OT: the bridge and really weird values in this country..

[eddief]

how does a country get it together? i am not saying we should not spend money on defense, etc., but what is in the way of taking care of basics? health care is a complicated issue with crazy sorts of complexity and interests. But unsafe bridges is like the easiest no brainer. Why isn't it a no brainer.

Riddle me that Batman.
Viva viagra!

[steelrider]

Word up, while we spend billions on rebuilding countries that we have destroyed, the infrastructure here in the homeland is going to hell in a handbasket.

[93legendti]

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=370197&postcount=37

[cadence90]

I'm guessing Halliburton will get right on that repair job, just as soon as they finish with Iraq and New Orleans.
Unless there are more pressing "concerns" elsewhere first, of course....

[Ray]

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=370197&postcount=37
That explains some of the technical rationale for the inertia, but the bottom line is UNTIL bridges start falling into rivers on a semi-frequent basis, infrastructure is seen as a long term issue by politicians trolling for short term votes. If they have to allocate money for bridge repairs, which nobody notices (except when they fail) or for this year's school lunch program or subsidy for something that people are calling for NOW or for the ever-popular tax-cut, they go in the direction of the votes. You can blame them if it makes you feel better. Or you can blame us, because what they do works in terms of getting us to vote for them. We're an instant-gratification, short term issue, society and our politicians reflect us on that.

-Ray

[93legendti]

That explains some of the technical rationale for the inertia, but the bottom line is UNTIL bridges start falling into rivers on a semi-frequent basis, infrastructure is seen as a long term issue by politicians trolling for short term votes. If they have to allocate money for bridge repairs, which nobody notices (except when they fail) or for this year's school lunch program or subsidy for something that people are calling for NOW or for the ever-popular tax-cut, they go in the direction of the votes. You can blame them if it makes you feel better. Or you can blame us, because what they do works in terms of getting us to vote for them. We're an instant-gratification, short term issue, society and our politicians reflect us on that.

-Ray

Yes. Generally, bridges are an issue for the state government. In Michigan, MDOT inspects and repairs our bridges, not the Feds.

http://www.woodtv.com/global/story.asp?s=6879074

[Peter B]

According to one radio report I heard this evening it would cost the "staggering" amount of $9.4 billion a year (http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/08/02/following-the-minneapolis-bridge-collapse/?hp) for the next 20 years to bring all of the country's "structurally deficient" bridges up to standards. For perspective, since 9/11 we have been spending at the rate of about $7 billion a month (http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/letters/articles/2006/10/02/tallying_iraq_wars_monetary_cost/) in Iraq and Afganistan.

[goonster]

A question:

Why weren't any of us clamoring for increased spending on bridges yesterday morning?

[Ginger]

Why are you surprised? "They" pay the same attention to the bridges as they do to the uneducated, the illiterate, and the desperately poor in this country. If they don't pay attention to human issues, why would they pay attention to infrastructure issues?

"They" need a few more steam pipes to blow up in NYC (notice they've explained that one away and it faded from the conscious of the people? OH, it's a *technical* issue...that's ok...)

Of course, at some point;

"They" is "We."


Dave. Some of us were.

[Louis]

Fixing bridges does not allow US oil companies to get their hands on the world's third largest petroleum reserves...

[eddief]

when cars get crushed under broken bridges, well you know where I'm going with that one.

[Ginger]

when cars get crushed under broken bridges, well you know where I'm going with that one.


Same argument is used for why Michigan roads are kept so crappy even though they're under constant construction.

We're the US home of the Auto Industry (even though they have plants all over the country, everybody has an office in the D)


But you're right. As a country we avoid the costs of repairing/rebuilding infrastructure. Of course...some could argue that unlike Europe and Asia, we aren't acclimated to maintaining infrastructure because ours hasn't been around long enough to fail on a massive scale.

now it has.

[cadence90]

According to one radio report I heard this evening it would cost the "staggering" amount of $9.4 billion a year (http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/08/02/following-the-minneapolis-bridge-collapse/?hp) for the next 20 years to bring all of the country's "structurally deficient" bridges up to standards. For perspective, since 9/11 we have been spending at the rate of about $7 billion a month (http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/letters/articles/2006/10/02/tallying_iraq_wars_monetary_cost/) in Iraq and Afganistan.
That is incredible.
This post and the World Clock thing are really depressing.

[Climb01742]

i don't agree that "they" and "we" are the same. far from it.

our interests aren't the same. "we" are 300+ million. "they" are 100 senators, 400+ representatives, 1 semi-president and darth cheney.

broadly speaking, "we" have big, long-term, complicated needs: health care, educating our children, retirement, a safe place to live, a good job, a growing economy, civil rights, economic opportunity. "they" have one single need: get re-elected, which means raising money, which means kissing the @ss of a few deeped pocketed special interests, and toeing the party line of whichever party they're in so they can feed at the trough of the DNC or the RNC.

that, my friends, in a nut shell, is why our politics are f*ck'd and will stay f*ck'd. our interests and their interests simply don't meet. as a nation, we need a government that actually governs, that tries to tackle complex, long-term issues (like aging infrastructure). instead, we have a government that is in prepetual re-election, fundraising and power-acquisition mode.

both democrats and republicans are guilty as sin but here in a spine-tingling example: carl rove's single goal has been to create a permanent republican majority...not to permanently solve even one real problem americans face, but to permanently solve "the" problem republicans (and democrats) have: how do "they" stay in office, stay in power, and stay rolling in lobbyist's money.

sadly, the one "politician" i've heard lately who makes true sense is kinky friedman. the rest, blue and red, are just decrees of the same old shiite.

[BdaGhisallo]

Chalk it up to government management. Governments, and their attendant bureaucracies have little incentive to do things properly because there is no or little penalty for failure. If you were to give a concession out for every major bridge and allow the concession holder to charge a toll, and only allow them to maintain that concession based upon passing inspections, you can bet that the majority of those bridges would be in better shape than they are now. Not all of them, mind you, since there are crooks out there, but a far higher number would be in good shape than there are now.

Government has never shown itself to be able to manage anything or provide any service or good in a better manner than the market. The incentives are simply not there.

Despite this bridge being a state responsibility, watch how this gets turned into the fault of the Bush administration and the Federal Govt.

And 9.4 bio per year is not a lot of money for the Federal Govt. Its annual budget is in the trillions. Maybe we could end farm and other types of subsidies handed out to business, thereby freeing up the cash to make the repairs, and correcting some of inefficiences in the markets that the government introduces through its damaging actions.

[1centaur]

While I generally agree with Climb that politicians are power whores rather than public servants, I have to say it's unfair to use Rove as an example. He is a political consultant, not a politician. Even if politicians were public servants and had true moral compasses (I happen to believe Republicans and Democrats in Washington are the same essentially unprincipled people working different fan bases), they would need political strategists because if they are not in power they cannot pass their agenda, and if said agenda is in fact morally superior (as both sides claim) then they should be doing what they can to achieve it.

I think politicians have traditionally viewed aging infrastructure as an issue that can get votes from the people pouring the concrete and that makes it expensive per vote. The people who would benefit from that work ALWAYS claim the need to fix it and politicians assume they are talking their own book. If we and they could count on independent neutral experts to evaluate infrastructure and neutral people to work out the ROI then we might get more such spending, but anybody voted into or appointed to such a role would likely have an axe to grind. The press usually views infrastructure spending as pork barrel politics, though of course we won't be hearing that from them now (for a while).

[Sandy]

How about the infrastructure below the ground? You can't even see that. Gas, fuel, water,...pipes that are deteriorating and will potentially cause serious problems. Undoutedly. One would probably shudder at the condition of such in major older cities. We will ultimately see major natural gas explosions......


