CSI's, They're Not For Everybody (A Long Perge)

[bobscott]

At least, CSIs do not appear to be for me. I think they represent a great period in Serotta's legacy but my luck with two of them has been very bad. Twice bitten, once very hard...I'm shying away from CSIs and possibly used steel for good.

Here's the story

CSI number 1. Ebayed it, my hard to find size 63 cm, good price, pretty frame (fillet/lugs). But it came with a dented top tube which the seller tried to hide with an American flag sticker. Seller took it back without a problem. Disappointed but wanted a CSI all the more

CSI number 2. Bought from a seller who honestly loved the frame and was reluctant to sell it. Another 63 cm, pretty mostly fillet brazed, nice steel fork. There was a very small amount of surface rust on a few spots on the BB shell ; this was superficial and not enough that I though was any concern about prolonged exposure to moisture (the seller did mentioned this; when he said that he had not done an internal rust treatment, it appeared the this was a normal amount of surface rusting). The frame built up great and rode even better. Every ride was a new experience, I was in love. But about a month after I had built it up, disaster struck. While wiping it off after another of my nice rides, I found a hair-line crack around the drive side chainstay about 3 cm from the dropout. Tried to tell myself it was a new paint scratch for several days. Then I looked at it with a 10x loupe and it was a crack which had penetrated the tube.


I talked to Dave Kirk, who is a GREAT GUY and was VERY KNOWLEDGEABLE as well as VERY HELPFUL. He said this is a very unusual spot for a chainstay crack (chainstay cracks usually occur at the bb not at the dropout). He suspected internal rust and suggested I scrape the paint off in the area and inspect it better. I did and there is certainly internal rusting at the crack site. When I get the heart to do it, I am going to saw a piece out of the chainstay for a better inspection. Dave also said that frames with internal rusting frequently have repeated tube failures and that I should consider this before having it repaired.

Here are the hard earned lessons . Please add any others I may have missed as I want to get my money's worth here.

1. Rust susceptibility is a shortcoming of steel frames
2. Internal Rusting of modern thin wall tubing is real and is not a non-issue as some would have you believe (thought I knew this one as the first thing I did with the frame was treat it with framesaver and add a Weigle style threaded bb drain hole).
3. All purchases carry risk, purchases of used products carry more risk
4. Sometimes things just don't go your way.
5. Life's too short to dwell on these times, forget about them and move on (to prettier and more reliable framesets)

If you got this far, thanks for reading this purge.
bobscott

[Too Tall]

VERY sorry to hear about this.
A custom CSI remains one of my fav. steel bikes ever...steel bikes just sing to me bro. No two ways about it.

Look, bottom line I think the bike was badly abused and you were delt dirty. This is a wonderful bike, great design with zero inherit flaws. I'd rarely ever say that about anything...but the CSI is all that.

I've got all sorts of bikes, the best riding ones...the ones I want under my fanny for a looooong time to come are steel.

Hang in there bub.

[bobscott]

I hesitated to post this because I knew alot of people would think I was "dealt dirty".
The person I bought it was fourthright and a great guy...we became friends through the sale.
I am afraid it was just bad luck.
bobscott

[Archibald]

At least, CSIs do not appear to be for me. I think they represent a great period in Serotta's legacy but my luck with two of them has been very bad. Twice bitten, once very hard...I'm shying away from CSIs and possibly used steel for good.

Here's the story

CSI number 1. Ebayed it, my hard to find size 63 cm, good price, pretty frame (fillet/lugs). But it came with a dented top tube which the seller tried to hide with an American flag sticker. Seller took it back without a problem. Disappointed but wanted a CSI all the more

CSI number 2. Bought from a seller who honestly loved the frame and was reluctant to sell it. Another 63 cm, pretty mostly fillet brazed, nice steel fork. There was a very small amount of surface rust on a few spots on the BB shell ; this was superficial and not enough that I though was any concern about prolonged exposure to moisture (the seller did mentioned this; when he said that he had not done an internal rust treatment, it appeared the this was a normal amount of surface rusting). The frame built up great and rode even better. Every ride was a new experience, I was in love. But about a month after I had built it up, disaster struck. While wiping it off after another of my nice rides, I found a hair-line crack around the drive side chainstay about 3 cm from the dropout. Tried to tell myself it was a new paint scratch for several days. Then I looked at it with a 10x loupe and it was a crack which had penetrated the tube.


