the same color as the rising sunlight coming in through the east window! But at any other time (especially after dark), it's quite garish. Went back and got the middle brightness and it seems just like normal lighting. (Then again, I've been using cfls for many years already - the early ones were horrid, but they're much, much better now.)

Keep trying until you find one you like! :cool:

Jenn

[chuckroast]

Different CFL's have different color temperature ratings (measured in Kelvin). For reasonably equivalent to incadescent "warmth", you need a K rating of less than 3000. It's often (but not always) marked on the package.

http://www.schorsch.com/kbase/glossary/cct.html

http://www.healthgoods.com/education/Healthy_Home_Information/Lighting/cfl_basics.htm

[Kevan]

Have you checked Home Depot? I was there a couple of months ago and they were selling common "wattages" (replacements for 60 watt, 40 watt, 25 watt) in three different colors - one was "daylight", one was "bright" (or something like that), and one was "soft", I think.

The stock person told me that the middle one was best. I picked the "daylight", just to be contrary, ha ha. It actually works great in the bedroom early in the morning because it's the same color as the rising sunlight coming in through the east window! But at any other time (especially after dark), it's quite garish. Went back and got the middle brightness and it seems just like normal lighting. (Then again, I've been using cfls for many years already - the early ones were horrid, but they're much, much better now.)

Keep trying until you find one you like! :cool:

Jenn

Bought the same exact bulb. Wife's comment: "Out! Out! Out! Get it out!!!"

[Peter P.]

Check "Home Despot". The one I went to had the compact flourescents arranged with a chart on some packages which indicated what spectrum of light they emitted. The gist of what I read on the packages before I purchased mine is, the bulbs that emit the most "pleasing" or "natural" light run hotter and hence don't save as much energy. If you're willing to tolerate the unnatural lighting the lesser bulbs emit, you'll save more money.

It's worth reading the explanation and the chart on the packages.

Sure seems like a marketing ploy; how coincidental that the bulbs that offer the light we desire also cost the most? When is the cheapest product ever the best?

[csm]

somewhat further off topic but.... has anyone seen or heard about the new audi sports car? it has the first production use of led headlights.

[Ginger]

You know...

I had a bit of a problem with the rampup and the color of the bulbs, but I only switched half the house and still cut my electric bill in half...

I didn't think lightbulbs used *that* much juice, but I guess they do. And yeah, I spent more on mine and got a decent light. I still use incadescent in a few rooms, but most have been changed over.

And remember, when they burn out they do need to be disposed of in the proper manner (ya can't just dump them in the garbage...)

[Dekonick]

You know...

I had a bit of a problem with the rampup and the color of the bulbs, but I only switched half the house and still cut my electric bill in half...

I didn't think lightbulbs used *that* much juice, but I guess they do. And yeah, I spent more on mine and got a decent light. I still use incadescent in a few rooms, but most have been changed over.

And remember, when they burn out they do need to be disposed of in the proper manner (ya can't just dump them in the garbage...)

Why can't they go in the trash? They don't seem to be very recycle friendly...

[csm]

50% less? wow. what other electric appliances do you have?

[scooter]

Is it the Audi R8? See attached pics
Oh, and further off topic....International Engine of the Year Awards

This year's winners

International Engine of the Year 2007 BMW 3-liter Twin-Turbo (335i)

Best New Engine 2007
BMW 3-liter twin-turbo (335i)

Best Fuel Economy
Toyota 1,5-liter Hybrid Synergy Drive (Prius)

Best Performance Engine
BMW 5-liter V10 (M5, M6)

Engine of the Year Below 1 liter
Toyota 1-liter (Aygo, Yaris, Peugeot 107, Citroën C1)

Engine of the Year Between 1,0 and 1,4 liter
Volkswagen 1.4-liter TSI (Golf, Touran, Jetta)

Engine of the Year Between 1,4 and 1,8 liter
BMW-PSA 1.6-liter Turbo (MINI, Peugeot 207)

