Beginning Level Ride Leader Responsibilities

[SadieKate]

I haven't ridden with a club in years and years until two rides this summer.

Yesterday was the first time in 20+ years of serious cycling I've been in a group when an ambulance was needed. In my opinion the accident was preventable but too many bad things collided - an ignorant and arrogant friend who dragged a newbie to a club ride and then rode off the front abandoning her, a too high saddle so the newbie couldn't reach the pedals, no handling skills, stretched cables, and an open front brake QR just to start. I fixed the brakes and was working on getting the saddle lowered but I didn't know the course, so I didn't get the saddle lowered enough before the most technical descent of the day (one that a new rider shouldn't have been on).

I came along impromptu with my friend, but I was the one who stepped forward and served as mechanic and coach on a ride advertised for beginner/intermediates. I only stepped forward because the ride leader wasn't. She just kinda of tried to keep the group together but that was it. No proactive effort at teaching or running an observant eye over the equipment of the newbies. And we were heading for hilly areas with 90 degree descending turns.

I have very strong opinions about what a club ride leader should be capable of doing and willing to do when a ride is for beginners. Of all the forums you all seem to have the most level, practical and courteous advice. Another woman who is a regular participant will set the pace and route while the ride leader sweeps. She's only been riding a few years so her inexperience with club rides shows, but I know her well enough I could send an email with suggestions for leading club rides. The ride leader herself has only been road riding 3-4 years and I suspect this is her first time being a leader.

Can you help me with a bulleted list of one-liner do's and don'ts that I could send her? Just trying to create this list without skewing it with my personal take on the matter, let alone my frustration and anger over the cause of yesterday's incident. Plus, one-liners will help me keep under control my desire to write a tome about what went wrong yesterday.

FYI, no serious head or spinal injuries, "just" a seriously fractured tibia.

[Fixed]

bro that sucks glad she is going to recover though

a lot of solo riding before trying a group ride
then ride with small group maybe 1,2,3, riders learn rotation and drafting
bike shop should get new rider somewhere close to a fit .imho
cheers :beer:

[goonster]

FYI, no serious head or spinal injuries, "just" a seriously fractured tibia.

Yikes. That's one person who won't become a club ride regular any time soon.

Honestly, the ride leader is not a mechanic or shepherd. The blame here lies primarily with the "friend" who brought a new rider to a club ride and then abandoned them. That's so much of a no-no, it's really a no(10E6).

I think that the very basics of bicycle riding (no grossly misadjusted saddle, tight QR, inflated tires) are a prerequisite for even the most basic of club rides, i.e. the "ice cream rides" catering primarily to eight year-olds. While the safety of all riders is paramount, the ride leader's responsibility is first and foremost to her regulars.

I led beginner rides for a couple of years, and this scenario (minus injury) occurred rarely. When it did, I delegated responsibility (for either the group or the straggler) to a trusted, experienced rider.

So, here's the condensed version:

1. DON'T accept riders who won't be able to keep up
2. DON'T abandon stragglers
3. DO feel responsible for the safety of riders in your group

[SadieKate]

What's a 10E6?

Does the ride leader need to assess someone pretty quickly though and refuse to let them ride with the group? What if you discover mid-ride that someone shouldn't be there. You can't abandon them mid-route. When do you "not accept them?"

The beginner bought her bike at another shop. There was no way to know the bike wasn't fitted properly until the group started riding but it was a grossly bad fit that affected safety, not just comfort.

Yes, the friend shouldn't have brought her but the friend obviously abandoned her responsibilities and stuck the ride leader with them, but the ride leader didn't nothing other than not abandon the newbie. I saw the saddle height issue within minutes of dropping behind her while the ride leader had been there for 90 mins. You have someone that can't keep their feet on the pedals or ride a straight line at all and you're in the hills, you got serious problems.

You can't force someone to read a website and comply with pre-requisites. You and I know to do these things, but a newbie doesn't. What do you do when you have someone like this in a group?

In my own group, I would have become far more aggressive at lowering the saddle and teaching her descending skills earlier in the ride -- or insisting that the friend take her home. But it wasn't my ride and I was a newcomer to the group, just happened to know a couple of the other women. I know where the blame lies, but how do you advise someone on how to prevent these things in the future?

[Ginger]

Yes. I'm sorry.

The blame lies with the new rider herself.

At some point people need to take responsibility for their own actions.

She had to be aware that she couldn't reach the pedals.

A quick rundown of what level of riding ability is required at the beginning of the ride by the ride leader would be helpful.

It's hard not to blame people when someone gets injured...but this sounds like the rider herself needed to take some responsibility for her own safety.

