How to tell whether someone is clean

[I Want Sachs?]

I don't quite buy what Versus announcers are claiming as evidence of doping vs clean riders.

They claim that by looking at Rasmussen and Evans when they finish the race stages with hilltop finishes, the exhausted Evans proves cleanliness and bouncy Dane is dirty. This does not make sense to me. There are many riders such as Moreni who finished way down and exhausted despite doping. Vino finshed more than 20 minutes down one day after testing positive for blood doping. (his positive test came after TT, day before his disastrous ride)

I think it is totally irrelevant how one looks. I don't have answer on how to differentiate, but looking fatigues is definitely not proof of cleanliness. Just saying.

[dauwhe]

+1

I look exhausted when I get out of bed this morning. I probably (momentarily) look fresh at the end of a 600k brevet, because I'm so happy I finished!

Dave

[Nick H.]

I think they just interpret what they see through the filter of their own preconceptions. They all 'know' Evans is clean. They all 'know' that Rasmussen is a liar. So they see what they want to see!

For what it's worth I've been collating the circumstantial evidence against Contador. I'm really worried this year's result is going to be similar to last year's - i.e. most of the people who follow the sport closely will think the winner doped.

Here it is:

- He was a Puerto 'name'. BUT according to the ASO he shouldn't have been. He was mentioned in a recorded phone call, but it soon emerged the callers were discussing his race results, not his non-existent dealings with Fuentes

- He had a blood clot

- He is a client of Rominger, whose other clients include Vino, Kessler and Stinky****s

- He was managed by Saiz for 2 years at Liberty Seguros

- He is now managed by Bruyneel, who 'probably' doped at ONCE under Saiz and whose riders all seem to fail a test after they leave his team, suggesting that he's a wily old fox who knows more about doping than the other DeeEsses

- He attacked Rasmussen (another 'circumstantial' doper) in a superhuman manner

[Dekonick]

Looking exhausted is often a sign of 'doping'

Smoke crack for 4 days in a row ... see what happens...

[Bud_E]

I don't quite buy what Versus announcers are claiming as evidence of doping vs clean riders.

They claim that by looking at Rasmussen and Evans when they finish the race stages with hilltop finishes, the exhausted Evans proves cleanliness and bouncy Dane is dirty. This does not make sense to me. There are many riders such as Moreni who finished way down and exhausted despite doping. Vino finshed more than 20 minutes down one day after testing positive for blood doping. (his positive test came after TT, day before his disastrous ride)

I think it is totally irrelevant how one looks. I don't have answer on how to differentiate, but looking fatigues is definitely not proof of cleanliness. Just saying.

Phil and Paul and Bobke are playing dumb about this whole thing. They're smart dudes and I have to believe they could come up with something better than this nonsense. With the way bigtime pro cycling is going, their livelihood is threatened so they've chosen to tread softly through this mess.

[A.L.Breguet]

I hear the hot juice is some kind of EPO stuff that is injected into the bone marrow and is completely undetectable. May be some kind of genetic thing.
If you test clean, does that mean you are clean?
If a tree fell in the woods......

[1centaur]

The funny thing about the Versus rationale for cleanliness is that it damns Lance completely. Their problem is that it's the only "proof" they have, so their alternative is to say "who knows? maybe they all dope" in the pre-race show, and that will never work (a rare high-five to Trautwig for getting close to that point). They must be wincing inside at the possibility of looking bad when they believe in anybody.

I was away all week and taped the Tour, watching Monday through Saturday today (exhausting), and I was wincing at their lavish praise of Vino during his stage win and wondering how much of that will make it onto the WCP DVD.

[stevep]

when the tests are implemented.
a failure to register positive means that you are clean.
thats really the only way to view it.
very few of these guys who are users test positive...and those guys are usually inept.

ullrich, riis, millar, zabel, andreu, etc, etc never tested positive.. they showed clean and race unimpeded.

