group ride etiquette

[deechee]

If you're riding in a group of "friends", do you wait for slower riders at intersections/midway points? Do you go back looking for them if you don't see them after 30min/an hour?

[dauwhe]

Yes.

[rnhood]

Yes, you don't want to lose them.

http://www.bamacyclist.com/articles/groupridetech.html

[Bart001]

. . . you don't lose them along the way.

30 mins? An hour? Too long IMHO.

If your "friend" had a flat or crashed, would you want them back there on their own for that long? Would you want them wondering where THEIR "friends" were for that long?

(I treat people who aren't "friends," but who happen to be part of the group who all started out together, better than that. (Unless they have said "go ahead and don't worry about me.))

Plain 'n simple, to me.

[J.Greene]

If you're riding in a group of "friends", do you wait for slower riders at intersections/midway points? Do you go back looking for them if you don't see them after 30min/an hour?

If I'm riding with friends I ride with friends. I'd not let a buddy get 30 minutes behind. If I'm solo training and a buddy tags along, no worries because i'm training and they know that.

I am pretty strict about the ride start. I leave 2 minutes before the scheduled ride time so my buds know to be ready.

JG

[BURCH]

I have all kinds of riding buddies. More fit, less fit, smell the roses, feel the burn. No matter who they are if we start out on a ride together, i would expect them to wait up if they get out of sight. I would do the same. Otherwise, go ride solo.

[Fixed]

bro group rides with racers always turn out to be an ego fest around here .
most often with the american classic team trying to drop everyone .
when their stuff's not falling apart
imho
cheers

[rwsaunders]

It's worth the wait for a friend, especially if someone flatted out or is injured. There are also those of us who tend to get lost from time to time on less traveled routes (who me?), who appreciate when the group stays together. It's not than fun hanging at the coffee stop alone.

Also be cautioned that Dave Thompson's been rumored to employ a roving band of bike thieves, scouring the countryside for dropped and lost cyclists with the right frame size and build. Watch your six.

[stevep]

classic team trying to drop everyone .
when their stuff's not falling apart


butch, youre a card man.

[deechee]

thanks everyone. I have always waited or turned back for others. I'm just verifying that some of the people whom I thought were friends won't be anymore. I blasted a number of them yesterday after hearing how another friend of mine got ditched and left for dead in the middle of nowhere in pouring rain over the weekend. Some of them snapped back at me and that made me even more mad...

[Fixed]

bro how about crashing and all your (friends) ride away and leave you bleeding in the middle of the road . that is what happens here if you go out with the team rides .
cheers

[William]

When I'm on my own, I go balls to the wall, sprint over the tops of hills, fly down decents, sprint intervals, etc... When I ride with friends, I ride what ever pace they ride. If I drop them on the hills, I wait at the top for them to get back on. If it seems like it's taking them to long, I'll ride back down and find them. Cover their back, and they'll cover yours.

Just say'in.


William

[SWorks4me]

...it should be established what kind of ride it is going to be. Fast?/Moderate?/No one gets left behind?

Then I would suggest meeting points. so that if there is a sizable gap, everyone knows that there are meet points along the way.

[Bart001]

...it should be established what kind of ride it is going to be. Fast?/Moderate?/No one gets left behind?

Then I would suggest meeting points. so that if there is a sizable gap, everyone knows that there are meet points along the way.

Ultimately, the right answer is that it should be discussed before the ride starts. If, even among friends, some don't want to wait, then I guess the slower people (such as would be me) need to decide whether they want to do the ride, or not. If some protocol is agreed upon, and then broken, then re-evaluation of "friends" is needed.

The "friends' rides" I do just have it as a not-needed-to-be-said rule (it's not even a "rule" its just what we do) that we wait for each other, be it if someone is out of sight, or at an intersection, etc.

[saab2000]

Depends on what kind of ride it is. Every area seems to have a ride each week which is essentially a race. Nobody waits. That's fine. Where the line is crossed is if there's a crash. Then common sense says to stop no matter what.