[Orin]

I haven't ridden with a club in years and years until two rides this summer.

Yesterday was the first time in 20+ years of serious cycling I've been in a group when an ambulance was needed. In my opinion the accident was preventable but too many bad things collided - an ignorant and arrogant friend who dragged a newbie to a club ride and then rode off the front abandoning her, a too high saddle so the newbie couldn't reach the pedals, no handling skills, stretched cables, and an open front brake QR just to start. I fixed the brakes and was working on getting the saddle lowered but I didn't know the course, so I didn't get the saddle lowered enough before the most technical descent of the day (one that a new rider shouldn't have been on).

I came along impromptu with my friend, but I was the one who stepped forward and served as mechanic and coach on a ride advertised for beginner/intermediates. I only stepped forward because the ride leader wasn't. She just kinda of tried to keep the group together but that was it. No proactive effort at teaching or running an observant eye over the equipment of the newbies. And we were heading for hilly areas with 90 degree descending turns.

I have very strong opinions about what a club ride leader should be capable of doing and willing to do when a ride is for beginners. Of all the forums you all seem to have the most level, practical and courteous advice. Another woman who is a regular participant will set the pace and route while the ride leader sweeps. She's only been riding a few years so her inexperience with club rides shows, but I know her well enough I could send an email with suggestions for leading club rides. The ride leader herself has only been road riding 3-4 years and I suspect this is her first time being a leader.

Can you help me with a bulleted list of one-liner do's and don'ts that I could send her? Just trying to create this list without skewing it with my personal take on the matter, let alone my frustration and anger over the cause of yesterday's incident. Plus, one-liners will help me keep under control my desire to write a tome about what went wrong yesterday.

FYI, no serious head or spinal injuries, "just" a seriously fractured tibia.

The works:

http://www.cascade.org/EandR/pdf/Ride_Leader_Guidelines.pdf

Subject to the following copyright restrictions...

You may reproduce part or all of this booklet without permission, but you must identify the source as the Ride Leader Guidelines and give credit to the Cascade Bicycle Club, Seattle, Washington, USA.

If you reproduce a substantial portion of this booklet, we ask that you make a contribution to the Cascade Bicycle Club at the address listed below. The suggested contribution is $1.00 for each copy you make. In addition, printed copies are available for $4.00 each.

Copyright © 1997 Cascade Bicycle Club. Last revised July 11, 1997.


Personally, I'll try to ask new riders how much they've ridden and how fast and adjust the route as appropriate, but that's for a ride with no pre-advertised route. I also ask the riders to look after each other and let me know if someone is off the back.

Please don't expect a ride leader to be a bicycle mechanic or bicycle fit specialist. They aren't.

Orin.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . if you can PM me with your e-mail, I can send you a pdf of the ride leader's guide that we have here for our local club, the Mohawk Hudson Cycling Club. It is comprehensive and very informative.

As for quick tips, if you are leading and do a re-group, don't let everyone take off as soon as the last straggler arrives. Give the poor schlepp a few minutes to catch his breath before you all take off. After all, if he couldn't keep up before, he sure ain't gonna keep up if you all take off again as soon as he arrives.

BBD

[Ginger]

Of course, what do you do when you have someone like that in the group? You stop the whole group, get the new rider and bike sorted out, assign a few willing riders to shepherd the rider through the course, and restart. Yes. It embarrasses the new rider, causes the group to get antsy and stupid, but it helps prevent accidents.

This applies even if you aren't group leader. I'll step on freak'n toes if someone's a danger to themselves or others. I'd rather have people pissed at me than have to call an ambulance.

[Fixed]

what ginger said ...she's so smart ..imho
cheers :beer:

[Ginger]

I'll also say that the new rider gets over the embarrassment by the end of the ride when things are "better on the bike" and they can actually ride the thing...

Dave, you're absolutely right. It takes three minutes to recover from exertion. Give the new rider their three minutes.

Fixed;
You're so nice.
I'm really just selfish.
I'd rather spend my time riding than waiting for an ambulance.

[SadieKate]

This applies even if you aren't group leader. I'll step on freak'n toes if someone's a danger to themselves or others. I'd rather have people pissed at me than have to call an ambulance.I was definitely stepping on freakin' toes but I wasn't stepping on them soon enough. I had only dropped to the back so I could ride a bit with everybody. Seemed a kind of social thing to do on a slow ride with only 7 people. Glad to know there are kindred bold spirits out there.

The run down on abilities at the beginning would help. This would also help get the ride leaders to consider the route since it wasn't pre-set.

