Who else figured Rasmussen was doping after stage 16?

[dgauthier]

When I saw Rasmussen waving to the cars and motorcycles to get out of the way at the end of Stage 16, I said to myself, "He's not even tired. He's going to drop the Disco riders so far and so fast, he wants to make sure he has room. He's doping." Sure enough, Rasmussen *flew* up the mountain, pulling away like it was nothing. Leipheimer and Contador were dying, and Rasmussen was running at about 80%. There's no way Rasmussen is naturally that much stronger than Levi and Alberto.

Good riddance, Chicken, or Chickensh*t, or whatever they call him.

I'll say one thing: I'll bet Levi and Alberto are clean, simply because those guys were so exhausted, and flabbergasted at Rasmussen's superhuman stunt. I'll be rooting for Disco for the rest of the Tour.

[J.Greene]

I'll say one thing: I'll bet Levi and Alberto are clean, simply because those guys were so exhausted, and flabbergasted at Rasmussen's superhuman stunt. I'll be rooting for Disco for the rest of the Tour.

your effin kidding us right?

JG

[dgauthier]

Yes, in all seriousness, I am actually willing to believe.

What, are you telling me *none* of these guys are clean?

[Elefantino]

No.

No one is clean.

See, if you say that you have a better chance of being mostly right than if you say they're all clean.

I do, however, believe that Dmitry Fofonov is clean, mostly because I like to say "Dmitry Fofonov."

[J.Greene]

Yes, in all seriousness, I am actually willing to believe.

What, are you telling me *none* of these guys are clean?

sure some are....

but how can you assume that a 24 yo kid in his first tour is able to attack day after day and recover like that. His history goes back to puerto and Astana. so yeah, I assumed you were joking.

JG

[harlond]

Rasmussen beat Levi by 22 seconds after over six hours in the saddle. At what point did he reach superhuman status--11 seconds, 15, 18?

I mean, I'm not sitting here telling myself the Chicken, or any other cyclist is clean, but the fact that Rasmussen completed the course in 99.986% of the time Levi took to complete it hardly seems like a reasonable basis for distinguishing between the two of them.

I do, however, believe that Dmitry Fofonov is clean, mostly because I like to say "Dmitry Fofonov."This logic, on the other hand, I find quite sound.

[Mud]

To Repeat:

There used to be a cartoon called Super Chicken who got his powers from a batch of Super Sauce. :beer:

[paczki]

The doping was clear from the time trial. Much too big of a jump after last year, with bad form none the less. That's when I started to detest him.

[J.Greene]

The doping was clear from the time trial. Much too big of a jump after last year, with bad form none the less. That's when I started to detest him.

man your good. It looked to me that last year he soft pedaled since he was beaten by Robbie Mcewan.

Under your logic Lance was a doper since he barely finsihed one tour then goes and wins 7. Hey..you might be on to something.

JG

[bostondrunk]

The doping was clear from the time trial. Much too big of a jump after last year, with bad form none the less. That's when I started to detest him.

That's a pretty stupid assumption. The guy had one horrible time trial where he couldn't stay upright, and thus everyone assumes he can't ride a fast TT. The guy is a pro, and has huge lungs; at top form, he's gonna be at least a half decent TT'er by nature. The fact that he caught Valverde doesn't mean much, as Valverde himself said he had a terrible ride.

[LesMiner]

man your good. It looked to me that last year he soft pedaled since he was beaten by Robbie Mcewan.

Under your logic Lance was a doper since he barely finsihed one tour then goes and wins 7. Hey..you might be on to something.

JG

No, the French press said chemotherapy was Lance's unfair advantage.

[J.Greene]

No, the French press said chemotherapy was Lance's unfair advantage.

But that was before they said he failed seven retroactive tests for epo on his 99 samples.

JG

[paczki]

No need to be rude and call me stupid.
That's what I thought, the bad form was the reason why. When you make that much of a jump and you've paid no real attention to form, it looks like you went a different route to get fast.

[Needs Help]

Yes, in all seriousness, I am actually willing to believe.

What, are you telling me *none* of these guys are clean?
Clean riders are kicked to the curb long before they ever make it to the top ranks of professional cycling.

[bostondrunk]

No need to be rude and call me stupid.
That's what I thought, the bad form was the reason why. When you make that much of a jump and you've paid no real attention to form, it looks like you went a different route to get fast.

Sorry, you're not stupid.
I guess my point is that Ras didn't necessarily take that huge a jump in performance in his TT'ing ability. People, in my opinion, wrongly assumed he was a terrible TT'er because of one bad ride where he turfed it several times..

[J.Greene]

No need to be rude and call me stupid.
That's what I thought, the bad form was the reason why. When you make that much of a jump and you've paid no real attention to form, it looks like you went a different route to get fast.

But I don't think the guy had bad form. He had different goals. He won the polka dot jersey, he was in form. Only a handful of guys race the TT's. Rasmussen was one of the ones who did not.