Engine of the Year Between 1,8 and 2,0 liter
Volkswagen 2-litre Turbo (Golf, Audi A3, A6, SEAT Leon, Skoda Octavia)

Engine of the Year Between 2,0 and 2,5 liter
BMW 2.5-liter (325, 525, X3, Z4)

Engine of the Year Between 2,5 and 3,0 liter
BMW 3-liters Twin-Turbo (335i)

Engine of the Year Between 3,0 and 4,0 liter
Porsche 3.6-liter Turbo (911)

Engine of the Year Above 4,0 liter
BMW 5-liter V10 (M5, M6)
__________________

[jhcakilmer]

Man, you guys are sensitive. My house is 98% florescent, and I think they're great. My wife is a graduate student, and I'm a medical student, so we both do a massive amount of reading, and I don't find any difference. Plus the fact that it cuts down on consumption, and also last so long, is a definite plus.

I think the real test for some of your spouses is a single blind experiment....make sure the bulb has been on, so its warmed up to operating temperature.

[1centaur]

50% less electricity? Apparently you are afraid of the dark and don't own a refrigerator :)

I presume compact fluorescents will get better as they get more widespread. I don't like the time they take to get to full brightness, but I am getting used to their light - I'm happy to get their "green" effect and don't care about the money.

[Grant McLean]

Man, you guys are sensitive. ... and I don't find any difference.


remember, this crowd can debate the benefits of tubulars vs clinchers for days!

-g

[fierte_poser]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compact_fluorescent_lamp

Discussion of color temp, environmental impact, actual energy savings, etc.

[Ginger]

50% less electricity? Apparently you are afraid of the dark and don't own a refrigerator :)
.
Yeah...that's what I thought too...Of course, I looked at it in a month that I didn't have anything odd going on. No home remodeling projects etc.

I *am* forgetful about leaving lights on...this fault has been pointed out to me. I'm getting better (and that might be a reason for the drop as well) and that came in about the same time I switched to the fluorescents...

I haven't run AC at all this year (comparison month the previous year had an AC unit installed), my stove, furnace, and HW heater are natural gas, I *do* have an electric clothes dryer, but I hang quite a bit of my clothing to line dry, I don't use hair dryers or curling irons. My clocks, room lights, computer, monitors, and printer are really the biggest electrical hogs I have. My fridge and freezer are new...so they're a little better with power I guess...and I don't open them very often really.

You should have seen the power usage jump when I plugged in the dehumidifier in the basement to keep my bike parts dry!

[imp25rs]

Why can't they go in the trash? They don't seem to be very recycle friendly...

They contain mercury.

[Tom]

The yellow ones didn't do it for me but mixed up with the blue ones they work very well. The electric bill dropped a lot.

I wait for solar panels to become a touch more efficient and then I'm going to load up the south facing roof of my garage and tell NiMo to go pound salt. Right now I could drop about $15k and become electrically independent plus sell some back in the summer. And that's in grey old frowntown. If it gets cheaper there's my personal tipping point.

The more I think about it, the more I'm blown away. If we can't even do the little things right, how the hell are we going to solve the big problems? Somebody complained that they are more expensive. No kidding, they're just a touch more complicated than an incandescent bulb but you know what? They last longer and run at about a quarter the cost. Look at the system. They're cheaper, not more expensive. We don't like the light color. How are we going to change urban development or transportation methods or buy our food from the next town over not the next continent over when we can't even change a goddamn light bulb?

[Ray]

I *am* forgetful about leaving lights on...this fault has been pointed out to me. I'm getting better (and that might be a reason for the drop as well) and that came in about the same time I switched to the fluorescents...
Related question - I had an electrician tell me that fluorescents are meant to be turned on in the morning and turned off at night and that you don't save energy (and may actually use more) if you turn them on and off every time you enter or leave a room. They use a lot of juice starting up but almost none once up to brightness. Does anyone know if that's true? I know it is for the big fluorescent tubes that you see in office buildings, but is it also with the little 'bulb' replacements? I don't think the guy who told me this specifically knew about the little bulbs and I wondered if they have this same issue. If so, I suspect Ginger's forgetfullness may have a lot to do with her energy savings. Ours have not been so impressive, but then we've been running AC a LOT this summer, not to mention computers, de-humidifiers, etc.

