Mountain bike equipment questions...

[tbushnel]

I was looking to pick up a used Mt bike and was looking for thoughts about what to look for in terms of the frame and components (probably will piece together). I want something for singletrack riding. Not looking to race.
I am thinking probably want a hardtail - not planning any really rough downhill or anything. Disc brakes vs. canti vs ? - without lots of downhill I would think disc would be overkill.
Any thoughts or suggestions on how to go with a first Mt bike setup are appreciated.
Cheers,
Ted.

[gdw]

Three questions: How much do you want to spend? Are you planning to ride often, several times a week, or occasionally, once or twice a month? Will you be riding in wet conditions?

[tbushnel]

to answer your questions,
1) around $1200 or less (complete bike) - assuming probably used stuff
2) Once a week, but maybe more often if it really "floats my boat"
3) definitely wet conditions
Thanks,
ted

[Bart001]

It was hard for me to find a 'decent, used' FS mtn bike. The hardtails I saw along the way weren't much different. Most stuff on the used market (Craig's List) was beat to hell and/or so old that I wasn't interested. I ended up buying new.

I wasn't interested in Ebay, as a mtn bike frame that you cant inspect in person is a crapshoot.

[markie]

Depending on how strong you are and how difficuly tour terrain is, you could always consider a SS. If you are tall a rigid 29er. There are several nice new bikes in the $1000-$1500 price point. Names like Haro, Fisher, Redline, Raleigh and Kona are woth a look.

I personally never had any love for suspension, but then I learnt to ride before Rock Shox ruled the earth.

Wet conditions on a geared suspension bike generally results in plenty of maintenance.......

[Kirk Pacenti]

tbushnel et al-

I have a brand new FS XC machine for sale... pretty cheap.



TB, Check your email. :)

[Ginger]

You know...

If I were just starting out in mountain biking in Washington, I probably wouldn't go with a singlespeed for my first bike.

Pay attention to the correct bike for your area...someone's big ole desert ride isn't necessarily the happiest bike in the trees, etc etc.

http://www.sellwoodcycle.com/consignment.htm

If you're looking at brands, take a look at Rocky Mountain too...

[gdw]

You probably should start off with a geared hardtail with disk brakes since you live in an area with frequent rainfall. Check out Craigslist and the local bikeshop bulletin boards to get a feel for pricing and to see what's available. In Colorado you can usually find a quality used XT/XTR equiped model for under $1,000 and an LX/XT version for around $500-800. It's difficult to find a full suspension bike for under $1200 and most of the ones I've looked at are pretty beat.

[tbushnel]

Appreciate the feedback. This will help me figure out what I am looking for.

And I am sad that I am too short to take advantage of a deal from Mr Pacenti. Oh well.

Question for Ginger: is it harder to ride a single speed Mt bike compared to geared? explain :)

ted.

[toaster]

I certainly recommend a hardtail with disc brakes. I like UST tubless tires and wheelset for the lower pressures and the suspension effect you get from softer tires.

Stay with gears since singlespeed is quite limiting. You won't get to push big gears and high speeds on a singlespeed but you do get a workout spinning or climbing in a single gear that generally too big for a hill.

29'ers are neat if you are a big rider. They are best if the rider is 5'-10" or taller, IMHO. Otherwise, there can be issues of tire clearance on small 29'er frames. You probably would still would like how a 26" bike handles if you like tight or technical riding.

I'm sure you could do this for $1200.

[BURCH]

Go with Disc brakes. They are almost standard now anyways on new bikes. I think that you could find a descent bike for that much money. Also remember that things break a lot on the mtn bikes so you can save money by getting a lower end component kit and upgrading when things break...and they will.

I ride a full suspension XC style mountain bike. It is built for speed and quick climbing. Bought it while in Connecticut and even though I had no interest in downhill riding, CT demands a full suspension bike because you can't go very far in the Northeast without facing some techical rock formation. Plus the guys I rode with loved rocks. I would recommend looking for a full suspension if...
1) You think that you would enjoy going out for about a ride over 2 hours at a time. Full suspension will keep you on the bike longer.
2) You have any type of "pains". Back, knee, shoulder..etc. A hard tail will beat you up. Especially if you have pre-existing problems.
3) You think that you might enjoy plowing or picking your way thru a rock garden. This can be done a hardtail, but takes a while to master.

Go hardtail if...
1)You want to save some cash
2) Only expect to ride here and there for about an hour or less.
3) Would avoid rocky,rooty sections or they don't really exist in the NW?