JG

[paczki]

I mean the way he rode in Stage 13, not last year, and I mean his time trialing position. Anyway, all I can say is that's what I thought at the time, even if it was based on a questionable belief.

[Grant McLean]

Rasmussen beat Levi by 22 seconds after over six hours in the saddle. At what point did he reach superhuman status--11 seconds, 15, 18?

I mean, I'm not sitting here telling myself the Chicken, or any other cyclist is clean, but the fact that Rasmussen completed the course in 99.986% of the time Levi took to complete it hardly seems like a reasonable basis for distinguishing between the two of them.


Harlond get it 100%

g

[Grant McLean]

I mean the way he rode in Stage 13, not last year, and I mean his time trialing position. Anyway, all I can say is that's what I thought at the time, even if it was based on a questionable belief.

Cristian Moreni was doping in 56th place.
What does that say about the ability to "see" who's doping
based on performance??

g

[Elefantino]

If Rasmussen has been doping we'll find out soon enough. He's wearing the yellow jersey. He's been tested. Lots.

(Aside: Because he finished only 22 seconds ahead of Leipheimer does not, in itself, present a cogent argument that he wasn't doping. Who knows. If he hadn't doped — I'm just saying — he might have pulled a Vino bonk.)

What's comforting is that cycling has rules that people are actually following. Forget to tell your team where you are? Against the rules. Do it more than once and you may lose everything. In this case it may seem to be a ticky-tack thing to take away a yellow jersey for, but if you enforce some rules and not others, how will you clean up the sport?

Might make the Christian Morenis of the world think about it next time, too.

That's progress.

And if you have to sacrifice a liar to do it, well, that's life.

[jhcakilmer]

Ras has always been a strong climber, but he's always been one of the guys that has been on suspect list. Any rider that consistently peak for such a short period, and with such intensity every year are suspect in my book. I think they're are lots of riders that compete strong most of the year!

[manet]

Cristian Moreni was doping in 56th place.
What does that say about the ability to "see" who's doping
based on performance??

g

pure (not bio) accident. thought it was
foi gras. excellent chamois creme.

[Fivethumbs]

When Rasmussen blew past Valverde during the TT, Valverde was overheard saying, "Boy do I feel like a dummy...I actually thought that this was the year we were all going to stop doping!"

[Avispa]

Clean riders are kicked to the curb long before they ever make it to the top ranks of [Mostly European/Continental] professional cycling.

WORD!

A. ;)

[Simon Q]

Rasmussen beat Levi by 22 seconds after over six hours in the saddle. At what point did he reach superhuman status--11 seconds, 15, 18?

I mean, I'm not sitting here telling myself the Chicken, or any other cyclist is clean, but the fact that Rasmussen completed the course in 99.986% of the time Levi took to complete it hardly seems like a reasonable basis for distinguishing between the two of them.

This logic, on the other hand, I find quite sound.

That 99.986% logic only applies if he inched away to 22 seconds over the whole course. When someone puts that 22 seconds in over 1 K making others looks like they are standing still, that looks superhuman.

[Ray]

Sorry, you're not stupid.
I guess my point is that Ras didn't necessarily take that huge a jump in performance in his TT'ing ability. People, in my opinion, wrongly assumed he was a terrible TT'er because of one bad ride where he turfed it several times..
Its not even just that time trial two years ago. He lost loads of time in the time trials last year, but that doesn't mean he's gotten better at them. He wasn't in contention for anything but the KOM last year, so he had no reason to do anything in the time trials except get in under the limit. He was preserving his energy for the climbs, which were all that really mattered to him. This year he had to put his all into the time trials because he was seriously contending for the yellow jersey. That makes a HUGE, ENORMOUS, MASSIVE difference.

I'm NOT defending Ras - I assume he's as drugged as most of the rest of them. But the logic of concluding he's doping because he's lots better in the TT this year is just absurd.

-Ray

[paczki]

"He wasn't in contention for anything but the KOM last year, so he had no reason to do anything in the time trials except get in under the limit."

Actually that's not entirely true. He was trying for a podium position one of the years he time-trialed really badly. Remember Disco getting a bit worried? And as I said before I didn't make the judgment just because he did better, it was based on how he time-trialed.
And also doping doesn't mean you're doing it in the stage. It often means you're doing a lot of testosterone, etc., in the offseason. That's one of the things you pay an Italian doctor for.

But anywat I feel for Valverde, etc.

[J.Greene]

It was two years ago he cold not stay on the bike. I think he did lose a podium spot.

My opinion, and I think this to be very important, is that how one TT's in the last week has more to do with how you've recovered in a 3 week race than it does your ability to specialize in a tt. That may include doping, but to me being recovered is the key.

JG

"He wasn't in contention for anything but the KOM last year, so he had no reason to do anything in the time trials except get in under the limit."

