Not adjusting to steel/new bike

[portlandgirl]

I have recently purchased a stock Fierte Steel bike. I had the Serotta fit done and he determined a 52 short stock Fierte would fit me nicely. I inquired if I needed to save for a custom because I have had fit problems in the past. He assured me this was extremely close to the geometry of what I would require for measurements etc. I have tried to make this bike comfortable and have not yet accomplished it. I felt cramped at first. I moved the seat back to beyond the “max” recommended which helped. I mentioned that I felt too close during the fit and was told I just wasn’t used to it. The angle in my low back is more of a up then over rather than a side of a triangle. I am having knee pain now, front beneath patella to be specific. I have since gone to another fit person at the same store that is the guru onsite. She was indeed knowledgeable and moved the cleat position back as well as put on a longer stem so I could get more extension in my back (and stop pushing back on my seat). I have too much pressure on my hands now but feel so much better in drops (back). The other issue I am struggling with is an incredible amount of bounce when on a bumpy road or even slight texture. I was told I would not feel the flex of steel because I don’t weigh enough (122 lbs). I do though and it drives me nuts. I keep telling myself better to have the bounce through the bike than my body but it's annoying. I love the look and quality of my beautiful red Fierte. However, I am not excited about any aspect of riding it. I feel it does not fit me and there may be something with the rear seat stay that is too rigid or something with BB creating the bounce? Or the steel doesn’t work for my weight?

I had the pleasure of riding a titanium Lemond (friends older model) and loved it. Maybe the titanium is the reason it was so much better? Before that I road a Klein Aluminum frame with carbon fork and stay (Q Carbon?). The reach was too far and too low so had soft tissue pain. However, the frame, feel of the road, was better in comparison as was the titanium. I think the Serotta is a superior bike in materials & construction so why doesn’t it feel like it? Is it the geometry? Steel?

My latest thought is to exchange the frame (if they will allow or sell) for a custom titanium Serotta but fear spending more and not solving the problem. It seems to only be $1000 more and if it solves the issues, I will do it.

Opinions on steel vs titanium? Bounce?

[Climb01742]

the truth is, not all fitters are equally good. it's the fly in the serotta ointment. my two cents is: try to find a fitter you trust. ask around, see who has worked out well for other riders near you. it all begins with fit. find someone really good. get your position right, then test ride as many bikes as you can that can accommodate your "right" position to see whether a combination of better fit and different materials gives you what you're looking for. some people simply like the feel of one material better. but i would begin with fit. which means find someone good that you trust. it ain't easy. the hard sad truth is just because someone has a serotta certification as a fitter doesn't mean they are actually good at it. there are many very good ones and some not so much. hopefully there is someone at the shop who is better and the shop will stand behind the bike and make it right. serotta makes awesome bikes. but the process of getting there can have bumps.

maybe post where you live and see if anyone here can recommend a great local fitter.

[39cross]

I am no expert, but I think a lot of road feel has to do with the wheels/tires. I've ridden a frame that felt dead and then swapped the wheels and really enjoyed it. It may be worth looking at the problem from that angle as well.

[wasfast]

Moving the saddle back to compensate for a short top tube is a really bad idea. Start with the saddle in the position that allows knee over pedal(KOPS). If the top is too short, get a longer stem.

Many times, too much weight on your hands is from the saddle tilted down. Start with level and make very small tweaks from there.

One super easy thing is to drop the tire pressure some to tune the ride quality. Rather than 110-115psi, try 90-95 and see how it is. If you don't like it, easy to change.

[tch]

+1
+1
+1

[Dekonick]

Also give a new fit a little time - sometimes it just takes a bit before you adjust and realize how much better the new fit really is (or how bad...)

I could be wrong, and far from an expert, but if you feel 'flex' in a small steel frame at 122lbs...you must have one hell of alot of power...somehow I doubt it is the frame but it could be. Sucks that you don't love your Serotta - but a bike (no matter how nice) that doesn't fit is always going to bother you. Just make sure it is the fit that is the issue and not something else.

Good luck!

[Smiley]

Better custom wheels ( no bladed spokes ) and fatter tires would help BUT IMHO I think you wont be happy until you ride a TI frame with a Ti rear end or ST rear end. Sounds like you want to mute the road surface from the ride so nothing will do that like Ti, I own both Ti and Steel and ride either bike depending on the road conditions and how I feel. Now start with a custom fit bike and like it was said here stick with the KOP and have them adjust from there your reach. A Fierte in that frame size should be easy to trade back into your dealer. Best of luck .

[mwos]

Agree with all the comments here. BTW, when I got my custom Ottrott I felt "too stretched out" but I trusted my fitter, didn't change anything and let my body adjust to the new position. Now, exactly 1 year later, I wouldn't change a thing about the fit.

I had wheels built that were more appropriate for my weight, 105 lbs. Jeremy at Alchemy Bicycles Works in Santa Fe did them. He used a Nimble Spider rim which is designed for lightweight riders. I put 85 psi in my tires. I learned this from the guys here but that pressure is recommended by the manufacturer of my tires.

Like Smiley says your body has to adjust to the new fit. Before I got my Ottrott I had my old bike refitted. For about a month I "hated" the fit, then I realized how much better I felt on the bike.

I don't want to sway you away from steel but I didn't like it either. Ti for me was a little better but ti/carbon is wonderful.

Kathi

[Steelhead]

Before I got my custom CDA, my girlfriend paid for me to take my then current road bike down to the LBS and have a full fit done. I met with Skot at Bicycle Sport Shop in Austin TX and he spent an hour and a half+ with me taking measurements and making very minor adjustments to the bike I had at the time. I took that old aluminum Specialized Allez out the next morning and thought I was gonna cry it felt so darn good and "right". That was the day I started saving my pennies for a custom CDA and now I have it and I can't imagine riding anything else. And if I need something tweeked or looked at I just take it down there and Skot or one of his co-workers is more than happy to get me on a stand and have a look. The fit and the service is unbelievable, every time.

I'm sorry you are having a bad experience. I would imaginie that an authorized Serotta dealer would take the frame back and start over. Maybe you should consider the CDA for a custom frame..... you have already decided to go with steel, and it would save you some $$ over the ti frame you mentioned. Good Luck. :)

[wtex]

Get the geometry of that Lemond. Any custom bike should begin with the Lemond specs, if that's the bike that felt right.

[FierteTi52]

The other issue I am struggling with is an incredible amount of bounce when on a bumpy road or even slight texture. I was told I would not feel the flex of steel because I don’t weigh enough (122 lbs).
I have a 52cm Fierte Ti and the bounce you are feeling is not a result of frame materials. You are NOT flexing the steel frame.Mine has what I refer to a bit of bounce or bucking back and forth over bumps. IMHO, this is caused by the extremely short wheelbase. The bike has a short top tube, fairly short chainstays, and a 43mm raked fork. Your 52S has even a shorter top tube. My Kirk has longer chainstays, longer top tube and a 50mm fork rake. The difference is amazing. I ride 3 cross wheels on both bikes. BTW what stem length did the LBS fit you with?
Jeff

[eddief]

i'd guess at your weight you could run 75 psi in your tires and sigificantly change the road feel of your bike. how much air you got in those things?

i rode my carbon bike two days in a row. prior to the first ride i had let the bike sit in the garage for a few days and then did not top off the tires before the ride. seemed smooth and comfy on that ride. the next day i topped off the tires to about 85psi and on that ride i kept remarking to myself how harsh the ride felt.

took me 3 years and 5 bikes and lots of experimenting and a great fitter to get it right for me.