And, btw, I don't mind the quality of the light at all. We have them all over the house except for certain fittings that don't take them.

-Ray

[Too Tall]

True believer here :cool: In about 1984 local power company installed compact flourescents in my little house and the bills nearly halved...that was old technology and the bulbs sucked.

That was than, this is now. We still use compact flourescent in every place possible. If as others say you pay attention to the spectrum and wattage equiv. there is no way you won't be happy. Heck they even have nice bright replacements for old highhat rescessed lights with built in reflectors...those puppies are really effective. I dig em.

[Kines]

You don't like the "cold quality" of the light compared to incandescent?!?!? JFC, people, you're going to have to get over little things like that if you care to make a difference in the world. Sure, we aren't going to save the planet by just switching to CFL's, but we're ruining the planet with the attitude that making sacrifices and changes is for other people to do so that you can continue to enjoy your life without making any such sacrifices.

Whew. I kinda surprised myself with that little rant.

And, on balance, I do worry a bit about the mercury. I eat too much sushi already. Now it's in my light bulbs.



KN

[davep]

I have changed about 20 bulbs in my house to CF. I have used the ones from Home Depot in various color temps. I personally like the "daylight" ones - good, white light. East to read by. My wife, however, finds them cold and harsh, but the "soft, white" is very close to incandescent yellow.

Another advantage, especially in an air conditioning climate, is that less heat is produced. In our kitchen we have three hi-hats right over the kitchen counter. 80 watt incancdescents put out so much heat that was uncomfortable to sit there, and lesser wattages were to dim to read by. You can also get ones that are dimmable, which is agreat advance.

Only negative -they are too big for many lamps.

[William]

My guess is that this whole compact flouresent thing is a stop gap until
LED technology is more widespread. I think it's going to be necessary to
filter or shade the bulb so that it's a warmer tone. Task lighting is fine when
it's so white, but candlelight, it ain't!

-g


Very true. I'll side with Grant on this one. Right now one of the last real hurdles in getting more LED's into the mainstream residential lighting market has been getting better and brighter white light. Up until recently "white" LED's put off more of a white/blue-ish light. There have been recent break throughs though and a number of lighting mfr's are already developing and selling LED fixtures for the home. They use a lot less energy, run much cooler, and last 3-4 times longer then current compact fluorescents.

I expect them to eventually replace Edison type bulbs and seriously cut into fluorescents.

http://ledsmagazine.com/news/4/8/3

If the topic interests you, check out LED's Magazine.





William

[rpm]

Why can't they go in the trash? They don't seem to be very recycle friendly...

They contain small amounts of mercury. I have held off on them, because I have read that if you drop and break one, you would have some mercury contamination that might even require bringing in some decontamination specialists. Some kid dropped an old mercury thermometer at a school here, and the whole school had to be evacuated and cleaned up.

[JohnS]

I remember as a kid we intentionally broke thermometers to play with the mercury. It was cool. What did we know? Besides, I turned out normal, didn't I? :confused:

[Kines]

When I was a kid we dropped one of those mercury thermometers, and my brother and I thought it was great fun to let the mercury balls roll around in our hands. I think I'm OK and my kids seem to be doing well. Anyone ever heard of "mad as a hatter?"

[3chordwonder]

"You don't like the "cold quality" of the light compared to incandescent?!?!? JFC, people, you're going to have to get over little things like that if you care to make a difference in the world. Sure, we aren't going to save the planet by just switching to CFL's, but we're ruining the planet with the attitude that making sacrifices and changes is for other people to do so that you can continue to enjoy your life without making any such sacrifices."

- dude, calm down.