But these local unofficial world championships are actually good rides usually and after the dangerous riders are weeded out can be the best training and racing of the week, better than 'real' races!

But if it is a less established speedfest then we should probably wait for each other at established points on the ride.

[Sandy]

I am sensitive to what cyclists say to me. How they act towards me. Too sensitive, especially with those that I really care about. I have found group riding with friends to have caused me real stress because of my expectations, which I have simply had to modify greatly.

I would absolutely NEVER drop anyone that I met to do a ride- club group ride or a ride organized with some friends. If I meet people to do a ride, that means we ride together, period. If someone wants to go ahead some, that is fine, but the majority of the ride should be spent in some reasonably close proximity. Rides should be shared- that is a large portion of the enjoyment- the interaction and camaraderie. The actual cycling is only part of what can and should make up a fun and enjoyable ride. But I realize that I am simply in a minority, and a SMALL one at that. I have had some very difficult, meaningful, disappointing, and hurtful experiences because my ideas of group riding seem to be shared by so few that I encounter.

I have learned to simply change my expectations of group riding and how people should interact in such. I realize that each cyclist is unique. Unique in his or her cycling motivation, focus, goals, dedication, ability, fitness, experience, time constraints, and the purpose of each and every ride. I am trying very hard to totally respect and be sensitive to others during rides, as I genuinely realize that cylists ride for differernt reasons. What they need and want from a ride, and hence how they interact with fellow cyclists, may simply be vastly different and incongruent with what I might expect or want.

It has been a very difficult lesson for me. I will never drop anyone, will always try to be helpful and supportive, and will, hopefully, always respect and be sensitive to other cyclists needs and goals during a ride. I have simply changed my expectations of group/friends/shared rides.

I have decided to really focus on cycling improvement. Hopefully, IF I do improve, my perspective on what I think is important on shared group rides will never change. I do know that I will respect and be sensitive to others needs, and have different expectations, because if I don't, the experiences will simply be too hurtful to me.


So Sensitive Sandy

[swoop]

we all look out for each other here... and different rides have different ethics and values.
a social ride is at a pace all can hold. everyone stops for flats. if there is a hill, all wait at the top and bottom. a large social ride ..well, i avoid those because they are too chaotic and crashy except for 'holiday rides'.

a training ride is with those who can fend for themselves. all wait for flats,
regroup at a mid point or at prescribed points, but usual the ride is sub tempo and by design together. these are small rides. less skilled riders are looked out for and highly respected.

mid and big local group rides (30-200 people).. have regroup points built in. but you are presumed to be self sufficient. you might have friends look out for you and then you pace back or you have to just make it to the regroup points.

riding with the big boys.. they stop if you can change a flat in less than five minutes, otherwise your gumming up the works. if you're droppped you can catch them after the turn around. they're at work... your visiting and welcome but not if you hinder the work. (last week i pushed a nice guy up the hill to keep him in the pack.. we do take care of each other, and i knew i was there only by a thread too).

practice crits and training races... you're self sufficient and you need to know your place in the pack just so you dont get someone hurt. get your workout, have fun, and don't get yourself or anyone hurt. you'e held to understanding how things work and your'e abused lightly if you don't do smart things. you are abused severly if you're endagering people or doing stupid things... this is to keep things safe. it becomes life and death... and lessons are transmitted intensely and there isn't much forgiveness.

and quality training you do one your own.

atmo. (for the record.. atmo is a self-depricating statement. it references one's opinion in the third person, as if its a separate thing to be experienced by the speaker as having value just because it came from him. there's always a wink in an atmo. get it?. when you atmo, you're taking the piss outta yourself.

that's how things seem to work out here. everyone does do a great job of looking out for everyone... and any and all yelling is always out of love (where is suzanne sonje, the queen enforcer.. boulder?).