[pdxmech13]

define bounce

[BarryG]

coupla comments:

It would help to quote tire size and rider weight before throwing PSI values on the table.

There are other schools of thought than KOPS, and have had good results myself with Peter White's contrarian advice (http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/fitting.htm) on using fore-aft saddle position to seek balance in your position on the bike.

[weiwentg]

I have recently purchased a stock Fierte Steel bike. I had the Serotta fit done and he determined a 52 short stock Fierte would fit me nicely. I inquired if I needed to save for a custom because I have had fit problems in the past. He assured me this was extremely close to the geometry of what I would require for measurements etc. I have tried to make this bike comfortable and have not yet accomplished it. I felt cramped at first. I moved the seat back to beyond the “max” recommended which helped. I mentioned that I felt too close during the fit and was told I just wasn’t used to it. The angle in my low back is more of a up then over rather than a side of a triangle. I am having knee pain now, front beneath patella to be specific. I have since gone to another fit person at the same store that is the guru onsite. She was indeed knowledgeable and moved the cleat position back as well as put on a longer stem so I could get more extension in my back (and stop pushing back on my seat). I have too much pressure on my hands now but feel so much better in drops (back). The other issue I am struggling with is an incredible amount of bounce when on a bumpy road or even slight texture. I was told I would not feel the flex of steel because I don’t weigh enough (122 lbs). I do though and it drives me nuts. I keep telling myself better to have the bounce through the bike than my body but it's annoying. I love the look and quality of my beautiful red Fierte. However, I am not excited about any aspect of riding it. I feel it does not fit me and there may be something with the rear seat stay that is too rigid or something with BB creating the bounce? Or the steel doesn’t work for my weight?

I had the pleasure of riding a titanium Lemond (friends older model) and loved it. Maybe the titanium is the reason it was so much better? Before that I road a Klein Aluminum frame with carbon fork and stay (Q Carbon?). The reach was too far and too low so had soft tissue pain. However, the frame, feel of the road, was better in comparison as was the titanium. I think the Serotta is a superior bike in materials & construction so why doesn’t it feel like it? Is it the geometry? Steel?

My latest thought is to exchange the frame (if they will allow or sell) for a custom titanium Serotta but fear spending more and not solving the problem. It seems to only be $1000 more and if it solves the issues, I will do it.

Opinions on steel vs titanium? Bounce?

did you move your saddle back because you felt that your knees weren't over the pedal spindle, or did you do so to put yourself in a more stretched-out position? the latter is the wrong thing to do. the only reason to move the saddle is to change your knee vs pedal position. once you get that down, then you change the stem length and maybe handlebar reach. your current knee pain could be because you pushed the saddle back.

as another poster said, not all fitters are equal ... you should get a second opinion. people on a forum might say, just suck it up and get used to it, but we haven't seen you on a bike. someone skilled in bike fitting would be able to tell you if anything's wrong... it could be that your old fitter was a bit too wedded to what his training said. (or not.) bottom line: you need to see someone in person. if you belong to a club, ask if they know anyone.

lastly, I'm a 125lb guy. I have a decent sprint. I cannot seriously flex any of my bikes, steel, ti, or alu. I don't mean to be mean, but if you really are flexing the bike (e.g. you cause the chain to rub the derailleur or the wheels to hit the brake pads), then you should be a pro cyclist, and then your team would get a really good bike fitter.

[Kevan]

maybe borrow it for your next fitting. That way the fitter might better understand what works for you. I'm not saying he'll necessarily agree with you, but at least it's a starting point in the conversation.

[portlandgirl]

pdxmech13, "Bounce" to me is throwing me around with some side to side over bumps. When riding with others they are not "bouncing" nearly as much over same pavement. It is similar to when one has too much air in the tires. I lowered the PSI from 110 to 100, my Continental 4000 grand prix tires say 120. I used to run 110 to 120 on my old tires but did have custom lighter wheels which may have made a difference according to another post. Currently have Easton Vista SL wheels.

The post from fierteti52 was especially interesting. This bike does have an incredibly short wheel base. I don't like the toe overlap and was surprised by it a couple of times when ran into my wheel with my toe. When I asked about it, they said that is normal with an aggressive road bike with a short top tube. It would've been nice had it been explained to me prior so I could've decided if I wanted that geometry but I accepted that it would be that way even if custom due to my reach needs. I think I will go test a regular 52 today to see if that is better with bounce and feel in general.

Kathi, mwos. I am interested in the wheels being different for a lighter weight rider. Are your custom wheels lighter or heavier or just different material to compensate for your weight? Also, perhaps Ti/Carbon is the way to go. I love the FierteIT or Nove. My thought was if I got the IT ($4100 for stock built) might as well get custom ($5500 built) because of price range jump. Since i was told stock Fierte was so close to my specs went with that. I was trying to be patient even though felt wrong due to the adjustment period as others mentioned.

Steelhead, I am frustrated that the CDA frame is only $500 more. When asked about custom was told much more, $2000, but that may have been for Titanium. I kept asking if I should just wait and get custom due to my unique measurements. Waiting, in reference to time to build and saving what I thought was $5000. At that time, being told the frame was just another $500 for custom steel would've been good info to know. The Fierte was $2800, was willing to spend $3500. Ugh! Could've gotten custom within my current price range.

Thank you all for your comments. They have been enormously helpful.

[Dekonick]

Better custom wheels ( no bladed spokes ) and fatter tires would help BUT IMHO I think you wont be happy until you ride a TI frame with a Ti rear end or ST rear end. Sounds like you want to mute the road surface from the ride so nothing will do that like Ti, I own both Ti and Steel and ride either bike depending on the road conditions and how I feel. Now start with a custom fit bike and like it was said here stick with the KOP and have them adjust from there your reach. A Fierte in that frame size should be easy to trade back into your dealer. Best of luck .

Yeah - true but your Ti bike is DKS...

[portlandgirl]

coupla comments:

It would help to quote tire size and rider weight before throwing PSI values on the table.

There are other schools of thought than KOPS, and have had good results myself with Peter White's contrarian advice (http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/fitting.htm) on using fore-aft saddle position to seek balance in your position on the bike.

I have read the Peter White article and will re-read several times. It makes more sense than the many fit systems out there. Thank you for sharing it. I want to share with my bike shop and others in town. The fitters will likely take offense but may secretly read it when alone. That will have accomplished something I think.

[portlandgirl]

Yeah - true but your Ti bike is DKS...

DKS??

[portlandgirl]

did you move your saddle back because you felt that your knees weren't over the pedal spindle, or did you do so to put yourself in a more stretched-out position? the latter is the wrong thing to do. the only reason to move the saddle is to change your knee vs pedal position. once you get that down, then you change the stem length and maybe handlebar reach. your current knee pain could be because you pushed the saddle back.

as another poster said, not all fitters are equal ... you should get a second opinion. people on a forum might say, just suck it up and get used to it, but we haven't seen you on a bike. someone skilled in bike fitting would be able to tell you if anything's wrong... it could be that your old fitter was a bit too wedded to what his training said. (or not.) bottom line: you need to see someone in person. if you belong to a club, ask if they know anyone.

lastly, I'm a 125lb guy. I have a decent sprint. I cannot seriously flex any of my bikes, steel, ti, or alu. I don't mean to be mean, but if you really are flexing the bike (e.g. you cause the chain to rub the derailleur or the wheels to hit the brake pads), then you should be a pro cyclist, and then your team would get a really good bike fitter.