I talked to Dave Kirk, who is a GREAT GUY and was VERY KNOWLEDGEABLE as well as VERY HELPFUL. He said this is a very unusual spot for a chainstay crack (chainstay cracks usually occur at the bb not at the dropout). He suspected internal rust and suggested I scrape the paint off in the area and inspect it better. I did and there is certainly internal rusting at the crack site. When I get the heart to do it, I am going to saw a piece out of the chainstay for a better inspection. Dave also said that frames with internal rusting frequently have repeated tube failures and that I should consider this before having it repaired.

Here are the hard earned lessons . Please add any others I may have missed as I want to get my money's worth here.

1. Rust susceptibility is a shortcoming of steel frames
2. Internal Rusting of modern thin wall tubing is real and is not a non-issue as some would have you believe (thought I knew this one as the first thing I did with the frame was treat it with framesaver and add a Weigle style threaded bb drain hole).
3. All purchases carry risk, purchases of used products carry more risk
4. Sometimes things just don't go your way.
5. Life's too short to dwell on these times, forget about them and move on (to prettier and more reliable framesets)

If you got this far, thanks for reading this purge.
bobscott
Not to argue with DK, but chainstay breaks near the dropout are pretty common but he's dead right that if the stay rusted from the inside out, the frame is probably toast. You can have the frame inspected for internal rust or you can do it yourself with a dental mirror and a strong flashlight. If you decide to repair the bike, I have a set of Serotta replacement chainstays for it that I'd be happy to send to your builder.

[Samster]

steel, ti, aluminum, carbon...

everything breaks eventually. some sooner than others, some more catastrophically than most.

i broke a campy aluminum crankarm once (old super record) and got p1ssy about it at my lbs, but the owner pointed out "you're a business guy... you should know that all capital depreciates."

[Sandy]

Sadly and unfortunately you had a bad experience with two CSIs. I agree that rust is more of a problem on steel frames than some may think. However, if properly maintained, it is more of the necesary time spent to maintain the integrity and cosmetics of the frame than a real concern about its longevity. Hopefully, there will be a properly maintained and cared for CSI in your future. Unfortunately, I think that you were the exception when it comes to CSI frames.

Here is to a great CSI in the future for you. Please don't give up on steel or the CSI-Too great of a frame and too important a part of Serotta's history.

PS- I still think that it is the CSI and not a CSi as most say now.


Sandy

[Samster]

Not to argue with DK, but chainstay breaks near the dropout are pretty common but he's dead right that if the stay rusted from the inside out, the frame is probably toast. You can have the frame inspected for internal rust or you can do it yourself with a dental mirror and a strong flashlight. If you decide to repair the bike, I have a set of Serotta replacement chainstays for it that I'd be happy to send to your builder.
+1. steel is easy to repair (but not free! serotta charges $250 for tube replacement, which is still a great deal. but you have to add another $400 or so for repaint.)

[Too Tall]

Archie to the rescue. NICE :)

[David Kirk]

Not to argue with DK, but chainstay breaks near the dropout are pretty common but he's dead right that if the stay rusted from the inside out, the frame is probably toast. You can have the frame inspected for internal rust or you can do it yourself with a dental mirror and a strong flashlight. If you decide to repair the bike, I have a set of Serotta replacement chainstays for it that I'd be happy to send to your builder.

I agree with you Arch-man. You often see chainstay failures right at the dropout/chainstay juncture but this was a failure of the stay 3 cm forward of the drop. Very unusual. It is in effect in the middle of the tube where stresses are very low. The only failures I've personally seen in this area were caused by internal corrosion.

Dave

[cadence90]

I agree with you Arch-man. You often see chainstay failures right at the dropout/chainstay juncture but this was a failure of the stay 3 cm forward of the drop. Very unusual. It is in effect in the middle of the tube where stresses are very low. The only failures I've personally seen in this area were caused by internal corrosion.

Dave
Just curious: 3cm forward of the dropout on the DS. Could there have been an issue with the cable-stop there, with braze failure and then H2O penetration?

[bobscott]

Very nice of you to make the chainstay offer, Archie.
Once I take a look at the interior of the chainstay at the crack site, I'll know for sure what I'm going to do.
bobscott

[David Kirk]

Just curious: 3cm forward of the dropout on the DS. Could there have been an issue with the cable-stop there, with braze failure and then H2O penetration?