Sandy

[William]

+100

You are correct Climb. The thing that always gets me is that the politician is supposed to work for us and represent and push issues for the majority of their constituents. Yet you constantly have politicians going against what their constituents want and toeing party lines or there own personal intrests. Today most Americans just roll their eyes, shrug their shoulders and go with it. What's needed? Americans need to get back to their roots. Do what our forefathers would do when they didn't like what a politician was doing...come together, tar and feather them and run them out of town on a rail. I'm sort of kidding, but then again, I'm not. Over time, the political parties have insulated themselves and made it harder and harder to remove them from office if we don't like the job they're doing. Sure, we can vote them out. But in most cases they are just replaced with another pawn of the party.

As always, we get to vote for the lesser of two weasels.

Deep down, we know what needs to be done. But now days most people don't have the balls to do it.


William

[Ray]

I've worked around politicians (usually small time, but some big ones) for a lot of my professional life and I think you have it wrong. William, you state, "Deep down, we know what needs to be done. But now days most people don't have the balls to do it." The problem is, there are about 300 million of us and we each 'know' what has to be done, except we each have a slightly different version of what needs to be done that we KNOW. Politicians have to reconcile all of that into solutions that work for the most people to the highest degree. Or, put another way, piss off the fewest people and to the least extent possible. If you think that's easy or that there are answers that we can actually agree on as a country, you're living in a dream.

Yeah, every now and then, something happens that makes our path RELATIVELY clear. 9/11 was one of those and we even managed to screw THAT one up. But that's because enough of us BELIEVED the BS they were spouting about Iraq and we kept them in office and let 'em do it. Looks like a bunch of idiots to me too, but we (collectively) did it. If a few more bridges and steam pipes blow, we'll start seeing some money go into infrastructure. But if its not on the front pages, it won't happen. We're starting to care about foriegn oil and global warming, but not enough to really change our ways, to drive less, to fly less, to buy food grown closer to home, live closer to work, etc, etc, etc. We want the govt. to solve those problems and they're complicit, but we've caused them and perpetuate them with our lifestyle decisions. Every damn one of us, to one extent or another. And once the problem gets bad enough, we WILL address it and the politicians will respond. And hopefully it won't be too late.

Every now and then a politician comes along and talks about things like infrastructure and the environment and solving long term problems but accepting the expenses that it's gonna take. Guess what. They NEVER get elected. That's us, folks.

-Ray

[William]

I've worked around politicians (usually small time, but some big ones) for a lot of my professional life and I think you have it wrong. William, you state, "Deep down, we know what needs to be done. But now days most people don't have the balls to do it." The problem is, there are about 300 million of us and we each 'know' what has to be done, except we each have a slightly different version of what needs to be done that we KNOW. Politicians have to reconcile all of that into solutions that work for the most people to the highest degree. Or, put another way, piss off the fewest people and to the least extent possible. If you think that's easy or that there are answers that we can actually agree on as a country, you're living in a dream.

Yeah, every now and then, something happens that makes our path RELATIVELY clear. 9/11 was one of those and we even managed to screw THAT one up. But that's because enough of us BELIEVED the BS they were spouting about Iraq and we kept them in office and let 'em do it. Looks like a bunch of idiots to me too, but we (collectively) did it. If a few more bridges and steam pipes blow, we'll start seeing some money go into infrastructure. But if its not on the front pages, it won't happen. We're starting to care about foriegn oil and global warming, but not enough to really change our ways, to drive less, to fly less, to buy food grown closer to home, live closer to work, etc, etc, etc. We want the govt. to solve those problems and they're complicit, but we've caused them and perpetuate them with our lifestyle decisions. Every damn one of us, to one extent or another. And once the problem gets bad enough, we WILL address it and the politicians will respond. And hopefully it won't be too late.

Every now and then a politician comes along and talks about things like infrastructure and the environment and solving long term problems but accepting the expenses that it's gonna take. Guess what. They NEVER get elected. That's us, folks.
-Ray

That goes to my point. Most people don't have the balls to vote for these folks. For example: A Dem is leading toward the Green canidate because they feel that they really want the change to someone who really seems like they will address those issues. But, they can't bring themselves to do it because they are afraid they will be a part of splitting the Dem votes and allow the Republican to win. I've heard that excuse many times over.


William

[Ray]

For example: A Dem is leading toward the Green canidate because they feel that they really want the change to someone who really seems like they will address those issues. But, they can't bring themselves to do it because they are afraid they will be a part of splitting the Dem votes and allow the Republican to win. I've heard that excuse many times over.

It's a very real concern though. If just a few fricking HUNDRED fewer voters had pulled the lever for Nader in Florida in 2000 we wouldn't be in the mess we're in today. We might be in an equally bad mess, but it wouldn't be this one. A lot of folks will disagree, but I'd MUCH rather be where I think we'd be in the year 2007 if Gore had become president in 2000. But that's just me.

-Ray

[William]

It's a very real concern though. If just a few fricking HUNDRED fewer voters had pulled the lever for Nader in Florida in 2000 we wouldn't be in the mess we're in today. We might be in an equally bad mess, but it wouldn't be this one. A lot of folks will disagree, but I'd MUCH rather be where I think we'd be in the year 2007 if Gore had become president in 2000. But that's just me.

-Ray

Very true. The issue is not as black and white as it may seem. Though I still like the tar and feather riding on a rail thing. ;)



William

[keno]

It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried.
Sir Winston Churchill
British politician (1874 - 1965)

William, surprised you did not mention The Who and "Won't Get Fooled Again", or did I miss it?

Another, though personal, thought. I am endlessly fascinated by the recourse that some human beings have to placing blame when bad events occur (which are inevitable until such a thing as perfection, whatever that might be, is a law, like gravity, that governs the affairs of the world). Unfortunate things do happen, and often without warning, yet some actually think that all of these things should never happen or could be prevented. I wonder, but not for long, if such folks ever consider all of the bads things that have not happened at least to appreciate that there is a balancing act going on, no matter how fidgety.

And then there is tobacco, a product that causes horrible consequences to its users and to those of us who don't in the form of personal grief, higher insurance costs, and suffering the effects of those who smoke in our presence. Now there is something that is not a covert danger, yet the great balancing act keeps it alive and "healthy".

Ginger, when you mention education comes to mind teachers' unions, the worst enemy to education. Ironic, ain't it?

keno

[dancinkozmo]

It's a very real concern though. If just a few fricking HUNDRED fewer voters had pulled the lever for Nader in Florida in 2000 we wouldn't be in the mess we're in today. We might be in an equally bad mess, but it wouldn't be this one. A lot of folks will disagree, but I'd MUCH rather be where I think we'd be in the year 2007 if Gore had become president in 2000. But that's just me.

-Ray

In 2000 , With a parliamentary system of government , Gore and Nader could have created a coalition and formed the new government....

[Ray]

In 2000 , With a parliamentary system of government , Gore and Nader could have created a coalition and formed the new government....
OK, but that's a slightly bigger leap from where we are today than changing a few hundred votes in Florida.

-Ray

[LesMiner]

20 years ago funding was provided at the federal level to rebuild bridges. As I recall, every time I drove from Minneapolis to Chicago a bridge on either 90 or 94 was being replaced. The entire bridge was removed and built up from scratch. So it is not like nothing has been done in the past. At that time people had the same concern then as now about the crumbling interstate road system. Expanding is easy but funding maintainance is not.

The rub in Minnesota is that Jim Oberstar Chairman of the House Transportation Committee came to the Minnesota legislature and said that if they increased road construction funding the state would then get several 100 million in federal dollars. The Democrats tried to raise the gasoline tax from 20 cents to 25. The Republicans voted it down and Governor Pawlenty said he would veto any tax increase of any kind. In essence the Minnesota Republicans decided additional road maintainance, repair and new construction was not necessary.

Also notice that in the aftermath of the 35W bridge diaster Bush did not wait 2 weeks to acknowledge he should at least say something. Oh that's right he was not on vacation!

[saab2000]

Easy to blame the politicians, but we voted for them.

It is hard to beat a politician who campaigns against the 'Tax and Spend' liberals. Easy to campaign on the 'It's your money, you should decide how it's spent ' platform. Nobody from either major party can talk about how the basics in our society are going to cost a lot of money - Education and infrastructure are not cheap.

Culpability goes far and wide in a case like the Minneapolis bridge. It is indicative of how this society functions.

