Arch Cleats

[duke]

There seems to be a growning consensus of the advantages of the arch cleat setup. Specifically on the Cycling News fitness site.. http://www.cyclingnews.com/fitness/?id=default#qa.
Do any forumites have any insight to the advantages/disadvantages of this cleat setup.
Thanks and regards,
duke

[Simon Q]

Not arch cleats but following Steve Hogg's methodology (I sent my shoes to him to initially set up the cleats) I run my cleats 14 mm behind the spindle (size 48) and have better torque through more of the arc of the crank and the feet feel better balanced and enlist more glutes/upper leg. So two things: 1. ball over spindle is not the answer for all, certainly a huge improvement having mt cleats back (for the way I function at least) and, getting back to your question, 2. if 14 mm increases torque going back further could well be even better. I would be interested to try them when finances/time permit.

[davep]

Many long distance riders move their cleats back. Lon Haldeman is known for moving riders cleats back when they are having problems/pain. I don't know if it is as far as the arch, but he moves them far enough that he has to drill new holes.

[znfdl]

Many long distance riders move their cleats back. Lon Haldeman is known for moving riders cleats back when they are having problems/pain. I don't know if it is as far as the arch, but he moves them far enough that he has to drill new holes.

Lon did this on the Elite Tour for a person who was having foot and achilles tendon problems. The day after Lon moved the cleats the rider was a hammering again.

[Waldo]

I am about to buy into the hype. Have an appointment with a fitter friend next Tuesday to drill my shoes to move the cleats waaaaaaaaaay back to my arches. This will be his first attempt at the modification. Keeping my fingers crossed. Will let you know how the experiment goes.

[gregclimbs]

This works best with two bolt cleats...

I am ordering a set of biomac shoes shortly...

For tt-ing, I liked the rearward cleat position (the speedplay adaptor allowed me 25mm rear set from existing position)

G

[72gmc]

I recall riding toeclips and while the spindle may have been under the ball of my foot, the cleat was clearly behind so it could hook on the back of the pedal cage. Isn't this the same idea, except for the difference in spindle position with clipless cleats? I currently ride with my spd cleats at the back of the slots.

[Waldo]

I was on vacation for 8 days without a bike, so I joined a local gym and rode an exercise bike. Intentionally, I kept the straps very loose so that the pedal spindles would be under my arches. It felt good.

[gregclimbs]

This works best with two bolt cleats...

I am ordering a set of biomac shoes shortly...

For tt-ing, I liked the rearward cleat position (the speedplay adaptor allowed me 25mm rear set from existing position)

G

[wasfast]

I spent some time on a ride thinking about the placement. One thing I realized is that if you are using a shovel to dig, you don't use the ball of your foot, you use the arch instinctly.

[Waldo]

I spent some time on a ride thinking about the placement. One thing I realized is that if you are using a shovel to dig, you don't use the ball of your foot, you use the arch instinctly.

I dig that analogy.

[TAW]

I spent some time on a ride thinking about the placement. One thing I realized is that if you are using a shovel to dig, you don't use the ball of your foot, you use the arch instinctly.

On the other hand, if you were going to squash a bug, or climb up some stairs quickly, you'd primarily use the ball of your foot. This is not to say that the arch placement is a bad idea, since I don't really know. I'm just wondering if it might depend on how you pedal, if you like to mash or spin. :)

[wasfast]

I understand other "applications" where your feet are used. I was thinking mostly about when you want to put maximum power on the pedals, like sprinting or climbing out of the saddle. Here, you want to use your body weight to your advantage. The load is transmitted most directly right underneath your leg bones. The closer you are to that, the more direct the power application....just talking, I don't really know.

I am going to try moving my cleats back though and see if there's any difference. This won't be with any sort of adapter so it may be a waste of time.

[Simon Q]

The difference to me was (apart from deloading the calves and loading upper/glutes (strong) is that you start the power phose earlier in the pedla stroke more torque for longer. Bascially, this is great for 99% of a race. The only downside is the initial jump may be a bit snappier with cleats forward but after that the speed is more sutainable with cleats back. Experiment with cleat position, it is well worth it.

[Waldo]

Cleat set-up:

Both cleats roughly mid-sole. Based strictly on subjective "feel" I had my left cleat set up ~7mm farther forward than the right.

1st ride:

Saturday, I rode 3:25 hours. I estimate I did 55 minutes of climbing. The rest of the ride was descending the hills I'd climbed and flat roads.