I've not seen photos of the bike and don't know if the crack is right along side the cable guide or not. The cable guides are brazed on with silver and it would be very hard to cook the stay so badly to cause and issue with silver. Anything is possible but it seems very unlikely.


Typically the cable guide is 10 cm forward of the drop so any heat related problems seem unlikely.

Dave

[Ozz]

At least, CSIs do not appear to be for me....The frame built up great and rode even better. Every ride was a new experience, I was in love....

1. Rust susceptibility is a shortcoming of steel frames

2. Internal Rusting of modern thin wall tubing is real and is not a non-issue as some would have you believe (thought I knew this one as the first thing I did with the frame was treat it with framesaver and add a Weigle style threaded bb drain hole).
...bobscott
Sorry to hear about your experience....to be fair though, the problem was not with the CSI as a bike, but with steel itself and that it can rust if not properly cared for including internal anti-rust treatments.

I do understand your position though, and being bit by rust as you were, I can see you wouldn't want this nagging at you everytime you get caught in some rain during a ride. That is why I picked up a Legend to compliment my CSI. ;)

I hope you find another bike to fall in love with....maybe a Legend? :beer:

[bobscott]

Dave is right. The cable stop/guide is not near the crack.
Like the analytical examination.
bobscott

[Serotta PETE]

What I would suggest is send it to Serotta or to Dave Kirk, so they can evaluate the entire frame for repair.

THe newer CSIs came from factory with "frame saver".

The lugs you describe date the bike to early 90s at newest. The serial # or owner can give you a better range.

Some of the older CSIs had hidden top tube cable guides and a tab for the front der. to connect to. Newer ones did not have hidden tt cable routing.

Rust never sleeps and the without the prevention (and even sometimes with it) tubes rust from the inside... then we get a shock...makes me want to go check mine.

Sorry to hear about it....The new CDA or a Kirk (for lugs of filet) might be an alternative. Dave rides about that same size you do....talk him into wanting a new one and then get his beautiful blue KIRK :D

PETE

[djg]

I hesitated to post this because I knew alot of people would think I was "dealt dirty".
The person I bought it was fourthright and a great guy...we became friends through the sale.
I am afraid it was just bad luck.
bobscott

Yeah, I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that you were dealt dirty. I don't think the '90s tubing really creates a hot house flower (or dry house flower?) but it's possible that the fella who sold you the frame took reasonable precautions AND failed to get framesaver (or its ilk) throughout the frame, including inside the stays maybe especially. A little exposure, a little water, and a lot of time, and you might have a problem. As others have said, if you love the bike, it's probably worth sending it to Serotta (or the reputable frame builder who does paint and repairs of your choice) to have the frame really checked out. If it's just a matter of replacing one tube and a respray, it could be a relative bargain. If there are problems throughout the frame, not so much.

[bobscott]

Yes it is an older CSI and as in yours and Neil Young's words, rust never sleeps.

Along these lines, here is the Serrotta statement on rust proofing

Steel Frames — Serotta uses the finest modern steel alloys in the construction of our steel bicycle frames. With proper care, corrosion should not affect the long-life and integrity of the frame. To help limit the potential for corrosion, an approved rust inhibitor such as ‘Frame Saver’ should be reapplied to the inside of your frame at least once a year. Ask your dealer to provide this service at the time of your annual overhaul service.

Wonder how many people go this far? Once a year seems excessive even to me, a victim of Rust, the All Powerful One.
bobscott

[cpg]

If it rusted from the inside out there it's because the bike was hung up by the front wheel while the bike was wet. Either the bike was left like that MANY times or left in that state for a long time. Otherwise if the bike was left on two wheels the water would run down hill and to the bottom bracket where it would drip out of the drain hole(s).

I'm sorry for your misfortune but I wouldn't make a sweeping generalization about steel and rust. Your experience is a rare one. Unfortunately ALL materials corrode in one way or another but with a little bit of care most will last a long time.

Curt

[regularguy412]

Wonder how many people go this far? Once a year seems excessive even to me, a victim of Rust, the All Powerful One.
bobscott

I built up my 1997 CSI in mid-1997. I FrameSavered it before putting any parts on. I did two coats with a 24 hour drying period in between ( and after the 2nd coat). I raced it for 3 years. Then it sat in my basement, on the rollers for 6 years, while I made concessions to the working world. It stared at me in effigy from the rollers, every time I went down to do laundry.