BTW, I am glad that my sinister version of possible sabatoge seems to have not turned out. Didn't want to be an alarmist, but these thoughts do go through my mind sometime.

Wanna see good roads? Go to Switzerland or Germany or Austria or France or Italy! But it ain't free kids! Someone's gonna have to pony up the money for real improvements.

[keno]

and how much do the folks in those countries pay for gasoline, and have forever? Do you think that Americans would be willing to pay at those levels, at all times, and give up their SUVs to ride roads like that? You have to tell both sides of the story to keep any reality alive in discussions like these.

keno

[paulh]

William, surprised you did not mention The Who and "Won't Get Fooled Again", or did I miss it?

keno


Fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again." —President George W. Bush, Nashville, Tenn., Sept. 17, 2002

[MarleyMon]

From what I have seen, heard and read, no one knows why this bridge collapsed.
Perhaps some aspect of the failure will turn out to be political, perhaps not.
Blame whomever you want at this point, because no one can prove you wrong!

[saab2000]

and how much do the folks in those countries pay for gasoline, and have forever? Do you think that Americans would be willing to pay at those levels, at all times, and give up their SUVs to ride roads like that? You have to tell both sides of the story to keep any reality alive in discussions like these.

keno

Where did I say it was cheap? Re-read my post.

[Bobbo]

It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried.
Sir Winston Churchill
British politician (1874 - 1965)

William, surprised you did not mention The Who and "Won't Get Fooled Again", or did I miss it?

Another, though personal, thought. I am endlessly fascinated by the recourse that some human beings have to placing blame when bad events occur (which are inevitable until such a thing as perfection, whatever that might be, is a law, like gravity, that governs the affairs of the world). Unfortunate things do happen, and often without warning, yet some actually think that all of these things should never happen or could be prevented. I wonder, but not for long, if such folks ever consider all of the bads things that have not happened at least to appreciate that there is a balancing act going on, no matter how fidgety.

And then there is tobacco, a product that causes horrible consequences to its users and to those of us who don't in the form of personal grief, higher insurance costs, and suffering the effects of those who smoke in our presence. Now there is something that is not a covert danger, yet the great balancing act keeps it alive and "healthy".

Ginger, when you mention education comes to mind teachers' unions, the worst enemy to education. Ironic, ain't it?

keno

Thought this was worth repeating. Well said.

[rounder]

i don't agree that "they" and "we" are the same. far from it.

our interests aren't the same. "we" are 300+ million. "they" are 100 senators, 400+ representatives, 1 semi-president and darth cheney.

broadly speaking, "we" have big, long-term, complicated needs: health care, educating our children, retirement, a safe place to live, a good job, a growing economy, civil rights, economic opportunity. "they" have one single need: get re-elected, which means raising money, which means kissing the @ss of a few deeped pocketed special interests, and toeing the party line of whichever party they're in so they can feed at the trough of the DNC or the RNC.

that, my friends, in a nut shell, is why our politics are f*ck'd and will stay f*ck'd. our interests and their interests simply don't meet. as a nation, we need a government that actually governs, that tries to tackle complex, long-term issues (like aging infrastructure). instead, we have a government that is in prepetual re-election, fundraising and power-acquisition mode.

both democrats and republicans are guilty as sin but here in a spine-tingling example: carl rove's single goal has been to create a permanent republican majority...not to permanently solve even one real problem americans face, but to permanently solve "the" problem republicans (and democrats) have: how do "they" stay in office, stay in power, and stay rolling in lobbyist's money.

sadly, the one "politician" i've heard lately who makes true sense is kinky friedman. the rest, blue and red, are just decrees of the same old shiite.


I agree with what a lot of people here have said, but agree mainly with Climb. I think our politicians are primarily interested in getting reelected, and stacking congress for the future, to the point where it has become a full-time pursuit.

Every once in a while I watch congress on cable. Typically, it is one senator/congressman expressing outrage to an empty room. I don't think that any of them are seriously interested in accomplishing anything meaningful in a bipartisan way, to the point where it has become one large stalemate. Meanwhile, all of the really important issues continue to grow.

Sorry to vent...thanks.

[michael white]

"Heckava job, Brownie!"

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . on the AP wire refers to a 1990 inspection when the state was told there were serious corrosion problems in the bridge's bearings. These are the flexible points at which the bridge deck rests on the piers. They move slightly to adjust for vibration and shifting. Kind of like the Serotta ST rear stays, but on a vastly larger scale. State officials elected to simply step up inspections since the bearing were not actually shifting, just corroded.

What caught me on this was that the same story also refers to the bridge being built in 1967, so here we have a bridge that's only 23 years old that already has serious structural problems. Why? What's the planned life expectancy of such a bridge and how much did it cost when built? Why are there important components in that bridge that are compromised after only 23 years?

I'm also curious as to who exactly was supposed to be responsible for maintaining and replacing the bridge if necessary--feds or the state? It sounds like the state, judging by the stories I've seen so far. Just another "unfunded mandate" from the feds? They come in, build this huge project with substandard quality, then walk away and tell the state they have to take care of it?

BBD

[Chad Engle]

I work with this issue, bad bridges, on a fairly regular basis, only a much smaller scale. When the funds are not available, the local government folks cannot replace the bridges. People are not willing to pay the additional taxes required to do so prior to the bridge collapsing.

Now when their combine or over loaded grain trailer goes through one of the bridges, they have no problem filing a claim against the same government's liability carrier. The bridge is then repaired because it must be, the funds spent end up being pretty much the same as if they had repaired it prior to the incident and the local government ends up paying additional insurance premiums which is paid for by taxes of the same people who were not willing to voluntarily pay to repair the bridge prior to the accident.

Only so much money to go around. Blame whoever you want.

[saab2000]

From what I have heard, it is the state that is supposed to maintain this bridge, even though it is part of a federal highway.

As I have said, (along with others) the roads under this bridge were also crushed. Those roads were a main cycling thoroughfare. From those roads you could see that this bridge was not in good shape - at least from a layman's perspective.

They had a net suspended under the bridge to keep falling debris from hitting the roads below.

[Lifelover]

I've worked around politicians (usually small time, but some big ones) for a lot of my professional life and I think you have it wrong. William, you state, "Deep down, we know what needs to be done. But now days most people don't have the balls to do it." The problem is, there are about 300 million of us and we each 'know' what has to be done, except we each have a slightly different version of what needs to be done that we KNOW. Politicians have to reconcile all of that into solutions that work for the most people to the highest degree. Or, put another way, piss off the fewest people and to the least extent possible. If you think that's easy or that there are answers that we can actually agree on as a country, you're living in a dream.

Yeah, every now and then, something happens that makes our path RELATIVELY clear. 9/11 was one of those and we even managed to screw THAT one up. But that's because enough of us BELIEVED the BS they were spouting about Iraq and we kept them in office and let 'em do it. Looks like a bunch of idiots to me too, but we (collectively) did it. If a few more bridges and steam pipes blow, we'll start seeing some money go into infrastructure. But if its not on the front pages, it won't happen. We're starting to care about foriegn oil and global warming, but not enough to really change our ways, to drive less, to fly less, to buy food grown closer to home, live closer to work, etc, etc, etc. We want the govt. to solve those problems and they're complicit, but we've caused them and perpetuate them with our lifestyle decisions. Every damn one of us, to one extent or another. And once the problem gets bad enough, we WILL address it and the politicians will respond. And hopefully it won't be too late.

Every now and then a politician comes along and talks about things like infrastructure and the environment and solving long term problems but accepting the expenses that it's gonna take. Guess what. They NEVER get elected. That's us, folks.

-Ray

Ray Get's It. ATMO

[paulh]

...from the bridge site is the Metrodome. This ancient structure was opened in 1982!! Just a baby by bridge standards. It was a snowy April opening day and the powers that be were breaking their arms patting each other on the back about this great ballpark. No rainouts. Snow not a problem. It's the current home of the Vikings and Gophers football and Twins baseball. This structure has now been deemed worthless and a new gophers football stadium is underway. The Vikings have had their hand out for several legislative sessions for a new stadium but have come away emptyhanded.