[SadieKate]

As others have said, it's all in setting expectations. I ride with a specific group of friends that gather from a couple hours drive away. It is a no-drop ride in that we wait for each other, look out for each other and enjoy the friendship as we ride at an agreed upon general pace. We've had a few instances of other's trying to join us where it just didn't work out. One person said she'd ridden a lot of hills so she'd do fine, but she didn't pay attention to the fact that we stated the average pace door-to-door was 50% faster than she could ride. Another person would consistently ride ahead of the leader in unfamilar areas and blow through critical intersections. After chasing her down 3 rides in a row, she was uninvited. Group consensus was that is she ever showed up again and pulled the same stunt, her rescue index went to zero and she was on her own.

On the same lines, if one of our group is training and needs to stick to a plan, you can come as a training partner with the expectation that you can maintain the same pace as that person or you're on your own. However, even in this scenario we wouldn't break up mid-ride without specific agreement so that no one worries about another's safety.

Everyone is friends in both situations, but expectations are different. You just have to agree upon them ahead of time.

[manet]

always give the money and keys to the slowest rider

[sspielman]

always give the money and keys to the slowest rider

Crap...I thought people were always giving me that stuff to keep because I was trustworthy.....

[manet]

Crap...I thought people were always giving me that stuff to keep because I was trustworthy.....

and endangered:

http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=trustworthy&word2=slow

[BURCH]

always give the money and keys to the slowest rider

Crap...I thought people were always giving me that stuff to keep because I was trustworthy.....


This is too funny...

[taz-t]

atmo. (for the record.. atmo is a self depricating statement. it refernces about one's opinion in the third person, as if its a separate thing to be experienced by the speaker as having value just because it came from him. (there's always a wink in an atmo). get it?. when you atmo, you're taking the piss outta yourself.



Best definition of atmo yet... the snipped stuff is good too.

[LesMiner]

Almost all the posts here are from those that may or may not be concerned over dropping someone else. Many say that a group ride should stay as a group and wait for the dropped rider.

What should the dropped rider do? Take up the challenge to atleast keep the group in site, maybe have a coronary doing so. Or accept not being at the same level as the group and continue solo. Or stop, turnaround and end the ride short. Maybe call a cab and go home.

Everyone on this forum has made an investment in a bike and a desire to perform at some level. The level may or may not be realistic. There certainly is just pure pleasure pedaling along under your own power. But there is also the allure of doing it better versus others or yourself. Getting into a sport also means improving by some measure. How many people play golf but do not count the strokes? How people just hit the tennis ball over the net to one another without keeping score? So maybe the dropped rider should just take it as a challenge.

[Fixed]

find a slower group ..imho
cheers

[swoop]

make your own group. make an email list.. start a no drop ride. find riders at your level. search out local clubs that have no drop rides.

i think of most smaller group rides as dinner parties. i don't invite myself on unless i'm asked and i respect the rules and values of the folks that are throwing the party.

there is ettiqutte but its group to group specific. some groups you never 'attack' and some rides welcome a sprint or jump as part of the fun.. but by definition a group is people together with a similar purpose.

the typical 'just show up' group ride holds a constant 20.... is 2 abreast and trusts riders to know their skill level before taking the front. you shouldn't drive the bus unless you know how to look out for the riders behind you.

when i'm new to a group i try and pay maximum respect to the ride. i sit on back of the group until i learn the dynamic of the ride. i try to be be a well mannered thoughtful guest as if i'm staying in someone's home. no matter what level.

it just all depends... some are about the riding and some are aboutthe compnay. the best are about both.
i'm a bg fan of emailing your friends and stating the nature of the ride and doing it.

[MarleyMon]

mmm, rehashed leftovers (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=30174&highlight=group+ride)

atmo

[J.Greene]

On the rides I host I won't invite you if you can't make it. Some of our rides are hard and some easy. I try to invite new or less strong riders to the easy ones. We like having new riders show up, but we want them to have a good time also.

