What grade of Ti is used in Serotta tubing?

[pneumoped]

Based on several web searches on the various grades of Ti and the different alloys, I was curious what grade of Ti is used in the tubing for Serotta bikes.

I'm going to guess Ti 325 or more properly written: Ti-3Al-2.5V.

Thanks,
Chris

[JohnS]

Yep.

[Needs Help]

I'm going to guess Ti 325 or more properly written: Ti-3Al-2.5V.

Yep, if you want state of the art 6/4 ti tubing check with Moots and Strong Cycles.

[Kevan]

has "USDA" stamped on its seat tube. Or was that his calf? :rolleyes:

[ericmurphy]

I think I read somewhere on the forum recently that Reynolds produces the tubing for Serotta's ti bikes. Or maybe they just swage and butt the tubes produced elsewhere? Anyone care to confirm?

[Serotta PETE]

Yep, if you want state of the art 6/4 ti tubing check with Moots and Strong Cycles.

If you want a "state of the art" frame get a Serotta..

Sure that got the attention of a few.....and it is not meant to slight or insult those liking Moots or Strong BUT.....

As mentioned by folks far more "knowing" than I...there is a lot more that goes into a frame than "grade" tubing. How is the tubing designed, cut, made into a frame etc This is in addition to all the test that Serotta does in the areas of design and stress testing.

A frame is the sum of materials, frame design plus the best material, experience, build process, and reputation for customer service are just a small number of items that should be considered above tube designation.

Examples are the butting of Ti and another is the carbon tube set that Serotta uses. Butting is done differently and tube quality vary, all have a cost asscoiated with it. (independent of tube classification)

Another example is that the cost of carbon used by Serotta for the Ottrott is at least 2x times more than the tubing most other manufactures use. I assure you that this is not because Ben and the team like to "overpay". It is more a case of "over engineer" by Serotta. THe ride of the bike tells the story.

If a certain car manufacturer used all galvanized aluminum for lightness - would you buy the car or say it was better/leading edge? I know that I would look at many other aspects before saying it was.

This note is not meant to poke fun or slight another frame manufacturer. It is meant to bring an awareness that tubing grade in a top notch frame, independent of who makes it, "Is not a single sign of leading edge technology" but is just a statement of what tubing is used.

Thanks for listening(reading)

[Black Bart]

6Al(uminum)-4V(anadium) titanium alloy is significantly harder and less compliant than its 3Al-2.5V cousin. Very few builders consider it an acceptable material for an entire frame, but some use it for certain specific tubes in specific applications. It is "state of the art" only in that it is only recently that seamless tubing made of this material became available - the alloy itself has been around and used in special (non-bicycling) applications for quite some time.

[ericmurphy]

6Al(uminum)-4V(anadium) titanium alloy is significantly harder and less compliant than its 3Al-2.5V cousin. Very few builders consider it an acceptable material for an entire frame, but some use it for certain specific tubes in specific applications. It is "state of the art" only in that it is only recently that seamless tubing made of this material became available - the alloy itself has been around and used in special (non-bicycling) applications for quite some time.

I'm not positive about this, but I believe Serotta uses 6/4 ti for things like drop-outs and derailleur hangers, but does not use it for actual tubing.

[JohnS]

So how is 6/4 ti tubing more "state of the art" than 3/2.5? I don't mean the textbook theoretical answer. Tell us what your ride impressions were after riding frames made from each material. I'm sure everyone on this forum is dying to hear your views.

[Kevin]

Needs Help,

Are you riding the 6/4 Ti from Moots or from Strong Cycles? What are your observations on the ride? I have a Vortex with the 6/4 Ti as a beater bike. I have my own opinion on the ride, but I am curious about your experience.

Kevin

[ericmurphy]

Needs Help,

I have a Vortex with the 6/4 Ti as a beater bike. I have my own opinion on the ride, but I am curious about your experience.

Kevin

Wow...strange to think of a $3,400 frame as a "beater bike." What vintage is the Vortex?

The Vortex used to be my dream bike until I started looking at Serottas up close.

[H.Frank Beshear]

Kevin, Touche' Frank

[Kevin]

Eric,

The Vortex is a 2001. It became the beater bike because it is really too small for me. It now stands behind the Ottrott and the CSi in my stable. I really should sell it. I just can't be bothered with posting it on e-bay.