Just yesterday was supposed to be the groundbreaking ceremony for the new open air Twins ball park. Somebody had some common sense and postponed it. It could have been looked at as a little tacky to have a happy faced ceremony for a taxpayer funded structure ( $500 million, $750 million... we don't know since they don't really control all of the land yet), so the millionaires on teams owned by billionaires could play their game, when not far away a taxpayer funded structure failed, causing loss of life.

[norman neville]

Ginger, when you mention education comes to mind teachers' unions, the worst enemy to education. Ironic, ain't it?

keno

unless you happen to be a teacher and want to be able to teach science or math or history or literature or critical thinking.

and eat.

and send your kids to a college.

the real enemy of education is ingorance. and the anti-intellectual strain in american culture and politics.

and idiots.

[BigDaddySmooth]

It's a very real concern though. If just a few fricking HUNDRED fewer voters had pulled the lever for Nader in Florida in 2000 we wouldn't be in the mess we're in today. We might be in an equally bad mess, but it wouldn't be this one. A lot of folks will disagree, but I'd MUCH rather be where I think we'd be in the year 2007 if Gore had become president in 2000. But that's just me.

-Ray

Chicago 1960, the fix is in to allow Kennedy to win the election. A few years later, Vietnam. Vietnam was far more destructive to this country than what has happened in Iraq. Kennedy and Johnson created that mess and the Republicans had to clean that one up. We'll see how the Democrats clean up Iraq 20 Jan 09 when Billary is elected.

[Tom]

How come when somebody's kids are really stupid they blame the teachers? Genetics has a lot more to do with it, imho.

[dbrk]

..snipped out thoughtful ruminations on theodicy..back to keno here: when you mention education comes to mind teachers' unions, the worst enemy to education. Ironic, ain't it? keno

In more then twenty years of University teaching I can count on one hand the number of students---even average students---who have gone on to teaching at any level. My very best and brightest have gone on to higher education (and I discourage them until I have tested their last fiber of inner purpose), not school teaching, and they have done so for passion and solely intrinsic motivations. The very best and brightest never go into business. That may be my anecdotal experience but I have seen hundreds graduate my Department and taught thousands more. In primary and secondary education, if we want truly talented intellectually oriented people we'll need a radical change of social values. I cannot agree that teacher's unions are at the core of educational dysfunction in America. Rather, as I see it, it is our lack of priorities and values. How many commercials do you see for joining the military each week? How many encouraging students to become teachers? Where do we spend our money? How does our society tell young people that being a teacher is a worthy, life-fulfilling choice? By telling them that teacher's unions, of which they will be members, are filled with corrupt halfwits? That would surely make me want to join up!

Whether its trying to get a decent meal on an Interstate, building a bridge, or, rarest of all, meeting a smart, honest politician (everyone's hometown guy is great, it's the other guy who is corrupt...), we're getting exactly what we deserve because we demand so much but are willing to pay (and do) so little. Profits before people has its consequences.

Of course, I'm just an idiot pinko college professor, for real insight you will soon find a more fair and balanced view at the new Wall Street Journal.

dbrk

[Climb01742]

Easy to blame the politicians, but we voted for them.

i don't accept the premise of your statement. first, with redistricting, politicians have gerrymandered districts to become "safe", and thus premanently in one party. see what tom delay did in texas. second, since when are two choices shoved down a voter's throat true "choices"? with a two-party system, it is simply a power-sharing arrangement dressed up like a democracy. look at how hard states make it for a third party candidate to get on the ballot. the european parlimentary systems aren't perfect but they offer greater choice than what we have. finally, until the electoral college is abolished, there simply isn't a popularly elected president. see 2000. most of the time, an election in america is a carefully orchestrated charade.

[norman neville]

i don't accept the premise of your statement. first, with redistricting, politicians have gerrymandered districts to become "safe", and thus premanently in one party. see what tom delay did in texas. second, since when are two choices shoved down a voter's throat true "choices"? with a two-party system, it is simply a power-sharing arrangement dressed up like a democracy. look at how hard states make it for a third party candidate to get on the ballot. the european parlimentary systems aren't perfect but they offer greater choice than what we have. finally, until the electoral college is abolished, there simply isn't a popularly elected president. see 2000. most of the time, an election in america is a carefully orchestrated charade.

well said.

sad.

and true.

[saab2000]

Climb,

I see your point. But we still cast votes for individual politicians or initiatives we like.

Until a constitutional change takes place, it is the system we have.

I am not a Swiss citizen, though I came within a gnat's eyelash of becoming one. I could then have voted there.

Do I like their system better? Their social values better? You bet!! But it also exists on a much smaller scale. Seven million people in a country the size of New Jersey is easier to manage.

Anyway, we can either live with the system we have or try to change it. I try change it by changing myself and my own values.

In a democracy (even an imperfect one like ours) change starts at the bottom and works its way up. It does not start at the top.

[Tom]

She went back to visit her parents, taking her children. My nephew related to me the story of them on a boat out in the lake there by Vevey. Somebody was eating something and just dropped the paper. She jumped up, got right in front of them and ordered them to pick it up and dispose of it properly.

"This is Switzerland! You don't do that here!"

She's like that here in the states, too. Too bad more people aren't.



On the subject of governments. I learned a new word this year, in a book on the subject of governments.

Kleptocracy.

It describes many.

[Vancouverdave]

Remember, Americans are a very spoiled and stupid lot when it comes to gasoline taxes--Washington state increased by 5 cents a few years ago and you'd have thought that the world was ending by the whining of some of the opponents. Nevermind that this has funded many road improvement projects already even though the full nickel hasn't kicked in yet. Maybe the silver lining in the Minnesota tragedy is that us Yankees will get "scared straight" and realize that the era of cheap driving is over--and bloody well should be!

[dwightskin]

Or are even any type of engineer? Or even technical?

The bridge collapse is not a political issue. It's an engineering issue. And bridges have collapsed many times over the course of bridge building. And engineers will learn from their mistakes.

Listen closely: If you would have given Minnesota 2 billion dollars, they wouldn't have re-built this bridge. This bridge was considered "OK" until at least 2020. There are several other traffic issues that claim lives EVERY YEAR that are (were?) much higher priorities. Not the least of which, the co-joined freeways that exist all around the Minneapolis-St Paul area.


So go ahead, blame the politicians. It makes you feel good. It makes your feel like you know more than them. It's "their" fault.

But there are people out there entrusted with your life. They build bridges, make houses, planes and cars. Then design infrastucture. They design life-saving medical devices. And their mistakes (or lack of knowledge) can cause loss of life. But their success saves hundreds of thousands of lives. So you'll have to "blame" them for both their successes and failures.

Dwight (Mechanical Engineer)

PS: I didn't look up the numbers, but I'm guessing more people have died from bicycle design failures in the last 30 years than structural transportation failures. Should we blame the politicians for that, too?

[michael white]

[QUOTE=the era of cheap driving is over--and bloody well should be![/QUOTE]

I'll be very happy when it's over. Hopefully, when that happens, fewer young Americans will be sent to their deaths by corrupt politicians under false (WMD) pretexts. (btw, I doubt any of those future young lambs will be NFL prospects.)

Anyway, even if that doesn't happen, there will be a strong environmental benefit, and perhaps less deterioration to the infrastructure, when cars are driven less and American SUV's go the way of the dinosaur.

[saab2000]

Yes, it is an engineering issue. But our system puts projects like bridges up for bid. Lowest bid wins.

The cheapest solution may not be the safest.

Most things are built to a price point, not a quality point.

And politicians decide on which projects get funding and which don't and which get approval for a go-ahead and which don't.

[keno]

I want everything and taxes are bad. Roy Blount Jr.

saab, I did notice what you said, but I believe that the devil is in the details. If you don't bring the issue in terms of what affects daily life, such as the price of gasoline and SUVs, in this case, it becomes someone else's problem and responsibility when one size fits all packaged.