I understand now that I am not flexing the steel but none the less hate the bouncing. I will try a bike with longer top tube hence wider wheel base on the same roads today or tomorrow. I have already lowered the PSI but may do again. However, this seems ridiculous because ran the same or higher PSI in past but did have different wheels. Never felt this bounce sensation except once when LBS put Armadillo tire on back only. Hated that, created same bounce, removed. These tires are soft. Thanks for your input. I have moved on to a second fitter as you suggested. I have confidence in her but the fit is still not right and trying to understand and get rid of the bounce. Work in progress but the comments have helped so much.

[portlandgirl]

[QUOTE=weiwentg]did you move your saddle back because you felt that your knees weren't over the pedal spindle, or did you do so to put yourself in a more stretched-out position? the latter is the wrong thing to do. the only reason to move the saddle is to change your knee vs pedal position. once you get that down, then you change the stem length and maybe handlebar reach. your current knee pain could be because you pushed the saddle back.

Moved saddle back because felt too close and over the spindle. I like to be back further for the pedal stroke to feel right and perhaps it's my long femurs. However, I think it is probably too far back. The new fitter said it's beyond the recommended KOPS but didn't want to change that too for now. We changed the cleat position and added longer stem, enough she thought at one time. Since I have pain in front below patella it is likely too far back which is equivalent to moving up from what I understand. Originally I may have felt I needed to go back because the handlebars were too close. As you said wrong reason. Now that I have longer stem probably need to move saddle closer. Thanks.

[djg]

+ 9?

I'm not an expert fitter and certainly won't pretend to fit you over the internet in any case, but several things sound off to me. First, although many people can adjust to slightly different saddle positions, slamming the saddle way back to fix reach to the bars sounds deeply off in several ways. It's generally a good idea to make substantial changes in smaller increments -- big sudden adjustments can cause problems even if (as this change may not) they make sense in some longer run. Also, although problems up front may well mean too much weight on the hands, the first basic point of moving the saddle relative to the cranks is typically to get the hips, knees, and feet right for your pedaling, not just to play with reach to the bars.

Second, although several things might factor in excessive "bounce" as you ride, it doesn't seem right that it's the materials or rear triangle construction of the fierte. Apart from the fact that you've got reasonably long chain stays (for a road bike, in your size), this seems more likely to do (a) with how they have you sitting on the bike and (b) wheel/tire/tire pressure choice. Obviously, experimenting a bit with tire pressure is the easiest and least expensive thing you can play with, but there's no way I can predict whether this, by itself, will make a significant difference for you.

I'm not sure how to solve your problem. On the one hand, you have an issue with your LBS. You paid them a bunch of money -- not just for a piece of equipment, but for a piece of equipment suitable for you -- and you've had headaches and serious discomfort in return. They ought to be able to help you with this and, within reason, they ought to help you solve your problems. OTOH, at some point -- maybe now, maybe soon -- it might really pay to consult somebody else about your setup. I wouldn't just reach for a random second opinion -- I'd do a little due diligence searching out a well-recommended second opinion (ideally, under circumstances that separate the question of fit from the interest in selling you something new).

[portlandgirl]

+ 9?

I'm not an expert fitter and certainly won't pretend to fit you over the internet in any case, but several things sound off to me. First, although many people can adjust to slightly different saddle positions, slamming the saddle way back to fix reach to the bars sounds deeply off in several ways. It's generally a good idea to make substantial changes in smaller increments -- big sudden adjustments can cause problems even if (as this change may not) they make sense in some longer run. Also, although problems up front may well mean too much weight on the hands, the first basic point of moving the saddle relative to the cranks is typically to get the hips, knees, and feet right for your pedaling, not just to play with reach to the bars.

Second, although several things might factor in excessive "bounce" as you ride, it doesn't seem right that it's the materials or rear triangle construction of the fierte. Apart from the fact that you've got reasonably long chain stays (for a road bike, in your size), this seems more likely to do (a) with how they have you sitting on the bike and (b) wheel/tire/tire pressure choice. Obviously, experimenting a bit with tire pressure is the easiest and least expensive thing you can play with, but there's no way I can predict whether this, by itself, will make a significant difference for you.

I'm not sure how to solve your problem. On the one hand, you have an issue with your LBS. You paid them a bunch of money -- not just for a piece of equipment, but for a piece of equipment suitable for you -- and you've had headaches and serious discomfort in return. They ought to be able to help you with this and, within reason, they ought to help you solve your problems. OTOH, at some point -- maybe now, maybe soon -- it might really pay to consult somebody else about your setup. I wouldn't just reach for a random second opinion -- I'd do a little due diligence searching out a well-recommended second opinion (ideally, under circumstances that separate the question of fit from the interest in selling you something new).

thanks for the response. Initially I moved the saddle back for the pedaling. I like to be back of the spindle more than most. I am told it is due to my longer femur in relation to lower leg. I moved the saddle back 1 full cm after trying it closer where they recommended. I have tried two saddles since so hard to say the distance from original set up. I also tried not to change too much at one time. I am on to the 2nd fitter at the LBS but in between the two I brought it to the guy who started the Serotta fit program and works for himself. He did a few checks to analyze the fit and said it does fit just need new saddle to offer stability of my pelvis. He said that is why I am naturally pushing back and hanging off the saddle, searching for stability. I have since tried another saddle. My sit bones are pressing hard on the edge of the very end of the seat causing red marks on my butt especially on the right. I still hold true to the bike being too small, hence feeling like need more space with saddle back and stem longer. When mentioned that to new fitter at LBS she said I am not doing anything major that compromises the integrity of fit or riding dynamics. All are "normal" adjustments. I don't know that I agree but am still working to resolve the issues ie haven't given up on this bike. The man who started the fit program at Serotta is considered the best in town. I have since gotten another contact but wanted to work with this new person at the LBS first who is the lead person there.

This forum has opened my eyes to the idea it may be wheel base or wheels themselved. I have tried lowering tire pressure to 100 but will do again.

[Smiley]

As you say the man that started the fit program at Serotta gives away who your talking about. Anyway when you were sold a 52S Fierte that is one very short TT at 50.5 cm versus a standard 52 cm frame with a 52.5 TT . No wonder you have TCO and if its excessive like greater the 1.5 cm it would be a NO GO for me. My wife rides a 51.5 TT and I don't like bikes with smaller the 51 TT , cause I like to add to the wheel base using a longish TT. What stem and handle bar reach do they have you on, and lastly if this frame was in their stock just tell them to credit it towards a new Ti frame custom like a La Corsa that I think will be more to your liking and NOBODY needs to air their tires above 90-95 psi. in your size and weight range.

[michael white]

two other things here bear mentioning:

one is, you shouldn't give toeclip overlap much thought. It's normal on many small bikes, and has nothing to do with anything. Some small bikes are designed to try to eliminate it, rather than handle well, and that's a terrible idea. Also, a number of experts now feel that KOPS is bs, so if you feel your seat needs to be back, I would put it back.

in the fitting process, many riders find an adjustable stem helpful in dialing it in. Ritchey and Oval have fairly inexpensive versions.

it is very possible that you can still be comfortable and very happy on the Fierte. Little things such have been mentioned, or for instance how many spacers in the headset, some minute change in seat angle, etc, can turn an ugly duckling into a swan. So, it's way too soon to think the bike doesn't fit, it's too short etc. Try to be patient.

best,
mw

btw: if you can't get a steel Fierte to ride well, uh, Houston, we might have a problem . . .

[Smiley]

"one is, you shouldn't give toeclip overlap much thought. It's normal on many small bikes, and has nothing to do with anything. Some small bikes are desiged to try to eliminate it, rather than handle well, and that's a terrible idea. Also, a number of experts now feel that KOPS is bs, so if you feel your seat needs to be back, I would put it back."