Fast forward to 2006. I'm back on my CSI -- riding every day. I notice a small piece of the front, top-tube cable stop is missing ! Nothing dramatic, but it's become the victim of rust. February 2007, I send the stripped-down frame in to Serotta for two new top-tube cable guides to be replaced ( plus fresh paint). Evidently _ALL_ the internals were immaculate -- NO RUST INSIDE. Remember, I only Frame Savered it ONCE at the time of build-up.

Now I have my CSI back. I put the Frame Saver protectant on (two coats , again) and re-built the bike. I'm looking forward to another ten years of rust-free riding. However, it probably wouldn't hurt to put new Frame Saver in at least every two or three years -- just to be safe.

Mike in AR

[bobscott]

I didn't mean for this to come across as a sweeping dismissal of steel as a building material. I know this is an exception...bad luck as I have said.

There are too many aspects of steel that I like for me to abandon it. My replacement frame will be steel. But at this point I am more than a bit hesitant to go with anything used and a bit more so with anything of used steel. There was really no indication of internal rust of any magnitude in this frameset. I must also say that I still need to absolutely verify the presence of internal rust by cutting and looking inside the cracked chainstay as Dave Kirk has suggested.

I made this post with the idea that all materials have their shortcomings and that knowing what shortcomings one has to deal with is critical. Corrosion is a real shortcoming of steel but it can be dealt with. However, as my experience shows with an older untreated frameset, ignore it at your own (or your buyer's) peril.

Thanks,
bobscott

[Kevan]

Rusty Jones!


http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=940DE1DD1F3EF934A35751C1A96E9482 60

[97CSI]

Sorry to hear about your unhappy experiences. However, the first can be discounted as having nothing to do with it being a CSI. An iffy seller could have been selling you a Legend Ti or Mevici carbon (although it would, indeed, be tricky to hide a 'dent' in a carbon tube) with the same problem. So this one can be discounted.

Personally, as I continue to add more miles on my recently acquired CSI I can only say that it is the best riding bicycle I've owned in 55 years of same (although I can't say I was very critical of what I was riding the first ten years). A wonderful frameset that I would not hesitate to recommend to anyone (and, I do).

Suggest you send along to Serotta (NY), Dave Kirk (MT) or Tom Kellogg (PA) or another competent steel repair person for an evaluation. You may find that it is not as bad as you think.

[theprep]

My 2001 CIII rusted from the inside out as well. Serotta took care of it and cut out/replaced the seat tube and repainted.

I believe the damage was done in the first 3 months of ownership. The bike was built by my LBS and they installed a carbon seatpost with no grease.

The first time I pulled the seatpost the rust was there and all I did was framesaver over existing rust. I definately think the factory framesaver step was omitted by accident.

4 years down the road the paint was popping off the back of the seat tube just above the BB. It happens.

[stevep]

buy new next time.
you will know what yr getting.

[vaxn8r]

Not to argue with DK, but chainstay breaks near the dropout are pretty common but he's dead right that if the stay rusted from the inside out, the frame is probably toast. You can have the frame inspected for internal rust or you can do it yourself with a dental mirror and a strong flashlight. If you decide to repair the bike, I have a set of Serotta replacement chainstays for it that I'd be happy to send to your builder.
OK, where's (the real) Archibald and what have you done with him?

[RPS]

I didn't mean for this to come across as a sweeping dismissal of steel as a building material.Maybe a long-term answer for some is stainless steel. My fork and drive-side chainstay are (were) not even painted.

[alembical]

cpg & all,

I have always been told to keep my CSI hanging by the front wheel. I hang it up by the front wheel (with the seat post removed) and have been under the impression that this way the water would drain out the seat tube. Have I been caring for my baby wrong?

Thanks, Alembical

[Marcusaurelius]

I bought a used CSI a couple of years ago and the first thing I checked for was rust but there was none. Hurray. But the first thing I did was coat the inside of the tubes with framesaver. I recoat every steel frame I own with framesaver ever two years and have never had a problems with rust even on my steel commuter bike that endures months of torrential monsoon rain.

I love my CSi but to be honest I've never noticed much different between it and a Colorado III I used to ride.

[Ginger]

I don't see this as a problem specifically with a CSi, the first problem could probably appear on any frame...it's a shame to make it appear that it was the CSi's fault for being dented.