As to teachers and teaching, when I met my current and only wife she was teaching high school English in Lawrence, MA. She quit before she might otherwise have for a very specific reason. The teachers in that school passed along to the next teacher to be his or her problem students who should never have been passed the first teacher's class. Also, the teachers were much more interested in hustling to the teachers' lounge to continue a bridge game, read the paper, and smoke than to teach math, science, and the rest. BTW, as far as I am concerned, the best quality a teacher can have is the ability to inspire a student to learn. Inspirational folks who inspire others in any direction are few and far between in the human experience. I also think that the influence of parents is crucial to how a child approaches learning. The role too many parents take is browbeat teachers to increase a child's grade regardless of deservedness rather than care about how good a student they've raised.

I take it, rightly or wrongly, norman neville, that you are a teacher, and, similarly, that I am one of those "idiots" you refer to. I am not as stupid as I look. I'm stupider.

[saab2000]

.... and, similarly, that I am one of those "idiots" you refer to. I am not as stupid as I look. I'm stupider.


Me too!! :beer:

[Giff]

I'll be very happy when it's over. Hopefully, when that happens, fewer young Americans will be sent to their deaths by corrupt politicians under false (WMD) pretexts. (btw, I doubt any of those future young lambs will be NFL prospects.)

Anyway, even if that doesn't happen, there will be a strong environmental benefit, and perhaps less deterioration to the infrastructure, when cars are driven less and American SUV's go the way of the dinosaur.


Let's remember that EVERYONE, including Bill Clinton and Kerry said that Iraq had WMDs!! It was NOT just Bush. Up until the point that Kerry started running, both parties said there were WMDs in Iraq.

And for those that don't think AlQaida had a presence in Iraq prior to the war, please find a Special Forces soldier who was on the ground and saw the camps as well as the safe houses filled with bomb making equipment, American Airport X-Ray machines, Bomb Sniffers and metal detectors (all documented by National Geographic)!! Also, we have mass graves of Iraqi citizens, video evidence of the use of Chemical weapons on the populace of Iraq, testimony after testimony of human rights violations such as folks having their tongues pulled out with pliers and then cut off and ears lopped off! The list of gross human rights violations goes on. Saddam was in violation of NUMEROUS UN Resolutions for nearly 20 years! We finally had a president who had the backbone to do something about it. Al Qaida WAS operating in Iraq with the knowledge of Saddam Hussein. There is no way around it. Heck Iraqi "dipolomats" were booted out of the US for serveillance on targets in the US. Was it perfect? No. Should we have brought in more troops up front, yes. However, our military was DECIMATED by years of neglect by the Clinton administration. HUGE drawdowns of soldiers, equipment expenditures derailed by Congress, training budgets slashed, in addition the the way the Clinton administration gutted the CIAs ability to put men on the ground to gather HUMINT, then the Dems turn around and blame the intelligence community for not doing their jobs!

We do not have a perfect system of Government (A Republic, BTW, NOT a democracy). I don't think there is such a thing that will ever exist on earth. But throwing blame out with NO VALID ANSWERS OR EVEN SUGGESTIONS except RETREAT!!! does not solve issues.

I've driven on German roads. They are not all smooth and nice. Even parts of the Autobahn are degraded with speed limits similar to ours, if not lower. Sure, we could spend more on infrastructure, but often thatn not it's the state governments that make the decisions. The Levy Board in NO declined federal funds for YEARS and chose not to make upgrades. The money was there from the Feds, the board didn't want to use it!

Shoot, here in Omaha we just spent an obscene amount of cash on an elevated expressway! This was a state/city led effort with some funding from the Feds. Money could have been used in many other ways, but the State/City wanted this, so there it is.

While what happened is tragic, we have seen a large number of structures fail prematurely over the last few years, not just publicly funded projects. We've had the ceiling of the Big Dig in Massachussets falling down, Crown Center Walkway in Kansas City, that pier that fell into the lake, the list goes on. Perhaps we have a problem with pride of workmanship and such.....

[Fixed]

bro we need to fire 90% of everybody in wasington imho :beer:

[saab2000]

Perhaps we have a problem with pride of workmanship and such.....


That's a part of it...... A big part of it. Nobody cares any more. Or at least a lot of people don't care anymore.

And that applies to a lot of our society.

One of the reasons I like my Serottae. I feel that there was a pride in workmanship and attention to detail on both of them.

[velodadi]

Before you guys rant about Halliburton and everything else that has no bearing on the situation, let me give you a few facts to consider:

If your representatives ( both sides) spent our money wisely instead of on "Earmarks" for new BRIDGES to nowhere in Alaska, maybe this tragedy would not have happened. Go tell them that you aren't going to put up with it anymore.

Feds inspectand provide partial funding, States bid out and maintain bridges. Minnesota has to bear serious responsibility for this. They had the inspection report. They were repaving a bridge that was unsound. Is that ridiculous or what?

As tragic as the whole event is, it once again shows that Americans pull together in a tragedy. Did you see those guys run INTO that school bus and help those kids get to safety? That is what I love about America.

Now, can somebody tell me how is really different between a Nove and a Fierte IT? Are the tubes better?

V

[gdw]

Best post so far. I'm not a structural engineer but I live with one who has worked with several state DOT's over the years and she isn't too impressed with the news coverage of the disaster. Too many opinions are being presented by talking heads who lack the critical information needed to accurately determine why the bridge failed. Sound familiar? Opinions vs facts? This is an engineering issue although many of you seem to want to use it to espress your frustration with our political system, current administration, teachers unions, etc.

[saab2000]

Best post so far. I'm not a structural engineer but I live with one who has worked with several state DOT's over the years and she isn't too impressed with the news coverage of the disaster. Too many opinions are being presented by talking heads who lack the critical information needed to accurately determine why the bridge failed. Sound familiar? Opinions vs facts? This is an engineering issue although many of you seem to want to use it to espress your frustration with our political system, current administration, teachers unions, etc.


Same goes for stories in the mainstream media about aviation.

I'll keep my mouth shut now.... :banana:

[Louis]

Did you see those guys run INTO that school bus and help those kids get to safety? That is what I love about America.

VeloD,

Are you suggesting that folks of other nationalities are less likely to put themselves at risk to help a bunch of children, and hence there is more to love about America than other countries?

FYI the guy who is being touted as one of the major "heroes" of that whole bus episode has a name that seems suspiciously Hispanic to me. I wonder if he and all his relatives are in this country legally...

[1centaur]

This thread has it all. I don't anticipate a neat conclusion. Maybe somebody should mention abortion or religion to make the content richer. Friday in August.

[JohnS]

C'mon everyone, this is all your fault. This forum has a large amount of disposable income. Contribute to political campaigns...become a special interest...run for office...get involved...bribe people...it's the American way!!! :banana: :banana: :banana:

[gdw]

Once again Eddie cast the bait and the fish rose to feed. :banana:

[davep]

VeloD,

Are you suggesting that folks of other nationalities are less likely to put themselves at risk to help a bunch of children, and hence there is more to love about America than other countries?

FYI the guy who is being touted as one of the major "heroes" of that whole bus episode has a name that seems suspiciously Hispanic to me. I wonder if he and all his relatives are in this country legally...

Louis,

Why is a Hispanic name "suspicious"? Do you wonder if all people with Hispanic names are legal?

[eddief]

these are issues that i am genuinely interested in and really quite interested in the group intelligence available here. it is a great forum for cycling and, of late, a remarkably open and mostly mature place to discuss ideas. the net does have the potential to level the playing field in a way not available anywhere else.

i appreciate those who are willing to have a dialogue on subjects about which i have a limited scope and experience.

so great we have cycling and other matters in common.

[gdw]

You seem to be in the habit of starting posts which have a political edge.
http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=30282
http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=28861

[Louis]

Louis,

Why is a Hispanic name "suspicious"? Do you wonder if all people with Hispanic names are legal?

Dave,

I was being sarcastic, but I guess my tone of voice did not transmit properly across the 'net.