JG


Almost all the posts here are from those that may or may not be concerned over dropping someone else. Many say that a group ride should stay as a group and wait for the dropped rider.

What should the dropped rider do? Take up the challenge to atleast keep the group in site, maybe have a coronary doing so. Or accept not being at the same level as the group and continue solo. Or stop, turnaround and end the ride short. Maybe call a cab and go home.

Everyone on this forum has made an investment in a bike and a desire to perform at some level. The level may or may not be realistic. There certainly is just pure pleasure pedaling along under your own power. But there is also the allure of doing it better versus others or yourself. Getting into a sport also means improving by some measure. How many people play golf but do not count the strokes? How people just hit the tennis ball over the net to one another without keeping score? So maybe the dropped rider should just take it as a challenge.

[dauwhe]

Almost all the posts here are from those that may or may not be concerned over dropping someone else. Many say that a group ride should stay as a group and wait for the dropped rider.

What should the dropped rider do? Take up the challenge to atleast keep the group in site, maybe have a coronary doing so. Or accept not being at the same level as the group and continue solo. Or stop, turnaround and end the ride short. Maybe call a cab and go home.

Everyone on this forum has made an investment in a bike and a desire to perform at some level. The level may or may not be realistic. There certainly is just pure pleasure pedaling along under your own power. But there is also the allure of doing it better versus others or yourself. Getting into a sport also means improving by some measure. How many people play golf but do not count the strokes? How people just hit the tennis ball over the net to one another without keeping score? So maybe the dropped rider should just take it as a challenge.

The OP referred to a group of "friends." I think that unless other arrangements are made, it's common courtesy to stay together, regroup, etc. If I go on the local club rides, I know that different rules apply, and I should be prepared to limp home after being cut off from the group at a stop light or something.

And if we want to keep score, then there are always races! : )

Dave

[flydhest]

But I realize that I am simply in a minority, and a SMALL one at that.

Sandy,
I respectfully disagree with you. I think you focus on the minority of people who are inconsiderate. I and many others have had great rides with you for exactly the reasons you state--riding with good people. I think the bike riding is of primary importance then, as well, however, just not the speed. There are only a few people whom I ride with that challenge me with speed or could drop me. When I'm in the mood for that, I seek out people to kick my butt, but most times, I just want to ride my bike and then it's about riding with people.

When I took on running the shop ride for the new shop in DC, I wanted to make sure that it was a group ride, with people riding together, not just people starting at the same time riding on the same route. Where's the fun in that?

[Fixed]

mmm, rehashed leftovers (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=30174&highlight=group+ride)

atmo
I say: Pass the Dutchie on the left hand side bro
cheers

[SWorks4me]

The published list of rides around here...(KC Metro) have the avg speed listed on almost all of them so you know which ride to attend or which group to hook up with.

For instance our hammer ride on non racing w/end Saturdays are listed as a fast paced race pace sections. Designated hammer sections and a re-grouping halfway. then on your own on the way home. Now if someone reads this and shows up and has no experiences racing or does not know what a cat1/2 is...sorry. This has happened in the past and I have explained to the riders what it s all about. Gave them a time and place for rides that they may enjoy more. nothing personal. they appreciated the clarification and were relieved that they were not going to be left in the dust.

[deechee]

This was for a group of people that train together; and open invitation (ie. significant others welcome) was sent out to a person of authority's cottage.

In my mind that means this should have been a fun ride for everyone; a getaway ride outside of the city. In my mind that should mean everyone stick together because a)few people know the route b)you invite anyone, you still be responsible for everyone! c)when weather goes down the drain (ie. downpour) even more important to do a headcount...

[SWorks4me]

This was for a group of people that train together; and open invitation (ie. significant others welcome) was sent out to a person of authority's cottage.

