What the ffft?

[BHL]

I've been riding lots of hills lately and thinking about breathing etc. I was remembering back to Biology something-0-something and how forcing air out can help breathing efficiency (also sparked by recent thread). I've always found it hard to push air out for the whole exhale-doing this usually just made me more tired.
The other day, though, I tried adding just a little 'ffft' at the very end of each exhale (when I was huffing and puffing). Not only did this add interesting rythms to breathing, but it forced a strong inhale. It feels like I'm getting much bigger breaths when I do this and I seem to be able to climb and crank longer and stronger.
Does this work for anyone else?

Freight-training along - Ben

[cadence90]

Between this and Sandy's thread I might have to get me a Barloworld jersey, when I learn how to say "ffft" in Colombian.... :banana:

[KJMUNC]

Yep, it seems to work for me, especially when I'm overweight and out of shape!

Back when I spent my free time doing a lot of climbing, I was always told to exhale in short forceful breaths when at altitude, as it helped expel more CO2 from the lungs and allowed for deeper breathing of O2. If absolutely works when you're at high altitude, and I have done the same when climbing on a bike and it seems to help too. Even if it's more mental, it still makes me feel less slow and miserable on the climbs!

[David Kirk]

Ahhhhhhhhh! Pressure breathing.

It's cool because it pressurizes the air in the lungs allowing for more oxygen uptake and it helps create a vacuum to draw in the next breath. Good stuff all round.

Dave

[Birddog]

My percentages may be off, but IIRC, on any given breath cycle, humans only exhale about 60% of the spent gases. When you "pressure breathe" or in any way try to make a more complete exhale, you are pushing out more of the waste (CO2) and making room for more oxygen to do it's thing. You don't have to practice inhaling, it happens all by itself.

The problem as I see it, is that if every Cat 4,5, and Master Geezer starts doing this, then indirectly, we are going to be leading to more Polar Bears stranded on ice sheets, receding glaciers, rising coastal waters, and general weather havoc. So don't blab about it on the internet anymore, OK? Bicyclists take enough sheeite already. This will be just another excuse not to build bike lanes.

Birddog

[Climb01742]

would someone kindly explain "pressure breathing" more fully? thank you!!

[Avispa]

Between this and Sandy's thread I might have to get me a Barloworld jersey, when I learn how to say "ffft" in Colombian....

Yeah, I tried this "ffft" thing today and I did learnt to say that in Colombian: Coñooo!!! (pronounced ko' ny oo') as in Campagnolo! :D

A.

[Grant McLean]

When you "pressure breathe" or in any way try to make a more complete exhale, you are pushing out more of the waste (CO2) and making room for more oxygen to do it's thing.


It seems that the heart's abilty to pump enough blood is a greater limit
than the lungs ability to taken in enough oxygen.

info here:


http://home.hia.no/~stephens/vo2max.htm

In the well-trained, oxygen delivery limits VO2 max

Several experiments of different types support the concept that, in trained individuals, it is oxygen delivery, not oxygen utilization that limits VO2 max. By performing exercise with one leg and directly measuring muscle oxygen consumption of a small mass of muscle (using arterial catheterisation) it has been shown that the capacity of skeletal muscle to use oxygen exceeds the heart's capacity for delivery. Thus although the average male has about 30 to 35 kg of muscle, only a portion of this muscle can be well perfused with blood at any one time. The heart can’t deliver a high blood flow to all skeletal muscle, and still maintain adequate blood pressure. This limitation is analogous to the water pressure in your house. If you turn all the faucets on while trying to take a shower, the shower pressure will be inadequate because there is not enough driving pressure. Without getting in to deep on the hemodynamics, it seems that blood pressure is a centrally controlled variable; the body will not “open the valves” to more muscle than can be perfused without compromising central pressure, and blood flow to the brain. The bigger the pumping capacity of the heart, the more muscle can be perfused while maintaining all-important blood pressure.


As further evidence for a delivery limitation, long-term endurance training can result in a 300% increase in muscle oxidative capacity, but only about a 15 to 25% increase in VO2 max. VO2 max can be altered artificially by changing the oxygen concentration in the air. VO2 max also increases in previously untrained subjects before a change in skeletal muscle aerobic capacity occurs. All of these observations demonstrate that VO2 max can be dissociated from skeletal muscle characteristics.
Stroke volume, in contrast, is linearly related to VO2 max. Training results in an increase in stroke volume and therefore, an increase in maximal cardiac output. Greater capacity for oxygen delivery is the result. More muscle can be supplied with oxygen simultaneously while still maintaining necessary blood pressure levels.

g

[Birddog]

would someone kindly explain "pressure breathing" more fully? thank you!!