Louis

[bozman]

i don't agree that "they" and "we" are the same. far from it.

our interests aren't the same. "we" are 300+ million. "they" are 100 senators, 400+ representatives, 1 semi-president and darth cheney.

broadly speaking, "we" have big, long-term, complicated needs: health care, educating our children, retirement, a safe place to live, a good job, a growing economy, civil rights, economic opportunity. "they" have one single need: get re-elected, which means raising money, which means kissing the @ss of a few deeped pocketed special interests, and toeing the party line of whichever party they're in so they can feed at the trough of the DNC or the RNC.

that, my friends, in a nut shell, is why our politics are f*ck'd and will stay f*ck'd. our interests and their interests simply don't meet. as a nation, we need a government that actually governs, that tries to tackle complex, long-term issues (like aging infrastructure). instead, we have a government that is in prepetual re-election, fundraising and power-acquisition mode.

both democrats and republicans are guilty as sin but here in a spine-tingling example: carl rove's single goal has been to create a permanent republican majority...not to permanently solve even one real problem americans face, but to permanently solve "the" problem republicans (and democrats) have: how do "they" stay in office, stay in power, and stay rolling in lobbyist's money.

sadly, the one "politician" i've heard lately who makes true sense is kinky friedman. the rest, blue and red, are just decrees of the same old shiite.

Climb-I could not agree with you more. Where have all the good politicians gone?

Why do we get so bent about paying taxes? That is the price we pay for living in America. Freedom isn't free.

I knew someone would get around to blaming Bill Clinton. Everything bad that has happened since 1992 is his fault.

The event in Minnesota this week was indeed a tragedy. I have to believe it could have been prevented.

[davep]

Dave,

I was being sarcastic, but I guess my tone of voice did not transmit properly across the 'net.

Louis

Louis,

Sorry, I didn't pick up on the tone. That's why we all need to use the funny little gidgets. :banana: :beer: :rolleyes: :) :crap:

[SBash]

Not to worry, this will all change once we: 1) Run out of OIL. 2) Have TERM LIMITS in Congress. 3) No more FAMILY presidents. Maybe 50-100 years!

SB
Ps: If they're not doing the job, vote the scum-bags out!

[MarleyMon]

... I have to believe it could have been prevented.

I find this ironic when followed by your signature line!
We don't know the facts.
We don't know why it collapsed, so we don't know if it could have been prevented.

[LesMiner]

She went back to visit her parents, taking her children. My nephew related to me the story of them on a boat out in the lake there by Vevey. Somebody was eating something and just dropped the paper. She jumped up, got right in front of them and ordered them to pick it up and dispose of it properly.

"This is Switzerland! You don't do that here!"

She's like that here in the states, too. Too bad more people aren't.

My brother worked in Germany for a couple of years. The neighborhood where he lived was rather conservative. The bus stop had painted lines to indicate where to wait. If anyone stepped on the painted line, everyone would go on the attack "you can not stand on the line!". My brother was washing his car and his neighbors disconnected the hose and told him it was a day of rest. I think litering was punishable by death.

[LesMiner]

The Republican Lt Governor came on the news today and is still playing the partisan politics. Same rhetoric as before the 35W bridge fell down. If it is not a Republican Party idea then they do not support it.

[1centaur]

"Why do we get so bent about paying taxes? That is the price we pay for living in America. "

Taking money from people who earn it is inherently immoral. If tax money was spent only on the most extreme necessities (infrastructure would count) that would be fine (a greater morality, let's say), but it's spent on lots of stuff that ranges from "wouldn't it be nice if" (somebody else paid for this) to extreme pork. When 40% of people pay no income taxes and 5% pay 50% of the taxes while the 40% vote to spend tax money on wouldn't it be nice issues and the 5% are told they need to pay ever more for the sake of "fairness," you can see why some complain. But to put the shoe on the other foot, why do people get so bent about paying for the war in Iraq, rebuilding their infrastructure, etc? It's the price we pay for living in America.

Let's face it, taxing and spending is always going to be more popular with the people getting the benefits of spending and not being taxed than vice versa. That's human nature. As is lowest common denominator politicians demagoguing issues and directly benefiting from taking money out of one pocket to put into another. In the larger sense, leaving money in the hands of productive people (earners) is better for the economy than running it through government bureaucracies - a growing pie benefits all more than does a growing tax burden.

Why do we get bent? Because we already pay a lot and know that politicians will keep taking more from us if they possibly can because they can always think of new ways to spend it. It's a battle for what's in my wallet. Would you get bent if you were walking through the park and a policeman asked to look in your wallet and decided that $40 should go to the homeless guy passing by because he's worse off than you so it's just a matter of fairness to give him some?

[Bud_E]

... But to put the shoe on the other foot, why do people get so bent about paying for the war in Iraq, rebuilding their infrastructure, etc? It's the price we pay for living in America.

We're not paying for the war in Iraq -- Our children will be footing the bill for that one.

[SBash]

Just saw a Poll on The Situation Room with Wolf Blitzer for Bush and Congress Job approval rating. BUSH: 24%; CONGRESS: 3%; ± 3%.

Seems high!

[JohnS]

Well, ole Tommy Jefferson said that a revolution every now and then was a good thing... :p
I find it ironic that the people from the home of the Minuteman (MA), are now some of the most disarmed people around. :confused:

[Elefantino]

Just saw a Poll on The Situation Room with Wolf Blitzer for Bush and Congress Job approval rating. BUSH: 24%; CONGRESS: 3%; ± 3%.

Seems high!
What is the poll rating for the American people? We're the idiots that put these people in power. People say Bush is the worst president … or that this is the worst Congress. But the fact is that we are the worst American people in my lifetime.

We're in a war, and we don't care. We have a health-care crisis, and we don't care. We have an immigration nightmare, and we don't care. We're sitting on an environmental time bomb, and we don't care. We have a crumbling infrastructure, but we don't care.

But hey … when does the next American Idol start?

My gosh, we really suck.

[Ray]

What is the poll rating for the American people? We're the idiots that put these people in power. People say Bush is the worst president … or that this is the worst Congress. But the fact is that we are the worst American people in my lifetime.
......

My gosh, we really suck.
Right on! Throw the bums out! All of 'em. Er....us.

I quite agree with you and I count myself among those causing the problem, although I make an effort so I probably cause less of it than lots of folks. But I can't pretend that my lifestyle doesn't contribute to lots of the problems we have. I just can't manage to see our politicians as somehow separate from our society. Yeah, there's gerrymandering and big money controlling the flow of information, but that's always been true to one extent or another. The bottom line is we vote for people who reflect our collective vision and our collective vision at the moment is a friggin' mess. We want everything, we don't want to pay for any of it, and we think we should be 100% safe and protected. We come by it somewhat honestly having grown used to getting fat, dumb, and happy over the past 50 years or so, but I don't see us as the people capable of solving the problems we've created. I can only hope our kids are made of sterner stuff.

-Ray

[SBash]

What is the poll rating for the American people? We're the idiots that put these people in power. People say Bush is the worst president … or that this is the worst Congress. But the fact is that we are the worst American people in my lifetime.

We're in a war, and we don't care. We have a health-care crisis, and we don't care. We have an immigration nightmare, and we don't care. We're sitting on an environmental time bomb, and we don't care. We have a crumbling infrastructure, but we don't care.

But hey … when does the next American Idol start?

My gosh, we really suck.

You're right! So, we need to vote them out. They have had a chance, and we the people, who voted them in, and trusted them to do the job, have to get them out. Polls also show a Independent party is growing faster than ever, with upwards of 35% of Americans are independents. This is a reaction towards both major parties that we are fed-up. So, maybe it is working, but we just have to do our part. We need someone with a big name/money to run as a Independent for Pres, it has to start there.