In my mind that means this should have been a fun ride for everyone; a getaway ride outside of the city. In my mind that should mean everyone stick together because a)few people know the route b)you invite anyone, you still be responsible for everyone! c)when weather goes down the drain (ie. downpour) even more important to do a headcount...


in that case...by all means, no one gets left behind.

[rwsaunders]

"And I will tell the evildoers this...they'll be no cyclist left behind."

[Sandy]

Sandy,
I respectfully disagree with you. I think you focus on the minority of people who are inconsiderate. I and many others have had great rides with you for exactly the reasons you state--riding with good people. I think the bike riding is of primary importance then, as well, however, just not the speed. There are only a few people whom I ride with that challenge me with speed or could drop me. When I'm in the mood for that, I seek out people to kick my butt, but most times, I just want to ride my bike and then it's about riding with people.

When I took on running the shop ride for the new shop in DC, I wanted to make sure that it was a group ride, with people riding together, not just people starting at the same time riding on the same route. Where's the fun in that?

Maybe one time I will try the shop ride. But I would never want to hold the group up significantly.

"I think that you focus on the minority of people who are inconsiderate." Actually, a great number of the people are basically considerate people. They just have different agendas during a ride. Their focus and purpose for a particular ride just might be different. Not wrong. Not right. Just different. That is what I have to learn, understand, respect, and be sensitive to.

When are you rides please, and where in DC is the shop?


Sandy

[dauwhe]

I remember the first group ride I did at the Finger Lakes Ramble last year, and the overwhelming sense of happiness I experienced knowing I wouldn't have to worry about getting dropped. I'd never been so relaxed on a group ride. Thanks Douglas for creating an environment where we could have so much fun!

Dave

[flydhest]

8:30 on Sundays at the Bike Rack at 14th and Q Street. 1412 Q Street, to be specific. The one aspect with which I am inflexible and unwilling to wait for people is leaving time. We roll at 8:45 no ifs, ands, or buts and no apologies.

I'm not around this weekend, however.

[sc53]

Hey Sandy, I'll meet up with you one Sunday to do Fly's shop ride and we'll agree to *not* drop each other, OK? I am out of town this weekend and next but how about one Sunday in August?
As for the question raised by the OP, I do a lot of PPTC club rides in the rural areas of southern MD and northern/western VA and though the "CC" rides are advertised as keeping a certain pace for hilly, flat, and moderately hilly rides, I have yet to go with a group who actually stays together or does anything near the stated paces for the given terrain. The ride leader and I stay together and stop for flats for anyone who's still left there back with us, but mostly the other group members just take off and do a much faster pace than is advertised for that level ride. Apparently our club is notorious for that as all level rides have "inflated" paces and very few people (apparently) ride my 15-18 mph pace over 50-70 miles. So I stick with Steve P's rides because he rides my pace and actually waits around for those who have problems, mechanicals, get lost, etc. Sandy, you and Steve have exactly the same expectations for a group ride, so I think you should look into the PPTC rides that he leads. He goes all fall and winter too. I went out most weekends with him this past winter. His rides are great fun! not to mention scenic, with rest stops at old cemeteries, churches with views of the water, colonial ruins, old manor houses, etc.
What's up with group rides that don't ride as a group?? :butt:

[benb]

These kind of issues only seem to be an issue on the disorganized "shop rides" and some of the wannabe recreational rides.

My experience racing with a team was 99% of the time no one was getting dropped. We had one ride which was heavily heavily advertised and waivered and the whole 9 yards which everyone knew was a drop ride. But everyone knew it.. you weren't invited on it unless you had been there to do the ride early in the season when it wasn't a "drop ride". Waiting for someone when you're all at approximately the same riding level just doesn't screw up your training in a meaningful way.

Now when on a rec club ride and the average speed of the ride is 5+ mph slower it just makes it look awful when riders are dropped. The last one I did I could have rode the route faster solo if I knew the route. Yet at times people were attacking like mad. I tried to help some of the slower riders bridge back up to the group but it can be awfully hard to help some people, especially when not a single person knows how to ride a paceline properly and help themselves.