Kevin

[jerk]

titanium is not state of the art. it is either too heavy or too flexy. untill serotta buys the appropriate heat treatment facilities to work with the newest alloys their bikes will never be "state of the art". this is not to say they are not better made, nicer riding or longer lasting than the "state of the art". let's put it this way.....you will not see one titanium frame in the tour de france next month. then again you won't see any Porsche 911s in a Formula One race either.

jerk

[Climb01742]

senor jerk--what then is "state of the art" purely from a tubing angle? maybe the dogma pipes? interesting tidbit...easton has trouble sourcing its magnesium stems because the u.s. military keeps gobbling up all the magnesium tubing.

[bostondrunk]

Lemonds use Reynolds ti I think. But they couldn't possibly be built well.... ;)

[David Kirk]

6-4 must be better.....it goes to "11".

Dave

[Dr. Doofus]

ti

the i had an extra grand and didn't know what to do with it metal

doc wants a terraplane

[weisan]

An old article (http://www.velonews.com/tour2003/tech/articles/4455.0.html) in Velonews explaining why you don't find the Pros riding on Ti frames too often. Me think that will change in the near future.

[Climb01742]

i've heard that next year litespeed will, once again, be sponsoring a euro team. so ti, like arnold, could say...i'll be back.

[davids]

titanium is not state of the art. it is either too heavy or too flexy. untill serotta buys the appropriate heat treatment facilities to work with the newest alloys their bikes will never be "state of the art". this is not to say they are not better made, nicer riding or longer lasting than the "state of the art". let's put it this way.....you will not see one titanium frame in the tour de france next month. then again you won't see any Porsche 911s in a Formula One race either.

jerk
Dear Mr. Jerk,

While I'm usually loathe to disagree with you, I think there's an important distinction to be made here. When you write "state of the art", you're really implying "state of the racing art."

There's more than one art in play here, and there's certainly an argument to be made that the best Ti bikes represent the "state of the consumer art." (Substitute "recreational" or whatever term you're comfortable with for "consumer".)

I'm not a racer and have no plans to be. The state of the art bike for me and the state of the art bike for the Pros are going to be two very different machines.

Now as far as the 3/2.5 vs. 6/4, my money will be with the 3/2.5. Ductile is good!

[Dr. Doofus]

repeat after the doc:

geometry and the shape of the tubes has a greater effect than the frame material

its not the raw properties of the material. its what the builder does with it (a fina rides more smoothly than the doc's old team bike made of harsh, triangular zona steel)

a "state of the art" consumer bike...rides smoothly, responds to pedal input, handles well, is reasonably light (but if you're a consumer, do you really give a **** about weight?)...sounds like a *steel* bike made by a cat who can use those tubes to make it ride however you want...like mssrs. kirk, sachs, moulton, etc..

you can make a steel bike that has the "ride qualities" of ti (but ride a vortex, a legend, and an alta, and you'll start wondering what "ride qualities of ti" are, since each bike is very different)...the corrosion and weight arguments are non-issues...

ti is a flippin yuppie wallet bullcrap issue...you want to race, ride al or crbn...you want a nice bike, ride steel...you want to piss and moan about weld quality, ride ti


gettin fiesty,

doof

[OldDog]

a CSI. It's everything a ti bike yearns to be.

[Climb01742]

dear doof,
please check your butt, because someone is speaking out of it. :p
ok, let me now begin seriously...
i'm aware of your passionate belief that ti is yuppie frame candy. but i gotta disagree.
i have a fillet brazed CSi, torched by kelly himself. and it rides as sweet as butter. and steel by eddy, dario and david kirk. all sweet in their own flavors. i also have a IF ti CJ. and it is absolutely magical. steel is sublime. ti is magical.
it's obvious that our preferences for frame materials is highly personal, based on a distinct, idiosyncratic web of riding characteristics.
but aside from a fiesty desire to stir the pot, to dismiss ti as being yuppie frame candy is silly. built right, for the right rider, ti does stuff no other material can. its cool that you'd never own one. but ti frames do things that i, anyway, feel are pretty damn sweet.

[David Kirk]

I'm feeling the strong urge to speak about myself in the third person...will I be cooler that way? the Dave wonders..........

The Dave

[TmcDet]

when you do can you watch yourself to see if by chance you do something wrong?

I also wonder if everyone that speaks in 3rd person turns into a Bob at some point or another

[93legendti]

I have a:
1993 Legend ti
2002 Ottortt ti/carbon
2002 HC Cross ti
and 2004 Strong Reynolds 6/4 DB ti.

