View Full Version : Serotta Forum's Worst Climber Gives Ideas to Improve Climbing
Sandy
07-23-2007, 02:59 PM
OK. You have heard it lots of times. Mostly from me- Sandy is the worst climber of the zillion Serotta Forumites and viewers. Well, Sandy has decided to try to improve his climbing- Here is what he thinks is critical to improvement in climbing (based upon concentrating on my poor climbing and trying to figure out why).
1. Body weight- Recently I was with a Serotta Forumite member and asked him what makes a lousy climber- Answer- "Fat and not fit". The physics is quite clear- The lighter you are, the easier it is to climb. Less weight to haul up the hill. I weighed 240 this year. 225- 4 weeks ago, and 209 today. Does it make a diference in climbing? Absolutely, but not enough thus far. Very noticeable difference in moderate inclines, but not too noticeable thus far when the hills get really steep or somewhat steep and long. Solution- Get to minimum healthy weight. For me, I think that will be around 185 (maybe a little less).
2. Pedal Stroke- I think that is the key- Probably at least as important as weight, if that is possible. I realize that it is easy to push down on the pedals. As the incline increases, pushing down on the pedals seems to become more and more apparent, and a smooth TOTAL pedal stroke seems to simply disappear. I think that the key to climbing (and all cycling) is a smooth and fluid total pedal stroke, not emphasizing any portion of it- The pedal fluidity must exist with each leg and with the two legs as a unit. In the pedal stroke in climbing one must actively think about (until you get good at it) pulling back, around and over the top in a smooth flluid manner- Don't worry about the pushing down portion of the stroke as that will happen, but actively think about coming over the top of the stroke. If not, you will wind up just pushing down and will lose any semblance of a smooth and fluid stroke. At least that is how I now perceive it.
3. Gear Selection- Actively select gears in which you are comfortable in pedaling with the pedal stroke as outlined above. You have to choose for the particular terrain, a gear that you can reasonably spin and that will get you up the hill efficiently- Not too low of a gear that you spin too much and progress too slowly and not to big of gear that will tire your legs, negate a smooth stroke, and be too difficult.
4. Confidence in your ability to climb- That is absolutely critical, and as of now, I don't have it. I was being dropped on the hills by just about everyone on every ride I went on. Now that is not always the case. I am improving for sure and am not dropped as regularly. But when I ride with good hill climbers and I can't keep up, my increased confidence quickly deteriorates. If you don't think that you can climb, then you can't. Confidence is critical.
5. Practice- Do a lot of hill climbing. Go on hilly rides by yourself, with friends, and club rides. You will get better if you actively work on your pedal stroke, lose weight, and increase your confidence by experiencing success in hill climbing.
6. Hire a coach- Have someone who really knows what he or she is talking about to help make you a better climber. That could be done by illustration and explanation about pedal stroke, and specific workouts which will emphasis better techniques and which are directly aimed at hill climbing improvement. I haven't done that yet, but I plan on it.
Anyway, that is how I am approaching improvement in hill climbing. Hopefully it will work. Hopefully I am not clueless in my personal analysis.
Thanks for reading this if you somehow got this far!!
Soaring Sandy
William
07-23-2007, 03:13 PM
Here is another one to add to the list. Breathe.
A little trick I learned when I was a competitive rower...Focus on breathing out forcefully. Your body will automatically breathe back in. Try it right now.
A lot of people focus on breathing in and end up hyperventilating and performance suffers. I've been told I sound like a freight train when I climb. But this allows me to get and stay as oxygenated as possible.
William
Fixed
07-23-2007, 03:15 PM
bro move to fla. imho
cheers
Sandy
07-23-2007, 03:22 PM
Here is another one to add to the list. Breathe.
A little trick I learned when I was a competitive rower...Focus on breathing out forcefully. Your body will automatically breathe back in. Try it right now.
A lot of people focus on breathing in and end up hyperventilating and performance suffers. I've been told I sound like a freight train when I climb. But this allows me to get and stay as oxygenated as possible.
William
William- I think I do breathe that way. I hope to be breathing that way for years. I hope to be breathing any way for years. :rolleyes:
Turning Blue,
Sandy
Ginger
07-23-2007, 03:25 PM
bro move to fla. imho
cheers
Ha! I love you Fixed.
Sandy,
A while ago I think it was Fsterthnus posted up his tip for climbing and it was echoed by many; Something along the lines of:
When climbing, relax everything but your legs.
And I've found that can be really hard to do, but it really seems to help.
Another thing to look up: OLPD One legged pedalling drills. I know we all dislike the trainer, especially in summer. But when done correctly OLP really helps obtain that smooth pedal stroke...
72gmc
07-23-2007, 03:32 PM
Good stuff, Sandy. Comfortable cadence, yep. Breathing out forcefully, yep. Other thoughts that work for me are:
1. Relax. Don't grab and pull on the bars, set your hands on the bars. Loose hands help the rest stay loose.
2. Stay consistent. I love to climb (not that I'm good at it, I just love to climb) and I find a consistent speed is less tiring than starting fast and slowing down.
3. Little bits at a time. If it's a long steep climb, I focus on one part after another rather than the whole thing. The crest seems to show up fast.
Wish I was climbing a hill right now.
Ginger
07-23-2007, 03:32 PM
Sandy
CONGRATULATIONS!
I don't remember you getting down to 209 before! Woo hoo!
Ginger
Sandy
07-23-2007, 03:32 PM
Ha! I love you Fixed.
Sandy,
A while ago I think it was Fsterthnus posted up his tip for climbing and it was echoed by many; Something along the lines of:
When climbing, relax everything but your legs.
Another thing to look up: OLPD One legged pedalling drills. I know we all dislike the trainer, especially in summer. But when done correctly OLP really helps obtain that smooth pedal stroke...
Absolutely. Great additions. Relaxing makes it much easier and much more efficeint. Too Tall had mentioned the one legged pedal stroke. He also mentioned Pilates and building up core strength. I called a Pilates teacher but she hasn't returned the call yet. I was thinking about getting a rower- Concept 2. I tried one a few years back and really like it. Great full body workout- Even your core. I may get that and forgetr the Pilates- not sure.
Stretching Sandy
72gmc
07-23-2007, 03:37 PM
Sandy, I took a set of 8 yoga classes. I was in good shape to begin with, and felt better about my core after just a few classes. Helped all of my riding. But my hairball schedule makes regular classes nigh impossible. Pilates could definitely help you; as for me, a rower is in my future.
Kevan
07-23-2007, 03:39 PM
you should see him steam up my windows peeping in. Honestly, I think he has that down.
You got it kid, step 5. Much like playing at Carnegie Hall, it comed down to practice...practice...practice. Gotta luv dem hills.
Ginger just beat me with relaxing the upper half of the body. Sch...pot on!
Also, I try avoiding looking at the crest, myself. I lower my head, grip the bar tops comfortably and spin avoiding for the most part looking beyond 20 ft. Riding hills isn't my strength either, but if i get myself into a zone where I work as hard as the wheel ahead of me, or better, I'm pleased.
Lastly, us big guys for the most part are best left to stay seated and churn.
Anyway, I thought you were already over the hill?!
Sandy
07-23-2007, 03:45 PM
you should see him steam up my windows peeping in. Honestly, I think he has that down.
You got it kid, step 5. Much like playing at Carnegie Hall, it comed down to practice...practice...practice. Gotta luv dem hills.
Ginger just beat me with relaxing the upper half of the body. Sch...pot on!
Also, I try avoiding looking at the crest, myself. I lower my head, grip the bar tops comfortably and spin avoiding for the most part looking beyond 20 ft. Riding hills isn't my strength either, but if i get myself into a zone where I work as hard as the wheel ahead of me, or better, I'm pleased.
Lastly, us big guys for the most part are best left to stay seated and churn.
Anyway, I thought you were already over the hill?!
Yeah! I am over the hill. Just as long as I stay above the ground!! :rolleyes: :)
Still Breathing Sandy
Recently I was with a Serotta Forumite member and asked him what makes a lousy climber- Answer- "Fat and not fit".Yes, it's mostly about power-to-weight; and whatever improves that ratio.
Too Tall
07-23-2007, 05:05 PM
Good stuff Bambi, you really are on track to your goals.
MOST impressive are your attention to detail and determination goal setting.
Mi Casa Su Casa chief :)
Serotta PETE
07-23-2007, 05:10 PM
ride the hills and manage to HR monitor.....Practice improves performance.
Come ride with me in ASHEVILLE - I am s-l-o-w
PETE
Bruce K
07-23-2007, 05:52 PM
Sandy;
Do NOT skip the Pilates. Last winter, I took a Basic Reformer course, coupled with 4 spin classes each week and felt a bunch better. People told me I looked like I had lost weight (I hadn't lost much, but it was nice to have them think so), and that I appeared to have better posture.
All I know is that I was less achy, and felt more energetic.
When I went for my annual physical, I measured 1/2" taller, regaining height lost over the last few years !!!
When I got on my bike outdoors, I discovered I was a little faster and was climbing noticably better.
I will be back on the reformer once the weather goes in the dumper again this year.
BK
palincss
07-23-2007, 05:58 PM
Another thing to look up: OLPD One legged pedalling drills. I know we all dislike the trainer, especially in summer. But when done correctly OLP really helps obtain that smooth pedal stroke...
Sounds like a great reason to get a fixed gear.
SoCalSteve
07-23-2007, 06:36 PM
Sounds like a great reason to get a fixed gear.
I was thinking the EXACT same thing...
Since I've been riding fixed, I have noticed a huge improvement when I ride my geared bikes...
Smoother pedal strokes, more fluid
Stronger pedaling
Higher cadence for longer periods of time
and best of all, its one heck of a workout...Do an hour of fixed gear riding is like an hour and a half to 2 hours on a geared bike! No joke here...
Sandy, go fixed, you'll really see improvements very quickly. Not single speed, fixed, there is a HUGE difference.
Good luck and keep it up!
Steve
PS: Weight loss should come at a gradual pace for it to be very healthy and for you to maintain the weight loss over time.
Fixed
07-23-2007, 06:58 PM
Sandy, go fixed, you'll really see improvements very quickly. Not single speed, fixed, there is a HUGE difference.
bro there might be hope for me yet , but i dought it
ginger i love you too . you post are great imho
cheers
Karin Kirk
07-23-2007, 07:11 PM
Excellent tips so far.
72 gmc - so true about not looking at the top, nor thinking about it, nor even thinking about the next hill after the one you're currently on. I have found that to be a good metaphor for life in general at times!
I'll add a couple more tips to the mix:
Ride the bottom conservatively, and then you can be more aggressive as you near the top. There's mucho time to be gained by cresting a hill strongly, and also there's much to be lost from attacking the bottom then fizzling out. So start mellow, then kick it in at the top.
Once the grade backs off near the top, keep shifting up into harder gears; don't slave away in too easy a gear once the grade has mellowed.
On the practice theme, if you usually climb seated, practice climbing standing. And vice versa. A wise climber can do both when needed, so expand your horizons and become fluent with both techniques.
Have fun with it! By climbing on nice roads, with good pals and fun descents, you can have some great experiences while climbing. This helps the confidence and fun factor and will help erase that feeling of dread we sometimes get when a hill is looming.
You go Sandy!
Ti Designs
07-23-2007, 07:51 PM
Work on the components of being a good climber individually, identify weaknesses and work on them, next spring put the whole picture together.
Pedal stroke - I can't stress this one enough, if you're not firing the muscles in the right order at the right time, you're wasting lots of energy and going slow. It's not just the one legged pedal stroke, it's doing it correctly and really getting the feel for where the power is.
Leg speed - this is one so few people get. Take a new rider, put 'em on a trainer with almost no resistance and have them pedal at 100 RPMs and watch their heart rate rise. It's not the wattage they're putting out, it's just asking them to fire muscles that fast. Every study I've seen on non cyclists claims the most efficient RPM range is around 75 RPMs, because they have no leg speed to speak of. If you're going to gain power at higher cadences, you can't be working hard just to pedal air at that speed.
Strength - fatigue is you doing damage to your muscles. Exceed their pull strength and muscles form tears. Get to the gym, build up fiber strength and you don't feel the same fatigue.
The stuff about power to weight goes without saying...
Technique - learn how to climb. Better yet, learn how to climb as many ways as you can. Climbing in the saddle turning a gear, climbing in a bigger gear on power, climbing out of the saddle in sustain mode, getting out of the saddle to gain momentum...