Enjoy. It has to be beautiful riding up where you are...

[Ken Robb]

I'm not a very proficient mtn. biker and I'm old. I have watched in amazement at how some very skilled cross and mtn. bike riders have ridden and raced on with no or front-only suspension on trails that I know well. I have slowly picked my way through some of these trails on my road and cross bikes but

I can go much faster/safer on my FS Marin Rift Zone. It's night/day for someone like me w/limited skills and the difference in comfort is huge.

My suggestion is to go FS now. If you get really good borrow a hard tail and see if it has any advantages for you as an experienced rider. I fear if you go hard tail first you will quickly envy your fellow riders on FS bikes and want one too.

[chuckred]

Full suspension - 4 inches of travel front and back, disk brakes, derailleurs.

Why limit your options? Designs are so good and prices so reasonable now, it's just (in my about to get totally flamed) opinion that it's only reverse snobism to go with anything less! Unless of course you have a very specific reason...

And, before the flame throwers come out, yes, I learned to ride before suspension (stingray/varsity days), and held out on suspension fork until '95, rode a hard tail all last winter in CA, etc. But, for pure fun and enjoyment, full suspension got me hooked!

But, what do I know...

[sevencyclist]

I currently ride a Seven hardtail with rim brake. I would suggest going with disc brakes since this seems to be the standard now. Nothing wrong with the rim brakes, but the forks that take rim brakes are getting less and less.

As for FS vs hardtail, since you are not racing, then both will be fine. Hardtails are lighter and favors non-technical climbing, FS favors bombing downhills. I think the fun comes from conquering the trail rather than faster is better, so both are fine if you are not racing.

One recurrent problem with my MTB is chain suck, so I have looked into designs with elevated chainstays. The 2 FS bikes with elevated chainstays within your price range are Santa Cruz Superlight RXC and Cannondale Rush 4. Give those a try.

[Ginger]

Full suspension - 4 inches of travel front and back, disk brakes, derailleurs.

Why limit your options? Designs are so good and prices so reasonable now, it's just (in my about to get totally flamed) opinion that it's only reverse snobism to go with anything less! Unless of course you have a very specific reason...

And, before the flame throwers come out, yes, I learned to ride before suspension (stingray/varsity days), and held out on suspension fork until '95, rode a hard tail all last winter in CA, etc. But, for pure fun and enjoyment, full suspension got me hooked!

But, what do I know...

Nope, you're right. For first timers who just want to have fun and see if they like it, full suspension is the way to go, it flattens that technical learning curve right out.

But it does flatten the technical learning curve out, so they ride things that they probably shouldn't...but they survive, so it's good.

Of course, then they move to a hardtail to save weight and have to relearn how to ride a bike on the trail. You sit more on a FS and stand a bit more and have to learn to pick better lines on the HT. Something to consider.

And forgive me, I only rode a full rigid for a couple years...a front suspension fork was the coolest addition EVER. I've only ridden a single speed when I lost a der or broke a chain on the trail...I'd really like to like single speeding, but I just can't.

[BURCH]

The 2 FS bikes with elevated chainstays within your price range are Santa Cruz Superlight RXC and Cannondale Rush 4. Give those a try.

Love the Santa Cruz SL. Borrowed one once. Another buddy had a blur that he loved also.

[gdw]

Most full suspension designs work really well but that performance comes with a hefty price tag and $1200 isn't going to go too far. Inexpensive used models are often really beat up or stolen. The cheaper new models are very heavy, the least expensive Santa Cruz Superlight weighs 30+ pounds, and use low end components. Cheap forks, shocks, wheels, and disk brakes can be high maintenance as well. It would be better to buy a quality used hardtail now and start exploring. Check out the local trails and see what style of riding appeals to you. Develope the basic skills and then decide whether a full suspension is the right bike for you. If you want to try fs, used bike prices are much lower in the off season and the local shops and internet venders always have some killer deals on new bikes left over from last year.

[Archibald]

Dual suspension is for soft little nancy boys. This is a man's bike:

[vandeda]

Go hardtail if...
1)You want to save some cash
2) Only expect to ride here and there for about an hour or less.
3) Would avoid rocky,rooty sections or they don't really exist in the NW?

.

I think this largely depends on the rider. I love my hardtail, and have done weekend long mtn bike trips that includes riding Friday night, Saturday morning, Saturday afternoon, Sunday afternoon ... each ride 2-4 hours long. Technical rocky, rooty and bouldery are the best trails imho.