Ah well.

[Wayne77]

I've got a neighbor who's been riding a cro-mo 89 Specialized Rockhopper to work 3-5 days a week for the last 10 years, no framesaver, leaves it outside alot, many rides in the rain, he weighs 250 lbs, and the frame is still in one piece. I keep waiting for it to disintegrate.

carbon can crack
aluminum can crack
steel can rust
magnesium can burn really hot, and can be be used to make underwater flares, or used to start a fire if you get stranded on an arctic night while riding your Dogma
titanium can..um..get real dirty. Oh, ok, yes it can fail too..

Point is, there's a horror story out there for every material. But I agree that it's buyer beware when it comes to used stuff. Not sure how any of this applies specifically to a CSI though ("CSI's, They're Not for Everybody")..

[mdeeds71]

I remember being told a story in Ca that a very nice Legend came in for its annual checkup and when the BB was pulled a half pint of water came out with it. They saved some of it in a baby food jar and showed the owner. All he had to say is he better get his colorado checked as well.

Did the 2004 CDAs have a frame saver applied from the factory???

[Archibald]

OK, where's (the real) Archibald and what have you done with him?
Grasshopper, some people look at a pool of water and see nothing but their own reflection.

Oh, and THROAT PUNCH!

http://forums.thepaceline.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=15938

[alembical]

So, what is the recommended way to store a steel bike we want to last forever?

Alembical

[rwsaunders]

Beyond the application of framesaver and frequent waxing, we should probably consult Walt Disney's estate for other preservation techniques.

[Serotta PETE]

I hear wine, especially red, does wonders in preservation :beer:


Beyond the application of framesaver and frequent waxing, we should probably consult Walt Disney's estate for other preservation techniques.

[bobscott]

Thanks to everyone for the good discussion of my dilemma.

One last clarifier. My "they're not for everyone" initial title was meant to be clever in a "twice bitten three times shy" sort of way. A twist on my repeated travails trying to find my CSI....a failed quest for the "holy frameset" I guess it didn't work for a number of people.
No reason for offence or defence; it was not meant to be "disrespectful" to steel as a building material or CSIs as frames. I took a hard blow from our old friend rust and thought I could pass on the lesson.

bobscott

[regularguy412]

Did the 2004 CDAs have a frame saver applied from the factory???

When my 1997 model CSI got back to me this past June after its refurb, I noted that the interior of the tubes ( at least where they meet at the BB shell ) looked like they had a white-ish coating on them. I can't recall if the interiors looked that way when I first got the frame back in '97. I FrameSavered it anyway.

Mike in AR

[Peter P.]

My daily rider is a 1984 lugged, steel Trek-Reynolds 531C. I significantly abused this thing. I kept it in a damp basement. I would sweat profusely on it and not clean it afterwards. Sweat collected under the rear brake housing, run through tunnels along the top of the top tube. The rust began to make the tube look like hamburger. After owning it maybe 5 years, it looked bad enough that I had it repainted black, to hide the scars.

Fast forward to 2000 or so. I abused this paint job as well, and the top tube looked BAD. I had the frame powdercoated and told the painter not to worry about the imperfections caused by the rust, just paint the thing. For some reason, the powdercoat didn't take at two tiny spots on the top tube. Upon close inspection I've discovered those two spots are HOLES in the top tube, large enough to insert a paper clip.

I ride this bike every day. Some day it may fail. Since I bought it used, it won't be covered under warranty. Then I'll have a bona fide excuse to buy a new frame. The one thing I learned with this bike is that after a sweaty ride I should wipe down the frame with a damp cloth. I also learned that split cable stops on the top tube make this easier since there's no housing for the sweat to collect under, therefore split housing in better, and I suppose an internal cable run would be even better. I practice this now so that I'll be more diligent with my next frame, but this one has lasted 23 years so I'd say steel is pretty reliable, considering the abuse it takes. Therefore, it won't matter if I forget to care for it.

Look, a frame will not last forever and there's no sense in obsessing about it. A bike is meant to be ridden, not put on a mantle and oogled at. So accept the fact that like EVERYTHING, it will decay over time. You could take a modicum of care, but don't fret about corrosion you can't see or watch over. The recommendation to framesaver your frame annually is merely a CYA precaution. Once should be sufficient; don't fret about the rest.