As for the fixed gear thing, I don't know that I would tell someone hundreds of miles away to just get a fixed gear. I've seen way too many people on fixed gears who don't have a clue what they're doing. The internet is the worst place to get advice on this, everybody is an expert ('cept me!)
Dekonick
07-23-2007, 08:13 PM
One more thing - find a MEAN dog - I mean a MEAN dog and start up the hill... as you pass the dog's house, you will find yourself able to FLY! Watch out for Truckie in the Ellicott City area...he is known to frequent the hills looking for prey...
Sandy,
You know that some of the best local hills in the MD/DC/Balt area are in Ellicott City...
Hmmm...
Illchester perhaps? :banana:
chakatrain
07-23-2007, 08:31 PM
Very nice tips here.
I have found lately that by going a bit more slowly up a hill (i.e. not going crazy but staying within limits) that I begin to like the climb quite a bit. When my lungs begin to get near overload and my mind is screaming "ouch!" I have found that if I slow down, I can recover and after a few moments start enjoying the climb all over again. That may sound silly, but has really helped the mental part of climbing for me.
Pedal stroke: dumb question: is it really that important to have a fluid, balance stroke where you "pull up" on the return stroke as much as "push down" on the downstroke (vague terms, I know...)? I mostly just push when climbing, adding in a more complete stroke to get over a little rise or to get some acceleration. I find that I get very tired quickly, though, if I'm engaging my full leg all the way around the stroke. How do you learn to do that w/o getting extremely tired right away?
Len J
07-23-2007, 09:09 PM
but one no one has mentioned yet is about pain management.
You have to get used to hurting. There is a place beyond pain but before real damage where you can really perform. You have to practice being there....and you have to learn how to manage this pain and use it as a positive motivation as opposed to a negative.
I do this by riding hard into a headwind......and when I think I can't go any further....I go further. I've found many keys to doing this. One is to get outside yourself. Concentrate on something other than the pain.....maybe it's the jersey in fromt of me, maybe it's a tree at the top of the hill...whatever works to get my mind outside of myself and off the hurt.
There are a couple of people that I ride with that should be able to ride harder longer...but I see them backing off as soon as they start hurting......they have never learned how far beyond the pain they can go, and for how long.
Len
Sounds like a great reason to get a fixed gear.
I was thinking the EXACT same thing... ...snipped....
Sandy, go fixed, you'll really see improvements very quickly. Not single speed, fixed, there is a HUGE difference. ....snipped....Are these recommendations for a fixed in general, or as they apply to one legged pedaling drills as suggested by Ginger? :confused:
Louis
07-23-2007, 09:30 PM
Body weight- Recently I was with a Serotta Forumite member and asked him what makes a lousy climber- Answer- "Fat and not fit". The physics is quite clear- The lighter you are, the easier it is to climb. Less weight to haul up the hill. I weighed 240 this year. 225- 4 weeks ago, and 209 today. Does it make a diference in climbing? Absolutely, but not enough thus far. Very noticeable difference in moderate inclines, but not too noticeable thus far when the hills get really steep or somewhat steep and long. Solution- Get to minimum healthy weight. For me, I think that will be around 185 (maybe a little less).
Way to go Sandy.
This brings up something I've been pondering for a while:
What's a good reasonable goal for % body fat for a cyclist who does lots of climbing? Other than a number like 8%, which IMO is super-super low, and I won't even try to shoot for that, because I know I would not get there without starving myself, something I'm not willing to do.
Louis
Ginger
07-23-2007, 09:31 PM
One Legged Pedalling drills on your current bike gets to the same issue as the fixed gear does without the monetary outlay and time required to go find a fixed. It's that immediate return thing instead of putting it off "until"
And What's this about next spring? People say that sort of thing all summer long. Nope, Just like Sandy I'm working now so my very next ride will be better!
And I agree with Len. Know how to be in pain and to work through it, but you've got to be at the point where you just cause yourself work pain, not injury pain. Some people go past the first and into the second.
Fixed I think this may be the very first thread I've seen you suggest someone throw money at a problem, (Move to Florida) ever. :)
But...that does solve the hill issue.
Kevan
07-23-2007, 09:38 PM
One more thing - find a MEAN dog - I mean a MEAN dog and start up the hill... as you pass the dog's house, you will find yourself able to FLY!
Really...anything I can do...
SoCalSteve
07-23-2007, 09:52 PM
Are these recommendations for a fixed in general, or as they apply to one legged pedaling drills as suggested by Ginger? :confused:
On a fixed gear bike you are CONSTANTLY doing one legged pedaling drills (but with 2 feet)...There is NO WAY to pedal poorly, well there is, but you wont last long.
Seriously, any road bike can be turned into a fixed gear bike for not that much outlay of $$$.
Just get a front and rear brake and practice close to home for a while before you venture out...No big hills or descents and you'll be good to go!
Best training there is outside of sitting in a boring gym doing weight training on your legs.
Just sayin'
Steve
Ginger
07-23-2007, 10:05 PM
Oh, I'm not arguing that the fixed gear isn't the fastest way to work on that if you have one...
Its just he could do OLP tonight on his current bike.
Dekonick
07-23-2007, 10:23 PM
Fixed riding is a blast.
Ti Designs
07-23-2007, 10:45 PM
On a fixed gear bike you are CONSTANTLY doing one legged pedaling drills (but with 2 feet)...There is NO WAY to pedal poorly, well there is, but you wont last long.
I'm always going against the popular opinion - I strongly disagree with the idea that a fixed gear will smooth out your pedal stroke. A fixed gear is good repetitive practice for someone with a good pedal stroke, but if you get on one without one you'll suck (not unlike most of the people on fixed gears)
As for putting it all together for next spring, in coaching I'm a stickler for doing everything in the right order. I've taken my riders off the road in the summer to work on specific problems, I don't see Sandy doing that. There's little to gain for him, it's pointless without the enjoyment. Winter training means time to do it all in the right order.
3chordwonder
07-23-2007, 10:51 PM
This stuff about 'riding beyond your 'pain' kills me! Can somebody tell me what 'pain' we're talking about here? I've never experienced it, and would like to find out what it is.
During a long ride, going up serious hills (10km plus at 6-12% is a 'serious' hill for me, if definition is required), I might start getting some pain along the sides in my lower back, but I'm sure that's not what's meant here. Occasionally, if I'm really starting to run on empty, I might also end up with cramping/involuntary muscle twitching in my leg muscles, but I'm sure that's not it either. Neither stops me from riding.
Where I do find a limit is plain and simple running out of air. Basically there comes a point where I just can't get one more cubic centimetre of air per minute in and out of my lungs, and that's the limiting factor in my climbing speed every time. If that's what's called the 'pain threshold', then forget going beyond it - there's no pop psychology going on at that moment, there's just oyxgen and red blood cells, and the mind can go as nuts as it wants but physics rules the situation every time. When I ride for a long time up against that red zone continuously, it takes me a day or two to get over, so I'm sure I'm pushing my body to its limits allright and there's never much left in the tank at the end of a ride like that.
I guess I'm a skeptic about this 'mind over matter' stuff, I don't believe anybody can extract more oxygen from air just be willing themselves to do so. But I'd be interested to find out what people are calling 'pain' - are they are talking about 'discomfort' instead?
regularguy412
07-23-2007, 11:00 PM
I'm always going against the popular opinion - I strongly disagree with the idea that a fixed gear will smooth out your pedal stroke. A fixed gear is good repetitive practice for someone with a good pedal stroke, but if you get on one without one you'll suck (not unlike most of the people on fixed gears)
As for putting it all together for next spring, in coaching I'm a stickler for doing everything in the right order. I've taken my riders off the road in the summer to work on specific problems, I don't see Sandy doing that. There's little to gain for him, it's pointless without the enjoyment. Winter training means time to do it all in the right order.
FWIW, when I first started riding my fixed gear, I did it in the off-season-- October thru February. AND, I started it out on the rollers. I didn't go outside until I had a good feel for how the stroke went and how the bike felt. Riding a true fixie (no freewheeling cog) outdoors is definitely an acquired skill. Stopping and starting at intersections, clipping in and out, going up and (especially) DOWN hills, and learing how to pedal through corners without smacking a pedal need to first be mastered in a traffic-safe area. Otherwise, it's downright dangerous.
I agree with TI, a fixie doesn't 'make' one's stroke round. For me, I felt like it helped improve my power output-- as I was riding a 42 chainring and a 17 cog.
That said, I feel like riding the fixie off and on through three off-seasons really improved my ability to put out power almost all the way around the pedal circle. I haven't ridden a fixed gear in over ten years, but I'm sure I could hop right on and not have to re-learn the technique again.
Mike in AR
Karin Kirk
07-23-2007, 11:15 PM
Pedal stroke: dumb question: is it really that important to have a fluid, balance stroke where you "pull up" on the return stroke as much as "push down" on the downstroke (vague terms, I know...)? I mostly just push when climbing, adding in a more complete stroke to get over a little rise or to get some acceleration. I find that I get very tired quickly, though, if I'm engaging my full leg all the way around the stroke. How do you learn to do that w/o getting extremely tired right away?
No, you don't actually pull up on the upstroke - you are correct that it would make you excessively tired.
The key is eliminating the big dead spot that you get in your pedal stroke if you just stomp each foot through the floor. If you do that, there is a sizable lull at the bottom (or top) of each stroke.
By adding a little finesse at the top and bottom of each stroke you can get rid of that dead spot. But you don't need to actually think about pulling up with your foot. My favorite tip is to think about the top of the stroke, and make sure there is some ankle flexion happening there (as in, closing the ankle joint a bit through the top of the stroke). By flicking my foot through the top of the stroke, it helps me minimize the dead spot in the other foot, which, of course is at the bottom of the stroke at that time.
Alternatively, you can focus on the bottom of the stroke and think about pulling your foot back through the bottom of the stroke, as if scraping gum off your Sidis. Again, some action in the ankle is necessary to keep everything smooth and fluid.
I'm sure others have more or different things to contribute here, this is just my take.
Ti Designs
07-23-2007, 11:22 PM
I agree with TI...
Clearly my views are getting a little too mainsteam. Fine, here's my opinion of gearing:
All this crap about compact gearing is just plain stupid. You have a brain which should be in control and you have legs which should have a wide range of torque output. The brain sends the signals, the legs do what their told - at least that's how it once worked. The best analogy I've ever heard on this is about dog training. If a dog starts barking at 2:00AM and you get up and feed him, what did you just teach the dog? He barks, you feed - who's in control? Same thing with gearing, it gets harder to pedal, your legs tell your brain to downshift. pretty soon you lose the ability to climb on power and your dog is running your life.
If anyone agrees with this I'll have to say something about carbon wheels - just warning you!
Karin Kirk
07-23-2007, 11:25 PM
Clearly my views are getting a little too mainsteam.
Stay out of the mainstream.
Get a cat instead of that lousy barking dog.
:)
SadieKate
07-23-2007, 11:30 PM
Ti is going to be shocked I'm another one agreeing with him about not needing a fixed gear. Try mountainbiking up a long steep hill with a loose surface or across a long stretch of sand. You either learn a smooth pedal stroke or fall over. You learn very quickly how to balance lung power to manage the distance and torque to maintain traction.
Not to mention I won't ride fixed because I never want to lose the ability to ratchet and clear a pedal without thought, but that's another topic.
3chordwonder
07-23-2007, 11:33 PM
I don't know about that advice, I have three cats and they run my life to the point where we've just bought a house with a garden 50km out of the city centre instead of the cool inner city warehouse place I'd love to live in. Just because the cats love hanging out in their garden so much... definitely they won that round.
swoop
07-23-2007, 11:48 PM
at the level most of us are at.. i doubt its that we're limited by the ratio of watts per kilo. most everyday folks don't climb well because they either don't work on it as a skill, can't deal with suffering, or are inefficient on the bike.
all this stuff kicks in long before you pull off because you can't put out killer watts per kilo.
a lot of climbing is in your head.
atmo.
Dekonick
07-23-2007, 11:51 PM
One thing about big gears - you have to have connective tissue that is strong enough to handle it. If not you end up with 'spring knee'.....
Some people have better connective tissue than others, and no matter what it takes a long time to strengthen it as it is not very vascular and therefore doesn't re-build as well as - say - muscle.
It is easy to build your muscle strength faster than your connective tissue can and thus end up injured. Slow and steady - thats the best way.