KOP is not all that BS but a very good starting point NOT all riders with long femurs and long feet should be set up with neutral KOP but will be somewhere behind the pedal spindle, I am about 1 cm behind but IF I did not know where neutral was I would never know a starting point.

TCO is something that can be minimized and thats what were taliking about. Never eliminated BUT somewhere within the design too large a TCO does not make any common sense. My rule is about 15 mm max. I have only one client that has very large feet and we broke that rule and were at 2.5 cm. But mostly we try and stay below the 1.5 cm threshold since we can on Custom frames change HTA and fork rake to get there. Again if your dealing with TCO and are using long reach bars well that is a mistake by not going to shorter reach bars and lengthening up the TT, no stem should be shorter then 8 cm either for these small frames.

[Len J]

regarding the bouncing around.

Stock frames are made for "Middle of the bell curve" weights for each size. If you are either heavier than normal or lighter than normal, the tubing stifness is not going to be optimal for you. Since you appear to be a very light rider, this may be contributing to your problem. (One of the advantages of custom is the optimal selection of tubing for your weight and riding style.)

In addition, all other things being equal (which they are not for sure) the smaller the frame the stiffer it will be.

Couple all of this with rock hard high pressure tires on stiff wheels, and it's no wonder you are bouncing.

I wouldn't presume to give you fitting advice without seeing you on the bike.
Have you voiced your concerns to the fitter? If so, what did he say?

Len

[shaq-d]

so it seems u have 3 probs, (1) the bounce and (2) the cramped space, (3) knee pain.

as to (1): steel is stiff and will bounce a light person. titanium will be more flexy/forgiving. a longer wheelbase will also be more flexy/forgiving, as will a bike that has a non-racing geometry. you can get all this with custom, or with an entry-level bike that is not racing geometry, but more a fast-touring geometry. specialized/lemond/etc. all have bikes like this at the entry-level.

as to (2): if the space is cramped u and u r uncomfy, u either have to get used to it or change it. but make a decision on which u wanna do, and make that decision soon. cuz if u wanna change it, u need to return ur bike.

as to (3): knee pain of any kind is unacceptable and has to be fixed immediately. from what u describe, raise ur saddle...

[Ahneida Ride]

A decent frame should be decent outa box.

Hmmm. I knew within seconds my Legend was special.
We both took a little time to adjust, but I never rode in any pain
or discomfort. I knew immediately this bike was for me.

Made only minor changes (TA Crank, Brooks Saddle. Thompson Stem)
over the years.

I tweaked components, but there was NEVER any question at all about
the frame. NEVER! and I can be very picky.

If after 200 miles, you have issues, well ... there is a serious problem here.
Time to speak up .....

Listen to Smiley .... Not all Fitters are created equal.
Fitting is not just Math, else a idiot like me could do it. Fitting takes
real talent and an eye for the inexpressible. It's an art too, not just a science. I can't draw stick figures.

My LBS guru once told me secret. He agonizes over the fit and is not happy
and relived till he sees that big smile after the first ride. And he has done
tons of fittings.

Might I suggest an exchange + a custom Ti upgrade ..... The LaCorsa?

A Serotta should be the very best purchase you every made.
That's the way I feel. ;)

[Ginger]

I'll agree with everyone here...you're probably not flexing your bike.
You may be pushing it from side to side...have someone take a quick video of you on the bike riding towards them. See what it shows. It won't fix anything, but it might satisfy some curiosity.

On the "bounce"
Another thing to try:
Change your saddle.

I used to ride a Terry Butterfly, but the back of the saddle is too wide too far forward if that makes sense? My legs hit it and caused a nasty "bounce" when I was in the correct position. So I reverted to my old Concours. Currently I'm riding a fiziks Poggio . Which saddle do they have you on?

My other suggestion, if you haven't done it yet: Go to another shop with a different fitter who doesn't know you, doesn't know the other shop, doesn't know the bike. Don't tell them about your other "experience" with the other fitters. Just show up and say: "This is what I've got, this is what I don't like. Where do we go from here."
Giving them a laundry list of what went before colors the process. Sure, it shouldn't...but it does. Just let them do what they do. Don't say "no, I don't want to try that 'cause it's been done before..."
And tell them they have the freedom to move you as far as they have to because you're not "set" in this position. No need for .5mm changes.

And I wouldn't order a custom from the original fitters.

That's just me.

Oh...And Toe overlap matters on a mountain bike, but not so much on a road bike. Just what's going on when you catch the front wheel?

Good luck!

[mwos]

You said you were riding an older Klein. Do you happen to know the seat tube angle on that bike? The fierte has a sta of 74 degrees. If the Klein has a slacker sta that could account for your feeling of being to close to the spindle. I'm the opposite I have a very short femur and on a bike with a slack sta I'm constantly pulling forward to get over the pedals.

You also said you were very stretched and to low on the old bike. I wonder if your body has adapted to the old position and is causing you to feel to scrunched. On my old bike I was used to being to low, when we raised the handlebars I felt like it was wrong, my body fought it for about a month until it got used to it. Once I got used to the new position I never looked back.

When I was researching wheels I realized that wheels, like frames are made for the average male rider. The Nimble website lists a lightweight below 140 lbs. So where does a 120 or 105 lb female fit in? In addition I use 650c which can be stiffer than a 700c of the same build. Anyway, a combination of a lighter rim, the right spokes and spoke count and the way the spokes are laced can result in a less stiff wheel for a lighter rider. A wheel builder can explain the technical reasons better than I can. My wheelset weighed in at 1185 grams.

I liked the Nove but there were some issues with the rear triangle for 650c wheels. With a custom frame more flexible tubing can be used but as Kelly Bedford told me tubing can be made only so thin otherwise it will break so the thinnest tubing still may not be flexible enough for someone of my weight so I chose the carbon/ti combination. It gives me the stiffness of ti with the dampening properties of carbon.

And yes, small frames are going to be stiffer. I had an early Cannondale aluminum compact (WSD) that beat me to death. I then went to carbon and when I demoed the steele Fierte it felt much like my old aluminum frame. The shop suggested it was the wheels.

Kathi

[RPS]

Opinions on steel vs titanium? Bounce?Do you have a picture of your bike that you can post? Maybe that would help. :)

[Dekonick]

DKS = "Dave Kirk Suspension" - a special, now extinct option on some older Legend and Hors Categorie Serotta's - has been replaced by carbon. :crap:

Smiley KNOWS what he is talking about. :beer:

Good luck!

[djg]

Just a couple of follow-ups. First, knee pain suggests that something (at least) is wrong at or below the saddle. It may be an overly quick adjustment of saddle height or setback, or it may be the wrong saddle position, or it may be cleat position (or some combination). If you can get the pain to go away first (rest, ice, and maybe meds), you ought to be able to work with somebody to find a saddle and/or pedal/shoe setup that helps the knee pain, independent of the question whether your bike is really too small. As a general matter, I'd be respectful of what seem to be minor injuries, especially around the knees -- it's nice to think that a good fit session might make everything feel great right away, and I know it stinks to take time away from the bike this time of year, but if something is inflamed or irritated, it's possible that nothing will feel great initially, and that overdoing it will just exacerbate problems.

Second, if you're searching for a good reach and drop in front, you might try something like the Look ergostem, which allows substantial adjustment in both vertical and horizontal planes. Again, even if your current frame is too small by a couple of centimeters or more (for handling purposes), you ought to be able to find a linear reach, and drop, that works for you, before buying another bike. In short, even if the current frame is 2 or 3 centimeters too small overall, or along the top tube, for great handling and comfort, somebody ought to be able to juggle things, with the right saddle, stem, bars, and pedal/shoe setup so that you can at least find three comfortable contact points. I'm not saying that the bike is too small -- I have no idea. I'm just saying that you can get help identifying comfortable contact points independent of the question whether you have the ideal (or even, within reason, an acceptable) bike.

