Fit Question: Saddle to Bar Drop

[tmanley]

I've got 2 bikes, one with a drop of 9cm (training bike) and the other with a drop of 12cm (race bike). From those who are experienced fit gurus, how much is too much drop? Just looking to know what's standard for a fit rider with average flexibility.

FYI, the training bike is a fitted Serotta CDA and the race bike is a s-works E5 that I've squeezed myself into.

-Thanks, Todd

[Fixed]

there are no rules imho maybe more with age and fitness . can you walk when you get off check out the jerk's bike
cheers

[deanster]

I've got 2 bikes, one with a drop of 9cm (training bike) and the other with a drop of 12cm (race bike). From those who are experienced fit gurus, how much is too much drop? Just looking to know what's standard for a fit rider with average flexibility.

FYI, the training bike is a fitted Serotta CDA and the race bike is a s-works E5 that I've squeezed myself into.

-Thanks, Todd

You are obviously very young. As you get older you move the bars up toward the saddle. If you can ride 50miles or more on the 12cm drop with out your back hurting and hands not going to sleep you are OK If Not move the bars up. When I raced I had a full 5 1/2 inch drop. Now I have a 2 inch drop.
My back and hands always talk to me and let me know what is right.

[swoop]

how long are your arms? (rhetorical). its as much about the length of your torso and arms as your flexibility.

[Dave]

I'm 54 and still use a 9-10cm drop. If I've got too much drop, long periods in the hook section of the bar (on mountain descents) causes me neck discomfort from having to bend my neck too much, to look down the road. Never had a back or hand problem related to drop.

[Ti Designs]

The fitter makes certain assumptions which change things like saddle to bar drop. When I went to Serotta Fit School Paul Levine was teaching. His method is based on the drops being the primery position on the bike. With that primary position established there are ways of checking flexability to make sure you are within your range of motion at every pivot point. This is a sound, scientific method of fitting, but because I don't agree with the assumption going in, I don't agree with the resulting fit. The way I see it, there are 5 positions on the bike, most if not all of which should be functional. In the saddle there's the tops, hoods and drops, out of the saddle there's the hoods and drops. I try to reach a balance where the rider has little strain to the lower back while on tops, has their center of gravity over the pedals in the hoods and may be slightly out of their range of motion in the drops. I see the drops as a means of lowering the center of gravity for most, not so much a place to spend long periods of time. Out of the saddle there's the hoods for climbing where I'l looking for a verticle body position and the hip directly over the pedal, and a sprinting position in the drops with the torso almost horizontal.

As for the question of drop, the body wants a sense of balance. If you look at the back angle, the arms will try to get to the same point. Bars that are too low will often cause the rider to roll their shoulders down, or alter their back position to gain that balance. Too much weight on the bars is another indication that there's something wrong.

[soulspinner]

Great info

[michael white]

how long are your arms? (rhetorical). its as much about the length of your torso and arms as your flexibility.

this is a point I seldom hear, which is crucial. Everyone thinks bar drop has to do with fitness or flexibility but in fact you can be fit and fast and still need very little drop. It's all about morphology. Some people have relatively longer or shorter arms for the torso, and this makes a huge difference.

this not only affects bar height, but also shallow vs deep drop bars as well. People seem to often think shallow drops are for small hands. Relative arm length determines how far you have to bend in the drops.

It took me years and a few bikes to figure this stuff out. It's fair to say that all of the advice I was getting at shops was bad advice.

mw

[mwos]

this is a point I seldom hear, which is crucial. Everyone thinks bar drop has to do with fitness or flexibility but in fact you can be fit and fast and still need very little drop. It's all about morphology. Some people have relatively longer or shorter arms for the torso, and this makes a huge difference.

this not only affects bar height, but also shallow vs deep drop bars as well. People seem to often think shallow drops are for small hands. Relative arm length determines how far you have to bend in the drops.

It took me years and a few bikes to figure this stuff out. It's fair to say that all of the advice I was getting at shops was bad advice.

mw

+1

I had a bike fitted and built by a shop who was known for their fitting expertise. But I wasn't comfortable on the bike.Short rides were ok but riding on a daily basis (tours) my shoulders would kill me. My shop kept telling me the fit was fine (my handlebars were below my saddle). I kept stretching and lifting weights but nothing helped.

Finally, I went to a Serotta fitter in Cincinnati who is very well known to this forum and it turned out that my handlebars were 4 cm to low. It had nothing to do with my flexibility or strength, I just have short arms! After raising the handlebars no more shoulder pain.