:D
SadieKate
07-23-2007, 11:51 PM
Did I mention that as I climb I sing along with the voices in my head?
Jack Brunk
07-24-2007, 12:00 AM
Did I mention that as I climb I sing along with the voices in my head?
I did a Hors Catogorie climb today after work. I had a live 14 minute version of Jimmy Hendrix doing Red House. That is a great tune to suffer by. 8 miles long with some steep stuff(avg 6.8% with 9-12% sections) and I don't even remember the climb. I also had some old BBC studio songs of robert Plant and Jimmy Page doing their thing.
Wayne77
07-24-2007, 12:15 AM
Clearly my views are getting a little too mainsteam. Fine, here's my opinion of gearing:
All this crap about compact gearing is just plain stupid. You have a brain which should be in control and you have legs which should have a wide range of torque output. The brain sends the signals, the legs do what their told - at least that's how it once worked. The best analogy I've ever heard on this is about dog training. If a dog starts barking at 2:00AM and you get up and feed him, what did you just teach the dog? He barks, you feed - who's in control? Same thing with gearing, it gets harder to pedal, your legs tell your brain to downshift. pretty soon you lose the ability to climb on power and your dog is running your life.
If anyone agrees with this I'll have to say something about carbon wheels - just warning you!
Sorry, but I may just have to agree with you. I recently tried out a 13-29 after using either 12-23 or 12-25 clusters for years. I really thought the 27 and 29 cog would improve my times on one of the very steep local climbs by allowing for a quicker spin. I have done the climb several times after the switch and my finish times have been slower, I feel less efficient, and it hurts about the same.
now, about your thoughts on carbon wheels.. ;)
SoCalSteve
07-24-2007, 12:28 AM
I'm always going against the popular opinion - I strongly disagree with the idea that a fixed gear will smooth out your pedal stroke. A fixed gear is good repetitive practice for someone with a good pedal stroke, but if you get on one without one you'll suck (not unlike most of the people on fixed gears)
As for putting it all together for next spring, in coaching I'm a stickler for doing everything in the right order. I've taken my riders off the road in the summer to work on specific problems, I don't see Sandy doing that. There's little to gain for him, it's pointless without the enjoyment. Winter training means time to do it all in the right order.
Ti, you spend much time riding fixed?
Riding fixed WILL smooth out your pedal stroke much faster than riding a freewheel bike (the caveat is that you have to really be conscious of wanting to work on your pedal stroke and working on it while riding fixed)...It does work and for both legs.
Just sayin'
Steve
SoCalSteve
07-24-2007, 12:34 AM
FWIW, when I first started riding my fixed gear, I did it in the off-season-- October thru February. AND, I started it out on the rollers. I didn't go outside until I had a good feel for how the stroke went and how the bike felt. Riding a true fixie (no freewheeling cog) outdoors is definitely an acquired skill. Stopping and starting at intersections, clipping in and out, going up and (especially) DOWN hills, and learing how to pedal through corners without smacking a pedal need to first be mastered in a traffic-safe area. Otherwise, it's downright dangerous.
I agree with TI, a fixie doesn't 'make' one's stroke round. For me, I felt like it helped improve my power output-- as I was riding a 42 chainring and a 17 cog.
That said, I feel like riding the fixie off and on through three off-seasons really improved my ability to put out power almost all the way around the pedal circle. I haven't ridden a fixed gear in over ten years, but I'm sure I could hop right on and not have to re-learn the technique again.
Mike in AR
Isnt that the same???
I mean, when you have a smooth pedal stroke, you are putting power almost all the way around the pedal circle. As you said, this comes from riding a fixed gear bike...
And, I will agree with you, it is an aquired taste...You really need to be "one" with your bike when you are riding in traffic. But, once mastered, its quite an amazing feeling of a sense of accomplishment and really makes you "in tune" with yourself and your bike.
Its the only way I know of riding a bike where going down hill is harder than going up hill...
Just sayin'
Steve
vaxn8r
07-24-2007, 01:28 AM
Here's mine:
Pull out Hoover. Turn it on. Enjoy the pain.
regularguy412
07-24-2007, 03:24 AM
Isnt that the same???
I mean, when you have a smooth pedal stroke, you are putting power almost all the way around the pedal circle. As you said, this comes from riding a fixed gear bike...
And, I will agree with you, it is an aquired taste...You really need to be "one" with your bike when you are riding in traffic. But, once mastered, its quite an amazing feeling of a sense of accomplishment and really makes you "in tune" with yourself and your bike.
Its the only way I know of riding a bike where going down hill is harder than going up hill...
Just sayin'
Steve
"Sorta" the same,, but I guess I'm splitting hairs, here. I think it's possible to make your feet go 'round in circles ( to borrow a phrase from Billy Preston ), but you aren't necessarily making those circles with power. I seldom use the term(s) "spin" or "spinning" to denote a smooth and supple stroke. I try to say 'turn circles'. To me, 'spinning' implies fast rotation. Granted, track sprinters or pursuiters _ARE_ known for being able to put out smooth power at 150 rpm, but at least in my experience, my most efficient stroke lies somewhere around 90-100 rpm on the flats and around 80-85 rpm on climbs. I've often watched others hit the bottom of a climb and immediately gear down to their LOWEST gear and spin ( albeit bouncily) at about 150 rpm. It just kills their momentum. They are left to eventually grind up the whole climb in that low gear and take a lot longer to do it. Now I realize, that not all people have the same type muscles and not all people pedal the same way. When I pedal, either climbing or cruising on the flats, I try to imagine my feet going in ellipses, with the focii ( the 'skinny' ends of the ellipse ) pointing at the front and rear wheel axles. I'm trying to imagine my feet going 'forward' on the top of the stroke, and 'pulling back' on the bottom. This really seems to help smooth out my stroke and eliminate the dead spot in the stoke (a la Karin Kirk's description ) when your foot passes thru the 'chainstay-to-seat tube' portion of the stroke. In my estimation, riding a fixie didn't really make my stroke 'round' and it didn't make me 'spin'. What I think it _DID_ do was to help me feel the gear all the way around because I couldn't 'cheat' and gear down. To me, a fixed gear helps develop power. A more supple stroke is, in some ways, a by-product of that additional power.
Thanks for listening :)
Mike in AR
jeffg
07-24-2007, 05:32 AM
Clearly my views are getting a little too mainsteam. Fine, here's my opinion of gearing:
All this crap about compact gearing is just plain stupid. You have a brain which should be in control and you have legs which should have a wide range of torque output. The brain sends the signals, the legs do what their told - at least that's how it once worked. The best analogy I've ever heard on this is about dog training. If a dog starts barking at 2:00AM and you get up and feed him, what did you just teach the dog? He barks, you feed - who's in control? Same thing with gearing, it gets harder to pedal, your legs tell your brain to downshift. pretty soon you lose the ability to climb on power and your dog is running your life.
If anyone agrees with this I'll have to say something about carbon wheels - just warning you!
Your ranting about compact or low gearing is equally stupid (feel better now). To do 80rpm on the climbs I did on my last trip in a 39x29 I would need to be putting out 5-6 watts/kg. If I could do that consistently I might be able to quit my day job.
DiLuca won the Giro riding a 34x29 on the Zoncolan, and Basso used a compact when he won last year. Good thing they didn't listen to you ...
Sandy
07-24-2007, 05:42 AM
Stay out of the mainstream.
Get a cat instead of that lousy barking dog.
:)
Get a cat and keep the dog. The dog will be too busy chasing the cat to ever bark again. :) :)
Bow Wow Sandy
Sandy
07-24-2007, 06:01 AM
"Sorta" the same,, but I guess I'm splitting hairs, here. I think it's possible to make your feet go 'round in circles ( to borrow a phrase from Billy Preston ), but you aren't necessarily making those circles with power. I seldom use the term(s) "spin" or "spinning" to denote a smooth and supple stroke. I try to say 'turn circles'. To me, 'spinning' implies fast rotation. Granted, track sprinters or pursuiters _ARE_ known for being able to put out smooth power at 150 rpm, but at least in my experience, my most efficient stroke lies somewhere around 90-100 rpm on the flats and around 80-85 rpm on climbs. I've often watched others hit the bottom of a climb and immediately gear down to their LOWEST gear and spin ( albeit bouncily) at about 150 rpm. It just kills their momentum. They are left to eventually grind up the whole climb in that low gear and take a lot longer to do it. Now I realize, that not all people have the same type muscles and not all people pedal the same way. When I pedal, either climbing or cruising on the flats, I try to imagine my feet going in ellipses, with the focii ( the 'skinny' ends of the ellipse ) pointing at the front and rear wheel axles. I'm trying to imagine my feet going 'forward' on the top of the stroke, and 'pulling back' on the bottom. This really seems to help smooth out my stroke and eliminate the dead spot in the stoke (a la Karin Kirk's description ) when your foot passes thru the 'chainstay-to-seat tube' portion of the stroke. In my estimation, riding a fixie didn't really make my stroke 'round' and it didn't make me 'spin'. What I think it _DID_ do was to help me feel the gear all the way around because I couldn't 'cheat' and gear down. To me, a fixed gear helps develop power. A more supple stroke is, in some ways, a by-product of that additional power.
Thanks for listening :)
Mike in AR
Your analysis and Karin Kirk's analysis on pedal stroke seems spot on to me. I actually do try to picture or get the feel of a "round" (an elliptical stroke-don't think that the pedal stroke is circular) stroke as you and she describes it. I feel that motion when I am pedalling a little better. Often, however, that feel is not there, especially on the steeper hills, where it simply deteriorates into me mashing down on the pedals to get the crankarms to simply turn over so that I can get up the hill.The mashing down on the pedals simply destroys the pedal stroke. I even notice it when chasing someone on the flats. When I am turning the cranks over and over as you and Karin articulated, I feel my feet are moving as you describe. But, if I try too hard, I find myself mashing down on the pedals trying to get more power. But if I back off some and concentrate, I can generate more speed without tiring so quickly.
Great post. Yours, not mine.
Still Snail Slow Sandy
Sandy
07-24-2007, 06:11 AM
I have total respect and actually real admiration for those who ride a fixed gear- Smiley, Rapid Tourist, Flydhest,....I have watched them ride and it really is a thing of beauty to see how they so easily pedal and make turns. I was going to try it, and even bought a rear wheel to make my CSI (departed now) into a fixie. But, I am simply afraid to try it, as I really don't think I am as capable in handling a bike as most all who ride them, and hence I am simply afraid that I will hurt myself doing it. I think a fixed gear bike will definitely make you stronger, as a function of having to pedal all the time in one gear. I am not sure as to whether it will actually improve pedal stroke as much as some of you think. Some say it does, some say it does not. I do think that it would be a world of fun. I just don't think that I have the talent.
Sort of like me with dogs and cats. I think that I could handle a large number of dogs and I would do fine. But if I started handling a few cats, I think that I would quickly get bit or scratched. A fixed gear seems like a cat to me....A geared bike seems like a dog to me. I feel comfortable with a dog, but not a cat. Cats scare me a little.
Scared Siamese Sandy
Ti Designs
07-24-2007, 06:24 AM
Ti, you spend much time riding fixed?
There must be someone else on this forum who sees the humor in this...
Your ranting about compact or low gearing is equally stupid (feel better now). To do 80rpm on the climbs I did on my last trip in a 39x29 I would need to be putting out 5-6 watts/kg. If I could do that consistently I might be able to quit my day job.
I feel much better - thanks! You know your gearing, you know the wattage needed, you've skipped the part about technique. Climbing on power means putting your body weight on the pedals. At 80 RPMs the pedals aren't going to support your weight and you're going to be putting most of the downward force at the bottom of the pedal stroke where it's wasted energy.
I teach my riders to have multiple ways of getting up a hill, spinning is the easy one to teach, climbing on power keeps you in contact with the group better.
DiLuca won the Giro riding a 34x29 on the Zoncolan, and Basso used a compact when he won last year. Good thing they didn't listen to you ...
I don't follow pro racing at all, but I'll bet my house that you're neither of those guys. You gear based on the hills, this compact gearing madness has everybody gearing like they live in the alps - they don't.
Let's bring this back on track with the rest of the thread, how does one who only knows how to spin up hills ride a fixed gear? Nobody wants to wait while you flip the wheel around at the bottom of every hill, so you can gear for going up and get your legs ripped off on the way down, you can gear for the way down and walk up, or you can learn to climb on power...