I've ridden hardtails since I started mtn biking about 6 years ago. I got to try out a Gary Fisher 3" travel full suspension 29r about a month ago. I loved the 29" rims (and no problems with clearance even though I'm 5'3" and ride ~15" frame), but I hated the full suspension. My favorite trails are the really rocky trails that you have to pick your way through with finesse .. trails that even a lot of my full suspension buddies don't enjoy because they're too technical and slow for them.

The thing I hated about the full suspension was it soaked up *everything* it seemed, and this bike only had 3" travel front and rear. It practically felt like riding a dirt path, which sucked because I might as well ride a dirt bike path. It took too much of the feel and technical challenge out of it for me. It was as if I were driving a Lincoln Town Car (that handled well), when I'd rather be driving a Caterham Super-7; I want to feel the road, not be isolated from it. Basically, it felt like I had bolted a Lazy Boy to my seatpost on my hardtail ... zzzzzzzzzz.

So my recommendation ... try both. FS will definitely allow you to do more because you don't need as much skill as the rear suspension soaks up a *lot* ... even something as short as 3". But hardtail is just more involved and requires that you learn more skills, making it way more fun imho, and also has nothing to do with reverse snobism either imho. 29" rims are great, my next mtn bike will definitely have them.

[Ginger]

I'm 5'6" and not tall enough for a 29'r.

Of course, since I'm shorter, 26" wheels roll nicely.


You know what you need to do? You need to go out and find yourself a classic.

A used Fat Chance Yo Eddy.

Make sure it's suspension corrected.

You'll have a blast.

Well in your price range even fully built.

Steel hardtail. Not necessarily the prettiest welds, depending on where it was built (My Serotta Fat had nice welds) but a very nice bike.

Ebay is your friend (or that guy in the classifieds in eastern CT who's selling a collection on Craigslist...he has a couple chances on the block.)

[markie]

"Ebay is your friend "


While I find this generally true. It might not be such good advice to a new MTB'er who is not really sure what they want or what they are looking for and what will fit well.

Same with the fat chance idea. They look like mid 90's race bikes. Small headtubes and big saddle to bar drops. Not new MTB'er friendly.

(Sorry I wanted to poo-poo your ideas as glibly as you dimissed SS :p )

Making some local friends and trying to borrow a bike or even renting something might be a good idea, before spending all your cash.

[vandeda]

Demo rides are great too. Specialized and Gary Fisher/Trek had demos up here in Saratoga Springs not too long ago. That's what sold me on a Fisher 29r hardtail for next year and finally gave me a good feel for a full suspension & 29" rims on trails I've ridden. It was great being able to try a little of everything, and I can be confident when I buy next year that it'll be something that I know rode well on the stuff I like.

So ... if you can find demo rides somewhere, that'd definitely be your best bet.

[Ginger]

Same with the fat chance idea. They look like mid 90's race bikes. Small headtubes and big saddle to bar drops. Not new MTB'er friendly.

(Sorry I wanted to poo-poo your ideas as glibly as you dimissed SS :p )

Making some local friends and trying to borrow a bike.

And there's something wrong with mid-90's race bikes? "Looks Like"
I thought the same thing until I rode one. My Fat chance was too long in the tt for me, (I don't fit normal boy bikes) but boy...it handled really well in the trees and the roots.

You can either work your way up to a bike like that, or you can just learn to ride it to begin with. It really isn't going to teach you any bad habits, and you'll learn how not to endo fairly quickly.

I didn't glibly dismiss SS. I don't like to be stuck in one gear on the trail. So I really can't tell someone else that it's a great option.

I like the "crash other people's bikes" idea too... :banana: But there's something to this. Go see what the locals ride. See what their first bike was. There probably are a few out there you can borrow to "see if you like it"

Nope, you're right. Going to as many demos as possible and even renting the bike you're thinking of and test riding it for a day or two really is the only way to be sure. However, if I were just getting into the sport and just wanted to putz around I'd intend to buy two bikes. Spend no more than $600 on a Specialized, Giant, or Jamis or Rocky Mountain hardtail and beat the heck out of it, break parts and figure out:

What sort of trails give me a thrill

If I'm going to ride more than once a week

What sort of trails those once a week trails are going to be.

What sort of component level I'm comfortable breaking

and then move on to another bike that suits what I want to do.