Yeah, the rider herself bears responsibility. It amazes me how shy people are to speak up and say they're not comfortable with the situation. She was very trusting that her friend had put her in the right situation. Of course, there was a unanimous group vote that the friend was a jerk. I didn't even tell you about the out of control sobbing by the friend or her rudeness to the highway patrol officer (or that she wore an iPod until we all nixed that).

BumbleBeeDave, watch for a PM and thanks. We definitely don't do show and blows when I'm riding with a no-drop group, beginner or otherwise. That's the first place I stomp on toes. :)

[Firenze]

Rant

If the ride is “for beginners” then the route should reflect that as well as the level of support offered to the beginners that show up. If a beginner shows up at a regular club ride not designed for beginners then they should be directed to another ride.

If it becomes evident during a ride that someone is over their head, the ride leader should make sure the beginner is helped back to the ride starting point.

If you aren’t willing to sacrifice your ride to the needs of someone in trouble, then don’t lead a ride. Newbie’s need to learn somewhere. Much of what is common knowledge to experienced riders is not intuitive. Beginners often don't know they are over their heads and don't ask for help.

End of rant – all of course my somewhat strongly held opinion.
Arch

[Ginger]

I didn't catch that there were only seven people on the ride!

wow.

Another thing we do on our group rides on the trail is to always have a sweep. This pretty much takes care of someone watching the newbies riding with the group and also takes care of that "so and so isn't out yet, do we leave?" type thing at the trailhead after the ride.

If the ride leader can't find someone competent to sweep?
They do it themselves.

Much less fun for them, and the group has to wait where the trail forks, but it works.

[swoop]

good intentions can lead to some serious injuries. sounds like a good weekly skills clinic in a big empty lot with a grass field nearby is in order. think of group rides as a more advanced skill....

too bad abut the injuries. sounds a bit like the blind leading the blind.... its very very dangerous out there and very easy to get killed.

[Ginger]

Oh, another thing to think about, but that isn't always possible, is to have a member of the National Bike Patrol ride along with the group.

Many states have chapters and these patrollers have first aid training, carry equipment, have experience and need to get their hours in on the trail.

[SadieKate]

The official leader was the sweep and was riding directly behind this newbie -- and not really doing anything except making sure that we did stop at certain intersections to re-group. So she had plenty of time to assess that the rider was out of control most of the time.

The woman in front was pretty much deciding on the route and the official leader would agree.

The official leader says she "offered several times" to shorten the ride but the rider didn't want to. My personal opinion is that at some point you stomp on toes. :) The newbie should NEVER have been taken on that descent at that point in her learning curve.

[Ginger]

"offering to shorten a ride" My oh my...

Newbies don't want to be a burden. The ride leader has to assess the situation and make the decision for them.
And you don't say you're shortening it because of them. You just do it.
Newbies don't know what they don't know. And they don't know how far X is.


If it's a shop sponsored ride, the shop should have a manual for ride leaders spelling that out. And, not that it helps much, should require ride leaders to have each participant sign a waiver.


I'd argue that the newbie should have been asked to walk the section. "I know you're excited, but at this point in the ride, you're probably a little tired and it would be better to walk down this. Never be afraid to walk an obstacle on the trail."

[goonster]

What's a 10E6?


The "E" is for exponent, so that's one meeeeellion. ;)

What do you do when you have someone like this in a group?

Find another rider to either escort the n00b back to base, or lead the group for the rest of the ride while you do it yourself.

You stop the whole group, get the new rider and bike sorted out, assign a few willing riders to shepherd the rider through the course, and restart. Yes. It embarrasses the new rider, causes the group to get antsy and stupid, but it helps prevent accidents.

Personally, I always tried to avoid upbrading and embarrassing people in public, since I believe that would discourage them from coming back. I tried to sort things out discretely one-on-one, without disrupting the rest of the ride. The rider is usually plenty embarrassed by situation itself. Just my style, I guess.

Don't know how it is at other clubs, but I've never seen a true "beginner" group. The groups are organized by avg. speed, and the slowest groups are made up of riders who may not be super fit or experienced, but who still ride pretty regularly.

I quite enjoyed leading the slower groups, and stopped only because of a change in work location. An enjoyable first club ride for a n00b rider, where she is encouraged without condescension, has a huge positive impact, imo.

[Orin]

good intentions can lead to some serious injuries. sounds like a good weekly skills clinic in a big empty lot with a grass field nearby is in order. think of group rides as a more advanced skill....


Funny you should mention that...

Sammamish Valley Cycle (http://www.sammamishcycle.com) in the Seattle area are advertising a Basic Riding Skills Clinic in a couple of weeks.