I did not have a computer, power meter, or HRM, so all impressions are subjective. At first the new position felt was quite strange. By the end of the ride it felt almost natural. It was very clear that quads and glutes were more engaged in the new position. Throughout the ride, when I looked at my feet, I saw the right foot wiggle side to side at the bottom of every pedal stroke as if the ball of the foot were looking for a pedal to push. Left foot did it too, but much less. It seemed there was less wiggling toward the end of the ride. I pushed much bigger (difference of 2-3 cogs at times) gears than I do usually. I attribute the ability to push bigger gears in part to oval chainrings (used for the first time in over a year) and in part to the new cleat position. I rode quite hard, but seemed to be able to make longer hard efforts and to recover from them quicker than with the old position. Lower cadence riding in bigger gears felt more natural than spinning lower gears. Even more so, as I tired.

Right hamstring hurt a bit at one point, but the pain went away and did not return. Tendons around the right inner ankle bone hurt for about 5 minutes during the middle of the ride, but the pain went away and did not return. Back spasmed a couple of times while climbing during the last 15 minutes of the ride. This was very surprising, as it never happens while riding. Perhaps I overdid it with big gears. As I mentioned earlier, the left knee is a bit achy.

I'll put a computer on this bike and use an HRM and see if I can get some data to support (or refute?) my impressions.

2d ride:

I rode again on Sunday for about 2 hours. Still no computer or HRM. About 1:15 climbing and 0:45 descending. There were virtually no flat roads on this ride.

During the ride, again, I noticed significant right foot wiggle. The right foot felt like it was flopping over the pedal spindle while the left foot remained quite stable, did not rotate over the spindle, and seemed to push through the power zone longer. During higher-cadence riding, the left foot felt much better. There was less perceived difference in pedaling efficiency during lower-cadence riding.

These differences in efficiency have led me to believe that I should move the right cleat forward to match the left. The carbon sole of the shoe is 28.5cm long and on the left shoe, the front tip of the cleat is 13.5cm from the front tip of the sole. The center of the cleat is 15.0cm from the front of the sole. The back of the cleat is 11.5cm in from the heel. The tip of the cleat is approximately 9cm in front of my inner ankle bone. The shoes are stock Rocket7 in size 45.5. I wear 44.5 in Vittorias.

I will move the right cleat forward and test that position. Steve Hogg advises that for arch fitting the cleat should be in the middle of the tarsometatarsal joint. However, if the middle of the tarsometatarsal joint is roughly under the ankle bone I believe it would feel like I'm pedaling with my heels rather than my arches. I tried that position during the initial set-up and it felt too strange and inefficient. Of course this new position feels strange...

Standing pedaling was uncomfortable and felt inefficient until I discovered that I should keep my weight back a bit and stand more over the saddle rather than over the bars. That improved things somewhat, but standing pedaling seems worse in arch cleats by as much as seated pedaling is better. Also, I really felt the pedals while standing. I felt that on my shoes, and likely on most others, there's insufficient material to provide adequate support in the arch part of the sole.

No pain or non-muscular discomfort after the second ride.

[rpm]

Vlad--

Thanks for taking the time to share your observations. Every case is different of course, but it's good to know your experiences. I wonder what Andy Pruitt has to say about arch cleats.

[bnewt07]

From a biomechanical and anatomic point of view (rather than personal experience) I'm not entirely convinced by the idea of an arch cleat.

The first reason is that the arch is not designed to weight-bear, it is designed to transfer weight and force horizontally. It is also designed to provide some cushioning and springing during walking as the foot flexes on impact and step-off. The ball of the foot however (and that row of joints) is designed to weight bear (as is the heel). I'd wonder about the medium and long term effects of significant arch loading from below with an arch cleat.

The second issue is power. Try sprinting on your heels. The additional leverage of your calf muscles is progressively lost as the pivot point moves closer to the heel. If a cleat is too far forward then the toes will obviously extend because that muscle group is not that strong but move to the ball of the foot and you are dealing with much stronger calf muscles. During cycling they help considerably to transfer the pedal power without the ankle flexing. I cannot understand how an arch cleat can increase power unless somebody has very weak calves (or a rigid ankle).

It seems to me that a big rearward shift in cleat position alters various things, including the knee and hip position realtive to the BB etc. Comparisons without shifting saddle and other geometry are therefore hard. Short term tests are going to feel 'different' and if you've foot or knee pain in a conventional set up then it may well feel better initially. We all know that most 'tweaks' seem to work to begin with!

I wonder if it is long term a 'better' option for more than a small minority.

[Waldo]

I'd wonder about the medium and long term effects of significant arch loading from below with an arch cleat.

The second issue is power. Try sprinting on your heels. The additional leverage of your calf muscles is progressively lost as the pivot point moves closer to the heel. If a cleat is too far forward then the toes will obviously extend because that muscle group is not that strong but move to the ball of the foot and you are dealing with much stronger calf muscles. During cycling they help considerably to transfer the pedal power without the ankle flexing. I cannot understand how an arch cleat can increase power unless somebody has very weak calves (or a rigid ankle).