So what if a lot of people hate the cold light bulb versions and are looking for an alternative... it doesn't really say much about a persons lifestyle in toto, and to deduce that the end of the world is nigh because we don't care is probably a bit too full-on. I actually thought the reverse, that it was cool that everybody in this thread's obviously trying.

For instance, while you claim you're eating too much sushi and thereby contributing to overfishing, I'm spending extra time and money in order to eat vegetarian & organic, don't own a microwave, ride instead of drive for daily errands, etc blah blah... just saying, don't start stressing that we're all going to hell in a handbasket just because of wanting a low energy alternative to that *ugly* light. I'm sure most people are doing their bit.

[marle]

I bet a single one of your bike commutes saves more CO2 in a year than swapping out your bulbs.

[Kevan]

right on!

[Karin Kirk]

We've been using CFLs since they first came out and I concur that they've improved a ton. There are only a few lights in our house that don't use them.

From what I understand, the amount of mercury is very small. I called the local authorities about disposal and they said that for residential use you can just throw it in the trash, but no doubt the rules are different in different places.

I have heard one comparison that the amount of mercury in the bulb is less than the amount of mercury that would be emitted into the air if you used coal-generated electricity to burn an incandescent light bulb instead of a CFL.

The notion that you save energy by leaving a fluorescent light burning instead of turning it on and off is not true. I did the math myself awhile back, and then Mythbusters measured it and got the same result. Mythbusters found that you'll save energy turning the light off even if you're just leaving the room for one minute or less. Same was true for the long tube bulbs.

About price, the CFL is much cheaper in the long run because they last 10 times longer and of course you save electricity. Our energy company sends out coupons all the time so you can save a couple of bucks per bulb.

I rode a 40kTT last night so I'm too tired to rant, but I do agree that if we aren't willing adapt to a slightly different shade of light, then we may be pretty hopeless in terms of solving the larger, looming issues of our energy consumption.

But I am glad to see that folks here take this seriously - that is indeed a step in the right direction.

[Kines]

"You don't like the "cold quality" of the light compared to incandescent?!?!? JFC, people, you're going to have to get over little things like that if you care to make a difference in the world. Sure, we aren't going to save the planet by just switching to CFL's, but we're ruining the planet with the attitude that making sacrifices and changes is for other people to do so that you can continue to enjoy your life without making any such sacrifices."

- dude, calm down.

So what if a lot of people hate the cold light bulb versions and are looking for an alternative... it doesn't really say much about a persons lifestyle in toto, and to deduce that the end of the world is nigh because we don't care is probably a bit too full-on. I actually thought the reverse, that it was cool that everybody in this thread's obviously trying.

For instance, while you claim you're eating too much sushi and thereby contributing to overfishing, I'm spending extra time and money in order to eat vegetarian & organic, don't own a microwave, ride instead of drive for daily errands, etc blah blah... just saying, don't start stressing that we're all going to hell in a handbasket just because of wanting a low energy alternative to that *ugly* light. I'm sure most people are doing their bit.


Dude, calm down.

KN

[cpg]

They contain small amounts of mercury. I have held off on them, because I have read that if you drop and break one, you would have some mercury contamination that might even require bringing in some decontamination specialists. Some kid dropped an old mercury thermometer at a school here, and the whole school had to be evacuated and cleaned up.


This is true and that scares me a bit too but I'm told there's more mercury in a can of tuna than in one of those bulbs. So if you break one you do have a mercury spill but it's nothing like on the level of a broken thermometer. We have about half of our house on them. I don't mind the light they throw buy my wife does a bit.

Curt

[CNY rider]

I remember a mercury thermometer breaking when we were in junior high.............we all played with the magical little beads, rolling them around.
Nobody thought much of it.
Certainly didn't call out a HazMat unit.

And look how good we turned out! :D

[Karin Kirk]

I bet a single one of your bike commutes saves more CO2 in a year than swapping out your bulbs.