More info... (http://www.wenzelcoaching.com/Road%20bike%20skills%20-%20Sammamish%20Aug%2011.pdf)

Orin.

[scottfa]

Geez what a mess. It pays to never overstimate what a new rider knows. This rider may have thought that she was fitted to the bike, she bought it at a bike store( they should get a copy of the medical report).
Let me give a a good example of a ride leader. I am from Ann Arbor and had occasion to be in Waldor, Maryland and contacted the local club for a ride. Yep, 66 mile B ride. Cool! I am a B+/A- rider so I am ahead with two other riders and during the ride each of our cell phones go off in order. It is the ride leader letting us know that off course.We weren't but that was OK. About 5 minutes later I tasted pavement and really screwed up my leg and arm. The ride leader came up with another rider who had some medical supplies and we continued the ride. The next day the ride leader contacted me via email to see how I was doing. How is that for a ride leader? :)

[Ginger]

The "E" is for exponent, so that's one meeeeellion. ;)



Find another rider to either escort the n00b back to base, or lead the group for the rest of the ride while you do it yourself.



Personally, I always tried to avoid upbrading and embarrassing people in public, since I believe that would discourage them from coming back. I tried to sort things out discretely one-on-one, without disrupting the rest of the ride. The rider is usually plenty embarrassed by situation itself. Just my style, I guess.

Don't know how it is at other clubs, but I've never seen a true "beginner" group. The groups are organized by avg. speed, and the slowest groups are made up of riders who may not be super fit or experienced, but who still ride pretty regularly.

I quite enjoyed leading the slower groups, and stopped only because of a change in work location. An enjoyable first club ride for a n00b rider, where she is encouraged without condescension, has a huge positive impact, imo.

Nobody said anything about upbraiding anyone. You certainly don't say: Hey stupid, your brakes are undone."

I've introduced many riders to the sport. Riders who haven't been on a bike in years, riders who had never ridden a trail, I've dealt with all sorts of bikes and issues. I always saw it as giving back to the sport I enjoy.
The way I address it here: To an experienced rider asking for suggestions is not the same tone as I deal with it out on the trail. Getting people uptight on a trail just leads to crashes.

And experienced riders in the group will realize what's up. They'll be patient.

[SadieKate]

I find it very interesting that I live in a hotbed of cycling and road skills clinics are virtually no where to be found. It's just ridiculous.

[Orin]

Just looked at the activities for the clinic I posted earlier...

1. Bike check: brakes, straight wheels, handlebars don’t drop, headsets smooth
2. Warm-up: Everyone riding around a large oval
3. Hairy Edge: Straight line, Gutter riding, between double cone line
4. Looking backwards, over both shoulders
5. No-hands: Progress from up-and-down to jacket on, off, open energy bar
6. Pick up bottles
7. Bunny-hop: Front wheel, back wheel, both wheels.
8. Emergency slow or stop: butt back, arms straight, shoulders low, hard front
brake, mild rear, no skid
9. Road side repair: changing a flat, replace chain
10. Ascending and Descending techniques: control bike, proper position, high
speed turning
11. Bumping: progress from touch w/ hand, elbow, shoulder to hard lean
12. Sumo-cycling: Rope circle

This is a basic road skills clinic!?

Orin.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . glad you got the ride guide PDF.

One other thing that I don't think is in there that you might point out to your lackadaisical ride leader friend is the insurance liability aspect to all of this. If she is leading a ride and someone is hurt--as happened in this instance--she could easily get sued. If it's a store sponsored ride the store could easily get sued. Of course, if you point this out their response might just be to cancel the rides, but I guess you have to ask yourself which is worse--having to organize your own properly run "private" ride or having somebody get hurt like this last time around.

BBD

[goonster]

Nobody said anything about upbraiding anyone. You certainly don't say: Hey stupid, your brakes are undone."

Sorry. Poor choice of words. Didn't mean it like that. :)

[jeffg]

but it reminds me why I don't ride with groups.

I should shore up my own skills, and a group would help with that. On the other hand, I have finished at least a dozen organized rides with up to 8500 folks descending through the Alps or Pyrenees and I have been fortunate enough never to crash or take anyone out. Any group ride I have been on at home seems to include folks who are more reckless than your typical California Triple Crown double century rider or French/Italian amateur ... Groups just seem more of a danger than an asset to me

[Orin]

. . . glad you got the ride guide PDF.

One other thing that I don't think is in there that you might point out to your lackadaisical ride leader friend is the insurance liability aspect to all of this. If she is leading a ride and someone is hurt--as happened in this instance--she could easily get sued. If it's a store sponsored ride the store could easily get sued. Of course, if you point this out their response might just be to cancel the rides, but I guess you have to ask yourself which is worse--having to organize your own properly run "private" ride or having somebody get hurt like this last time around.