I'm sure you have access to excellent help somewhere. If you isolate your issues, and take your time, I'll bet it all works out. Best of luck to you.

[rnhood]

You know a shoe is the right fit the moment you put it on. It may need some breaking in but, you know it's right on the first step. So it is with a bike - it should feel right the moment you step on the pedal.

My advice: Forget the confusion and hassle of trying to make bike that probably isn't the best bike for you fit and ride per your preferences. You have ridden a bike or two that felt right, so take your bike back for credit and get the one that feels right. Don't waste thousands of dollars trying to make a bike ride like one you have already test ridden.

[Fat Robert]

nobody can fit you over the stupid internet


go back to the shop and have them fix this mess -- and probably eat this bike they put you on

[thejen12]

Hi Portlandgirl,

I believe we learn from every bike we ride, especially if we haven't ridden a lot of bikes. I got a custom frame earlier this year and I was able to tell the builder everything I liked and didn't like about my previous bikes. If it's true that you can return this bike in exchange for a custom bike, you just got a great learning experience for free! :) This is valuable if you do wind up ordering a custom bike.

I have long femurs, like you, but bikes in my size always have a 74 degree or steeper seat tube. My custom bike has a 73 degree seat tube and it puts my saddle back further behind the bottom bracket and I'm so much more efficient, using all my leg muscles instead of mostly my quads. I also have a problem with toe overlap, so I specified a minimum distance from the bottom bracket to the front hub for the builder, based on my experience with prior bikes. It's hilly where I live, and some hills are so steep you must criss-cross the road to get up, and I had a bike I just couldn't do that on because of toe overlap. I wanted to make sure that didn't happen again. (Note, people who have never had a problem with this just don't understand it, but don't let them talk you out of getting the clearance you need.) I also needed a very short top tube, so putting all this together was a great challenge for the builder, but he nailed it.

My new bike is steel, and my previous bike was ti (a Litespeed Classic). I loved the smooth ride of the ti bike and was a little disappointed with the rear-end "chatter" of the new steel bike, at first, even though my new bike has carbon seat stays (but not the same type as on the Serotta bikes). I solved it, though, by putting on bigger tires and using lower pressure. I'm riding Conti GP4000s in the 25mm size with 80-85 lbs. of pressure, and I weigh about 128. Sometimes it feels like my bike is just floating down the road! Also, the steel bike has more "get up and go" than my old ti bike. I don't know if the better acceleration is due to the materials or the geometry, but the new bike has a more laid back geometry so I mentally credit the steel. I even kept my old wheels and rode them on the new bike for several hundred miles, so it's not due to a difference in wheels.

It's funny, but I was just thinking near the end of my ride today what I would change about my bike if I could. I really couldn't think of anything. Someday I think it would be neat to try the Serotta ST rear end or Kirk Terraplane, but I'm extremely happy with my custom bike as it is now. Whatever you decide to do, I hope you wind up just as happy.

Good luck!

Jenn

[mwos]

[Quote]

Before that I road a Klein Aluminum frame with carbon fork and stay (Q Carbon?). The reach was too far and too low so had soft tissue pain.



Please don't take this the wrong way but Jenn touched on it. I'm wondering how you can judge that a bike doesn't fit when you don't know what a properly fitting bike is supposed to feel like?

Like Jenn said those of us who have successful experiences with custom frames know what we are looking for and can articulate that to the fitter.

Also, unless a fitter rides with you they can't see what you are doing on the bike and it may be that you need to get used to the different geometry.

BTW, how long have you had this bike and how much have you ridden it?

Kathi

[Smiley]

"Also, unless a fitter rides with you they can't see what you are doing on the bike and it may be that you need to get used to the different geometry"

Not true , mistake that maybe was made here is fitter never saw client on her old bike.

[BoulderGeek]

Really not much to add here, other than I am 210lbs and I never run more than 100-105lbs of pressure. I'd definitely be at 90 or below with your weight.

And I never liked the ride of Conti tires.

Maybe I am just lucky, but I have never had a fit issue that couldn't be ameliorated by crank length, saddle choice, saddle height, position or stem length.

I had a Litespeed Tuscany, that I thought would be a perfect bike for me, after asking lots of questions and poring over specs. I could never make it feel good.

My stock Nove is a dream to me. One pro fit, set of carbon bars, and Terry Fly saddle, and I am in cycling nirvana. Too bad it in hanging in a friend's garage, 5100 miles from me.

I'd be thinking stock Fierte IT in non-short, were it I.

[zap]

Gee, this sounds pretty gross on so many different levels.

Listen to Fat Robert.

Regarding tires. My wife rides a steel Serotta csi with 650x20c Conti GP pumped to 120psi. Her favorite wheels are freaking stiff original Campy Shamal SL's. Weight, close to other ladies here.

She loves the ride.

[SadieKate]

Whatever zap says about his weird wife, I'm fairly small and I ride with a lot of small women who have had similar experiences. Wheels can make a huge difference. Zap's wife may like the ride on her bike, but it's all a personal choice based on you, your roads, your frame, the distances, etc.

Yes, get the bike fit properly no matter what BUT before you make any investments in a new frame go test ride wheels on that frame. The ride characteristics of your bike can changed dramatically and it will help you isolate whether it is the frame or the wheels that are causing the problem. Try to use similar tires and pressure.

I had a set of Ritchey wheels that beat the you know what out of me on a steel frame. I had a set of custom wheels built with lower profile rims, non-bladed Sapim CXRay spokes and I can now ride the bike for double metrics in supreme comfort. I also am no longer scared on high speed descents because the bike is bouncing all over the place. Before the wheelbuilder would take my money he made me go do some test rides to make sure it was the wheels and not the frame. It was an excellent exercise.

[Fixed]

if you got a serotta from a serotta shop they will make it right . it's a serotta we are taking about . imho
cheers

[Orin]

A couple of things... the old rule of thumb for front knee pain is seat height too low. I've also noticed for me that if I feel like I want to be further back, it's more a matter or wanting to be further from the pedals, another symptom of seat height too low!

So as someone else mentioned - there could be a seat height issue here.

Orin.

[zap]

Whatever zap says about his weird wife, I'm fairly small and I ride with a lot of small women who have had similar experiences. Wheels can make a huge difference. Zap's wife may like the ride on her bike, but it's all a personal choice based on you, your roads, your frame, the distances, etc.



Hmmm, well. Better word choice maybe.

In my haste I did not mention that how ones body is positioned on the bike is the biggest contributor to comfort. If the torso is relaxed and stretched out properly, the body can absorb a fair amount of road shock.

Agreed that much is a personal choice and much testing should be done so that one is comfortable with your purchase.

Anyhow, here's a picture of two very different Serotta's.

[SadieKate]

I hope you know I was joking about her preference for what I would consider a very harsh ride. But then, I'm weird in my own ways. :)

[mwos]

"Also, unless a fitter rides with you they can't see what you are doing on the bike and it may be that you need to get used to the different geometry"

Not true , mistake that maybe was made here is fitter never saw client on her old bike.

Smiley, here's what I meant by my statement. In May I went to a "Women's Night Out" at Wheatridge Cyclery. Connie Carpenter Phinney was the guest speaker. Wheatridge promoted her as a "surprise guest for beginner women cyclists".

Turns out her message holds true for all women, and maybe men, no matter how long you have been riding.

Connie prefaced this talk with "this assumes that your bike fits!"