Because really, if you don't ride trails, you don't know what you like yet. The first bike is going to be lacking somehow and you won't know what it is until you come upon it.
You think you know...but who knows...he might find that he really likes that northshore stuff and wind up on some wicked fs monster with flat pedals...or he might be one of those sick people who really love sand.
You just never know until you get out on the trail and do some of that. After 11 years of riding with the 4 previous years on FS bikes I never would have thought I'd enjoy the Yo, or enjoy going back to a hardtail...but it was a blast.

[BURCH]

I think this largely depends on the rider. I love my hardtail, and have done weekend long mtn bike trips that includes riding Friday night, Saturday morning, Saturday afternoon, Sunday afternoon ... each ride 2-4 hours long. Technical rocky, rooty and bouldery are the best trails imho.


So my recommendation ... try both.


I definately agree with you. It all comes down to opinion and you really do need to try both. My opinions were purely personal choice. I started on a hardtail for 8 years. Then I got my first FS, a Trek Fuel, 4 years ago. The Fuel has minimal travel, but I was just getting too beat up over the years with the hardtail. I guess I am not as much of a finesse rider as I would like. I sorta see a flat section with a rock garden and try to speed my way thru it. This tactic would be even more ideal on a bigger travel bike, but I don't want to give up the speed that I get from my fuel on climbs.

[tbushnel]

for all the thoughtful responses. I have some food for thought, which is what I was hoping for. I think getting a relatively inexpensive bike to start and beating it up in the process of finding out what kind of riding I like most makes the most sense to me. Maybe some demo rides first. Kinda what I did in road riding as well and I am happy what I have now.
Cheers,
TEd.

[vandeda]

for all the thoughtful responses. I have some food for thought, which is what I was hoping for. I think getting a relatively inexpensive bike to start and beating it up in the process of finding out what kind of riding I like most makes the most sense to me. Maybe some demo rides first. Kinda what I did in road riding as well and I am happy what I have now.
Cheers,
TEd.

Ted,

Getting an inexpensive bike the first time and beating the snot out of it really is a great route. That's what I did. My Schwinn Moab 2 was like $880 when new 6 yrs ago or so and had the best components by far in its price range. I started out on smoother trails and slowly learned what I liked, which turned out to be the more technical. After bashing my frame and large chain ring on many rocks/logs, I replaced the large chain ring with a bash guard because I got tired of hammering my chain ring flat(ish) after every other ride.

I finally got to try FS after having ridden my Moab numerous yrs and learning exactly what I liked. The best part was, the Fisher FS had a rear whock witha great lockout, so I got to get a feel for it as FS and as a hardtail. The things I learned were I very much like my Moab (other than the constantly clunking internal headset), I much prefer the hardtail, I very much liked the 29" rims, I liked the Fisher geometry, and I still don't like disc brakes. So next year when I finally get a new bike after all these years, I know exactly what I want (29r Fisher hardtail ... unfortunately I think I have no choice on the brakes :-( ) and will spend more $$$ this time around.

Personally I would get a less expensive Fisher imho, afterall their only business is mtn bikes. Reminds me of my buddy who really got me into biking. He rides only the best, so he had the Record equipped Legend Ti (there was no Ottrott at the time) and full XTR toof line Fisher. He finally built up his dream custom bike (Ibis Ti .... maybe, I forget really) ... and hated the geometry. He sold it and went back to his much cheaper Fisher. One of the best guys I know to ride with, humble, fast and the best technical skill of anyone I know ... he'll smoke guys up really techincal sections on his full rigid and them on their FS bikes (and they're good riders too, some fairly successful in the NE racing scene if I remember right). Oh .... sorry I'm completely babbling at this point.

Ted, I hope you love mtn biking, its a ton of fun that can offer you great challenges and some awesome scenery. And frankly, inexpensive these days buys you excellent bikes .... looking at bikes just 6 yrs after my first new mtn bike, I'm amazed at what you get! Find guys who are better than you, but humble and patient, and be patient with yourself!

[beungood]

I am in the Northeast near Boston and was thinking MTbing would be a good switch as it get's colder here and would be a good change from the road. I have been thinking about mountain bikes and while at work in front of a cemetery met a MTb'r who is on the trail watch. He said he likes both 26 and 29 for different reasons. He rides Gary Fisher and deals with a good LBS. I rode a Gary Fisher Hifi and liked it but seemed alot of effort to keep going . I am now interested in the GF Hifi 29 it seams like a good compromise. I cant envision going off 8 foot drops but could see going over logs and small drops,single track and maybe some sandy trails down in the cape.