BBD

Yes, that's why one local store won't sponsor rides, though you can meet in their parking lot if you want.

The Cascade Bicycle Club ride signup sheet has a big liability disclaimer:

"I understand and agree that neither Cascade Bicycle Club, its officers or agents, nor the ride leader(s), or other volunteers, may be held
liable in any way for any occurrence or accident in connection with said ride, and I further agree to save and hold harmless the Cascade
Bicycle Club, its officers and agents, and the ride leader(s) from any claim by me, my family, estate, heirs or assigns arising out of my
participation in this ride."

Of course this is there for the club's insurance and I don't for one minute believe that it would stop somone suing...

Orin.

[Karin Kirk]

Was this a mountain bike ride or a road ride? I'm confused, not that it matters much, but your description of the downhills makes it sound like an off-road ride.

Here's what I do:
Before we leave the parking lot, I give newbies a quick interview to hear about their background and motivation. At some point early in the ride, I'll ride near them and do a quick look-over to check out fit and anything else obvious. Note that I don't do this for every person in the group, and I don't do any mechanical checks. I can't do all that and lead the ride, so I only focus on new folks.

If someone is instantly off the back or is otherwise way over their head, I try to come up with a plan B. My favorite option it to ask a trusted veteran who won't mind missing out on the rest of the ride to accompany them back to safety, and maybe give them some pointers along the way. That works 90% of the time.

If I'm leading a beginner ride I always have a multi-tool handy and I pretty much insist on making changes to things that compromise safety. Most commonly I find my self adjusting helmets, saddle height and (for mountain bikers) loosening clipless pedals for newbies so they can learn to clip out.

Only one time have I not let a rider start a ride. She was brand new, was wearing sneakers and riding a hybrid, and she showed up to a team road ride. I recommended that she do a different road ride that is aimed at beginner women, and luckily there were good options for her, so I didn't just have to tell her "sorry" and send her home.

Occasionally I go on recreational women's road rides of which I am not the leader. At times I want to scratch my eyes out when I see the fit issues and safety antics. The ride leaders are all inexperienced (except one) and they aren't cyclists and they've never been on club rides to learn the ropes. I've tried several different methods to help set up rides or clinics to teach the ride leaders some cycling skills, but they are not interested. So I go on those rides only when my luck feels strong, and I really keep an eye out for my own safety. If I see something really sketchy, I don't hesitate to jump right in and address it, but I have learned that I can't change the way those rides are run so now I avoid them mostly.

Sadie, my guess is the reason why your ride leader didn't address the fit issue is because she didn't have the experienced eye to see that it was a problem. Things that jump out to us may not even be noticeable to someone who's new to cycling.

One last thing Sadie, if you want some road skills clinics in your area, then what you have to do is organize them! You don't have to lead them yourself necessarily, but generally the way to get something like that to happen is to step up and do it.

[Karin Kirk]

Geez, since when have I become so long-winded?

But another thing I insist on for any of my rides is that everyone rides with their hands on the hoods or the drops when they are in the group (except climbing). So many women and new riders cruise along on the tops with the brakes a mile away from their hands. As of this spring, I just won't allow that. My line is that if they can't ride comfortably on the hoods, then their fit is wrong and they need to fix it.

[BumbleBeeDave]

Geez, since when have I become so long-winded?

Dave's already told us all about it. Uh, I mean . . . :eek:

BBD

[Ginger]

Geez, since when have I become so long-winded?

But another thing I insist on for any of my rides is that everyone rides with their hands on the hoods or the drops when they are in the group (except climbing). So many women and new riders cruise along on the tops with the brakes a mile away from their hands. As of this spring, I just won't allow that. My line is that if they can't ride comfortably on the hoods, then their fit is wrong and they need to fix it.
'cause it's a safety issue and you have experience and you're a teacher and someone asked.

:)

that probably got the ball rolling.

[Ti Designs]

But another thing I insist on for any of my rides is that everyone rides with their hands on the hoods or the drops when they are in the group (except climbing). So many women and new riders cruise along on the tops with the brakes a mile away from their hands. As of this spring, I just won't allow that. My line is that if they can't ride comfortably on the hoods, then their fit is wrong and they need to fix it.

That's funny, I spend every fall trying to get the new riders to give up the death grip on their brake levers...

[Fixed]

bro that's cos you have a bunch of fearless bike racing college students that need to stay away from the brakes imho
cheers :beer:

[Ti Designs]

bro that's cos you have a bunch of fearless bike racing college students that need to stay away from the brakes imho
cheers :beer:

No, I have about 40 new riders, half of them don't own the bikes they're on, with twitchy fingers on the brake levers ready to take down the people behind them.