Point #1 was to relax on the bike. She said too many women have a death grip on their handlebars, have their shoulders up to their ears and elbows locked. Connie had us sit in a riding position, put our arms out like we're on our bikes, lock our elbows and clinch our fists. We had to sit like that for 2 minutes. Then she said, "imagine riding like that for hours on end, a lot of you do." BTW, it was a very uncomfortable position.

Point #2 was to learn to ride with no hands. Her point was that the bike steers from the center, not from the handlebars. She spent quite a bit of time on this explaining how a bike wants to stay upright.

Point #3 was to strengthen core muscles but when riding think of the stomach as part of the back.

Point #4 was on descending, especially mtn passes. On long mtn passes descend from the drops and do not rise up when going over bumps,etc.

I've been riding for 27 yrs and this was the first time I have heard anyone talk about what to do with your body on the bike. So I think to myself, I do all of this, after all I have a nice bike that fits.

The first day out after this talk I played a little with riding with no hands. I couldn't take my hands completely off the handlebars, I didn't want to crash on my Ottrott, but I did get a sense of where my balance point was.

On my first descent I found out not only don't I stay in the saddle but I rise up slightly, about an inch and I move my upper body forward over the handlebars. This puts my weight over the handlebars not the center of the bike. So much for good handling on long, mtn descents. I also move forward if I have to ride over uneven surfaces like sand, gravel or when I'm tense.

I still get shoulder pain when I ride long distances or when it is very windy. When I noticed it on Ride the Rockies I quickly thought about what my shoulders were doing. Oh, they are pushed up to my ears, my elbows locked, etc. As soon as I relaxed the pain went away.

I also have "swayback" on my bike. Sometimes my saddle bothers me but as soon as I slightly tighten my core muscles my lower back flattens, my shoulders rise up slightly, I'm lighter on my handlebars, and I don't notice my saddle.

Had I not heard Connie I would have blamed my bike fit, gone to Chris and complained that my shoulders still hurt and my bike is twitchy on downhills, my saddle hurts. I wonder if he would have considered what I was "doing" while riding my bike before he readjusted something on the bike.

I don't know where these habits came from. I wonder if it was from riding bikes that didn't fit for 24 years and developed them to compensate for the poor fit.

Connie directed her talk to women sounding like they were women's problems but I wonder if men do these things as well.

Connie showed me that good fit is important but it's what I "do with my body" on the bike that is key to "comfort and handling" on the bike.

Kathi

[flydhest]

Kathi,
For the reasons you cite and others, Connie is a stupendous person, ain't she?

[RPS]

On my first descent I found out not only don't I stay in the saddle but I rise up slightly, about an inch and I move my upper body forward over the handlebars. This puts my weight over the handlebars not the center of the bike. So much for good handling on long, mtn descents. I also move forward if I have to ride over uneven surfaces like sand, gravel or when I'm tense. ....snipped.....



Connie directed her talk to women sounding like they were women's problems but I wonder if men do these things as well. ....snipped.....

KathiKathi, did you see the guy in the Tour descending while sitting on his top tube? It looked like most of his body was over the bars. I guess he was more aero that way. ;)

IMO many men do those things also. The biggest difference I've noticed between men and women is that fewer women like to ride with their hands off the bars. I've noticed this trend even with kids riding their bikes around in the neighborhood -- far more boys seem to do it than girls. Just a personal observation, not a scientific fact.

[Ti Designs]

nobody can fit you over the stupid internet

The odds of getting a good fit in person are only slightly better...

[mwos]

Kathi,
For the reasons you cite and others, Connie is a stupendous person, ain't she?

She certainly is. Wheatridge didn't annouce she was going to be the guest speaker so it was a pleasant surprise.

I met a woman from NYC on Ride the Rockies. We were talking about bike fit and I was telling her some of the things that Connie said. Apparently I sparked a memory because she asked me to describe her. I did and she said she met Connie on the subway and Connie sent her an autographed copy of her book on cycling! She also told me what a big impression Connie made on her.

Kathi

[mwos]

Kathi, did you see the guy in the Tour descending while sitting on his top tube? It looked like most of his body was over the bars. I guess he was more aero that way. ;)

IMO many men do those things also. The biggest difference I've noticed between men and women is that fewer women like to ride with their hands off the bars. I've noticed this trend even with kids riding their bikes around in the neighborhood -- far more boys seem to do it than girls. Just a personal observation, not a scientific fact.

No, I didn't but maybe I should try it. Since I have no upper body weight to worry about sitting on my tt would really get my weight centered on the bike! :banana:

Connie said that women are afraid of falling but she assured us that wouldn't happen because of the physics of the bike. But I haven't quite had the nerve to work on no hands, I guess I'm not yet a believer.

Kathi

[Fixed]

Originally Posted by Fat Robert
nobody can fit you over the stupid internet
bro we might have something here internet fitting imho
cheers

[RPS]

No, I didn't but maybe I should try it. Since I have no upper body weight to worry about sitting on my tt would really get my weight centered on the bike! :banana: ....snipped.....

KathiIt goes without saying that I was not suggesting anyone try descending while sitting on their top tube and hanging over the bars. If nothing else, it seemed quite uncomfortable -- not to mention unsafe for most of us.

As to riding hands off; I ride with only one lady who does it regularly. Most of the others keep at least one hand on the bars at all times.

[mwos]

It goes without saying that I was not suggesting anyone try descending while sitting on their top tube and hanging over the bars. If nothing else, it seemed quite uncomfortable -- not to mention unsafe for most of us.

As to riding hands off; I ride with only one lady who does it regularly. Most of the others keep at least one hand on the bars at all times.

Don't worry, the last time I fell off my bike (mtn) I broke my wrist so I don't think I'll be trying anything like that soon. When I was a kid I used to ride on the handlebars of my brothers bike, he pedaled. I remember trying to ride "no hand" but I didn't have the "slight downhill" that Connie said I needed.

Kathi

[RPS]

Don't worry, the last time I fell off my bike (mtn) I broke my wrist so I don't think I'll be trying anything like that soon. When I was a kid I used to ride on the handlebars of my brothers bike, he pedaled.

KathiWe did that as kids too, but the last time I gave a girl a ride on my handlebars she stuck her shoe in the front wheel and we flipped over hard. She was OK and I only needed a few stitches; but it was enough to discourage me from doing it again.

[mwos]

We did that as kids too, but the last time I gave a girl a ride on my handlebars she stuck her shoe in the front wheel and we flipped over hard. She was OK and I only needed a few stitches; but it was enough to discourage me from doing it again.


Our rides ended when my friend did the same thing, except she was barefoot. I don't remember how badly she was hurt but my parents said, "no more!"

Kathi

[Ray]

The biggest difference I've noticed between men and women is that fewer women like to ride with their hands off the bars. I've noticed this trend even with kids riding their bikes around in the neighborhood -- far more boys seem to do it than girls. Just a personal observation, not a scientific fact.
I think its pretty close to a scientific fact that girls/women are generally more risk averse than boys/men. There are exceptions to every rule, but that's the rule. I know a lot of very skilled female riders and I don't think ANY of them are comfortable riding with no hands on the bars. I know a lot of pretty mediocre guy riders who will have lunch and change clothes in the middle of a ride with their hands off the bars. It's something we start doing (and NOT doing) as kids. Boys quickly realize that a lot of risky seeming things aren't as difficult or as risky as they seem which makes us more comfortable taking more risks. Very few girls seem to learn that lesson as kids. I don't begin to know WHY this is the case, but I'm quite sure it is.