[gdw]

Gary Fisher full suspension bikes should be avoided for at least the first two years of production. Read this thread.
http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=281933

[norman neville]

*** does twelve hundred bucks buy you new in a bikeshop from, say, kona, for a hardtail with suspension fork, especially this end of season time of year? i have no idea, but it is probably pretty frigging good, disc brakes, decent frame and fork, nice frame design.

rather than buy some pos used bike, get a new bike, pretty nice, kill it and then get something better.

dude.

[samtaylor1]

The ferrous by garry fisher is the best hardtail mountain bike for the money. It is a steal, good mechanical disk breaks (you will want to upgrade in a few years to hydrolics). It is a bit more then 1200, but I bet you could get it for about 1600

http://www.fisherbikes.com/bike/model/ferrous-29

[norman neville]

*** does twelve hundred bucks buy you new in a bikeshop from, say, kona, for a hardtail with suspension fork, especially this end of season time of year? i have no idea, but it is probably pretty frigging good, disc brakes, decent frame and fork, nice frame design.

rather than buy some pos used bike, get a new bike, pretty nice, kill it and then get something better.

dude.

kona kula 2008: $1200;

kona four 2008 (full suspension): $1200;

kona caldera 2008: $950.

there you go. any of these new bikes'd be better for you than some used fat chance or other turd that might not fit, might be thrashed or might have sucky parts on it. if you're new, how the hell would you know?

konas are cooler than treks (fishers). gary fisher is a tool; he ripped off his genitals geometry from jay dejesus and a bunch of other small builders who had been doing the short-chainstay-long-toptube-short-stem thing for years. konas are fine. find a decent shop, get a kona or other decent bike, have a blast. in a few years you can overbuy on some huge monster suspension bike or inane scandium/carbon custom frame.

[norman neville]

kona kula 2008: $1200;

kona four 2008 (full suspension): $1200;

kona caldera 2008: $950.

there you go. any of these new bikes'd be better for you than some used fat chance or other turd that might not fit, might be thrashed or might have sucky parts on it. if you're new, how the hell would you know?

konas are cooler than treks (fishers). gary fisher is a tool; he ripped off his genitals geometry from jay dejesus and a bunch of other small builders who had been doing the short-chainstay-long-toptube-short-stem thing for years. konas are fine. find a decent shop, get a kona or other decent bike, have a blast. in a few years you can overbuy on some huge monster suspension bike or inane scandium/carbon custom frame.

kona five-0 2008: $1200; big hit hardtail trail bike with 140mm fork. really ugly brown and white paint, too. sweet.

twelve hundred gets you the goods to get going.

[norman neville]

kona five-0 2008: $1200; big hit hardtail trail bike with 140mm fork. really ugly brown and white paint, too. sweet.

twelve hundred gets you the goods to get going.

from what i saw tooling around their site, kona has an extremely decent looking basic aluminum road bike for 1200 bucks, too. i don't know how it compares to a $1200 cannondale, the ubiquitous aluminum road bike standard, but it looks okay for what it is.

after these endorsements, i now expect to get a crisp new five dollar bill e-mailed to me from the folks at kona.

[PaMtbRider]

For $1200 I would stick with a hardtail. The weight and quality of a full suspension bike at that price is going to suck. If you are going to ride in wet weather at all disc brakes are a must. The Avid BB7 cable actuated brake is a great disc brake and would be found on bikes in your price range. Hydraulic brakes will offer more power and modulation but are probably not necessary at the speeds you will be going.

[davids]

For $1200 I would stick with a hardtail. The weight and quality of a full suspension bike at that price is going to suck. If you are going to ride in wet weather at all disc brakes are a must. The Avid BB7 cable actuated brake is a great disc brake and would be found on bikes in your price range. Hydraulic brakes will offer more power and modulation but are probably not necessary at the speeds you will be going.
I'm going to disagree.

As a beginning mountain biker, I found that a FS bike performed much better than a comparable HT. I bought my Klein Adept for $1,500 6 years ago. I'm betting that $1,200 would buy a better bike today.

FWIW, that Kona Kikapu Deluxe (listing for $1,400) looks like a nice bike...

p.s. I've probably put another $1,500 into the bike over the years - The only original parts now are the frame, handlebar, and front derailleur. But that supports my point - You can get a good, reliable "skeleton" for short-ish money, and upgrade from there.

[benb]

The thing is you want to ride a FS bike with the skill set of someone who learned on a HT or rigid bike...