Brakes in a group rider are better at causing trouble than they are at getting you out of it. New riders are nervous and they're eyes are mounted in the front of their head. The combination makes for some ugly results.

[barry1021]

but it reminds me why I don't ride with groups.

I should shore up my own skills, and a group would help with that. On the other hand, I have finished at least a dozen organized rides with up to 8500 folks descending through the Alps or Pyrenees and I have been fortunate enough never to crash or take anyone out. Any group ride I have been on at home seems to include folks who are more reckless than your typical California Triple Crown double century rider or French/Italian amateur ... Groups just seem more of a danger than an asset to me


+1

b21

[SadieKate]

I've got my reading cut off out for me! I just downloaded BumbleBeeDave's guidelines (17 pages from the Mohawk-Hudson Cycling Club) and Orin's Cascade Bicycle Club's doc (47?) pages. Bedtime reading, oh boy.

Another thing - the woman at the front of the group that had essentially chosen the route? No signals to speak of. At the beginning of the ride she led me right over a pile of lumpy asphalt and I should have known right then that her hands were frozen to the bars. I backed way off so I had reaction time, but, do you think the ride leader ever said anything? Nooooo, probably because the rest of us were constantly asking "which way now? and then signaling.

I may never go on another beginner ride again unless I'm the leader. Last year I led 14 unknown newbies on a unknown 50 mile training ride for a metric with the assistance of one co-leader who was able to make the ride only at the last minute (yeah, I had a bone to pick with the person who decided I could do this on an unfamiliar route). No one had ever talked to this group about skills, signaling, braking, descending, rules of the road, no nothing, and they were already at the 50 mile mark in the schedule! I was hoarse by the end of the ride but everyone made it back safely, after enthusiastically and unanimously raising their hands every time I said "who wants to know about X?" Exhausting but extremely rewarding day. And, thank goodness for my friend who showed up to help. We flew by the seat of our pants as we had expected the group to have actually had some skills and group ride coaching. We expected to talk more about hydration and nutrition for longer rides and instead we got to talk about such things as riding only on the right hand side of the road and how to shift. :crap:

I really appreciate all of the opinions and generous offerings. I'll do my reading, see where I need to add in all of your one-liners, and share.

One of the points to offer might be that the ride leader should personally talk to all guests ahead of time rather than just taking the word of one rider who is inviting another unknown rider. Can't do much about party-crashers (yeah, like me) but when someone calls and says "can I bring a friend who is learning?" the leader could ask for that person to give her a call directly. For this ride, the leader did want sign-ups ahead of time and was aware that this two-some was coming.

Ti Designs, it's not just that their eyes are frozen forward it's that they're frozen about 2 feet in front of their front tire at most. I think part of the cause of this accident was lack of anticipation (looking far forward) and she probably didn't know how to use her front brake properly or was afraid to use it at all.

Thanks, everyone, again.

[SadieKate]

For a couple of you, periodically riding in groups has brought me wonderful friendships and experiences I would never pass up. Even on yesterday's ride I met a woman that would be a wonderful addition to our normal circle of riders. Sometimes it's worth the foray just to meet new people. :beer:

[SadieKate]

Ha! My friend just called as she was leaving the hospital after visiting our newbie rider. Turns out the reason why "Newbie" had such a calm and positive attitude throughout the ordeal is that she's a high school math teacher. Another teacher was there and commented that everyone is wondering how the pole survived. :p

[Orin]

Ti Designs, it's not just that their eyes are frozen forward it's that they're frozen about 2 feet in front of their front tire at most. I think part of the cause of this accident was lack of anticipation (looking far forward) and she probably didn't know how to use her front brake properly or was afraid to use it at all.



Hmmm. I don't know how about this particular accident, but rear brakes and beginners can be a bad combination...

Rider panics, puts foot down and clamps on rear brake. Foot gets under pedal as they fall sideways. Broken tibia and fibula. Seen it happen at walking pace.

Orin.

[SadieKate]

How many beginners have you heard say they never use the front brake because "someone" told them they'd endo if they did?

[Fixed]

No, I have about 40 new riders, half of them don't own the bikes they're on, with twitchy fingers on the brake levers ready to take down the people behind them.

Brakes in a group rider are better at causing trouble than they are at getting you out of it. New riders are nervous and they're eyes are mounted in the front of their head. The combination makes for some ugly results.
bro i agree with you
cheers :beer:

[Lifelover]

Yes. I'm sorry.

The blame lies with the new rider herself.