Yes, exactly! However I'm not sure how much work you'd get done that day after your 700 mile commute!

The fine print:
This assumes you swapped out 5 light bulbs (going from 100W to 20W) that burn 3 hours/day, and the car that you would have driven gets 27 mpg.

[marle]

If Kevan replaces an SUV (burning 3 gallons) with his bike on his commute to work, he could save enough co2 in a day to burn a nice warm bulb.

One gallon of gas is worth 19.564 pounds of CO2 http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/1605/coefficients.html

By swapping a bulb, Kevan could save 47 watts per hour. Assuming Kevan runs the bulbs 1000 hours per year, he would save 47 kwh. One kwh is worth 1.24 pounds of Co2 - www.wncgbc.org/pdf/offset/webcalcs.pdf

So Kevan could save 58.28 pounds of co2 per year per bulb.

[Kevan]

If Kevan replaces an SUV (burning 3 gallons) with his bike on his commute to work, he could save enough co2 in a day to burn a nice warm bulb.

One gallon of gas is worth 19.564 pounds of CO2 http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/1605/coefficients.html

By swapping a bulb, Kevan could save 47 watts per hour. Assuming Kevan runs the bulbs 1000 hours per year, he would save 47 kwh. One kwh is worth 1.24 pounds of Co2 - www.wncgbc.org/pdf/offset/webcalcs.pdf

So Kevan could save 58.28 pounds of co2 per year per bulb.

I'll be riding my bike everyday to work, even the snow days of February.

[sspielman]

I have alot of faith in capitalism. As energy becomes more expensive, entrepreneurs will begin offering more cost effective solutions to meeting our needs. Clearly, the current generation of fluourescent light fixtures meet that need for some, but are unacceptable to others. For those, plenty of electricity is still available at a price to use whatever type of bulb they find most satisfactory. As the price continues to climb, they may have to rethink that decision or take advantage of any new technologies that develop. Capitalism will also solve our energy supply problem...At the current time, approximately 80% of the world's oil supply is sourced from communist/ socialist economies. Until the price reaches a point that Capitalist economies find it profitable to produce more, they will continue to meet the demands with all of the efficiency that the Soviet Union displayed in producing shoes.....

[39cross]

I remember as a kid we intentionally broke thermometers to play with the mercury. It was cool. What did we know? Besides, I turned out normal, didn't I? :confused:JohnS, I think we're gonna have to do an analysis of your 2,066 posts and see if there is any regression over time! I think I remember playing with mercury in chem class in jr. hs, but maybe the reason I can't remember is that we played with mercury...

But on CFL's, we've had a few generations of them in the house over time, they have improved a lot. My wife objected to the earlier versions (seems like a common theme here), but she's cool with the current incarnation. I tend to buy the brightest wattage equivalents I can find. The only downside it that they still don't work in all lamps, but even that's improved a lot.

[JohnS]

JohnS, I think we're gonna have to do an analysis of your 2,066 posts and see if there is any regression over time!.
If the pros couldn't figure me out, you don't stand a chance! :)
PS-Catholic school nuns did more damage to me than any mercury ever did!

[Kines]

If the pros couldn't figure me out, you don't stand a chance! :)
PS-Catholic school nuns did more damage to me than any mercury ever did!
At least it wasn't the priests.

Sorry. Couldn't resist that one.

KN

[JohnS]

At least it wasn't the priests.

Sorry. Couldn't resist that one.

KNNaw, I was Byzantine (Ukrainian) Rite Catholic. The priests were married, what a concept!?!?

[soulspinner]

Ive adjusted to them. It takes time.... :cool:

[Big Dan]

I like the "daylight" ones. Down here in So.Fla, the less warm the better.

:rolleyes:

[Kines]

Ive adjusted to them. It takes time.... :cool:
The priests?!?!

OK I'll be getting my coat now....

later
KN

[dawgie]

CFLs are a no-brainer. They conserve energy, reduce air pollution and save you money. What is not to like about that? CFLs have improved immensely the past few years and costs have come down a lot. If you buy them in a multipack at Walmart or Home Depot, they only cost a couple bucks per bulb at most.