The FS will let you pound over rocks.. but the good rider on the FS bike will still ride around the rocks when appropriate.

However FS is definitely higher maintenance, the company making the frame needs to do a much better job (easy for frames to be too whippy), and you're looking at a much better chance of damaging the bike.

Seals, etc.. have gotten WAY better. Nothing is horrible on maintenance. But the HT or even Rigid is worth it for the learning curve.

From what little I've seen your area is rocky/rooty like the Northeast.. so eventually you're going to be on a 4-6" travel FS bike if you really enjoy trail riding.

[Dave B]

I am not a big fan of the company, but Specialized FSR bikes are pretty decent. There are a million of them for sale on ebay and other places. I bet $1200 could get you into a decent model. Also I bet a Giant NRS or cheaper model Trance could be had. Both are nice, the trance being more of a trail bike and the NRS was their racing bike.

Had both. The NRS was cool. There is even some fella on ebay who sells rocker links for this bike. allows you to adjust from 3.5 to 4.5 inches.


My best piece of advice for blindly getting into a full susser, learn lots about what catches your eye. Learn as much as you can. HT bikes are much more simple...and sometimes better.

The Santa Cruz Blur is a fantastic bike. It might be worth trying to increase your budget a bit, but it would be worth it.
More often then not people love those bikes.

[Dave B]

[QUOTE=benb]The thing is you want to ride a FS bike with the skill set of someone who learned on a HT or rigid bike...

The FS will let you pound over rocks.. but the good rider on the FS bike will still
Seals, etc.. have gotten WAY better. Nothing is horrible on maintenance. But the HT or even Rigid is worth it for the learning curve.

[QUOTE]


Good info, however if you ride a HT and do not like mtb-ing because it isn't as "cushy" as you wish it was that could be a deterrant. Not that you are wrong, but Full sussers allow people to make mistakes without punishing them. This often leads to continuing to ride instead of giving it up.

[benb]

I would never have really thought of that as a reason to give up MTBing..

I'd have said annoyance at destroying parts, bikes getting covered in mud, etc..

BTW if you look at used NRSes try to get one of the later model years.. I have one of the earlier ones.. it's almost impossible to get all the gear combinations to run smoothly, and it cannot hold up under a sprint in the top gear combinations. (Bends like crazy causing rubbing and maybe a chain skip)

Also with Shimano mine ghost shifted in the rear like crazy due to suspension action... I tried a lot of stuff before eventually switching to SRAM which solved the problem due to it needing greater cable travel to shift.

Giant solved both the problems in the later ones by changing the swingarm design.

[bnewt07]

The Santa Cruz Blur is a fantastic bike. It might be worth trying to increase your budget a bit, but it would be worth it.
More often then not people love those bikes.

I was an MTB'er first and have come to roadbiking later-when the crashes started hurting more. I still do 1000+ miles a year off road, almost all in winter.

Reading the OP I'd still say you can have a great deal of fun on an HT, a lot depends on the terrain you ride, and partly the weather. if you are riding tracks and fireroads mostly then FS is, in my opinion, a waste-not just of money but complexity. Decent FS can now be boght at reasonable levels but you still pay a cost in terms of weight, and usually finishing kit. I'd rather ride an HT with a good front fork than FS bike with a mediocre one. If the terrain gets really lumpy then get FS by all means-but think what travel you really need. Big travel bikes weigh more and the geo is often set up to make climbing a misery!

My priorities in getting you into MTB'ing would be-a well fitted HT frame, decent fork and definitely discs if you ride much in the wet. Buy a well suited set of tyres for the terrain you ride-they choice is wide and hugely affects riding fun.

Finally, re the SC Blur. I've a weight weenie Sant Cruz Blur XC, and a fine and lovely thing it is but if (or rather when) I finally dent a really important bit of tube I'l probablty replace it with an SC Superlight. A classic simple single pivot FS bike that works so sweetly with a good platform damped shock.

Enjoy getting itno MTB'ing. Get the advice of local riders who enjoy your area's trails too-and more importantly a local shop.

[vandeda]

The thing is you want to ride a FS bike with the skill set of someone who learned on a HT or rigid bike...

The FS will let you pound over rocks.. but the good rider on the FS bike will still ride around the rocks when appropriate.


From what little I've seen your area is rocky/rooty like the Northeast.. so eventually you're going to be on a 4-6" travel FS bike if you really enjoy trail riding.

Wait ... You're supposed to go around the rocks & such? Hmmm ... I usually aim for them which is part of the challenge.