I guess it all depends on how well you know yourself too. Last weekend 90 miles into a ride I just told everyone I was now going to "drop myself" and not to worry about me as I'd screwed up my hydration. If I hadn't said anything everyone seemed inclined to wait.

[vandeda]

What should the dropped rider do? Take up the challenge to atleast keep the group in site, maybe have a coronary doing so. Or accept not being at the same level as the group and continue solo. Or stop, turnaround and end the ride short. Maybe call a cab and go home.


I think this depends on the group. For example, I've had friends from work invite me on road rides. Everyone is faster than me, sometimes dropping me up hills and then slowing up to wait. But they invited me back again and again. When we pacelined, I never pulled because I could just keep up in the draft. But they kept inviting me back. And I've setup rides where I was the fastest one and did the same exact thing for them. Reason being is the invite was for friends to ride as friends, with the knowledge of how fast/slow we each are.

Now if the group is for a certain "level" and friends are invited, and you're the slowest and can't keep up ... well then, maybe it's time to thank them for inviting you and finding a slower group and working your way up to their level.

In other words ... as others have said, it's about expectations. Are the expectations for a certain level of performance, or performance be damned we're here to ride as friends regardless of our levels (personally I prefer the latter because I'm more about the people than the performance).

[Sandy]

Hey Sandy, I'll meet up with you one Sunday to do Fly's shop ride and we'll agree to *not* drop each other, OK? I am out of town this weekend and next but how about one Sunday in August?
As for the question raised by the OP, I do a lot of PPTC club rides in the rural areas of southern MD and northern/western VA and though the "CC" rides are advertised as keeping a certain pace for hilly, flat, and moderately hilly rides, I have yet to go with a group who actually stays together or does anything near the stated paces for the given terrain. The ride leader and I stay together and stop for flats for anyone who's still left there back with us, but mostly the other group members just take off and do a much faster pace than is advertised for that level ride. Apparently our club is notorious for that as all level rides have "inflated" paces and very few people (apparently) ride my 15-18 mph pace over 50-70 miles. So I stick with Steve P's rides because he rides my pace and actually waits around for those who have problems, mechanicals, get lost, etc. Sandy, you and Steve have exactly the same expectations for a group ride, so I think you should look into the PPTC rides that he leads. He goes all fall and winter too. I went out most weekends with him this past winter. His rides are great fun! not to mention scenic, with rest stops at old cemeteries, churches with views of the water, colonial ruins, old manor houses, etc.
What's up with group rides that don't ride as a group?? :butt:

Just saw your post. I will get in touch with you. I would love to do some of Steve's rides but they seem to be so far from where I live. I am getting a new car in a few weeks and there is a 2,000 mile, max 4200 rpm break-in period. I want to get the 2,000 miles over with as soon as possible, so I might drive to ride starts that are a good distance away.

Presently, I am trying to lose weight, get into better shape, and improve my climbing. Where can you park to do a ride from Fly's shop??


Sandy

[ds97a]

Yes, you don't want to lose them.

http://www.bamacyclist.com/articles/groupridetech.html

Great article. thanks! :)

[bzbvh5]

Club or Bike shop rides: There is a bike shop ride called the recreational ride and is advertised as a no drop ride. There are many type A personality's that ride this ride and are ready to drop any of us for being slow. I am fat and slow and don't mind being dropped, because it happens every week and I know the way. I usually end up waiting for the new riders to make sure they don't get lost on their first time doing the ride. It's kind of like my place in cycling. My feeling is that, you should never, never, never drop a new rider on a no drop ride or else they will not come back. After all, isn't that why people show up there to begin with - to have someone to ride with.

Just riding with friends: If you make the effort to meet others at a specific time and place to ride, why would you drop them? There are some people I do not ride with because every ride is a chase for the Yellow Jersey hammer fest.