Google it for more info, but it was explained to me long ago, that it is simply focusing more on the exhale than the inhale to get rid of more CO2 that is taking up space. All I can say is that it works for me. Look up "Ayurvedic breathing", that is from a school of Yoga.

As to Grant's post, I think it is medically sound as it is used to treat altitude sickness and other maladies. As I understand it, we can absorb more oxygen if it's there. I'm not even close to being a scientist or MD though, so take my info for what it's worth.

PS, whenever I go to altitude, which is frequent, I always concentrate and tell my traveling companions (if there are any) to concentrate on the exhale. It is real easy to start panting at altitude and to do so is very counterproductive and leads to hyperventilation. Another easy way to train for this is to breath in through the nose and concentrate on a full exhale through the mouth and purse the lips a little too. It's best to start this in the Spring as you get into shape.

Birddog

[swoop]

this is absolutely a legit technique and does work. there are a few different tricks in terms of forcing air in and out and modulating your breathing when you're under pressure.. you can even alter your pain threshold a little bit by playing with this....

i see a lot of folks that kind of suffocate themselves and then wonder why they are cracking.... shallow breathing is your enemy.

[Grant McLean]

As to Grant's post, I think it is medically sound as it is used to treat altitude sickness and other maladies. As I understand it, we can absorb more oxygen if it's there. I'm not even close to being a scientist or MD though, so take my info for what it's worth.

Birddog

Yes, the article posted seems to differentiate between "trained" and "untrained"
persons. There is likely a crossover point at which an individuals personal
fitness and genetic make up determines where the 'bottle neck' happens.
If you are out of shape, but have a good heart, your muscles may not
be able to use the oxygen on hand. If you're well trained, your heart at
max rate may still not be able to provide enough oxygen to the muscles.

I guess both those factors assume you're physically breathing hard enough.
If you're used to shallow breathing all the time, training your breathing
patterns should be part of the program.

g

[Andreas]

i see a lot of folks that kind of suffocate themselves and then wonder why they are cracking.... shallow breathing is your enemy.

Swoop is once again right on.

Rapid shallow breathing actually leads to V/Q mismatch and atelectasis with subsequent drop in O2 Sats. Less oxygen is delivered to the tissues, less can be consumed. You convert to anaerobic metabolism (which will make you hit "the wall") or you have to slow down.

There are various techniques that will prevent the above, ffft is just one of them. If you had been breathing shallow, ffft will recruit alveoli (gas exchange bubbles) by mildly increasing intraalveolar pressure (PEEP). Use it from the start and you won't get into trouble.

It works, I use as mentioned before also for climbing rhythm purposes as well.
Keeping track of respiratory rate and by proxy of VO2 is for me a way better training tool than a HRM. Used one from '85 on for many years, just to find out that counting my breathing rate works better. :D

[swoop]

i'll even share this little trick.. all i am focused on when i'm on my limit.. is breathing. it doesn't matter how much pain i'm in or how many watts i put out (or in my case don't put out).. all i think about is getting air in.


and when i'm tucked in (like in a break) i'm trying to load up on oxygen.. the more you take in the faster you recover... and the pain is secondary because the oxygen is what powers the motor. the question isn't, can i go harder, its can i breathe deeper? same goes for taking a long hard pull.... its the breathing that powers the thing and so when i feel i'm loading up, i relax and i focus on breathing a deep as i can.

this means you have to be able to relax when youre in the deepest amount of pain... and that you have to be able to be in a position in the bike where you can take air in...


atmo

[Birddog]

I often catch myself doing this in a four count rhythm. That is, one full exhale, then three normal breaths followed by a deep exhale. I'm not sure when and how this pattern developed or if it good, bad, or indifferent. I've speculated that it might be a holdover from my days (long ago) as a swimmer. When I'm doing a serious climb, I tend to do it on every breath.

Birddog

[fierte_poser]

I've never tried this... I have dabbled in switch-side breathing and I find it very useful.

[Avispa]

I have noticed that my HR is lower when I take short breaths and faster when I take long deep breaths. Is there an explanation to this?

Thanks,

A!