And I guess I don't get that one will be on a 4-6" travel bike to really enjoy northeast like rocky/rooty trails ... I guess if your goal is to smooth the trails out as if you're riding on a dirt path ... Ok, but then why not ride on a dirt path? Again I'll contend to anyone getting into mtn biking, try both.

Our trails in upstate ny are those typical rocky/rooty northeast trails. My closest biking buds are all hardtail guys because we like the challenge instead of the bike just soaking up the bumps ... We like the feel as opposed to the numbness of FS ... Kind of like a comparison between a good feeling steel road bike and a dead wood carbon bike.

And as you can see above, you can get some pretty good hardtails for fairly low prices (though, a local bike shop is closing out some nicely equipped Santa Cruz Superlights for $1500) with less maintenance hassle, and possibly more fun too depending what you're after (smooth everything out or more feel & challenge).

I've heard great things on the new Gensis 2 Gary Fisher 29r's. Personally I only seen raves from people who've tried them.

[davids]

I was an MTB'er first and have come to roadbiking later-when the crashes started hurting more. I still do 1000+ miles a year off road, almost all in winter.

Reading the OP I'd still say you can have a great deal of fun on an HT, a lot depends on the terrain you ride, and partly the weather. if you are riding tracks and fireroads mostly then FS is, in my opinion, a waste-not just of money but complexity. Decent FS can now be boght at reasonable levels but you still pay a cost in terms of weight, and usually finishing kit. I'd rather ride an HT with a good front fork than FS bike with a mediocre one. If the terrain gets really lumpy then get FS by all means-but think what travel you really need. Big travel bikes weigh more and the geo is often set up to make climbing a misery!

My priorities in getting you into MTB'ing would be-a well fitted HT frame, decent fork and definitely discs if you ride much in the wet. Buy a well suited set of tyres for the terrain you ride-they choice is wide and hugely affects riding fun.

Finally, re the SC Blur. I've a weight weenie Sant Cruz Blur XC, and a fine and lovely thing it is but if (or rather when) I finally dent a really important bit of tube I'l probablty replace it with an SC Superlight. A classic simple single pivot FS bike that works so sweetly with a good platform damped shock.

Enjoy getting itno MTB'ing. Get the advice of local riders who enjoy your area's trails too-and more importantly a local shop.
Speaking of the Superlight: $1,700 (http://www.coloradocyclist.com/product/item/SNAAKSFM) may be worth the stretch.

[benb]

Wait ... You're supposed to go around the rocks & such? Hmmm ... I usually aim for them which is part of the challenge.

And I guess I don't get that one will be on a 4-6" travel bike to really enjoy northeast like rocky/rooty trails ... I guess if your goal is to smooth the trails out as if you're riding on a dirt path ... Ok, but then why not ride on a dirt path? Again I'll contend to anyone getting into mtn biking, try both.

Our trails in upstate ny are those typical rocky/rooty northeast trails. My closest biking buds are all hardtail guys because we like the challenge instead of the bike just soaking up the bumps ... We like the feel as opposed to the numbness of FS ... Kind of like a comparison between a good feeling steel road bike and a dead wood carbon bike.


I guess it depends on what your goal is.. after having tried it both ways.. HT for about 5 years and then FS for the last 3.. if your goal is to go fast on rocky/rooty trails I think the FS XC bikes are just better bikes and will get you down the trail faster. Yep.. you still ride around stuff when it's faster.. but when you have to ride over it, you're better off on the FS bike.

It's totally obvious to me (for example when I went to Nationals to watch this year) that the HT XC bikes & cross bikes are basically converging into the same kind of bike. It's even the same group of riders dominating both disciplines. (E.x. Shorttrack XC.. it's practically a cross course with the barriers taken down)

But when you look at a more "pure" MTB experience such as the long course XC this year the FS bikes are faster, there is plenty of stuff you have to ride over, and a different kind of rider wins.

At this point the weight penalty is easily absorbed by the advantages of having the rear shock. e.x. climbing up a hill that has roots at 90 degrees to your direction of travel... FS is faster period.

I've always been worried about maintenance but haven't actually broken anything that wouldn't have also broken on a HT, and I haven't had to service or replace my shock. The fork is no different.. in fact if you get the weight weenie fork on a HT you probably end up doing work on the fork even earlier.

It's just if the HT bikes are converging on being cross bikes with a flat bar.. and some of the race courses are basically becoming as bland and boring as a cross course.. you might as well get the FS trail or XC bike so you have the bike that is best designed for "real" mountain biking. It's nothing like road.. go get the bike your XC hero rides and it could very well suck for real trails.