The Strong is built to the same dimensions as the 1993 Legend. The 2002 Ottrott also has the same dimensions. All 3 bikes have Reynolds Ouzo Pro Carbon Forks that are from 2002-2004. (The HC has Alpha Q Carbon Cross fork, but I did ride it for 2 months with an Easton EC90 all carbon road fork, that was similar to the Reynolds forks.) I ride my bikes with the same shoes, shorts, socks, orthotics, pedals, cranks, BB, seat post, saddles, stem, gloves, handlebar tape and handle bars. I use only 1 brand of tires and rotate 2-3 sets of wheels built by Dave Thomas between the bikes. They are all shallow rimmed wheel sets. I ride 6 days a week, 6-7000 miles a year. I do group rides 4 days a week where we stick to the same varied routes. The point is, I have narrowed down the only variables to be weather, material and/or manufacturer.

I have enough time on these bikes to know they all ride differently. The Strong 6/4 Reynolds rides the best of them all-- it is stiffest/most effiecient in the BB, chainstays and downtube without being harsh, yet it is the most compliant/comfortable in the seat stays for our rough roads. I would do a century, Hill TT or a crit on it without hesitation, regardless of the roads. For me, I KNOW the different materials make a difference. I don't try to convince anyone and I don't want to. If staight gauge ti is your thing, that's great. If you think the amazing ride of Reynolds 6/4 ti is a myth, that's great as well.

[pbbob]

not that there is anything wrong with that.

[MadRocketSci]

but i thought i'd make some comments and ask some questions for those who do...

seems to me if steel, al, and ti all behaved as perfectly elastic materials with differing young's moduli (measure of elasticity or stiffness), then yes, you could conceivably make three bikes that rode the same. But, everyone talks about the "damping" qualities of ti, which implies that there is a fundamental property of ti that is different than steel. Then, it'd probably be impossible to make them feel exactly the same without adding some small artificial damping (some elastomer) to the steel bike.

Take a bar of metal, and wack it. It will vibrate at its natural frequency defined by its spring constant (related to youngs modulus, geometry, etc). If there is no damping at all in the metal, and no atmosphere, it will vibrate forever. Obviously this doesn't happen. Metals have small amounts of damping so that unforced vibrations do eventually die. Based on subjectivity, it seems that Ti has more damping than steel.

Spring force = kx, where k is the spring constant and x is the deflection.
damping force = cv, where c is the damping constant and v is the velocity of the deflection.

Carbon fiber has high k (very stiff) and much larger c than metal. This gives the dead, damped feeling that is pretty much unavoidable (calfee people might argue this one).

not an expert on this so someone correct me if i'm wrong.

I do agree that the shapes and geometries matter a lot. The material differences in metal probably make up the last 5%.

[Climb01742]

93--
very interesting. i also owned an ottrott. and my IF CJ ti rides, for me, far better than my ottrott. i'd describe my CJ as you did your strong--very efficient yet without a trace of harshness.

which leads me to a personal theory...ottrotts have been built with carbon that's too stiff. my CJ is supple in a way that my ottrott never was. from your description, i'm geussing your strong is more supple than your ottrott.

serotta is adding an even lighter "softer" carbon tubing option. telling i think. i think someday, the ottrott will nail it for all kinds of riders, in all sizes. but right now, IMO, ti frames are better at nailing the efficient/supple/smooth trifecta. this isn't meant as a criticism of the ottrott, more of a realization that it is a work in progress, searching for the right combo for more riders, of more sizes, and more riding styles.

[jeffg]

repeat after the doc:

geometry and the shape of the tubes has a greater effect than the frame material

its not the raw properties of the material. its what the builder does with it (a fina rides more smoothly than the doc's old team bike made of harsh, triangular zona steel)

a "state of the art" consumer bike...rides smoothly, responds to pedal input, handles well, is reasonably light (but if you're a consumer, do you really give a **** about weight?)...sounds like a *steel* bike made by a cat who can use those tubes to make it ride however you want...like mssrs. kirk, sachs, moulton, etc..

you can make a steel bike that has the "ride qualities" of ti (but ride a vortex, a legend, and an alta, and you'll start wondering what "ride qualities of ti" are, since each bike is very different)...the corrosion and weight arguments are non-issues...