If you don't like the color/warmth of the light, look for one with a different color rating. Here's all the info you need to know at the Energy Star web site:

http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=cfls.pr_cfls

Some simple facts:
-- Most CFLs use about 25% as much energy as a standard lightbulb.
-- They generally last 10 times longer than standard bulbs.
-- They produce 75% less heat compared to standard bulbs, reducing your air conditioning costs.
-- Each bulb saves you about $30 in energy costs over the life of the bulb.

Regarding mercury, the amount of mercury in CFLs is much less than the amount of mercury emitted to generate the power used by standard lightbulbs. The mercury coming out of power plants gets into streams and lakes where it can cause harm. The mercury in a CFL should not cause any problems if properly disposed. For disposal options, check with your local solid waste agency. However, EPA says it's OK to dispose in your trash if sealed in a ziplock bag. Most trash these days ends up in sealed landfills where any mercury would be largely contained.

[gasman]

Related question - I had an electrician tell me that fluorescents are meant to be turned on in the morning and turned off at night and that you don't save energy (and may actually use more) if you turn them on and off every time you enter or leave a room. They use a lot of juice starting up but almost none once up to brightness. Does anyone know if that's true? I know it is for the big fluorescent tubes that you see in office buildings, but is it also with the little 'bulb' replacements? I don't think the guy who told me this specifically knew about the little bulbs and I wondered if they have this same issue. If so, I suspect Ginger's forgetfullness may have a lot to do with her energy savings.

-Ray


This is an old wives tale as far as I know and may have been true years ago ,not now. The amount of energy with the newer ballasts is minimal compared to burning a bulb all day. Newer "green" office buildings have motion sensors so that lights will come on in a room only if there is movement. You can sit and read in one of these rooms and the lights will eventually turn off-very cool.

[vaxn8r]

This is an old wives tale as far as I know and may have been true years ago ,not now. The amount of energy with the newer ballasts is minimal compared to burning a bulb all day. Newer "green" office buildings have motion sensors so that lights will come on in a room only if there is movement. You can sit and read in one of these rooms and the lights will eventually turn off-very cool.
Gasman knows all.


Seriously.

[DRZRM]

I don't know if this is national or just in MA, but Costco has an instant rebate which meant that my last 8 pack of 60 watt replacement CFL bulbs cost me about $2 out of packet. There was like a $10 rebate on the $12 pack, the reflective CFL floods I use in the kitchen were a bit more, but the same rebate brought the price down around a buck a bulb. A heck of a deal. My only complaint is that they don't have the ones that can dim (in fact I only learned about dimmable CFLs after reading this thread) and a lot of our rooms are on dimmers. I guess it's time to order some of those now.

Not for nothing, I'm glad people are thinking about this (though thinking alone doesn't do much) and I'm even gladder that so many of us commute and pollute less, but I pretty much agree with 3chordwonder. Of course we all have the right to whatever "light quality" we want, just like I have to right to buy a Hummer for my commute to work...it just seems a bit shortsighted.

[Ray]

This is an old wives tale as far as I know and may have been true years ago ,not now. The amount of energy with the newer ballasts is minimal compared to burning a bulb all day.
This is very cool - now I can go back to yelling at everyone in my family about turning the damn lights off when they leave a room!

Seriously, thanks to you and Karin and Vax for clearing this up for me. I actually had an electrician (who was installing a couple of ceiling fans in our new place) tell me that. I'll have to call him up and tell him he's full of it.

-Ray

[goonster]

I'll have to call him up and tell him he's full of it.


Mythbusters did a show (http://kwc.org/mythbusters/2006/12/episode_69_22000_foot_fall_lig.html) on this, so here's some ammo for that talk with the electrician.

The break-even time for a fluorescent tube was 23 seconds, and for a CFL it was 0.015 seconds.