At some point people need to take responsibility for their own actions.

She had to be aware that she couldn't reach the pedals.

A quick rundown of what level of riding ability is required at the beginning of the ride by the ride leader would be helpful.

It's hard not to blame people when someone gets injured...but this sounds like the rider herself needed to take some responsibility for her own safety.

+1

Road riding is incredibly rewarding but it is also just as dangerous. While the ride leader should do everything in their power to make it a safe ride they should never be EXPECTED to deal with fit and mechanical issues or rider skills for that matter.

Expecting anymore and depending on a leader (or anyone for that matter) for your own safety is flat out irresponsible.

It is certainly a great thing to critique an incident like this to try and learn from it but don't expect to read a 17 page guide and never have something like that happen again.

The issue with the hand position on the brakes is a great example of how it is in no way cut and dry. I get the impression that Karin and Ti are both VERY experienced riders that without question know what they are talking about. Most of the folks on this forum fully understand each of their position and knows that on some level they are both right. However, to a new rider I could see how they would be totally confused on what is the right way to ride.

I hope she is able to heal enough (physically and emotionally) to ride again.

[SadieKate]

Deleted comment. Still irked at the criticism of me trying to help two inexperience ride leaders but I've thought better of saying anything more.

[Lifelover]

Deleted comment. Still irked at the criticism of me trying to help two inexperience ride leaders but I've thought better of saying anything more.


I did not mean to criticize you for trying to help. I think it's great that you did what you could and I wish more people were that proactive. Woman tend to be much better at this than men.

The only constructive thing I have to offer is that no one should depend on any ride leader for their safety. There is too much at risk.

[SadieKate]

It is certainly a great thing to critique an incident like this to try and learn from it but don't expect to read a 17 page guide and never have something like that happen again.Thanks, lifelover. This comment just reads like you think I have rose-colored glasses when I'm looking for a way to diplomatically help two inexperienced ride leaders without making them angry. A 17 page guide collecting the wisdom of a bike club over the years is going to do it for more comprehensively and coherently than I ever could.

[Ginger]

SadieKate,
Was this a road ride or a trail ride. I had the impression it was a trail ride? My comments have been with that in mind. Some apply to the road, but perhaps not the "teach the newbie to walk the obstacle" bit...

Ginger

[SadieKate]

It was a road ride, but the comments are still appreciated and will help me formulate a quick list. I mountainbike also so it never hurts to hear it all. I'm much more likely to find myself with a newbie mountainbiking but then it is usually a friend I've invited out for that purpose and a little one-on-one time. Stupid Ride Leader Tricks can then all be blamed on me. :D

I think I want to share the two big documents with the two leaders but have a short list ready to go at the top of my head if I ever find myself in this situation again. I know I'll be in conversation with at least one of them again so one liners are a good way to be succinct, get my point across with a friendly tone and not start a long dissertation that just makes their eyes glaze over. :rolleyes:

And it sure doesn't hurt as a refresher for me.

[SadieKate]

Was this a mountain bike ride or a road ride? I'm confused, not that it matters much, but your description of the downhills makes it sound like an off-road ride.Sorry, I realized I didn't answer this until Ginger gently prodded me.

Road ride but it's in the Sierra foothills which means you can have these nice gentle rolling curves perfect for learning and then find a steep 90 degree doozy like this one thrown in there. The crash ocurred in front of a home and the owner came out and helped. He estimated that the ambulance had to be called a half dozen times a year on these curve. I know both leaders had ridden the road before and neither one gave any warning to anyone.

One last thing Sadie, if you want some road skills clinics in your area, then what you have to do is organize them! You don't have to lead them yourself necessarily, but generally the way to get something like that to happen is to step up and do it.I know. You may have seen the post where I ended up teaching so much during a 50 mile ride last year. Boy, was I tired the next day with riding up and back and up and back, sprinting here and there. I recommend shorter rides and smaller groups for clinics -- and told the ride series coordinator the same so she couldn't misunderstand. :rolleyes:

[Karin Kirk]

You may have seen the post where I ended up teaching so much during a 50 mile ride last year. Boy, was I tired the next day with riding up and back and up and back, sprinting here and there. I recommend shorter rides and smaller groups for clinics -- and told the ride series coordinator the same so she couldn't misunderstand. :rolleyes:

Yes, from that and your other posts I can tell you're a get-it-done kind of person, which is why I made that suggestion! But that idea is a topic for another time. Meanwhile, you've got your hands full dealing with the aftermath of this ride. I hope the injured rider recovers and is able to maintain her positive outlook. No doubt this will be a learning experience for everyone.

Hang in there!