-Ray

[RPS]

Boys quickly realize that a lot of risky seeming things aren't as difficult or as risky as they seem which makes us more comfortable taking more risks. Very few girls seem to learn that lesson as kids. I don't begin to know WHY this is the case, but I'm quite sure it is.

-RayYeah Ray, but have you also noticed how girls/women have fewer scars. Maybe they are just brighter -- they learn what not to do before they get hurt. :)

[Fat Robert]

if women were truly risk averse:

there would be fewer bar sluts.

just sayin....

[portlandgirl]

[Quote]

Before that I road a Klein Aluminum frame with carbon fork and stay (Q Carbon?). The reach was too far and too low so had soft tissue pain.

A) Please don't take this the wrong way but Jenn touched on it. I'm wondering how you can judge that a bike doesn't fit when you don't know what a properly fitting bike is supposed to feel like?

B)Like Jenn said those of us who have successful experiences with custom frames know what we are looking for and can articulate that to the fitter.


C)Also, unless a fitter rides with you they can't see what you are doing on the bike and it may be that you need to get used to the different geometry.


D)BTW, how long have you had this bike and how much have you ridden it?


Kathi

A) I rode the friend's Titanium Lemond all last summer. It was near perfect. It was how I made sure that a shorter top tube would work. However, the fitter went to the extreme with that thought. I should've brought in the Lemond for him to see me on. So yes, I have experienced the right size or extremely close. Plus, the reason I'm in this mess is because of that very thought that I just wasn't used to having the correct fit so kept trying. The people at the LBS convinced me further even though I complained of my butt hanging off the saddle and feeling scrunched.

B) I was very specific to the fitter but not experienced with custom. Just picked up a lot from my struggles in the past and being fitted by many including a frame builder in San Diego. Conclusion was that there was no way to get the Klein to fit but I learned exactly why.


C)I agreed with another thread that stated that the fit isn't complete without a ride along. The trainer is not the real world and I am especially uncomfortable on one. I have given the geometry 2 months. This discussion group was a last resort looking for answers and I have had the most progress here. My goal was not to get fitted via internet but ask those familiar with Serotta about the different materials, namely steel vs titanium as well as the bounce issue. Very good info so far.

D)2 months. Admittedly I have not been riding as much as I normally would because of the struggles. It is more irritating than enjoyable plus the pain in the knees and butt since I am the very edge of the saddle (with stitching-ouch). Went to a longer saddle yesterday, Arione. Probably only been riding 30-60 miles a week. I was biking much more in the recent past and was looking forward to getting back to 100-130 miles a week with my new bike.

[Ginger]

Yeah Ray, but have you also noticed how girls/women have fewer scars.


You just hang around with the wrong women.


If women were *truly* risk adverse, there would be fewer married men.

Just say'n

[hansolo758]

You just hang around with the wrong women.


If women were *truly* risk adverse, there would be fewer married men.

Just say'n


OUCH!

[Ahneida Ride]

If women were *truly* risk adverse, there would be fewer married men.


I'm very risk adverse .... also very ugly ..... ;)

[Ginger]

I'm very risk adverse .... also very ugly ..... ;)
Oh c'mon Ray, I have pictures. You're not *that* ugly.

:p


Of course, I have lots of scars, but I'm very single..
Perhaps I'm one of a kind?

[RPS]

You just hang around with the wrong women.


If women were *truly* risk adverse, there would be fewer married men.

Just say'nMy wife is definetely a risk taker -- more so than I.

Next time she and I go for a tandem ride maybe I should lay it over to see if a few fresh scars improve our marriage. :rolleyes:

[Ginger]

My wife is definetely a risk taker -- more so than I.

Next time she and I go for a tandem ride maybe I should lay it over to see if a few fresh scars improve our marriage. :rolleyes:

You go ahead and take that risk and let us know how that all works out for y'all, K?

[cmg]

If your able to position the saddle to give the knees the comfortable KOPS or slightly behind it and there is still room to move on the saddle rails then you should be able to make this bike fit. Read the colorado cyclist fit http://www.coloradocyclist.com/bikefit/ particularly "D" once your knees are in the right place you can then place the stem. Sounds like your going to have to experient with stem lenght. if you at first had a 100mm try a 120mm set the saddle first for your knees comfort then don't adjust the saddle, only move the handlebars.

[mwos]

[QUOTE=mwos]

A) I rode the friend's Titanium Lemond all last summer. It was near perfect. It was how I made sure that a shorter top tube would work. However, the fitter went to the extreme with that thought. I should've brought in the Lemond for him to see me on. So yes, I have experienced the right size or extremely close. Plus, the reason I'm in this mess is because of that very thought that I just wasn't used to having the correct fit so kept trying. The people at the LBS convinced me further even though I complained of my butt hanging off the saddle and feeling scrunched.

B) I was very specific to the fitter but not experienced with custom. Just picked up a lot from my struggles in the past and being fitted by many including a frame builder in San Diego. Conclusion was that there was no way to get the Klein to fit but I learned exactly why.


C)I agreed with another thread that stated that the fit isn't complete without a ride along. The trainer is not the real world and I am especially uncomfortable on one. I have given the geometry 2 months. This discussion group was a last resort looking for answers and I have had the most progress here. My goal was not to get fitted via internet but ask those familiar with Serotta about the different materials, namely steel vs titanium as well as the bounce issue. Very good info so far.

D)2 months. Admittedly I have not been riding as much as I normally would because of the struggles. It is more irritating than enjoyable plus the pain in the knees and butt since I am the very edge of the saddle (with stitching-ouch). Went to a longer saddle yesterday, Arione. Probably only been riding 30-60 miles a week. I was biking much more in the recent past and was looking forward to getting back to 100-130 miles a week with my new bike.

I don't know what to tell you about your bike. Did you increase your mileage significantly or start doing a lot of hill climbing? That will set my knees off.
When I made the huge changes in my old bike it took about a month to get used to them but I was putting about 100-150 miles a week.

One thing I've noticed about my Ottrott. When I first got it I tried to handle it like my old bike that did not handle well and I didn't relax into the handling. I realized the other day, 1 year later and 3,000 miles that I've gotten used to how it handled, that I'm now handling the bike to its potential.

My first experience with a bike that really fit was my mtn bike, not a Serotta. I remember how much the saddle hurt in places I wasn't used to. I used the same model and brand saddle on my road bike. But I loved the power I had on the bike, the fact that I didn't move all over the place to feel comfortable and then took my old road bike to a Serotta fitter for a refit.

What if they raise your handlebars? I have an old mtn bike that had a stem that was to long. When they shortened the stem I felt like I was falling off the back of the bike. I also took that bike to the Serotta fitter in Cincy and my handlebars were to low so we raised them. I no longer felt like I was "falling off the back of the saddle".

Do you know how the geometry of the Lemond compares with the Fierte?

I absolutely love my Ottrott, for the fit and feel of it. When I decided to go custom I had put 15,000 miles on my old bike so I knew my refit was right. I guess that's why things worked out so well for me because my fitter could see what was "right" about my old bike and build me a bike based on what I knew worked.

Andy Pruitt says that there is a "fit window" and most systems will get you within 2cm of that window. So he recommends that you keep working on getting the fit right. BTW, "Andy Pruitt's Complete Medical Guide for Cyclists" is a handy resource to have on hand.

Do you use clipless pedals and if so which ones? I have chondromalacia in both knees and my ortho is adamant that I use Speedplay pedals.

How long are your rides on this bike? When I got my Ottrott, even though I had over 2,000 miles of riding on my old bike, my fitter told me to "take it easy for a while. So I kept my mileage to 20 or so miles per ride for a few weeks. When I refit my old bike my first ride was 60 miles and all other rides were in the 30-70 mile range. Boy did I suffer. I think thats why it took me so long to adapt to it, I was expecting my body to change too quickly.