[rounder]

"Why do we get so bent about paying taxes? That is the price we pay for living in America. "

Taking money from people who earn it is inherently immoral. If tax money was spent only on the most extreme necessities (infrastructure would count) that would be fine (a greater morality, let's say), but it's spent on lots of stuff that ranges from "wouldn't it be nice if" (somebody else paid for this) to extreme pork. When 40% of people pay no income taxes and 5% pay 50% of the taxes while the 40% vote to spend tax money on wouldn't it be nice issues and the 5% are told they need to pay ever more for the sake of "fairness," you can see why some complain. But to put the shoe on the other foot, why do people get so bent about paying for the war in Iraq, rebuilding their infrastructure, etc? It's the price we pay for living in America.

Let's face it, taxing and spending is always going to be more popular with the people getting the benefits of spending and not being taxed than vice versa. That's human nature. As is lowest common denominator politicians demagoguing issues and directly benefiting from taking money out of one pocket to put into another. In the larger sense, leaving money in the hands of productive people (earners) is better for the economy than running it through government bureaucracies - a growing pie benefits all more than does a growing tax burden.

Why do we get bent? Because we already pay a lot and know that politicians will keep taking more from us if they possibly can because they can always think of new ways to spend it. It's a battle for what's in my wallet. Would you get bent if you were walking through the park and a policeman asked to look in your wallet and decided that $40 should go to the homeless guy passing by because he's worse off than you so it's just a matter of fairness to give him some?


Wow. Never saw it expressed better.

[Louis]

Taking money from people who earn it is inherently immoral. If tax money was spent only on the most extreme necessities (infrastructure would count) that would be fine (a greater morality, let's say), but it's spent on lots of stuff that ranges from "wouldn't it be nice if" (somebody else paid for this) to extreme pork.

1c,

I think reasonable people can disagree on what are necessities and what are "nice to have". For example, in many parts of the world universal health care is considered a fundamental human right. For a number of reasons we have a different system in the US. In part because of that we have a little less income redistribution in the US than occurs in some other countries. I'm not sure if that makes us more or less moral than they are. I find the current back and forth over SCHIP particularly interesting...

Louis

[Elefantino]

I can only hope our kids are made of sterner stuff.
My 15-year-old soon-to-be-a-sophomore daughter is politically savvy and wants to go to college to study law and political science. She says she wants to make a difference. … I wanted to go to college to party and just be a sports writer.

They are made of sterner stuff. Much sterner stuff.

[stevep]

[QUOTE=Giff Holmquist] We finally had a president who had the backbone to do something about it. Al Qaida WAS operating in Iraq with the knowledge of Saddam Hussein. There is no way around it. Heck Iraqi "dipolomats" were booted out of the US for serveillance on targets in the US. Was it perfect? No. Should we have brought in more troops up front, yes. However, our military was DECIMATED by years of neglect by the Clinton administration. HUGE drawdowns of soldiers, equipment expenditures derailed by Congress, training budgets slashed, in addition the the way the Clinton administration gutted the CIAs ability to put men on the ground to gather HUMINT, then the Dems turn around and blame the intelligence community for not doing their jobs!

QUOTE]

good point gif.
all clintons fault.
you gotta watch non fox news sometime.
the brilliant leadership of **** cheney and his surrogate fool will clean up this mess soon enough.

[ti_boi]

Wow.....all I can say is that there is a lot of pent up frustration on this board -- and I expect in the country at large regarding what we see as a complete lack of priorities in Washington, DC.

That being said, my lifestyle and standard of living -- and probably those on this board as well -- would seem to approach idyllic or amazing based on what I know about many parts of the world.

What I wonder about is how the 'people' can begin to take back their government. I think most people do not trust the government to act in their best interest or to handle anything of importance. But when will we the people finally say enough? When will we really 'own' what happens in DC???

[dancinkozmo]

[QUOTE=Giff Holmquist] We finally had a president who had the backbone to do something about it. Al Qaida WAS operating in Iraq with the knowledge of Saddam Hussein. There is no way around it. Heck Iraqi "dipolomats" were booted out of the US for serveillance on targets in the US. Was it perfect? No. Should we have brought in more troops up front, yes. However, our military was DECIMATED by years of neglect by the Clinton administration. HUGE drawdowns of soldiers, equipment expenditures derailed by Congress, training budgets slashed, in addition the the way the Clinton administration gutted the CIAs ability to put men on the ground to gather HUMINT, then the Dems turn around and blame the intelligence community for not doing their jobs!

QUOTE]

good point gif.
all clintons fault.
you gotta watch non fox news sometime.
the brilliant leadership of **** cheney and his surrogate fool will clean up this mess soon enough.

Saw a poll the other day where they asked people some basic news questions and which news they usually watched....
PBS viewers scored the highest..... 80 % correct
FOX scored the lowest...less than 20 % correct

the rest (CNN, CBS etc. were somewhere inbetween)

[mikki]

We're starting to care about foriegn oil and global warming, but not enough to really change our ways, to drive less, to fly less, to buy food grown closer to home, live closer to work, etc, etc, etc. We want the govt. to solve those problems and they're complicit, but we've caused them and perpetuate them with our lifestyle decisions. Every damn one of us, to one extent or another. And once the problem gets bad enough, we WILL address it and the politicians will respond. And hopefully it won't be too late.

Every now and then a politician comes along and talks about things like infrastructure and the environment and solving long term problems but accepting the expenses that it's gonna take. Guess what. They NEVER get elected. That's us, folks.

-Ray[/QUOTE]


I agree wholeheartedly. We all gripe about the above, but keep purchasing from companies that waste our resources because they are cheaper, keep driving when we could walk or ride our bike or take public transportation, keep using and creating non-biodegradable waste that fills our landfiills, (biodegradable materials would cost us more) and then blame every negative outcome on our government....

I don't think we can simply point fingers at our government until we can look at even our own individual and then family and then community behaviors. What for instance is each person who reads this post doing to improve gas consumption, their carbon footprint, supporting companies that are helping the environment and human relations (and not causing thousands of small businesses to go out of business), etc.

IMHO I think that there are crooks and people who want to get by doing as little as possible in ANY business....our government included. There ARE also politicians who work hard to do the best they can for the most they can.

Having said all of this, my engineer husband has been saying for some 15 years that we should be retro-fitting all bridges and not just in the earthquake areas, either....

[keno]

While we're on the subject of how the government(s) should spend our money, would someone please tell me why obesity is a problem putting in its supersize order for government solution? Does personal responsibility stop at ordering too much food?

keno

[CNY rider]

While we're on the subject of how the government(s) should spend our money, would someone please tell me why obesity is a problem putting in its supersize order for government solution? Does personal responsibility stop at ordering too much food?

keno


The solution would be for the government to STOP spending so much on subsidizing the obesity epidemic.
The farm bill being worked on right this moment in Congress takes billions of our tax dollars and subsidizes industrial agri-business production of a few crops, including corn. That heavily subsidized corn ultimately becomes high fructose corn syrup, and beef after it gets to the feedlots. That ultimately ends up in the 99 cent "value" you can get at the local burger joint, which consists of a McFat burger and a gallon of soda. So for 99 cents plus a big government subsidy out of my pocket you get to gorge yourself on fat and empty calories.
All I want to do is get government to stop subsidizing obesity and poor eating habits. I don't care for them trying to tell people what to eat, but I don't want them using tax money to support destructive agricultural practices and unhealthy eating.

[39cross]

I find it ironic that the people from the home of the Minuteman (MA), are now some of the most disarmed people around. :confused:
Do you mean we don't have enough arms? As luck would have it, I have two. :)

[ti_boi]

I think the bottom line is that people are going to get angry about how their money is being spent....information and numbers are more available now than ever before and an educated electorate is a dangerous one for those imbeciles who have been squandering our tax dollars for the last 7 years....*SOME STOP ME BEFORE I RANT.....

[Giff]

[QUOTE=Giff Holmquist] We finally had a president who had the backbone to do something about it. Al Qaida WAS operating in Iraq with the knowledge of Saddam Hussein. There is no way around it. Heck Iraqi "dipolomats" were booted out of the US for serveillance on targets in the US. Was it perfect? No. Should we have brought in more troops up front, yes. However, our military was DECIMATED by years of neglect by the Clinton administration. HUGE drawdowns of soldiers, equipment expenditures derailed by Congress, training budgets slashed, in addition the the way the Clinton administration gutted the CIAs ability to put men on the ground to gather HUMINT, then the Dems turn around and blame the intelligence community for not doing their jobs!