Pull out Hoover. Turn it on. Enjoy the pain.
Are you saying that climbing sucks???
Ti Designs
07-24-2007, 06:32 AM
Stay out of the mainstream.
Get a cat instead of that lousy barking dog.
Stay WAY out of the mainstream, get a Llama and stop paying so much for those retro jerseys.
Sandy
07-24-2007, 06:41 AM
I bought a compact based upon advice that because I spin so fast, a compact would be good for me. But after purchasing it, I find, for some reason that I am spending more time in bigger gears, and pedalling slower. I often find myself in the 50/13 or 50/12 on the flats. I think that is the case because I can feel myself turning over the pedals more smoothly in those gears. I guess I do it, because I am not smooth enough in other gears and I realize that when I am in lower gears.
About actual gears in a compact- I had a 53/39 with a 12/27 and now have a 50/34 with the 12/27. You don't (as you know because you know a zillion times more than I will ever know) lose larger gears with a compact, except the biggest gear- 53/12 which I would never or could never climb anything in. You actually have larger gears, with that one exception, in the 50/34 than in the 53/39. You also have one significantly lower gear- 34/27. You do find it necessary, however to shift from one chainring to another more often in the compact setup.
I still want to visit you in Boston..... You are the real deal, as they say.....
Sandy
I have total respect and actually real admiration for those who ride a fixed gear- Smiley, Rapid Tourist, Flydhest,....I have watched them ride and it really is a thing of beauty to see how they so easily pedal and make turns. I was going to try it, and even bought a rear wheel to make my CSI (departed now) into a fixie. But, I am simply afraid to try it, as I really don't think I am as capable in handling a bike as most all who ride them, and hence I am simply afraid that I will hurt myself doing it. I think a fixed gear bike will definitely make you stronger, as a function of having to pedal all the time in one gear. I am not sure as to whether it will actually improve pedal stroke as much as some of you think. Some say it does, some say it does not. I do think that it would be a world of fun. I just don't think that I have the talent.
Sort of like me with dogs and cats. I think that I could handle a large number of dogs and I would do fine. But if I started handling a few cats, I think that I would quickly get bit or scratched. A fixed gear seems like a cat to me....A geared bike seems like a dog to me. I feel comfortable with a dog, but not a cat. Cats scare me a little.
Scared Siamese Sandy
Talent? But I can do it. I'm just sayin'...
You've seen and admired people with no particular talent or skill when it comes to bike handling...let's say, folks who ride the brake a lot whenever a corner is coming. I'm not saying who it is, or whether it's anybody on your short list above (surely not). You have plenty of talent and developed ability to pursue this, if you'd like to. Just borrow something and go someplace flat and easy, like Haines Point. Go slow and take nice mellow turns for 15 minutes. Go home and let it sink in that everything was just fine. Do that a few more times and you'll find yourself getting the hang of it.
You don't have to do this at all if you don't want to. There are plenty of ways to ride and have fun (and to train and get stronger) without a fixed gear bike. But if you want to try a fixed gear bike, go ahead and try it -- you'll do fine.
Sandy
07-24-2007, 06:47 AM
Now pain is an interesting and important concept in cycling. One reason, and an important reason why I really don't improve to much in cycling is my approach to pain and discomfort. To really improve, one has to push himself or herself to the point that pain and discomfort is there, I think. But then is the fun still there? I tend to simply back off when My legs start to hurt or my breathin becomes a problem (legs first). I also tend to look out for slower cyclists who fall behind and that makes me ride slower if I stay with them.
You have to balance the pain with the fun. How much pain? How much fun? I know a lot of cyclists that simply push and push alomost all the time during a ride. Their average speed tells it all, relative to success on a ride. I really question that concept, and I guess that is why I suck and probably always will.
Sandy
palincss
07-24-2007, 06:57 AM
Are these recommendations for a fixed in general, or as they apply to one legged pedaling drills as suggested by Ginger? :confused:
My comment was in relation to Ginger's about one legged drills being a reason to ride the trainer in the summertime. Trainer? Indoors, in summer? The best thing about a trainer, especially WRT one-legged drills is that it is a fixed gear; but honestly, wouldn't you rather be outside?
Ti Designs
07-24-2007, 06:59 AM
I bought a compact based upon advice that because I spin so fast, a compact would be good for me. But after purchasing it, I find, for some reason that I am spending more time in bigger gears, and pedalling slower. I often find myself in the 50/13 or 50/12 on the flats. I think that is the case because I can feel myself turning over the pedals more smoothly in those gears. I guess I do it, because I am not smooth enough in other gears and I realize that when I am in lower gears.
Yeh, I could have guessed that. Lots of people feel they are smooth in larger gears - they aren't the big gear masks problems within the pedal stroke. The trick is to figure out the muscle firing order and make it second nature. To do that you pretty much have to unlearn what you've done for the past years. I talk about doing this over the winter 'cause nobody wants to end their season in July.
You do find it necessary, however to shift from one chainring to another more often in the compact setup.
Tell me about it. I live in a somewhat flat area, yet lots of people run compact gearing. Between all of the front derailleur rubbing and front shifting and always searching for just the right gear I have to wonder why people do that to themselves.
I still want to visit you in Boston..... You are the real deal, as they say.....
But what if you come up for a week, we work on form and technique and we set up a winter program and next spring you're climbing much better? People might agree with what I say and the next thing you know ebay will be flooded with compact cranks...
Ti Designs
07-24-2007, 07:13 AM
My comment was in relation to Ginger's about one legged drills being a reason to ride the trainer in the summertime. Trainer? Indoors, in summer? The best thing about a trainer, especially WRT one-legged drills is that it is a fixed gear; but honestly, wouldn't you rather be outside?
Having done my share of pedal stroke work, I know when my pedal stroke is off and it bugs the crap out of me on the road. Engine working - great ride, engine not working - suckfest. If it keeps me happy when I'm on the road I will gladly sit on the trainer once or twice in-season. Wait a second, don't y'all watch the tour? You could sit on the sofa with the chips and salsa, or you can set up the spare TV in front of the trainer. See all the fast guys with the perfect pedal stroke? Yeh, that's what it should look like...
Fixed gear on the trainer??? See, there are all kinds of things I don't know about riding fixed - maybe I'll try it some day... Must make interval work interesting. Shift into the 42/17 for 30 seconds and push yourself well into zone 5, then drop back to the 24/17 for 90 seconds of recovery. Am I missing something here? Does Sram make a fixed gear shifter?
93legendti
07-24-2007, 07:14 AM
Ti, you spend much time riding fixed?
Riding fixed WILL smooth out your pedal stroke much faster than riding a freewheel bike (the caveat is that you have to really be conscious of wanting to work on your pedal stroke and working on it while riding fixed)...It does work and for both legs.
Just sayin'
Steve
Steve, I think Ti Designs rides fixed at least 4 months a year (if my math is correct):
http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=28183&highlight=fixed
and he once rode Mt. Washington in 1:05.
Hey Ti, I agree with you. Here in flat Michigan, some of my riding mates with Mike Walton "disease" (small gears!) rarely seem to touch their big rings--makes me wonder how they will ever develop power and what will they do if they ever see a mountain?
Too Tall
07-24-2007, 07:27 AM
Not entirely off topic this fixed gear stuff because it does relate to development. I was schooled by the old guys who taught me to ride crapola fixed gear in the off season for 1500 miles. It forced you to get the f out of the big ring for a while and saved wear and tear on your rig during foul weather and THAT'S IT! General consensus was you lost strength riding a fixie too much...anyone riding something other than between a 68" and 74" gear was a nut job.
Once off the fixed gear after 1500 miles you'll appreciate that a good pedal stroke on your road machine has very little to do with the time you spent on fixed gear and everything to do with your attention to good form.
Sorry Snandyboy, had to clear my vents ;)
Sandy
07-24-2007, 07:46 AM
One more thing - find a MEAN dog - I mean a MEAN dog and start up the hill... as you pass the dog's house, you will find yourself able to FLY! Watch out for Truckie in the Ellicott City area...he is known to frequent the hills looking for prey...
Sandy,
You know that some of the best local hills in the MD/DC/Balt area are in Ellicott City...
Hmmm...
Illchester perhaps? :banana:
Actually, I always stop when a dog chases me, as I simultaneously and loudly admonish the dog. That has, thus far, always worked for me. Normally, I intreract with the dog amd often wind up peting him or her. Dogs are normally in it for the chase (especially herding breed dogs like shepherds) and they really don't want to bite you. Some want to let you know that you are near their property.
I would enjoy riding with you again. Just let me know when. Now about Illchester...I think for now I will pass on that one...maybe one day....I remember a mountain goat slowing down, stopping, and dropping and dying, trying to climb that hill.... I'll leave that to you and whoever wants to try that monster...
I ain't afraid of the Truckie guy. Strong and tough guy, but a heart of gold inside....
Sandy
Len J
07-24-2007, 08:41 AM
This stuff about 'riding beyond your 'pain' kills me! Can somebody tell me what 'pain' we're talking about here? I've never experienced it, and would like to find out what it is.
During a long ride, going up serious hills (10km plus at 6-12% is a 'serious' hill for me, if definition is required), I might start getting some pain along the sides in my lower back, but I'm sure that's not what's meant here. Occasionally, if I'm really starting to run on empty, I might also end up with cramping/involuntary muscle twitching in my leg muscles, but I'm sure that's not it either. Neither stops me from riding.
Where I do find a limit is plain and simple running out of air. Basically there comes a point where I just can't get one more cubic centimetre of air per minute in and out of my lungs, and that's the limiting factor in my climbing speed every time. If that's what's called the 'pain threshold', then forget going beyond it - there's no pop psychology going on at that moment, there's just oyxgen and red blood cells, and the mind can go as nuts as it wants but physics rules the situation every time. When I ride for a long time up against that red zone continuously, it takes me a day or two to get over, so I'm sure I'm pushing my body to its limits allright and there's never much left in the tank at the end of a ride like that.
I guess I'm a skeptic about this 'mind over matter' stuff, I don't believe anybody can extract more oxygen from air just be willing themselves to do so. But I'd be interested to find out what people are calling 'pain' - are they are talking about 'discomfort' instead?
anything that hurts is by my definition pain. Obviously, there are different levels or degrees of pain. When it starts to hurt in the legs (maybe you just call it discomfort), you can still ride. When it really starts to hurt in the legs, you can still ride. When your gasping, you can still push further than you think you can. Most/many people break mentally & quit long before their body actually fails.
Len
regularguy412
07-24-2007, 08:43 AM
I bought a compact based upon advice that because I spin so fast, a compact would be good for me. But after purchasing it, I find, for some reason that I am spending more time in bigger gears, and pedalling slower. I often find myself in the 50/13 or 50/12 on the flats. I think that is the case because I can feel myself turning over the pedals more smoothly in those gears. I guess I do it, because I am not smooth enough in other gears and I realize that when I am in lower gears.
About actual gears in a compact- I had a 53/39 with a 12/27 and now have a 50/34 with the 12/27. You don't (as you know because you know a zillion times more than I will ever know) lose larger gears with a compact, except the biggest gear- 53/12 which I would never or could never climb anything in. You actually have larger gears, with that one exception, in the 50/34 than in the 53/39. You also have one significantly lower gear- 34/27. You do find it necessary, however to shift from one chainring to another more often in the compact setup.
I still want to visit you in Boston..... You are the real deal, as they say.....
Sandy
Next time you're out, try a li'l experiment. Look for a nice, relatively short (1/2 mile) 5%-6% grade. As you cruise up to the bottom at 16-18 mph, slip the bike into the 50/11 or 50/12 gear combo. Resist the temptation to just 'mash' the gear from only the top side. Try to apply even, smooth power all around the pedal stroke using the 'push-pull' technique. Drop your heel as each foot comes up toward the top of the stroke ( kudos again to Karin ). As your foot nears horizontal (at the front wheel), think 'Chicken' ( no,, not Rassmussen), but try to 'claw' or scratch the ground with the bottom of your foot; just like a chicken would do, looking for food.
As you go through this li'l experiment, it should become very evident to you just 'where' within the pedal stroke you are losing the ability to put out smooth, even power.
Work on the portions of the stroke that seem lacking. As you get better at making circles, do this experiment again; this time on a slightly steeper grade. You may think you won't be able to do it, but you can. You might just amaze yourself.