ti is a flippin yuppie wallet bullcrap issue...you want to race, ride al or crbn...you want a nice bike, ride steel...you want to piss and moan about weld quality, ride ti


gettin fiesty,

doof

I agree about the geometry bit; however, give Ti a bit more credit. Is it expensive? Yes, but many carbon frames cost even more than a Legend, so that's a non-issue. As far as performance, a properly built Ti bike can be efficient, comfortable, and bullet proof. I just threw mine in a case, flew to CA, and rode a DC on it. My time: faster than I was last year a 2.2 lb carbon frame, and I would not put the carbon frame through the cross-country flight. Also, the feel of my Ti frame is just sublime. AL? Not for 200 miles, thank you very much. The fact is, none of these frames are state of the art. Not AL, not Ti, not Carbon, not steel, or any hodge-podge thereof. Different bikes for different purposes, that's all.

[M_A_Martin]

The Doof: You, the doctor, and the mouse DO want a terraplane. I'm more impressed with the versatility of the frame and the sweet steel ride every time I take mine out for a little adversity (it rides well on normal rides too!)

The Dave: I thought you didn't have room in your garage for a third person?

[JohnS]

I knew that my Serotta was a once-in-a-lifetime purchase. I was originally leaning towards the Atlanta but then it was discontinued. I thought about the CIII but at that time thought of it more as an updated Classique(?). So since a Concours was sort of a ti Atlanta, I bought it. Also, I'm lazy and I fret about paint chips and scrapes. I don't have to worry about it.

[93legendti]

93--
very interesting. i also owned an ottrott. and my IF CJ ti rides, for me, far better than my ottrott. i'd describe my CJ as you did your strong--very efficient yet without a trace of harshness.

which leads me to a personal theory...ottrotts have been built with carbon that's too stiff. my CJ is supple in a way that my ottrott never was. from your description, i'm geussing your strong is more supple than your ottrott.

serotta is adding an even lighter "softer" carbon tubing option. telling i think. i think someday, the ottrott will nail it for all kinds of riders, in all sizes. but right now, IMO, ti frames are better at nailing the efficient/supple/smooth trifecta. this isn't meant as a criticism of the ottrott, more of a realization that it is a work in progress, searching for the right combo for more riders, of more sizes, and more riding styles.

I don't have anough rides on the Ottrott yet to determine if it is too stiff. The last couple of rides felt that way. It is efficient, but I haven't experienced the total "dream ride" yet that was advertised.
I ride a 52 and the carbon was tuned for an under 150 lb. rider and I weigh 150-160 lbs. I have a Trek 5200 OCLV and it rides as well as my 93 Legend.

Is your IF CJ 6/4 Reynolds Ti?

[Climb01742]

93--i don't know what ti IF used. all the discussions were about desired ride characteristics. i totally left the executional details to matt and the folks at IF.

i weigh 155. i'm just not convinced they've got the ottrott figured out for riders our size and smaller. serottas are great for big riders. folks our size, well, i kinda feel the jury is still out. but damn, i'll willing to be convinced otherwise.

[ericmurphy]

Although I've ridden about 27,000 miles in the past 14 years (I guess if you do the math the average isn't so hot, but almost half of those miles are in the past three years), I've really only ridden three bikes: a cheap steel Fuji, a carbon/aluminum Trek, and my Legend. Nevertheless...

Regardless of whether ti is a "yuppy wallet bullcrap issue," I simply cannot believe the magical smoothness of the Legend. It's not like you can't feel the road texture; you must assuredly can. But harsh pavement simply doesn't bother me on my Legend.

This will probably make me sound like a complete junkie, but maybe ti is like morphine (the drug, not the band). You know the pain's out there, but it doesn't bother you.

I still think "magical" is the best way to describe the feel of titanium.

[weisan]

After riding the Atlanta for a couple of long rides, I can safely say that I still prefer the Legend. It seems to be more responsive and propel forward quicker upon pedal pressures, whereas the Atlanta appears sluggish.

Climb's comments on the Serottas seems made more for the bigger riders rings some truth in me. I am relatively light (152 Ibs). I started off not liking the Legend that much. I find myself constantly fighting against it. Not sure what happened and when, over the course of recent months, I am beginning to adapt better to the Ti bike and actually feeling for the first time that it is made suited for me, even though I bought it used and non-custom. I don't know how to explain this except maybe pointing it to the physical changes in my body and riding style. I got stronger, my weight stays about the same, I find myself using the big chain ring more often and opting higher gears for the usual local hills. It feels almost like the Legend and I have found our equilibrium between suppleness and stiffness. That's my uneducated guess.

weisan

[93legendti]

My '93 Legend rides great. I wonder if they made it stiffer over the years. When I had Carl Strong build my Custom Reynolds 6/4 DB Ti bike, I said I wanted it to ride as good, if not better, than my Legend, and be lighter. He said it would ride better and be lighter. He was right.