Actually that's not entirely true. He was trying for a podium position one of the years he time-trialed really badly. Remember Disco getting a bit worried? And as I said before I didn't make the judgment just because he did better, it was based on how he time-trialed.
And also doping doesn't mean you're doing it in the stage. It often means you're doing a lot of testosterone, etc., in the offseason. That's one of the things you pay an Italian doctor for.

But anywat I feel for Valverde, etc.

[Grant McLean]

That 99.986% logic only applies if he inched away to 22 seconds over the whole course. When someone puts that 22 seconds in over 1 K making others looks like they are standing still, that looks superhuman.

This whole "comparing performances" thing is misguided.

If Basso was in the stage, Rassmussen would be 8 minutes down,
and nobody would even notice that Rassmussen finished 22 seconds
ahead of Levi.

How would you feel about Rassmussen's performance then?
It would have been the exact same ride, but instead for 4th place,
if Basso, Ullrich, and Lance finished ahead of him.

For some reason, the stage winner is given "superhuman" status,
and the rest of the riders are mortals, when in fact, just about
all the riders performances are superhuman.

When the fastest car in F1 is in the lead, it makes everyone else
look slow. When a Ferrari in the lead blows up, the cars behind
don't "speed up" to assume the lead, they are handed the lead,
and continue at the slower pace, but all of a sudden, they're
not slow anymore, they're the fastest on the track!



g

[J.Greene]

Good point G,

but in this case the boys were climbing as fast or faster than Pantani and supernut did on some of those climbs. But your point is well taken. None of the stuff we see, or think we see, is confirmation of anything. It's pretty darn stupid for us to think we know anything based on what we see or hear through the eyes and mouth of Phil and Paul :banana:

JG


For some reason, the stage winner is given "superhuman" status,
and the rest of the riders are mortals, when in fact, just about
all the riders performances are superhuman.

When the fastest car in F1 is in the lead, it makes everyone else
look slow. When a Ferrari in the lead blows up, the cars behind
don't "speed up" to assume the lead, they are handed the lead,
and continue at the slower pace, but all of a sudden, they're
not slow anymore, they're the fastest on the track!



g

[jspa]

[QUOTE=Elefantino]No.

No one is clean.

See, if you say that you have a better chance of being mostly right than if you say they're all clean.

I do, however, believe that Dmitry Fofonov is clean, mostly because I like to say "Dmitry Fofonov."[/QUOTE

If that's how it works, I hope Patxi Vila is clean.

[gary135r]

Ras has always been a strong climber, but he's always been one of the guys that has been on suspect list. Any rider that consistently peak for such a short period, and with such intensity every year are suspect in my book. I think they're are lots of riders that compete strong most of the year!
Boonen.

[Simon Q]

This whole "comparing performances" thing is misguided.

If Basso was in the stage, Rassmussen would be 8 minutes down,
and nobody would even notice that Rassmussen finished 22 seconds
ahead of Levi.

How would you feel about Rassmussen's performance then?
It would have been the exact same ride, but instead for 4th place,
if Basso, Ullrich, and Lance finished ahead of him.

For some reason, the stage winner is given "superhuman" status,
and the rest of the riders are mortals, when in fact, just about
all the riders performances are superhuman.

When the fastest car in F1 is in the lead, it makes everyone else
look slow. When a Ferrari in the lead blows up, the cars behind
don't "speed up" to assume the lead, they are handed the lead,
and continue at the slower pace, but all of a sudden, they're
not slow anymore, they're the fastest on the track!



g

Basso is currently suspended for being, in Simoni's words, extraterrestrial. I know he running the "I didn't inhale" defence but... And Ullrich isn't squeaky either. Lance we have to assume is cool as he hasn't been found to have done anything but safe to at least say that he is a once in a generation cyclist. So these guys who may have been ahead - although the climbing speeds this year have been very high so they may not have - could be regarded as superhuman so not great examples to compare against.

I occasionally get rub downs from a French guy who used to soigneur in the 80's and early 90's. His very firm view is that if it looks too good to be true, it usually is. I wouldn't go that far but in the year that Ras lied about his wareabouts he is quite a bit better than he has been before, climbing pretty much as fast as anyone ever has and put in a TT light years better than he ever has.

Is that proof? Of course not. But if you join the dots it has to riase questions.

[vaxn8r]

....Is that proof? Of course not. But if you join the dots it has to riase questions.
You can't connect any dots with Lance. Please!

[onekgguy]

Was Rasumussen upset that the motorcycles were in front of them acting as a carrot to Levi and Contador thus giving them an unfair advantage as they climbed the Aubisque? Get out of the way you damned motorcycles! ...I'm the only one who gets an unfair advantage...get out of the way!! What a dope(r). (http://youtube.com/watch?v=ntwELfJnq9Y)

Kevin g

[harlond]

That 99.986% logic only applies if he inched away to 22 seconds over the whole course. When someone puts that 22 seconds in over 1 K making others looks like they are standing still, that looks superhuman.More like 1.5K. How many seconds should mere humans be able to put into anothe rider over that distance?