Mike in AR
My comment was in relation to Ginger's about one legged drills being a reason to ride the trainer in the summertime. Trainer? Indoors, in summer? The best thing about a trainer, especially WRT one-legged drills is that it is a fixed gear; but honestly, wouldn't you rather be outside?The reason I originally questioned if you guys meant riding a fixed bike one-legged is because it doesn't make sense to me. Doesn't it completely defeat the purpose for doing single-legged pedaling drills?
The main advantage of doing single-legged drills as I understand it is that it forces the rider to pull up because if he doesn’t, the freewheel takes over. If you ride a fixed single-legged, the bikes momentum can carry the leg up even if the rider doesn’t pull up at all.
If you want to train both legs simultaneously as if riding one-legged, the only way I know is to use PowerCranks. And this works only because it has an individual ratcheting system for each crank arm.
I was not questioning the other benefits of fixed bikes or how much fun they can be, just as they apply to one-legged pedaling drills.
This stuff about 'riding beyond your 'pain' kills me! Can somebody tell me what 'pain' we're talking about here? I've never experienced it, and would like to find out what it is.
During a long ride, going up serious hills (10km plus at 6-12% is a 'serious' hill for me, if definition is required), I might start getting some pain along the sides in my lower back, but I'm sure that's not what's meant here. Occasionally, if I'm really starting to run on empty, I might also end up with cramping/involuntary muscle twitching in my leg muscles, but I'm sure that's not it either. Neither stops me from riding.
Where I do find a limit is plain and simple running out of air. Basically there comes a point where I just can't get one more cubic centimetre of air per minute in and out of my lungs, and that's the limiting factor in my climbing speed every time. If that's what's called the 'pain threshold', then forget going beyond it - there's no pop psychology going on at that moment, there's just oyxgen and red blood cells, and the mind can go as nuts as it wants but physics rules the situation every time. When I ride for a long time up against that red zone continuously, it takes me a day or two to get over, so I'm sure I'm pushing my body to its limits allright and there's never much left in the tank at the end of a ride like that.
I guess I'm a skeptic about this 'mind over matter' stuff, I don't believe anybody can extract more oxygen from air just be willing themselves to do so. But I'd be interested to find out what people are calling 'pain' - are they are talking about 'discomfort' instead?Same here.
When I'm in shape, I rarely or never hurt on long climbs. My legs are so much stronger than my lungs that I run out of air way before any pain becomes a factor.
No, you don't actually pull up on the upstroke - you are correct that it would make you excessively tired.
The key is eliminating the big dead spot that you get in your pedal stroke if you just stomp each foot through the floor. If you do that, there is a sizable lull at the bottom (or top) of each stroke.I get a lot of benefit from pulling up when climbing (particularly in seated position) because my hamstrings are stronger than my quads. This allows me to push a taller gear which maximizes my limited oxygen capacity.
Isn’t pulling up the main reason why we do one-legged drills or buy PowerCranks?
3chordwonder
07-24-2007, 09:00 AM
Thanks Len, I suspected as much - one persons climbing pain is anothers discomfort (within reason). I'm either putting up with it or maybe my aerobic ability is so far below what my legs can theoretically manage that I've never really been able to push them into meltdown (other than some muscle twitching freakout thing going on). Lack of genuine fitness sounds like a more reasonable explanation, since I'm no Lance.
Fixed I think this may be the very first thread I've seen you suggest someone throw money at a problem, (Move to Florida) ever. :)
But...that does solve the hill issue.Ever hear of Mount Dora, elevation 175 feet?
regularguy412
07-24-2007, 09:17 AM
I get a lot of benefit from pulling up when climbing (particularly in seated position) because my hamstrings are stronger than my quads. This allows me to push a taller gear which maximizes my limited oxygen capacity.
Isn’t pulling up the main reason why we do one-legged drills or buy PowerCranks?
-- you're using your hamstrings, then you are pulling 'back' (through the back of the heel of your shoe, as if trying to scrape mud from the bottom of your cleat by uising the pedal spindle) -- which is _EXACTLY_ the way to do it.
I'm no kinesiologist or sports physiologist ( didn't even sleep in a Holiday Inn last nite, either), but from what I've been able to learn -- the muscles used in raising the femur to a horizontal position are not very large when compared to the size of the quads, glutes and hamstrings. Additionally, the femur raising muscles are not in the most mechanically advantageous position, either. So, concentrating 'only' on pulling up is not as effective as concentrating on pulling 'back' ( through the bottom of the stroke). [Yes. I know that the Rectus Femoris is one of the quads and that one of its functions is to raise the femur. It's also a two-joint muscle, i.e., it crosses both the hip and the knee. Depending on its angle and which other muscles are involved, it either extends the lower leg (as part of the quads) or raisies the femur.]
That said, thinking about pulling 'up' when climbing is actually helpful. Even though those muscles are not really helping much, every little bit _DOES_ help. I try to concentrate on dropping my heel as my foot comes up through the stroke. I do this by pulling UP ( yes , I said that ) with my toes. This brings the tibialis anterior (the muscle just to the outside of your shin bone on the front of your lower leg) into use.
Now you may say that if you pull up with your toes, it pulls down against your femur. This is true. Just remember that you have a leg on the opposite side of the bike that is 180 degrees ahead of the other and, whether you like it or not, _IT_ is helping get the opposite foot through the pedal stroke.
OK. I'll shup now. Thanks for listening. :beer:
Mike in AR
Sandy
07-24-2007, 09:36 AM
So NOW you tell me. Why didn't you let me know years ago- "...you have a leg on the opposite side of the bike.....helping get......" You mean to say that I am allowed to pedal with both legs at the same time?? Would that help in my climbing?? I need to know. :rolleyes: :)
Simple Sandy
Fixed
07-24-2007, 10:48 AM
bro want to climb then climb climb climb ..do you love to climb is that the best part of a ride? climbers are born but they still have to train for it .imho
cheers
Karin Kirk
07-24-2007, 10:53 AM
at the level most of us are at.. i doubt its that we're limited by the ratio of watts per kilo. most everyday folks don't climb well because they either don't work on it as a skill, can't deal with suffering, or are inefficient on the bike.
all this stuff kicks in long before you pull off because you can't put out killer watts per kilo.
a lot of climbing is in your head.
atmo.
YES!! I'm glad you said that. It saved me a lot of typing.
regularguy412
07-24-2007, 11:15 AM
So NOW you tell me. Why didn't you let me know years ago- "...you have a leg on the opposite side of the bike.....helping get......" You mean to say that I am allowed to pedal with both legs at the same time?? Would that help in my climbing?? I need to know. :rolleyes: :)
Simple Sandy
LOL :beer:
I guess there's really no such thing as a perfectly 'round' stroke. Pretty difficult to separate the two sides , even with one leg pedaling practice, Power Cranks, or even the old BioPace chainrings.
Mike in AR :)
jeffg
07-24-2007, 11:15 AM
I feel much better - thanks! You know your gearing, you know the wattage needed, you've skipped the part about technique. Climbing on power means putting your body weight on the pedals. At 80 RPMs the pedals aren't going to support your weight and you're going to be putting most of the downward force at the bottom of the pedal stroke where it's wasted energy.
I teach my riders to have multiple ways of getting up a hill, spinning is the easy one to teach, climbing on power keeps you in contact with the group better.
MAYBE IT DOES FOR ONE CLIMB OR TWO -- TRY SIX. ALSO, CLIMBING AT 80+ RPM TAKES ADAPTATION FOR MOST RIDERS (SEE YOUR OWN COMMENTS ON LEG SPEED)
I don't follow pro racing at all, but I'll bet my house that you're neither of those guys. You gear based on the hills, this compact gearing madness has everybody gearing like they live in the alps - they don't.
I MAY NOT LIVE IN THE ALPS BUT IN THE PAST TWO YEARS EVERY MAJOR RIDE I HAVE TRAINED FOR HAS BEEN THERE. MY POINT IS THAT IF DILUCA USES A 34X29 TO DO THE ZONCOLAN THAN I NEED LOW GEARS TO GET OVER THE MORTIROLO AFTER DOING THE GAVIA. YOU SHOULD HAVE SEEN FOLKS WITH A 39X27 WALKING THE MORTIROLO AFTER ABOUT 1KM (OUT OF 12.5). MUST HAVE BEEN A LONG WALK! ALSO, IF YOU DO A 48X34 OR 50X36 YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE THE SHIFT MUCH MORE THAN WITH A 53X39.
Let's bring this back on track with the rest of the thread, how does one who only knows how to spin up hills ride a fixed gear? Nobody wants to wait while you flip the wheel around at the bottom of every hill, so you can gear for going up and get your legs ripped off on the way down, you can gear for the way down and walk up, or you can learn to climb on power...
CAN'T SPEAK TO FIX GEAR RIDING. THE RIDING ON POWER THING IS SOMETHING I'LL LOOK INTO RIDING A GEARED BIKE. FORCE A GEAR ON YOURSELF AND DON'T SHIFT.
[/QUOTE]
Bob Ross
07-24-2007, 11:19 AM
and when I think I can't go any further....I go further.
I gotta admit, this is the only bit that really resonates with my approach to climbing. Not because I don't do any (or perhaps all?) of the other things that people have suggested here, but because I suck at self-analysis. I have no idea how I do what I do.
People tell me I'm a gifted climber...and I think the operative word there is "gift". It's not like I worked at it or specifically targetted climbing as an area I wanted to improve. I just happen to climb very well. And when people ask me *how* I do it, all I can tell them is
"I pedal faster."
Road gets steep? Road gets long? Legs start to hurt? Running out of gears? Whatever... I just pedal faster. It takes a serious Force Of Will to make your legs go faster when you think they're already at their max...but it's my contention that (within reason) that's *ALL* it takes.
Force Of Will.
(Now you know why I'm *not* a cycling coach...)
SoCalSteve
07-24-2007, 11:25 AM
I gotta admit, this is the only bit that really resonates with my approach to climbing. Not because I don't do any (or perhaps all?) of the other things that people have suggested here, but because I suck at self-analysis. I have no idea how I do what I do.
People tell me I'm a gifted climber...and I think the operative word there is "gift". It's not like I worked at it or specifically targetted climbing as an area I wanted to improve. I just happen to climb very well. And when people ask me *how* I do it, all I can tell them is
"I pedal faster."
Road gets steep? Road gets long? Legs start to hurt? Running out of gears? Whatever... I just pedal faster. It takes a serious Force Of Will to make your legs go faster when you think they're already at their max...but it's my contention that (within reason) that's *ALL* it takes.
Force Of Will.
(Now you know why I'm *not* a cycling coach...)
You may make the BEST cycling coach of all!
Steve
Sandy
07-24-2007, 11:30 AM
I gotta admit, this is the only bit that really resonates with my approach to climbing. Not because I don't do any (or perhaps all?) of the other things that people have suggested here, but because I suck at self-analysis. I have no idea how I do what I do.
People tell me I'm a gifted climber...and I think the operative word there is "gift". It's not like I worked at it or specifically targetted climbing as an area I wanted to improve. I just happen to climb very well. And when people ask me *how* I do it, all I can tell them is
"I pedal faster."
Road gets steep? Road gets long? Legs start to hurt? Running out of gears? Whatever... I just pedal faster. It takes a serious Force Of Will to make your legs go faster when you think they're already at their max...but it's my contention that (within reason) that's *ALL* it takes.
Force Of Will.
(Now you know why I'm *not* a cycling coach...)
I get one clear message from your post. I will just have to be willing to suffer a little. Normally, if it gets difficult, I just back off.
Wimp Sandy
Kevan
07-24-2007, 12:21 PM
I've found this dog to help chase you up any hill. Some details about the beast:
- He was given the name Sue.
- He was nursed on vinegar.
- His idea of what an affectionate pat is... is a kick to the ribs.
- He finds his own dinner.
- Speaking of which, there are no cats living within 25 miles of his home.
- No one knows for sure where he finds the large bones he finds, but it don't much matter... as they're quickly consumed anyways.
- Everyone living on his street is required to have a PO box. In fact the whole town does. The last mailman ain't been seen since last fall.
- The police have stopped responding.
You get the idea. Let me know when you think you're ready.
Sandy
07-24-2007, 12:33 PM
I've found this dog to help chase you up any hill. Some details about the beast:
- He was given the name Sue.
- He was nursed on vinegar.
- His idea of what an affectionate pat is... is a kick to the ribs.
- He finds his own dinner.
- Speaking of which, there are no cats living within 25 miles of his home.