[DarrenCT]

all sports are in trouble imho....

cycling is just testing ALOT more.

look at those baseball and football players. they look like monsters. if they tested after every baseball and football game, how many players would be left??

also, what they don't mention about taking all these drugs is that they take years off your life and kill you. this is probably an important thing to mention.

cheers
-d

[keno]

The report likely says, in effect, "no evidence of illegal substances".

Interesting, but not the real story. If the report would say "evidence of no illegal substances" that would be something.

keno

[harlond]

I think they just interpret what they see through the filter of their own preconceptions. They all 'know' Evans is clean. They all 'know' that Rasmussen is a liar. So they see what they want to see!

For what it's worth I've been collating the circumstantial evidence against Contador. I'm really worried this year's result is going to be similar to last year's - i.e. most of the people who follow the sport closely will think the winner doped.

Here it is:

- He was a Puerto 'name'. BUT according to the ASO he shouldn't have been. He was mentioned in a recorded phone call, but it soon emerged the callers were discussing his race results, not his non-existent dealings with Fuentes

- He had a blood clot

- He is a client of Rominger, whose other clients include Vino, Kessler and Stinky****s

- He was managed by Saiz for 2 years at Liberty Seguros

- He is now managed by Bruyneel, who 'probably' doped at ONCE under Saiz and whose riders all seem to fail a test after they leave his team, suggesting that he's a wily old fox who knows more about doping than the other DeeEsses

- He attacked Rasmussen (another 'circumstantial' doper) in a superhuman mannerApart from the blood clot and the accelerations IOW, he's good)--which as you say are merely circumstantial indicators--what you have there is guilt by association. Probably enough these days for most people, sad to say.

[BigDaddySmooth]

Hmmm,
3 of the top 8 riders are from Discovery. LL, Contador, Popovych and GH all finished in the top 10 in the TT. A few years ago, in a crucial mountain stage and the final climb, there were like 9 riders left. 4 were Posties. Heras leaves Postal and pops positive, Landis leaves and pops positive, Hamilton leaves and pops positive, Basso is signed despite skeptical circumstances and I think we all know how that one turned out, LL leaves, does okay as a team leader but he is now older and in 3rd place. If you look at the 2006 results, in 1 year, LL improved 23 minutes on Sastre, 14 minutes on Evans and 12 minutes on Zubeldia? Contador comes from nowhere and will win it in his first try and at 24.

Is there a common denominator here?

Ah, yes, it must be the high tech training system :banana: :banana:

[stevep]

watch the nike ads man.
they train in the rain.
simple really.

[Grant McLean]

Hmmm,
... If you look at the 2006 results, in 1 year, LL improved 23 minutes on Sastre, 14 minutes on Evans and 12 minutes on Zubeldia?

By picking statisics you can show whatever you want, because
I think you are mischaracterizing Levi's tour performances.
Last year he was sick in the opening TT, and lost big time,
and then refocused his efforts, not on the GC.

Take the '05 Tour, Levi beat Floyd, and both Rassmussen and Cadel...

2005 results:

1 Lance Armstrong United States Discovery Channel 86h 15' 02"
(41.654 km/h)
2 Ivan Basso Italy Team CSC 4' 40"
3 Jan Ullrich Germany T-Mobile Team 6' 21"
4 Francisco Mancebo Spain Illes Balears 9' 59"
5 Alexander Vinokourov Kazakhstan T-Mobile 11' 01"
6 Levi Leipheimer United States Team Gerolsteiner 11' 21"
7 Michael Rasmussen Denmark Rabobank 11' 33"
8 Cadel Evans Australia Davitamon-Lotto 11' 55"
9 Floyd Landis United States Phonak 12' 44"
10 Óscar Pereiro Spain Phonak 16' 04"

[sjbraun]

I hear the hot juice is some kind of EPO stuff that is injected into the bone marrow and is completely undetectable. May be some kind of genetic thing.
If you test clean, does that mean you are clean?
If a tree fell in the woods......


Dude, I've had two bone marrow biopsies in the last year. Ain't no way anyone is going to suffer an injection into their bone marrow. That is not a benign procedure.

Steve-Tucson