I hope this helps and keep asking questions. This forum is the reason why I bought a Serotta. There's a lot of good information here.

Kathi

[YO!!!]

Andy Pruitt says that there is a "fit window" and most systems will get you within 2cm of that window.

I'd be more inclined to call 2cm a barn door and not a window...just sayin'

[Ginger]

D)2 months. Admittedly I have not been riding as much as I normally would because of the struggles. It is more irritating than enjoyable plus the pain in the knees and butt since I am the very edge of the saddle (with stitching-ouch). Went to a longer saddle yesterday, Arione. Probably only been riding 30-60 miles a week.

You've given the bike two months of riding 30 miles a week So that's 240 miles. That is long enough to say: Yeah, I need an adjustment 'cause my knees aren't right/I want a different saddle...but that has little to do with the geo of the stock bike...
(....if you're only riding 30-60 miles a week, odds are your butt's gonna hurt no matter what you do to how you're sitting on it...just say'n. But you used to ride, you know that.)

Have you taken the bike to a different fitter? (I don't care if it's a Serotta fit system or not...)

Oh, my Bianchi EV2 used to stutter across pavement on continental tires. I ran 110/120lbs. It's scary. Switched tires and let some air out. I run Michilin Carbons at 95 and I was much happier.

Good luck with your bike!

[shaq-d]

[QUOTE=portlandgirlD)2 months. Admittedly I have not been riding as much as I normally would because of the struggles. It is more irritating than enjoyable plus the pain in the knees and butt since I am the very edge of the saddle (with stitching-ouch). Went to a longer saddle yesterday, Arione. Probably only been riding 30-60 miles a week. I was biking much more in the recent past and was looking forward to getting back to 100-130 miles a week with my new bike.[/QUOTE]

hey.. we've given u the advice to raise ur saddle to fix the knee pain issue. have u tried that yet?

sd

[Ray]

You just hang around with the wrong women.


If women were *truly* risk adverse, there would be fewer married men.

Just say'n
I think what I meant was risk averse in terms of stuff that will cause immediate physical pain if something goes wrong. Like riding with no hands. When it comes to putting themselves in positions that WILL lead to emotional pain, women are specialists! :crap: I think its almost a requirement of the gender. I feel bad for my wife and worry for my daughters, but I see soooo many women taking on everyone else's problems. They don't solve them, they just get to suffer along. I don't know many men who do that. I make a point not to. I got enough of my own without taking on everyone else's.

-Ray

[sspielman]

I'm very risk adverse .... also very ugly ..... ;)

Hey, it works for Lyle Lovatt...and Michael Rasmussen*

*Included for cycling-related content

[sspielman]

I think what I meant was risk averse in terms of stuff that will cause immediate physical pain if something goes wrong. Like riding with no hands. When it comes to putting themselves in positions that WILL lead to emotional pain, women are specialists! :crap: I think its almost a requirement of the gender. I feel bad for my wife and worry for my daughters, but I see soooo many women taking on everyone else's problems. They don't solve them, they just get to suffer along. I don't know many men who do that. I make a point not to. I got enough of my own without taking on everyone else's.

-Ray

I wish I had a nickel for every woman I have seen who got involved with the biggest loser that she could find...so that she could "change him"...You can't help but wonder where Laura Bush would be today were it not for her bad decisions....

[Ginger]

I think what I meant was risk averse in terms of stuff that will cause immediate physical pain if something goes wrong. Like riding with no hands. When it comes to putting themselves in positions that WILL lead to emotional pain, women are specialists! :crap: I think its almost a requirement of the gender. I feel bad for my wife and worry for my daughters, but I see soooo many women taking on everyone else's problems. They don't solve them, they just get to suffer along. I don't know many men who do that. I make a point not to. I got enough of my own without taking on everyone else's.

-Ray


Hmmmm....It's the broad categorization of female humans that bothers me. It's like saying that all men are inconsiderate cads. They aren't. Some are idiots, Right? You've got to agree with me 'cause you're a guy and you would know. *

(But I still can't ride no-handed...no matter how often I try...I'm getting better at track stands if I don't know I'm doing them...)

[RPS]

Hmmmm....It's the broad categorization of female humans that bothers me. It's like saying that all men are inconsiderate cads. They aren't. Some are idiots, Right? You've got to agree with me 'cause you're a guy and you would know. *

(But I still can't ride no-handed...no matter how often I try...I'm getting better at track stands if I don't know I'm doing them...)Does it bother you when scientists categorize/generalize regarding the behavior of "non-human" females versus their male counterparts? We may be a little smarter, but are we really that different than all other species?

As to riding hands off, some bikes are more difficult compared to others. Try a couple of different ones to see if one is easier to control. Also, most riders learn when very young on bikes that are very easy and without clipless pedals.

[Ray]

Hmmmm....It's the broad categorization of female humans that bothers me. It's like saying that all men are inconsiderate cads. They aren't. Some are idiots, Right? You've got to agree with me 'cause you're a guy and you would know. *

(But I still can't ride no-handed...no matter how often I try...I'm getting better at track stands if I don't know I'm doing them...)
I agree about the 'broad' categorization of ANY large group of people, no pun intended. And, in an earlier post, I qualified it pretty heavily but failed to this time. Apologies for that. There are no doubt about half a zillion exceptions to the rule. But there's that damn rule that seems to have some truth to it. And I'd say that most men are inconsiderate, although I'm not sure about the cad part. Having been one myself for nearly half a century now, though, I'll also say that the good news is we usually don't MEAN to be - we're not TRYING to piss you off. We just don't notice or 'consider' a lot of the stuff women do. Which, by definition, makes us inconsiderate. We mostly can't help it.

I can ride no handed seemingly for weeks at a time (depending on the bike - NOT on a Brompton), but I can't really do track stands. I can just about go slow enough that if the light changes within, say, 10-15 seconds, I might fool some people into thinking I can do a track stand, but I can't literally come to a full stop and then do all of the rocking back and forth tricks needed to keep it upright indefinitely. I'm convinced this is because I started riding no-handed when I was about six (because I was stupid and had no fear) and didn't start trying to do track stands until a few years ago (and never tried all that hard).

-Ray

[Ginger]

Does it bother you when scientists categorize/generalize regarding the behavior of "non-human" females versus their male counterparts? We may be a little smarter, but are we really that different than all other species?

As to riding hands off, some bikes are more difficult compared to others. Try a couple of different ones to see if one is easier to control. Also, most riders learn when very young on bikes that are very easy and without clipless pedals.

Nope. But there are other reasons for that. Generally "what" they're studying...

Yep, I'm aware that different bikes ride no handed better than other bikes...but it's every single bike I've ridden...it's not the bike, or the setup...it's my genuine lack of balance. put me in a rowing scull and I have no problem balancing...must be the massive thighs. ;) (and there's some truth to the lower center of gravity and balance thing...I've studied this issue of mine for quite a while...)

[justinf]

Wait a minute. I thought it was generally accepted as fact that all men are inconsiderate cads.

I've been leveraging that principle for years.

[RPS]

...it's my genuine lack of balance. I’m sure your balance is fine. IMO it’s all about being committed to the point of not giving up no matter what. As a kid I bought a unicycle and kept working with it even though I must have fallen off the darn thing 100s of times. One day it just clicked and I kept going. Now I can go for 10 years without riding it and still stay on (although awkwardly). Most adults (and most kids) just don't want to fall off that many times -- and many may not need to due to superior balance. In my case it was all perseverance.