- No one knows for sure where he finds the large bones he finds, but it don't much matter... as they're quickly consumed anyways.
- Everyone living on his street is required to have a PO box. In fact the whole town does. The last mailman ain't been seen since last fall.
- The police have stopped responding.
You get the idea. Let me know when you think you're ready.
Are you sure that Sue's real name isn't Rex, as in Tyrannosaurus Rex? Bring Sue on. I ain't afraid of no dog...maybe a little afraid....
Shaking Scared Serotta Sandy
Ti Designs
07-24-2007, 12:53 PM
I don't follow pro racing at all, but I'll bet my house that you're neither of those guys. You gear based on the hills, this compact gearing madness has everybody gearing like they live in the alps - they don't.
I MAY NOT LIVE IN THE ALPS BUT IN THE PAST TWO YEARS EVERY MAJOR RIDE I HAVE TRAINED FOR HAS BEEN THERE.
I guess if you ride in the alps it's OK to have gearing like you're riding in the alps. If you're tooling around Wisconsin and you're geared for the alps it's another story...
bro want to climb then climb climb climb
Sandy's gotten that advice in one form or another from many people for as long as I've been on the forum. Didn't work then, ain't working so well now. It's kinda like me trying to grow a lawn, every year I try the same thing, it never works (next year I'm planting weeds and hope for grass to grow instead). I've seen a lot of people struggle with poor form on hills, but they think they're making progress because they're climbing. Same thing goes for fixed gear riding, time on the fixed means your pedal stroke is going to be round, right? Nope!
Practice doesn't make perfect, it perfects what you're practicing. Who wants to practice sucking on hills?
Fixed
07-24-2007, 01:24 PM
when I was a swimmer someone asked the coach how to swim faster the answer was swim faster .bro yeah I was better swimmer than i will ever be as a cyclist
cheers
davids
07-24-2007, 01:32 PM
Ed,
I rode with a guy last week. Along the way, we climbed Wampatuck Road in the Blue Hills. It's about a mile long, rises 200 feet (with several short downhills) - Not a killer, but a real climb. He did it in his 53-12, while I "spun" along behind him in my 39-23. He seemed perfectly comfortable, and while I couldn't really examine his pedal stroke, he certainly wasn't pulling on the bars, shifting in the saddle, etc. Never got out of the saddle, either. I'd never seen anything like it.
What do you think - Is this power training or was he killing his knees?
And don't tell me you can't answer this question on the Internet! I won't believe it.
p.s. I'm experimenting with a compact on my Seven, which is spending the summer with me riding the steeper hills of central Maine. With a 34-50, the jump between the rings is too big. I think I'm going to have to try a 36-50, with a 12-27 in the back.
Just remember that you have a leg on the opposite side of the bike that is 180 degrees ahead of the other and, whether you like it or not, _IT_ is helping get the opposite foot through the pedal stroke.Mike, isn't that the main reason for doing OLPD, or to use PowerCranks?
It simply forces the rider to pull up or the leg will just remain at the bottom.
There is nothing else there to get it up, right?
Ed,
I rode with a guy last week. Along the way, we climbed Wampatuck Road in the Blue Hills. It's about a mile long, rises 200 feet (with several short downhills) - Not a killer, but a real climb. He did it in his 53-12, while I "spun" along behind him in my 39-23. He seemed perfectly comfortable, and while I couldn't really examine his pedal stroke, he certainly wasn't pulling on the bars, shifting in the saddle, etc. Never got out of the saddle, either. I'd never seen anything like it.
What do you think - Is this power training or was he killing his knees?Davids, it sounds tougher than it really is. With a rise of 200 feet in a mile, the slope is only about 3.8 percent. Granted a 53/12 is tough, but from a torque-to-cranks standpoint, it's no different than climbing a 10 percent grade in a 39/23, which doesn't sound all that tough. I'd guess most who read this forum have done it.
To me it's more strength training, not a knee killer.
Rapid Tourist
07-24-2007, 03:31 PM
I too am working on climbing, and I suck but at least I suck less than I used to suck. I would like to suck even less than I suck right now.
So for all of the gifted climbers in forumland, I ask you:
1. What is the correct role for standing in climbing? I currently stand out of the saddle at different timeswhile climbing, sometimes at the bigenning, sometimes just before the crest of a hill. Are there any good rules of thumb here? Should I stay seated?
2. I often find myself pulling on the handlebars when I climb. For example, sometimes I pull on the right hood when I'm stroking down with the left foot, and vice versa. Sometimes I think this helps. Is this the wrong approach? Should I hold the hoods lightly without pulling??
Anyone???? Thanks!!
regularguy412
07-24-2007, 04:20 PM
Mike, isn't that the main reason for doing OLPD, or to use PowerCranks?
It simply forces the rider to pull up or the leg will just remain at the bottom.
There is nothing else there to get it up, right?
I'm a li'l outta school on the Power Crank issue,since I've never used them. However, I do understand the theory. Sort of an OPLD technique without having to unclip on one side.
When learning to turn circles, I really just concentrated on trying to drag both feet through the bottom of the stroke (while keeping my heel parallel with the pedal spindle or slightly lower!). My contention is, re: 'two feet attached to pedals', that at the end of a tough double metric and one is heading up the last long climb, even those with the best technique get a little sloppy. Those little 'pulling-up' muscles have long since gone away. However, your glutes and hamstrings are still likely 'in there' , pulling.
I base this on my own, albeit anecdotal, evidence. I changed my position to one in which the saddle is quite 'behind', relative to the BB (saddle nose approx 4.5 cm behind). With that amount of saddle setback coupled with my femur length, foot length and 172.5 mm cranks, the KOPS occurs fairly high up on the front side of the pedal circle. My tibial tuberosity is *well* behind the pedal spindle with the cranks horizontal ( though I haven't measured it). I discovered this approach worked _MUCH_ better for me after racing and training on different geometry (more forward) and on 170 mm cranks for 7 years. The 'behind' position also helps smooth out my stroke, improve my power and helps me get the pedal through the top of the stroke more efficiently.
If one is willing to experiment with positioning, equipment and pedaling technique, one may find that the 'forwrd-pull back' method is more efficient than the 'up-down' method.
It werked fer mi. ( Huk'd own Foniks)
Mike in AR :)
OH- and if one does not have Power Cranks, then, yes, your other foot _IS_ assisting getting the behind foot to come up through the pedal stroke. IMHO, it can't be helped. Your hamstrings, though strong, are positioned such that they have a weaker mechanical advantage than your quads. That's why one's quads usually burn before one's hamstrings on a climb, as they are still doing the majority of the work.
regularguy412
07-24-2007, 04:35 PM
-- I'll go first, Rapid Tourist.
Seated climbing is more efficient -- even moreso if you are able to make circles.
I usually don't ever stand, unless the grade is too steep or the lowest gear I have is too high for me to stay 'on top ' of the gear ( still turn a decent cadence 80-85 rpm).
When seated and climbing, I almost _ALWAYS_ climb with my hands on the tops -- a more upright position. I don't pull too hard on the bars unless I'm doing a maximum effort. As Eddy Mercks said, " your hands should be out in front lightly holding the bars,, as if you are playing the piano." Contrary to the conventional wisdom,, I use a 'monkey grip' -- all fingers and my thumbs around the front of the bar,, so I'm not tempted to put a 'death grip' on the bars. I hook my fingers around under the brake cables which I make sure to tape to the front of the bar (especially for this purpose). It gives me a good place to hold onto, without having to squeeze.
Another little 'trick' is to try to anticipate what gear you can climb the _WHOLE_ hill in. Pick that gear just before you hit the bottom of the climb and spin it as the hill begins. Then try to hold that cadence as long as you can -- eventually letting your cadence decrease slightly as you get farther up the hill. As you near the top ( and may begin to suffer ), do NOT gear down. Gear UP. Hit the next larger cog and 'muscle' the gear. When you run out of spin, you usually have some 'mash' left. USE IT. The trick is to not use your 'mash' on the flats. Then you'll have some left for the hills.
Hope this helps.
Mike in AR
2. I often find myself pulling on the handlebars when I climb. For example, sometimes I pull on the right hood when I'm stroking down with the left foot, and vice versa. Sometimes I think this helps. Is this the wrong approach? Should I hold the hoods lightly without pulling??
Anyone???? Thanks!!RT, I'm not an expert, but will give you my $0.02 nonetheless.
Different people have different styles of climbing. Pulling the bars is probably out of necessity for those who prefer to lean the bike from side to side as they climb while standing.
I prefer to keep my center of gravity over the bike's centerline as much as possible and rely on my legs rather than on the upper body. One workout that I find fun and interesting is to climb hands off the bar when the grade is not too steep -- so that I can maintain at least 8-10 MPH. This teaches me to stay centered over the bike.
3chordwonder
07-24-2007, 06:59 PM
"It takes a serious Force Of Will to make your legs go faster when you think they're already at their max...but it's my contention that (within reason) that's *ALL* it takes. Force Of Will."
- No offence, but I'll assume you happen to be built to suit climbing and have lucked into a good technique that fits you, because I'm not buying all that 'force of will overriding your Vo2 max' motivational stuff.
What burns my toast is the implication that those climbing slower than you are mentally weak, instead of just being less fit or carrying more weight or some other blindingly obvious explanation.
When you are overtaken up a hill by a faster rider, do you then also put that down to your own weak willpower - and can you then find the extra power to pass that rider? I'd be interested to see a proponent of the mind over matter concept ride up a cat 1 behind Contador and see if they might argue that Contador is outriding them because he's better physically, or if they flagellate themselves over just being weakwilled.
- *edit* - I just saw the 'within reason' bit in the OP's comment - I guess that's a get out of jail free card. But it also kind of negates the rest of the statement saying that willpower is ALL it takes to be a good climber.
Sandy
07-24-2007, 07:33 PM
ride the hills and manage to HR monitor.....Practice improves performance.
Come ride with me in ASHEVILLE - I am s-l-o-w
PETE
Will you have some time in August? I would enjoy that.
Sandy
Sandy
07-24-2007, 07:39 PM
I want to thank everyone for their insightful, helpful, and wise responses to my initial post. Serottaland and the Serotta Forum are the best since the contributors are the best....cyling knowledge...and more importantly, the best people...really!
Sandy
slowgoing
07-24-2007, 08:31 PM
My climbing training works best when I use a HRM. Keep the heart rate at 172 or less for longer aerobic training, take short intervals over 172. Over time, I can go longer and longer distances before the heart rate inevitably drifts above 172.
Karin Kirk
07-24-2007, 11:00 PM
- No offence, but I'll assume you happen to be built to suit climbing and have lucked into a good technique that fits you, because I'm not buying all that 'force of will overriding your Vo2 max' motivational stuff.
No, you can't override your VO2 Max, but I think the point that has been made is that many people don't ride UP to their VO2 max - they have a difficult time pushing themselves to that point.
It's not meant as any slight to anyone's character if you aren't a proponent of self-punishment. Only the serious racers need to be able to do that. For the rest of us, we ride within reason and push ourselves when we can. Being able to push yourself makes a huge difference, it really does. But that's nothing against anyone who doesn't care to do that.
When you are overtaken up a hill by a faster rider, do you then also put that down to your own weak willpower - and can you then find the extra power to pass that rider?
Absolutely yes. I have been in that situation plenty of times. I wouldn't necessarily say it's due to weak willpower, it's just that I'm not using all I've got. There are times when the situation allows me to find an extra burst of motivation that allows me to catch up, or pass someone.
I'd be interested to see a proponent of the mind over matter concept ride up a cat 1 behind Contador and see if they might argue that Contador is outriding them because he's better physically, or if they flagellate themselves over just being weakwilled.
Certainly it's both. He's got both a physical and a mental edge. Often having one allows you to have the other.
Louis
07-24-2007, 11:09 PM
I have been in that situation plenty of times. I wouldn't necessarily say it's due to weak willpower, it's just that I'm not using all I've got. There are times when the situation allows me to find an extra burst of motivation that allows me to catch up, or pass someone.
I agree. Happens every time I'm climbing a hill and a dog decides to give chase. There's nearly always a little bit more in the tank.
The tough issue is deciding how much to use at any given time, unless I'm nearly home. In my case I have a tough hill leading into my subdivision. I have to keep a bit in reserve then give it my best when I hit the hill.