Kathi

[FATBOY]

if my drop was as low as it feels, it would look pretty impressive. Unfortunately being only as low as it is, it's pretty mundane. Seat to bar drop can become a sort of pissing point on this forum, it' like guys whipping out their cell phones to see who's is smallest or unzipping and well ummm....None of it really proves a damn thing to you, the guy on YOUR bike, unless it works for YOu, the guy on Your bike. So my question to you is... Does it work? I hope so, I hope it is a damned blast! Cuz otherwise, what's the point? Have fun......

[LesMiner]

It would seem that the difference in saddle to handle bar height would be influenced by riding style. If you want that aero position, flat back streamlined, then maybe whatever difference in height gets you there is the right one. If your goal in riding is to race then would you not want the fastest riding position? Which is more important to you speed or comfort? As I sit and watch TDF riders, I do not see any consistency in the saddle to handlebar height or even riding position. These guys riding at the TDF level must have figured out what the right position is for them. The point is that there are no absolutes in the geometry of a bike fit.

I have had two professional fittings, one very poor and another very good. One attribute I think could be added is the curvature of the back from the side or profile. In particular the area near the neck. The greater the curve going from the base of the neck down the spine could make it more diffcult to keep your head up so you can see the road ahead.

[Paul Levine]

Ti Designs

I need to respond to your assertion that my “method is based on the drops being the primary position on the bike”. I taught the Serotta Fit School for five years and I never made this claim. In fact, our method stresses that the primary position is on the hoods, where we expect the athlete to spend approximately 80 percent of their time. Then depending on terrain and the athletes riding style and fitness we may make the assumption that the athlete will spend approximately 15 percent of their time on the tops and then the remainder in the drops. These ratios will change obviously if one races criteriums or road races.
I do agree with you that the “body wants a sense of balance” (which I taught by giving examples how the body compensates for an out of balance position) I am interested in understanding how you conclude that a rider “reach a balance where the rider has little strain to the lower back while on tops, has their center of gravity over the pedals in the hoods and may be slightly out of their range of motion in the drops”.
What biomechanical or physiological triggers allow you to determine that every athlete will have a “little strain” on the tops? How are you determine and measure “center of gravity over the pedals in the hoods”? What range of motion are you measuring to determine that the athlete “be slightly out of range of motion in the drops”?

Paul Levine

[Simon Q]

It would seem that the difference in saddle to handle bar height would be influenced by riding style. If you want that aero position, flat back streamlined, then maybe whatever difference in height gets you there is the right one. If your goal in riding is to race then would you not want the fastest riding position? Which is more important to you speed or comfort? As I sit and watch TDF riders, I do not see any consistency in the saddle to handlebar height or even riding position. These guys riding at the TDF level must have figured out what the right position is for them. The point is that there are no absolutes in the geometry of a bike fit.

I have had two professional fittings, one very poor and another very good. One attribute I think could be added is the curvature of the back from the side or profile. In particular the area near the neck. The greater the curve going from the base of the neck down the spine could make it more diffcult to keep your head up so you can see the road ahead.

I also look at the positions of pro riders in photos or TV and while of course on average their bar positions are aggresssive there is still quite a range of set ups, some are quite relaxed, some nuts (eg the drop of Pozzato, Wiggins or Ballan).

I am 6'4' and my drop is only around 7 cm, which is noty a heap for my size. While I would like more drop so that I could look more pro, I am simply not comfortable with more bar drop, I get a sore neck and shoulders. On the other hand, I do have more reach than would be the norm for weekend warriors, I like to be stretched out.

There are guys on this thread who are much better qualified than me to opine on bar position but it seems to me more than any other aspect of fit, with bars there are no rules - it is all how it feels to the rider.

[RPS]

How are you determine and measure “center of gravity over the pedals in the hoods”?Paul, I have no idea how Ti Designs does it, but I simply coast while on a level road, place pedals at 3 and 9 position, lift off the saddle ever so slightly, and then let go of the bars. If I pivot backwards about the BBKT and make contact with the saddle, then my CG is behind the BBKT. If I pivot forward about the BBKT and make contact with the hoods, then my CG is forward of the BBKT.

I adjust my bikes by feel -- and in my case it turns out that CG over BBKT feels right to me. May not be right for others.

[swoop]

me thinks with bars there are several correct answers.. but at the same time .. several incorrect answers too. a classic incorrect is the esteemed erik saunders... who goes to great lenghts to have low bars and low rise stems and then has to ride way on the tip of his saddle just to reach the drops. the irony being that his back would be in the same position and he could ge tmouch more real estate if he adjusted.

but.. the dude's forgotten more than i'll ever know so its all said with great respect and just to make a point.

and like all things.. bars are just one data point in many...

i dislike the distinction between pro and non pro for fit.... its really a matter of function, biomechanics, and taste.

atmo.