Sprinting -- I agree this is a potential problem. So far, four rides into my arch cleat experiment, it seems that sprinting will be affected. It's harder to jump with cleats in the arch position and from what I've read, people have reported having a hard time with high-cadence sprinting. Reportedly, these problems are at least partially offset by ability to start the sprint in a higher gear and hold the speed longer. For those of us who don't (or can't) sprint -- time triallists, triathletes, randonneurs, recreational riders, etc. -- this won't be an issue.

It seems to me that a big rearward shift in cleat position alters various things, including the knee and hip position realtive to the BB etc. Comparisons without shifting saddle and other geometry are therefore hard. Short term tests are going to feel 'different' and if you've foot or knee pain in a conventional set up then it may well feel better initially. We all know that most 'tweaks' seem to work to begin with!

No question, we're entering a new biomechanical realm. Of course we have to change the saddle position and possibly bar position. No way I could ride with my cleats under arches with the old saddle height. But the reason to shift cleats to the arch is greater pedaling efficiency. My limited experience has been positive and the more I ride, the more used to it I become. For example, I am much better at riding standing up than I was three days ago. Obviously, this is still very short-term. I'll continue to report on how things go.

I wonder if it is long term a 'better' option for more than a small minority. Time will tell.

[bnewt07]

Thanks for the reply Vlad.

My point was that if a runner tries to sprint (or you try to climb stairs) on your heels it simply does not work because you've removed the power of your calf muscles from the equation. I was trying to illustrate how strong they are at keeping the ankle in position, and indeed flexing it downwards during pedalling. Anatomically I am struggling to see how an arch cleat can possibly be more efficient than a cleat further forward (within reason) because of the shorter lever for the calf muscles to act upon.

Like I said, my musings are theroretical not based on experience.

[Waldo]

Steve Hogg says that we experience energy loss while the ankle flexes as we push down when we wear shoes with cleats in the ball of the foot position. Calf and foot muscles cannot compensate for that flex unless a rider can hold the foot completely rigidly, which is very, very difficult. The fact that the lever with ball of the foot position is longer does not make up for the loss of power during flexion. With cleats under the arch there is no energy loss from ankle flexion, producing a more efficient lever. That's the theory. I am trying to apply it. :)

[MadRocketSci]

I think arch cleats are supposed to help spread the power in your stroke, so that the peaks are not as high as std. cleats, but the overal area under the power curve is about the same. The theory being that your avg power stays the same while minimizing the peaks, thus making it easier to sustain over time. This might only apply to seated pedaling. Does it help people who like to stand?

Isn't this the way we used to pedal as kids? I know I put the middle of my foot on the plastic pedal of my schwinn 5-speed.

[mcteague]

Isn't this the way we used to pedal as kids? I know I put the middle of my foot on the plastic pedal of my schwinn 5-speed.
That's what everyone who favors the arch cleat setup says. True that may be, but how many of us rode for hours over all kinds of terrain as a kid? Overall, I think the standard setup has stood the test of time for a good reason.

Tim McTeague

[Waldo]

This is the last time I'll post on this thread today. I swear. :)

Here is Joe Friel's blog entry on the subject of arch cleats. He has some empirical data supporting the arch cleat position.

http://www2.trainingbible.com/joesblog/2007/01/cleat-position.html

[Archibald]

http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/geekend/images/Alignment.jpg

[Simon Q]

Even if you don't go for arch cleats I urge anyone to try at least moving the cleats back if you are not there already. I have size 49 Sidis and the ball is set up set up 14 mm behind the spindle. Huge improvement. You may have to drop the saddle and possibly move a little forward when you make such a change.

[mcteague]

Even if you don't go for arch cleats I urge anyone to try at least moving the cleats back if you are not there already. I have size 49 Sidis and the ball is set up set up 14 mm behind the spindle. Huge improvement. You may have to drop the saddle and possibly move a little forward when you make such a change.
Guess you mean the ball of your foot is 14mm IN FRONT of the spindle. Moving the cleat back moves your foot forward on the pedal. Dr Andy Pruitt suggests those with large feet move the cleat so the ball of the foot is a bit in front of the spindle. My size 12s have been set that way for some time, just feels more stable.

Tim McTeague

[Simon Q]

Guess you mean the ball of your foot is 14mm IN FRONT of the spindle. Moving the cleat back moves your foot forward on the pedal. Dr Andy Pruitt suggests those with large feet move the cleat so the ball of the foot is a bit in front of the spindle. My size 12s have been set that way for some time, just feels more stable.

Tim McTeague

Yes, the ball is 14 mm in front. I agree, feels more stable and enlists upper leg more as a result. While many play around with the saddle, it is just as important to try differenet cleat positions IMHO.