I don't get the feel thing.. if your FS bike is set up correctly you're still feeling the bumps.. it's just the rear wheel stays in contact with the ground. I'm not sure the touchy feely "ride quality" thing even has a valid basis for MTBs.. they are designed to ride on non-smooth surfaces. The difference in terrain of any two sections of dirt (or even the same track) on any two different days will change "ride quality" more then the differences in two bikes that fit properly.

If it wasn't for the age distribution of this forum I doubt anyone would be talking about HT bikes at all other then as a good place to start from. The only other big negative I see for a FS bike to start with is the learning curve for setup is harder. Not only do you need to learn how to gauge the right tire pressures & fork setup for given conditions you also need to learn how to set up your shock.

[gt6267a]

A few more thoughts … for a little perspective I am 5’7” @ 175.

First on buying used … one nice thing about buying a used bike on ebay, as long as something totally screwy does not happen, I see buying on ebay like renting. For example, in 2005, I bought a Moots Smoothie AL for $1400. 18-24 months later I sold it for about $1200, and that sale was not in the best selling season. I probably could have gotten more if I waited until spring. So, I paid $200 to rent a bike for a year and half.

My point here is this, obviously there is value in doing your homework and not buying a beaten dog, but once a bike is mostly depreciated (kind of like being mostly dead), you don’t lose much more. Therefore, I say buy something nice off the bay or mtbr classifieds, ride it for a little while. If you like it, keep it. If it’s not for you, dump it and move along and think of the transaction costs as a rental fee. While owning, you will learn all kinds of good things about what you really want in a bike, or at least what you want to try next …

I never really gelled with the Smoothie. A friend found a great sale on a Salsa Dos Niner and I bought it. I like the big wheels, with the semi-ht it climbs nice. In no way do I feel too short to ride a 29er or that its sluggish … but it is hell on wheels going down hill fast.

A few months after picking up the Dos, I tried out a specialized epic. It ruled. I was way faster on the single track, it climbed great, and with the full suspension I descended about 3 x the speed. I am not kidding.

The brain is a lot of fun. At the hardest setting the bike rides like a hard tail. At the softest setting it was pretty squishy and too plush for my liking. I found a sweet spot somewhere in the middle. It kept the rear tire on the trail but I could get out of the saddle and monkey around on the bike without feeling like I was digging into the suspension and not the trail.

One of these days, I will get around to selling the dos and an epic will be on the short list for its replacement.

[samtaylor1]

One of the big questions, which many people won't ask you when you are seeking there opinion iabout FS vs hardtail, s how is your back? If you have back pain or a propensity to get back pain, a full suspension bike is what you should get no matter what (in fact, for those of us with parents who have arthritis but want to stay active, a full suspension bike is a great bike for general use- I bought my dad a cheap one- the lowest end trek fuel for 700 and it has done wonders for him).

Sam

[vandeda]

I guess it depends on what your goal is.. after having tried it both ways.. HT for about 5 years and then FS for the last 3.. if your goal is to go fast on rocky/rooty trails I think the FS XC bikes are just better bikes and will get you down the trail faster. Yep.. you still ride around stuff when it's faster.. but when you have to ride over it, you're better off on the FS bike.


Most of what you wrote is summarized by what you wrote above "if your goal is to go fast on rocky/rooty trails ..."

Nope, its not. I usually like the most technical line to pick my way through, not fly through. If there's a large rock on the edge of the trail to hop up ... I'll hit the rock. If there's a hard rooty uphill line, I'll try that. If there's a smooth line or a line full of tire snagging rocks downhill ... I'll pick my way through the rocks. If there's a log, I'll try to hop the fatest section I can. My favorite riding buds are the same mindset.

When I rode a nice FS ... you're right, I could fly over rougher sections, but that took all the fun out of it for me and my favorite riding bud. Our comment to each other was "hey, I think they bolted a Lazy Boy to the seatpost"

I don't race, I don't care to fly over the obstacles or take the fastest line. I'll take the hardest line I can ... Or harder than I can and try it until I get it, or leave it until next time. Not everyone just wants to fly ... I know guys who do and I rarely ride with them, instead choosing those of like mindset.

A FS isn't the answer for everyone ... Even those riding the northeast rocks/roots. But everyone has to decide for themselves. We can tell them the plusses/minuses of both, but we can't tell them "you should/need to get this ...."