QUOTE]

good point gif.
all clintons fault.
you gotta watch non fox news sometime.
the brilliant leadership of **** cheney and his surrogate fool will clean up this mess soon enough.

First off, I don't listen/watch just Fox. MSNBC is probably my number one source of news. But I've also spent time talking to people who are on the tip of the spear and have spent time in Afghanistan and Iraq. People I trust and respect. As I said, the situation was not perfect and our leadership has not been perfect, BUT, Bush stepped in where all Clinton, Kerry and others did was talk. Talking gets you nowhere with islamic fundamentalist terrorists. They could care less about negotiating and such. They want a completely, islamic controlled world and have shown they are willing to kill as many "infidels" as necessary to make this happen.

And, it was absolutely Clinton's irresponsible scuttling of the military and intelligence agencies, as well as his unwillingness to take out Bin Laden years ago that led us to the GWOT. Perhaps you need to stop listening to just CNN and MOVEON.org....

[Grant McLean]

As I said, the situation was not perfect and our leadership has not been perfect


Not perfect? Wow, understatement of the millenium!


Bush stepped in where all Clinton, Kerry and others did was talk.

Bush stepped in it alright.

-g

[michael white]

Bush stepped in it alright.

-g

past the eyebrows.

[SBash]

[QUOTE=stevep]

First off, I don't listen/watch just Fox. MSNBC is probably my number one source of news. But I've also spent time talking to people who are on the tip of the spear and have spent time in Afghanistan and Iraq. People I trust and respect. As I said, the situation was not perfect and our leadership has not been perfect, BUT, Bush stepped in where all Clinton, Kerry and others did was talk. Talking gets you nowhere with islamic fundamentalist terrorists. They could care less about negotiating and such. They want a completely, islamic controlled world and have shown they are willing to kill as many "infidels" as necessary to make this happen.

And, it was absolutely Clinton's irresponsible scuttling of the military and intelligence agencies, as well as his unwillingness to take out Bin Laden years ago that led us to the GWOT. Perhaps you need to stop listening to just CNN and MOVEON.org....

Only 25% support num-nuts. So, now its all Clinton's fault. Where is Bin Laden now?

[stevep]

[QUOTE=stevep]

BUT, Bush stepped in where all Clinton, Kerry and others did was talk. Talking gets you nowhere with islamic fundamentalist terrorists. They could care less about negotiating and such. They want a completely, islamic controlled world and have shown they are willing to kill as many "infidels" as necessary to make this happen.

And, it was absolutely Clinton's irresponsible scuttling of the military and intelligence agencies, as well as his unwillingness to take out Bin Laden years ago that led us to the GWOT. Perhaps you need to stop listening to just CNN and MOVEON.org....

you really think we are better off owning this disaster in iraq?
bush stepped in ?
what exactly?
be objective man.
this is a catastrophe that may take 40 years to solve...in the process it will cost the usa 2 trillion $$, diminish the us army, ruin the moral authority of the usa throughout the world and end up with civil war throughout the oil regions.
this is a good way to address the issues?
maybe better to talk some more i think.
blame clinton?
come back to planet earth. the good ship bush is on the rocks.

[SBash]

[QUOTE=Giff Holmquist]

you really think we are better off owning this disaster in iraq?
bush stepped in ?
what exactly?
be objective man.
this is a catastrophe that may take 40 years to solve...in the process it will cost the usa 2 trillion $$, diminish the us army, ruin the moral authority of the usa throughout the world and end up with civil war throughout the oil regions.
this is a good way to address the issues?
maybe better to talk some more i think.
blame clinton?
come back to planet earth. the good ship bush is on the rocks.

Here is something that will freak you out:
$1 trillion = a 700 mile high pile of $100 dollar bills

Thats a lot of bridges!

[Lifelover]

I think I enjoyed this board more before I knew anybodies political positions.

Is there a way to but a thread on your ignore list :crap:

[eddief]

then at some point began to spiral away from my intended topic and into the never never land of the wide politcal spectrum.

i promise to bite my tongue next time i have a topic that i think might be interesting.

[ti_boi]

I think I enjoyed this board more before I knew anybodies political positions.

Is there a way to but a thread on your ignore list :crap:

Have you ever heard the expression "ignorance is bliss"?

In a related story......................."Washington — Former House Speaker Newt Gingrich said Thursday the Bush administration is waging a "phony war" on terrorism, warning that the country is losing ground against the kind of Islamic radicals who attacked the country on Sept. 11, 2001.

A more effective approach, said Gingrich, would begin with a national energy strategy aimed at weaning the country from its reliance on imported oil and some of the regimes that petro-dollars support.

"None of you should believe we are winning this war. There is no evidence that we are winning this war," the ex-Georgian told a group of about 300 students attending a conference for collegiate conservatives.

Gingrich, who led the so-called Republican Revolution that won the GOP control of both houses of Congress in 1994 midterm elections, said more must be done to marshal national resources to combat Islamic militants at home and abroad and to prepare the country for future attack. He was unstinting in his criticism of his fellow Republicans, in the White House and on Capitol Hill.

"We were in charge for six years," he said, referring to the period between 2001 and early 2007, when the GOP controlled the White House and both houses of Congress. "I don't think you can look and say that was a great success."

SOURCE: http://www.ajc.com/news/content/news/stories/2007/08/03/newt0803.html

[Lifelover]

Have you ever heard the expression "ignorance is bliss"?....




Hell, I coined the phrase!

Nevermind

[norman neville]

When 40% of people pay no income taxes and 5% pay 50% of the taxes while the 40% vote to spend tax money on wouldn't it be nice issues and the 5% are told they need to pay ever more for the sake of "fairness," you can see why some complain.

the folks who do not pay net income taxes, do not pay NO TAXES. they are taxed very heavily as a percentage of income.

let's get back to the tax structure we had during that golden age of conservative, republican, pro-defense, "pure", "fundamental" american family values, the eisenhower administration.

[michael white]

I'm just glad the nightmare seems to be coming to its ignominious end. . .

[1centaur]

the folks who do not pay net income taxes, do not pay NO TAXES. they are taxed very heavily as a percentage of income. l

Social Security is forced savings for which those at the low end who get a return that might be higher if they were not forced, were that possible. Unemployment tax pays overwhelmingly to those at the low end. But if you'd be fine with a flat tax across all parties, fine by me. Also, if all politicians were capable of minimizing the total tax haul and providing a bare bones safety net, progressivity would make sense. Reaping all that can possibly be reaped while politicians on both sides decry the taxes their voters pay yet enjoying every last dollar at their disposal, that's a bad system. Any pretense at fairness supported by the tip of the pyramid has been undercut by human nature many times (remember the 96% top rate in Britain a few decades ago?) - "fairness" is just a way to get the ball rolling at the top but that ball will keep rolling to feed the maw. Incentives matter, for the top to invest and for the bottom to vote for politicians who will give them more - dependency as a way of life.

Tax policy is very complicated, but the insatiable need to find more ways of spending our money makes it impossible to find consensus, IMO.

[SamIAm]

A government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always count on Paul's vote.

[3chordwonder]

Presumably Peter would prefer for Paul to starve, become desperate and kill Peter in order to live.

In that scenario Peter will spend more on building a wall to keep out Paul than it would have cost Peter to pay the government to furnish Paul with a minimum safety net and some education.

But, at least Peter will have had the warm satisfaction of knowing he kept all his toys to himself.

[William]

Presumably Peter would prefer for Paul to starve, become desperate and kill Peter in order to live.

In that scenario Peter will spend more on building a wall to keep out Paul than it would have cost Peter to pay the government to furnish Paul with a minimum safety net and some education.

But, at least Peter will have had the warm satisfaction of knowing he kept all his toys to himself.


Let them eat cake?




William

[michael white]

cake for the natives, shock-and-awe for everyone else . . . works like a charm.