Louis
Sandy
07-24-2007, 11:10 PM
I think that I am going to try to push myself more than before. Probably not as much as some as I tend to get discouraged and just back off, but I am going to give it a try to push through the pain and discomfort. Certainly not to the degree of some, but just more than I usually do. I am going to try a hilly ride in my area by myself tomorrow and see how I do.
I do believe that the more you push yourself, the easier it is to push yourself at that level the next time.
Pushing the food away,
Somewhat Slimmer Serotta Sandy
Sandy
07-24-2007, 11:17 PM
I agree. Happens every time I'm climbing a hill and a dog decides to give chase. There's nearly always a little bit more in the tank.
The tough issue is deciding how much to use at any given time, unless I'm nearly home. In my case I have a tough hill leading into my subdivision. I have to keep a bit in reserve then give it my best when I hit the hill.
Louis
I was on a group ride last weekend and I was getting a drained and fatigued feeling that I often get cycling, so I was slowing down considerably. I didn't think that I had anything left. A group of much superior cyclists, both female and male, passed my group at a pretty good rate. A very fit female cyclist accelerated quickly to move way up in her group (she was obviously an excellent cyclist). Anyway, a bell went off in my head, and I accelerated and passed her rather easily and fell into line well in front of her. I stayed with the group for a short while, and was then dropped as the incline increased significantly. I was satisfied with my effort and was a little surprised that I even had enough left in the tank to so easily pass (temporarily) the superior cyclist (she was working hard at the time). So, I think that you are right. There is often more left in the tank than you might think.
Looking for jet fuel,
Snail Sandy
Karin Kirk
07-24-2007, 11:47 PM
Mike from AR gave excellent advice, I'll second all of that.
Your question asked for advice from gifted climbers, which I certainly am not. But I'm going to ignore that and answer anyway!
The part about not giving up the gear is spot on. I might add one more bit, which is to not only shift into a harder gear toward the top, but to also stand up over the crest of the climb. This will give you good practice on cresting a climb and may also expand your horizons in terms of technique and tactics.
My rules of thumb for sitting vs standing are to stand in the following circumstances:
-as you crest the hill
-when you get to a short steeper section (this way you can stay in the same gear)
-to stretch and change your position on long climbs, and
-to accelerate, whether it be to get away from a dog, catch up to another attractive cyclist, or whatever reason floats your boat!
If it's a short climb, I tend to climb the whole thing standing. But I'm trying to expand my horizons too, so this year I've been staying seated and powering over short climbs that way. I like the variation, I am sure that mixing it up has helped my riding this year.
As for pulling on the bars, I agree with Mike again. While seated it's just a light grip unless it's very steep, in which case I find myself pulling straight back on both bars equally (not left, then right, but both together with each pedal stroke). While standing, I also try to have a light grip on the hoods so that the bike can sway gently with each stroke. A death grip usually impedes the natural flow and movement of the bike. I save the pulling up with the opposite hand for sprinting, or maybe a sprint-like acceleration on a climb (with the aforementioned dog hot on my heels!)
One last thing about climbing out of the saddle- a common mistake is to have too much weight on your hands and your weight too far forward. This removes weight from the pedals and lowers your efficiency. So again, keep a light, relaxed grip on the bars and think about having the nose of the saddle brush the back of your butt. There shouldn't be too much distance between your butt and the saddle unless it's very steep. This helps you apply your weight to your feet, not your hands, and also helps keep the upper body relaxed.
Hope this is somewhat helpful. Good luck!
3chordwonder
07-25-2007, 02:33 AM
Sorry, still not buying the mind over matter bit.
That a lot of people are not out there riding at 100% I can understand, and that they have room to go faster if they really had to, is obvious.
But there's also a lot of people out there who are seriously pushing themselves to the max when they're out on training rides, and for somebody to then come along and say 'you'd go faster if you were mentally tougher' is kind of insulting, imho. Different strokes for different folks.
Some great climbing advice in other posts here, thanks BTW.
Needs Help
07-25-2007, 12:39 PM
Trying to pull up on the pedals may
actually be reducing your efficiency.
http://www.topbike.com.au/pdfs/colson-bicyc-austjuly_aug2002.pdf
(1) Don't over think it.
(2) Don't tell yourself the hill's bigger than it is.
(3) If you're standing, stand up straight. Too much weight on your hands tires out your arms. Your legs should be tired, not your arms.
(4) If you're seated, keep pedaling.
(5) Do situps or something. You'd be surprised how much you use your gut.
(6) Don't listen to me.
The Word of the Rat
Sandy
07-25-2007, 01:32 PM
[QUOTE=Karin Kirk]Mike from AR gave excellent advice, I'll second all of that.
Your question asked for advice from gifted climbers, which I certainly am not. But I'm going to ignore that and answer anyway!
The part about not giving up the gear is spot on. I might add one more bit, which is to not only shift into a harder gear toward the top, but to also stand up over the crest of the climb. This will give you good practice on cresting a climb and may also expand your horizons in terms of technique and tactics.
My rules of thumb for sitting vs standing are to stand in the following circumstances:
-as you crest the hill
-when you get to a short steeper section (this way you can stay in the same gear)
-to stretch and change your position on long climbs, and
-to accelerate, whether it be to get away from a dog, catch up to another attractive cyclist, or whatever reason floats your boat!
If it's a short climb, I tend to climb the whole thing standing. But I'm trying to expand my horizons too, so this year I've been staying seated and powering over short climbs that way. I like the variation, I am sure that mixing it up has helped my riding this year.
As for pulling on the bars, I agree with Mike again. While seated it's just a light grip unless it's very steep, in which case I find myself pulling straight back on both bars equally (not left, then right, but both together with each pedal stroke). While standing, I also try to have a light grip on the hoods so that the bike can sway gently with each stroke. A death grip usually impedes the natural flow and movement of the bike. I save the pulling up with the opposite hand for sprinting, or maybe a sprint-like acceleration on a climb (with the aforementioned dog hot on my heels!)
One last thing about climbing out of the saddle- a common mistake is to have too much weight on your hands and your weight too far forward. This removes weight from the pedals and lowers your efficiency. So again, keep a light, relaxed grip on the bars and think about having the nose of the saddle brush the back of your butt. There shouldn't be too much distance between your butt and the saddle unless it's very steep. This helps you apply your weight to your feet, not your hands, and also helps keep the upper body relaxed.
Karin,
Excellent, insightful, helpful post! I seldom climb out of the saddle. I think that is not the best way for heavier cyclists. "...having the nose of the saddle brush your butt..." is excellent advice, I think. I have noticed that if I do that, the bike seems as if it is being propelled forward, whereas if I am further forward myself from the saddle, that is not the case. It also appears as if you are further forward you are not engaging the same muscles in the same way. At least that is how I see it.
I am going to try to do what you say in mixing it up some. You give good reasons for that.
Interestingly, I more often stand on the flats if I want to get the bike moving a little quicker with my larger mass. I don't know if that makes any sense or not.
Sandy
http://www.topbike.com.au/pdfs/colson-bicyc-austjuly_aug2002.pdfNegative torque? :confused:
That's a bad thing, right?
P.S. -- I know what she meant but question the entire premise. Aren't hamstrings and hip flexors a large part of running -- and through a large range of motion when at higher speed? Why not on a bike?
72gmc
07-25-2007, 02:17 PM
Sandy, I remember watching Paolo Savoldelli win his first Giro (the year of the Tyler attempt) and being impressed at how long he could climb out of the saddle. He didn't stand only for short accelerations, he settled into an easy swaying motion and stood for a loooooong way. I decided to teach myself to do the same thing, which for me is a mental exercise in regulating my effort on the pedals. It does seem to spread the workload around different muscles. As Karin points out, it's nice to have more than one style.
Sandy
07-25-2007, 02:29 PM
Sandy, I remember watching Paolo Savoldelli win his first Giro (the year of the Tyler attempt) and being impressed at how long he could climb out of the saddle. He didn't stand only for short accelerations, he settled into an easy swaying motion and stood for a loooooong way. I decided to teach myself to do the same thing, which for me is a mental exercise in regulating my effort on the pedals. It does seem to spread the workload around different muscles. As Karin points out, it's nice to have more than one style.
Several years back, I used to do spin classes in the winter (hope to start that gain). I was easily in the top 5%-10% in cadence when seated, but when I pedalled off the saddle, I always had one of the slowest cadence. On the spin cycle, I could stand and pedal for a decent time without too much discomfort (although very slowly), but outside if I am in the process of climbing a long and difficult hill, as soon as I stand and pedal some, my thighs really ache (in fact I just don't do it). I don't know what all of this means, but I am definitely going to try to climb more out of the saddle, or as Karin Kirk says, mix it up a little.
Thanks for your post.
Standing Sandy
Sandy
07-25-2007, 03:22 PM
So if I can really lose some weight, get fit, get a coach (Ti Designs), and learn how to climb, would it be unreasonable for me to think about entering the Tour next year, or am I just a little too old? :rolleyes:
Sandy
Ride with me first. :banana:
Ever lighter ZAP. :banana:
Sandy
07-25-2007, 04:19 PM
Ride with me first. :banana:
Ever lighter ZAP. :banana:
The only way that I would ride with you would be if you were pulling a locomotive behind you. :)
Choo Choo Sandy
PS- Hope that you and Zip are doing very well.
Dekonick
07-25-2007, 04:20 PM
I agree. Happens every time I'm climbing a hill and a dog decides to give chase. There's nearly always a little bit more in the tank.
The tough issue is deciding how much to use at any given time, unless I'm nearly home. In my case I have a tough hill leading into my subdivision. I have to keep a bit in reserve then give it my best when I hit the hill.
Louis
OOPs - sorry about unleashing Truckie a.k.a. Cujo on you... I thought you were Sandy... :D
palincss
07-26-2007, 06:59 AM
The reason I originally questioned if you guys meant riding a fixed bike one-legged is because it doesn't make sense to me. Doesn't it completely defeat the purpose for doing single-legged pedaling drills?
The main advantage of doing single-legged drills as I understand it is that it forces the rider to pull up because if he doesn’t, the freewheel takes over. If you ride a fixed single-legged, the bikes momentum can carry the leg up even if the rider doesn’t pull up at all.
No, it does not. Single-leg drills are a mainstay of spin classes, and spin bikes are all fixed gear.
Too Tall
07-26-2007, 07:19 AM
HOLY CR@P. I am NOT kidding. This morning I was leaving for work and Bambi was riding up my street one legged dragging a truck tyre (it was a Michelin) yelling "Momma's don't let your babies grow up to be cowboys". WFT??? I mean really??? ***???
He's doping, 4 sure.
No, it does not. Single-leg drills are a mainstay of spin classes, and spin bikes are all fixed gear.OK, please tell us what you get from it?
A massive flywheel with lots of momentum and energy carries your leg up whether you want it to go up or not, right?
So what are all those guys actually learning to do while pedaling?
Think about it, at higher speeds can't the flywheels drive the riders as much as the riders the flywheels? How can anyone learn to spin circles, squares or oblongs that way? The pedals go where the cranks take it and at the speed the flywheel takes it, not depending on what the rider is doing. The rider could develop lots of inefficient “negative torque” during parts of the pedal stroke and the flywheel is still going to go forward at essentially the same speed.
Single legged drills were around much before spin bikes at health clubs. That some adapted the drill to health club equipment doesn’t mean much to me – other than as another way to get people to participate (which has its own inherent value).
The same applies to a fixed bike. You can pedal backwards (i.e. -- negative torque) during part of the pedal stroke and not even know it. Do that one-legged on a regular bike with a freewheel and the leg stops.
Sandy
07-26-2007, 08:50 AM
HOLY CR@P. I am NOT kidding. This morning I was leaving for work and Bambi was riding up my street one legged dragging a truck tyre (it was a Michelin) yelling "Momma's don't let your babies grow up to be cowboys". WFT??? I mean really??? ***???
He's doping, 4 sure.
You missed the really impressive part. Yesterday, I was dragging the whole truck. Unfortuntely, today the PEDs were starting to wear off.
:) Super Strong Super Speedy Super Sexy Super Suave Serotta Sandy :)
OK, OK,....Forget the Sexy and Suave part.
darylb
07-26-2007, 10:12 AM
Most/many people break mentally & quit long before their body actually fails.
Len
Bingo. Answers the pain question perfectly. Its not about mind over matter to push you past something that is physiologically impossible. It is pushing past the doubt in your mind that appears when your legs and/or lungs start to hurt.