[vaxn8r]

My time: faster than I was last year a 2.2 lb carbon frame, and I would not put the carbon frame through the cross-country flight. Also, the feel of my Ti frame is just sublime. AL? Not for 200 miles, thank you very much. The fact is, none of these frames are state of the art. Not AL, not Ti, not Carbon, not steel, or any hodge-podge thereof. Different bikes for different purposes, that's all.

I've been riding carbon for 6 years and have flown it across country many times. I think you worry too much about it. CF is pretty tough. I was in a bike shop that had an OCLV tube. The sales guy was demonstrating it's strength by slamming the tube against a metal countertop....hard! No problemo. I did it myself just to see. It really was impressive. Not saying you don't see crack ups....just saying if done right it holds up pretty well.

Also, the AL bikes of today are a far cry from those of yesteryear. AL can be harsh, most AL bikes in the past were harsh. Not so today. I find it interesting that Cannondale, in their new six13 chose to keep the rear triangle all aluminum and NOT go with the current trend with a CF rear triangle. Why? Because their rear triangle with beefy stays and shaped seat stays is at once very efficient and compliant. Anyway, my CAAD7 is way more comfy on long rides than my Atlanta (same wheels/seat/seatpost).

[Sandy]

Vanilla, chocolate, strawberry,..... Some like one flavor some like another. Some even like a mix, say half chocolate and half vanilla.


The Ice Cream Man

[Climb01742]

deep, sandy, very deep. ;)

[93legendti]

I've been riding carbon for 6 years and have flown it across country many times. I think you worry too much about it. CF is pretty tough. I was in a bike shop that had an OCLV tube. The sales guy was demonstrating it's strength by slamming the tube against a metal countertop....hard! No problemo. I did it myself just to see. It really was impressive. Not saying you don't see crack ups....just saying if done right it holds up pretty well.

Also, the AL bikes of today are a far cry from those of yesteryear. AL can be harsh, most AL bikes in the past were harsh. Not so today. I find it interesting that Cannondale, in their new six13 chose to keep the rear triangle all aluminum and NOT go with the current trend with a CF rear triangle. Why? Because their rear triangle with beefy stays and shaped seat stays is at once very efficient and compliant. Anyway, my CAAD7 is way more comfy on long rides than my Atlanta (same wheels/seat/seatpost).

I have travelled by plane with my Trek OCLV 2 times to Europe, once to California and once to Colorado and never had a problem. A good bike case is all it takes.

[va rider]

Well said Sandy, well said.

[weisan]

That's why I advocate the "blindfold rule" for choosing a bike. :D

weisan

[ericmurphy]

I admit it. I bought ti to impress the girls.

Hmm...still single though...

:-)

[Sandy]

Eric,

Dump the ti bike and buy a bike made from flawless diamonds, with your name and phone number on the top tube, done in exquisite rubies. Then use $1,000 bills in place of your handkerchief, when your nose is running on a ride. In a very manly way, toss the bills alongside of the road on your ride.

After doing what I suggest, call me if you have energy or time, and tell me if you have impressed the girls.

I must add one thing here. If my approach does not work, then simply give up. Your problem is much bigger than any of us could ever solve.


:) :) Matchmaker Mirman :) :)

[ericmurphy]

Eric,

Dump the ti bike and buy a bike made from flawless diamonds

The problem is, diamonds are basically carbon, right? So a diamond bike is intrinsically no sexier than, say, one of those Giant carbon frames everyone complains about.

Interesting how no one ever says, "Carbon is a girl's best friend"...

[Sandy]

1. Go up to a beautiful lady with a 1 pound piece of coal.
2. Go up to another beautiful lady with a 1 karat flawless diamond.

Let me know what happens.


:) Sparkling Stunning Sandy :)

[ericmurphy]

1. Go up to a beautiful lady with a 1 pound piece of coal.
2. Go up to another beautiful lady with a 1 karat flawless diamond.

Let me know what happens.


:) Sparkling Stunning Sandy :)

Depends on how cold she is, I guess.

Okay, that's it for off-topic noise from me on this thread. Now back to your regularly-scheduled discussion...