[Karin Kirk]

No, I have about 40 new riders, half of them don't own the bikes they're on, with twitchy fingers on the brake levers ready to take down the people behind them.

Brakes in a group rider are better at causing trouble than they are at getting you out of it. New riders are nervous and they're eyes are mounted in the front of their head. The combination makes for some ugly results.

Yes, of course. Too much brake can be just as bad as no brake.
My point is not for them to be on the brakes, per se, but to learn how to hold the bars and to get used to the idea that your hands need to be near (not on!) the brakes. Women, especially, seem to be fond of grabbing the bars at the bend between the tops and the hoods, rotating their wrists the "wrong" way (with the inside of the forearm facing forward - hard to describe!), and locking their arms. What I mostly after is to discourage that riding position for a number of reasons. At a minimum I try to raise people's awareness of the idea that hands on the hoods is the default position when you are riding with other people around you.

The actual use of the brake is another matter, and of course that requires education and training just like every other topic on the bike.

[Orin]

Road ride but it's in the Sierra foothills which means you can have these nice gentle rolling curves perfect for learning and then find a steep 90 degree doozy like this one thrown in there. The crash ocurred in front of a home and the owner came out and helped. He estimated that the ambulance had to be called a half dozen times a year on these curve. I know both leaders had ridden the road before and neither one gave any warning to anyone.



We have a road like that... I don't usually use it because we've had a couple of 'incidents'. It's a left hander at the bottom of a hill and there's almost always gravel on it. If I do use it, I do my best to warn everyone at the top.

The other way isn't much better - though I'm told that if you miss the corner, the blackberries are a relatively soft landing :eek: I did warn them there was a nasty corner at the bottom on that occasion and the rider concerned was very experienced.

Orin.

[chuckred]

Team Evergreen Ride Leader Guidelines (http://www.teamevergreen.org/HTML_MAIN_PAGES/links.html)

SadieKate---

Here's the form, including ride leader guidelines our club uses...

Pretty simple, relies on common sense, but has some guidelines.

Our club rides range from "casual" - oriented towards the beginner, no drops, etc. to Difficult, 7+ hour rides. The descriptions of the rides are pretty clear, and the difficulties are well spelled out.

Based on your story, I would add a suggestion to use a "buddy system" - if someone is new and inexperienced, they should identify themselves - they may need additional help with route, etc. And, if they have a friend who brought them the friend should be responsible to help him/her out.

Hope it's helpful...

[Ti Designs]

My point is not for them to be on the brakes, per se, but to learn how to hold the bars and to get used to the idea that your hands need to be near (not on!) the brakes. Women, especially, seem to be fond of grabbing the bars at the bend between the tops and the hoods, rotating their wrists the "wrong" way (with the inside of the forearm facing forward - hard to describe!), and locking their arms. What I mostly after is to discourage that riding position for a number of reasons. At a minimum I try to raise people's awareness of the idea that hands on the hoods is the default position when you are riding with other people around you.


Sounds like the fitter failed to do their job. Drop bars have their shape for a reason, the three basic positions have a reason, and there are some positions that people fall into that I'll warn against while doing a fitting. The fitting is the time for this because all other distractions are taken away and the rider can think about just what they're doing and what it's doing to them. Take the two positions I always warn about: hands halfway to the hoods with the arms inverted and hyperextended at the elbows - women do tend to fall into that. There's no suspension to their upper body, there's a direct line of transfer from the front wheel to their neck, and they're cheating their body weight off the pedals. I point that out in a fitting, they think about it for a few seconds, they think about what hurts on a long ride, and this light bulb goes on - oh, that's the problem! The other position is where the bars are rotated up and the levers are also tilted up. You'll see guys with straight arms and locked elbows with half their body weight on their bars - and they complain that their neck hurts and they need lower gears. Wrong! they need a fitter who both puts them in a good position on the bike AND EXPLAINS HOW TO USE THAT POSITION!!!

When a rider shows up for their first group ride it's NOT the time to start giving them pointers on body position. You're throwing a million new things at them, they have to keep up, they need to watch the road, they need to draft, they can't run into the wheel in front of them, they need to... Most people I know can't walk and chew gum at the same time, what make you think they do all that while riding a bike?

[SadieKate]

What is it with the locked arms? It just isn't comfortable to begin with.

In this particular case of body postion, I just would have been happy if she hadn't spent so much time coasting on her butt with both feet out in the air as she looked down trying to find her pedals for the umpteenth time. It was like a child on her old brother's bike.

[Karin Kirk]

Sounds like the fitter failed to do their job.

Shocking, isn't it?

[weisan]

This is a good thread. :)