I am over 200lbs and live in Florida so the few times I have gone to the mountains to ride, I have become intimately familiar with pain.
Sandy
07-26-2007, 10:31 AM
Bingo. Answers the pain question perfectly. Its not about mind over matter to push you past something that is physiologically impossible. It is pushing past the doubt in your mind that appears when your legs and/or lungs start to hurt.
I am over 200lbs and live in Florida so the few times I have gone to the mountains to ride, I have become intimately familiar with pain.
Agreed. I know that can push a great deal more. When it starts to hurt, I just back off- all the time. Maybe I should let it hurt some more. I know that many cyclists psuh more and hurt more. On Friday, I am doing a relatively easy 34 mile group ride. 10 miles and rest. 10 more miles and rest. Finish the ride. I am going to pick one of those three times and push myself much more than normal. It will probably make a big differnce. I will let you know... assuming that I am still alive......
Sandy
Eric E
07-26-2007, 11:45 AM
I had the opportunity to talk with Joe Friel about climbing while riding up some Tour de France stage routes in the Pyrenees a few years ago as part of a cycletourist group. He said that heavier cyclists should stay seated and lighter cyclists should stand more, or even all of the time. As I vaguely remember it, he said you can get an index by dividing your weight in lbs by your height in inches - above 2.5 (?), you are more efficient seated, below 2.2, you are more efficient standing and in between, mix it up.
This makes sense to me, and works with Ti's comment about bigger gearing giving power mid-way through the stroke, because often when I see a really big guy standing, it seems like he is putting so much weight on the pedals that the force is not consumed in the stroke but is grounded out at the base of the stroke, wasted. I probably stand more than my ratio (2.45) suggests is optimal, but I do like stretching different muscles when climbing and am on the lighter side of things...
I also asked him about pulling back on the handlebars while standing, and he confirmed that this was not an efficient way to contribute to power. Personally, I like to use my hands to push just a little sideways, smoothing out the transitions as I sway my bike side-to-side, which allows the least motion of my upper body as i climb the Colorado Mtn roads.
Enjoy, Eric
Sandy
07-26-2007, 11:56 AM
Totally agree. Rapid Tourist is lean. I am not. My climbing out of the saddle is undoubtedly described by you quite well- "...that the force is not consumed in the stroke but is grounded out at the base of the stoke- wasted...." I have seen Rapid Tourist climb out of the saddle and that is not the case. I would think that she might want to climb even more out of the saddle. She makes it look easy.
Sitting Sandy
beungood
07-27-2007, 07:27 PM
Here is another one to add to the list. Breathe.
A little trick I learned when I was a competitive rower...Focus on breathing out forcefully. Your body will automatically breathe back in. Try it right now.
A lot of people focus on breathing in and end up hyperventilating and performance suffers. I've been told I sound like a freight train when I climb.
William
Ive never been able to hear him over my retching and dry heaving..
beungood
07-27-2007, 07:44 PM
One more thing - find a MEAN dog - I mean a MEAN dog and start up the hill... as you pass the dog's house, you will find yourself able to FLY! Watch out for Truckie in the Ellicott City area...he is known to frequent the hills looking for prey...
:
LOL! William utilized this technique with me on one of his loops after a long climb. Just after I said I didn't think I had any gas left in my tank, he mentioned something like I think there is a big shepard somewhere around here.. as I picked a BIG black blur in my pereferral vision...
LesMiner
07-30-2007, 08:09 PM
OK, please tell us what you get from it?
A massive flywheel with lots of momentum and energy carries your leg up whether you want it to go up or not, right?
So what are all those guys actually learning to do while pedaling?
Think about it, at higher speeds can't the flywheels drive the riders as much as the riders the flywheels? How can anyone learn to spin circles, squares or oblongs that way? The pedals go where the cranks take it and at the speed the flywheel takes it, not depending on what the rider is doing. The rider could develop lots of inefficient “negative torque” during parts of the pedal stroke and the flywheel is still going to go forward at essentially the same speed.
Single legged drills were around much before spin bikes at health clubs. That some adapted the drill to health club equipment doesn’t mean much to me – other than as another way to get people to participate (which has its own inherent value).
The same applies to a fixed bike. You can pedal backwards (i.e. -- negative torque) during part of the pedal stroke and not even know it. Do that one-legged on a regular bike with a freewheel and the leg stops.
No the flywheel on a spin bike does not carry your foot around when single pedaling. Typically the resistance, more like a brake, will stop the flywheel if you stop pedaling. Single pedaling still requires pulling up on the back side. Otherwise the flywheel will stop. The resistance is adjustable so it is possible to tighten down to where you can not move the pedals at all!
No the flywheel on a spin bike does not carry your foot around when single pedaling. Typically the resistance, more like a brake, will stop the flywheel if you stop pedaling. Single pedaling still requires pulling up on the back side. Otherwise the flywheel will stop. The resistance is adjustable so it is possible to tighten down to where you can not move the pedals at all!I don't know what type of spin bike you are referring to, but no decent exercise bike with a flywheel I've ever been on would do what you describe -- it was not physically possible on any bike I've ever used.
If the rider is spinning something like in the order of 80 RPM or so, the flywheel will be traveling something like two or maybe three times that fast, which has enough momentum and kinetic energy to keep moving many degrees of crank rotation before it stops even against the brake.
If the load on the brake was so tight that it could stop the flywheel from 200 to 0 RPM in less than one revolution, the rider would not be able to pedal and maintain it going on a steady state.
It is exactly the same as on a fixed bike. If you get going 20 MPH and stop pedaling -- even if intentional -- it is impossible to come to a stop in 90 degrees of crank rotation. There is simply too much momentum and kinetic energy to stop that suddenly. Hence my point that if the rider stops pedaling smoothly (i.e. -- in "circles") the bike's momentum will carry the riders leg up on the upstroke whether he wants it or not. The rider doesn’t have to learn to pull up at all.
The only way I can see what you are saying to work is if the one-legged drill involves spinning at an incredibly slow cadence -- and I seriously doubt anyone would do one-legged drills at less than 10 RPM.
LesMiner
07-30-2007, 09:49 PM
This has been a great thread. It does inspire applying some of the techniques and concepts for better climbing. I tried to put some them to work last Saturday. I went on a century ride that included the fabled Twin Sisters hills. To do a 100 miles you did 2 loops which meant climbing the Twin Sisters twice. Once into the ride, someone asked what gears I was running. I answered "I have a 53/39 with a 23/11 cassette." He responded with "Oh boy! You are not going to make it, I have a 50/34 with a 12/25 cassette!" He contiunes with "no way will you the mash the pedals enough to climb both Twin Sisters." I did have a sinking feeling since I have another really lightweight wheelset that happens to have a 29/13 cassette. I could have changed wheels but never thought of it. Oh well, I was committed and I was going to do it. I started the first in the big chain ring at about 21 mph. I downshifted the rear down one. I watched my cadence go down and speed 15-16 mph as my effort went up. Breathing was not overly labored yet. I shifted to the small chain ring. My speed has dropped to 14-15 mph. I watched my cadence ready to shift when I can not maintain 75 rpm. For the rest of the climb my cadence was between 75 and 80 rpm. I was going about 10 mph for the top quarter of the climb. I made the crest at about 9 mph. I made it!
Shifting and cadence was not a problem. I remained seated for the entire climb. Breathing was the most difficult. It found it almost impossible to keep from going into short quick panting breaths. Keeping the breathing relaxed focusing on breathing out was very difficult. I did keep the pedaling like scraping mud off my shoe. The next 3 climbs were about the same. There was fatique and pain but not so that I couldn't make it.
In the spirt of "For every hill you climb there is a hill to go down", I took advantage of the downhill after the second sister. It goes down then a flat section followed by another downhill down to a small lake. It was not overly steep. I positioned into the drops. Shifted up higher and higher as my speed went up. Same pedaling technique as climbing. My cadance was 100+ rpm. My last check on cadence was 110 rpm. I topped 40 mph and in 53 - 11 gear.
Epilog, on the last loop the guy with the compact gearing, the one that said that I would not make it, passed me. Then a second guy passes me while the first is about 2/3 up the climb. This guy is on a beat up Trek hybird wearing a tee shirt. He did have clipless pedals. He is standing and pedaling like he is running up stairs. He passes the first guy at the top. I see him next climbing the second sister still standing going just as fast. The other guy does not appear until the guy on the Trek is over half way up. He is long gone before before the other one makes it to the top. So do not judge a rider's capability until you see him ride.
So does anyone know a good trainer for climbing in the Twin Cites area of Minnesota?
LesMiner
07-30-2007, 09:59 PM
I don't know what type of spin bike you are referring to, but no decent exercise bike with a flywheel I've ever been on would do what you describe -- it was not physically possible on any bike I've ever used.
If the rider is spinning something like in the order of 80 RPM or so, the flywheel will be traveling something like two or maybe three times that fast, which has enough momentum and kinetic energy to keep moving many degrees of crank rotation before it stops even against the brake.
If the load on the brake was so tight that it could stop the flywheel from 200 to 0 RPM in less than one revolution, the rider would not be able to pedal and maintain it going on a steady state.
It is exactly the same as on a fixed bike. If you get going 20 MPH and stop pedaling -- even if intentional -- it is impossible to come to a stop in 90 degrees of crank rotation. There is simply too much momentum and kinetic energy to stop that suddenly. Hence my point that if the rider stops pedaling smoothly (i.e. -- in "circles") the bike's momentum will carry the riders leg up on the upstroke whether he wants it or not. The rider doesn’t have to learn to pull up at all.
The only way I can see what you are saying to work is if the one-legged drill involves spinning at an incredibly slow cadence -- and I seriously doubt anyone would do one-legged drills at less than 10 RPM.
Like I said it depends on the resistance unlike a fixed gear bike. The flywheel on a spin cycle is about 40 lbs far less than person on a fixed bike. To change the effort required you tighten the resistance. Stop pedaling and it slows down more quickly than a fixed bike. To make it the same you would need to apply a brake to the fixed bike. I have done this in a spin cycle class many times. If the resistance is low then the flywheel will take over.
Karin Kirk
07-31-2007, 12:01 AM
Nice ride report Les! Way to climb, baby :)
Sandy
07-31-2007, 05:01 AM
Say Karin- I went on a ride with Smiley on Sunday. I am now 208, have improved my pedal stroke some, and was more determined to simply keep turning over the cranks and not giving up. We climbed up a particular hill at which I am normally dropped big time. I wasn't this time and Smiley complimented me on my improvement, which I really appreciated. There may be hope for me yet.
Thanks for your genuine kindness and help.
Sandy
Karin Kirk
07-31-2007, 10:10 AM
Wow! That is terrific news Sandy! I have been thinking about you and wondering how your climbing was going. I'm so pleased to hear your good report. I hope you are justly proud of your recent accomplishments! ('Cause we all are!)
Keep up the great work!
-Karin
nobody has mentioned the one technique that I've noted again and again for seated climbing...butt back on the saddle as far back as possible, torso dropped down a bit, hands light on the bars...this position changes the way the pedal stroke works, and permits the rider to "push" smoothly through the top of the stroke. A lowered torso means that the big butt muscles kick in nicely. Watch some of the seated big gear climbers who pedal at a slightly slower cadence, and you'll see what I mean...try it, you might like it...
thwart
07-31-2007, 09:19 PM
Yep, that's why I like those Arione's... slide to the back of the saddle and go, go, go.
Works well for me, some of that mixed up with some swaying out of the saddle work. :)
Sandy
08-01-2007, 12:05 AM
nobody has mentioned the one technique that I've noted again and again for seated climbing...butt back on the saddle as far back as possible, torso dropped down a bit, hands light on the bars...this position changes the way the pedal stroke works, and permits the rider to "push" smoothly through the top of the stroke. A lowered torso means that the big butt muscles kick in nicely. Watch some of the seated big gear climbers who pedal at a slightly slower cadence, and you'll see what I mean...try it, you might like it...
Excellent post. I often find myself sliding bck on tghe sddle if I want to produce power ( the tiny bit that I have). It just happens without me thinking about it. Often if I want to chse someone, I slide back in the saddle and hunker down a little (whatever that means for a basically inflexible older cyclist). I think sometimes whed climbing that I might want to move further back. It gives me a feelin that I generate more power and even come up and over the top of the pedal stroke. Just a feeling. I am going to try to do what you say.
Thanks for the insight.
Sandy
vBulletin® v3.8.7, Copyright ©2000-2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.