OT: Bottled Water

[m_moses]

The latest issue of Fast Company has an interesting article about our consumption of bottled water. A very worthwhile read. Here's a link: http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/117/features-message-in-a-bottle.html?partner=rss

a few nuggets:

--Thirty years ago, bottled water barely existed as a business in the United States. Last year, we spent more on Poland Spring, Fiji Water, Evian, Aquafina, and Dasani than we spent on iPods or movie tickets--$15 billion. It will be $16 billion this year.

--Bottled water is the food phenomenon of our times. We--a generation raised on tap water and water fountains--drink a billion bottles of water a week, and we're raising a generation that views tap water with disdain and water fountains with suspicion. We've come to pay good money--two or three or four times the cost of gasoline--for a product we have always gotten, and can still get, for free, from taps in our homes.

--Meanwhile, one out of six people in the world has no dependable, safe drinking water. The global economy has contrived to deny the most fundamental element of life to 1 billion people, while delivering to us an array of water "varieties" from around the globe, not one of which we actually need.

--A chilled plastic bottle of water in the convenience-store cooler is the perfect symbol of this moment in American commerce and culture. It acknowledges our demand for instant gratification, our vanity, our token concern for health. Its packaging and transport depend entirely on cheap fossil fuel. Yes, it's just a bottle of water--modest compared with the indulgence of driving a Hummer. But when a whole industry grows up around supplying us with something we don't need--when a whole industry is built on the packaging and the presentation--it's worth asking how that happened, and what the impact is. And if you do ask, if you trace both the water and the business back to where they came from, you find a story more complicated, more bemusing, and ultimately more sobering than the bottles we tote everywhere suggest.

[bigbill]

I live in Italy where bottled water is a fact of life. The tap water won't kill you right away, but it has a lot of chlorine and metals due to old piping. The difference is the cost. I can stop on a ride and pick up a 1.5 liter bottle of cold water for around .5 euro, around 70 cents. You can't do that in the US. I bet the Italian companies still turn a profit.

[1centaur]

The arrogance and shallowness of the press is so very evident in that article. They just don't get that writing "when a whole industry grows up around supplying us with something we don't need" shows a clueless disregard for the rational choices made by millions of people - somehow Janey Journalist is so much smarter than the crowd. The constant references to tap water being all we "need" are in the same vein. Heck, millions of people get along fine without tap water, so does that make tap water a stupid luxury?

Bottled water: No calories, tastes better than tap water in many cases (Dasani for one, which was formulated to taste like good water and succeeds), no artificial sweeteners or chemicals, available where you are and not where the tap is, the healthy alternative to regular and diet soda...what's not to like? In an obese world, bottled water is one of the few positive consumption trends. Is it the default choice in schools and fast food restaurants yet? It should be.

Favorite stupid statistic from a recent anti-bottled water articles: 80% of unrecycled plastic bottles end up in the landfill. What genius thought that one up?

Recycle your bottles folks, and revel in a world where good tasting chilled water is available easily where you are and when you need it.

[stevep]

Recycle your bottles folks, and revel in a world where good tasting chilled water is available easily where you are and when you need it.

or turn the faucet on in your house and get the same water for free.

[Climb01742]

or turn the faucet on in your house and get the same water for free.

perhaps not steve. twice a year, our town "flushes" the water system and for days every drop of water looks like liquid rust. add to that town water pipes that are early 1900s vintage and pipes in my house that are a mix of new and "vintage" shall we say, and i'm glad to pay the poland springs dude to drop a few big bottles off every month.

bottled water_may_be overkill (and may not) but considering how much i drink a day (to stay hydrated, especially in summer) it's a nice insurance policy.

[keno]

I seem to recall from group rides in the past stops at supermarkets where one of us would buy a gallon jug of water, not one of the name brands, for about a buck and we'd all fill our water bottles. So what if it's about 75 degs F? The convenience stores and even the coolers at supermarket check outs have the high-priced stuff.

I also seem to remember a comedy routine in which, perhaps Robin Williams, the French think up bottled water as a way to get stupid Americans to buy what they can get for free. For me, the water from the tap, whether at chez keno or in a restaurant, is just fine.

keno

[Squint]

Favorite stupid statistic from a recent anti-bottled water articles: 80% of unrecycled plastic bottles end up in the landfill. What genius thought that one up?

Well, the other 20% I see laying on the ground while I'm out riding.

Reverse osmosis is your friend (this is how most bottled water is "made" anyway). $30 in pre-filter cartridges for unlimited water per year.

[JohnS]

Move to the Great Lakes. We have the best tap water around. Also, much of the bottled water comes from our area.

[William]

http://img.alibaba.com/photo/11027812/Bottled_Water___Private_Label.jpg

[davep]

Reverse osmosis is your friend (this is how most bottled water is "made" anyway). $30 in pre-filter cartridges for unlimited water per year.
Except RO wastes a tremendous amount of water. They recover only 5 to 15 percent of the water entering the system. The remainder is discharged as waste water. Because waste water carries with it the rejected contaminants, methods to re-cover this water are not practical for household systems. Waste water is typically connected to the house drains and will add to the load on the household septic system. An RO unit deliver-ing 5 gallons of treated water per day may discharge 40 to 90 gallons of waste water per day to the septic system.

[ss-jimbo]

Recycle your bottles folks, and revel in a world where good tasting chilled water is available easily where you are and when you need it.

I actually carry bottles (usually soda, I fill my bike bottles from a tap) home in my jersey pocket to recycle. I've never seen any of my fellow riders do that. Am I alone?

I have to agree on many points here. Why is bottled water more expensive than soda or other drinks, and even gasoline? If you love the taste so much, it is much more economical to install a filter and carry a Nalgene or two with you.

That being said, everyone is free to make her/his choice.

[jspa]

abcnews reported that to get one bottle of french bottled water to you takes 2 ounces of oil. Seems pretty extravagant to me.

spell evian backwards.

I'm glad there's starting to be a backlash against bottled water. I'm tired of you health nuts chucking the bottles in my front yard on your way to getting healthy.

[William]

...I'm glad there's starting to be a backlash against bottled water. I'm tired of you health nuts chucking the bottles in my front yard on your way to getting healthy.

Hey, don't feel bad. A certain forum member stuffs them in my mailbox every so often. You know who you are!!! :crap: :D




William

[Squint]

Except RO wastes a tremendous amount of water. They recover only 5 to 15 percent of the water entering the system. The remainder is discharged as waste water. Because waste water carries with it the rejected contaminants, methods to re-cover this water are not practical for household systems. Waste water is typically connected to the house drains and will add to the load on the household septic system. An RO unit deliver-ing 5 gallons of treated water per day may discharge 40 to 90 gallons of waste water per day to the septic system.

The typical ratio is 4:1. Reverse osmosis doesn't require any additional energy but it does send some water down the drain. The energy comes from the potential energy of the public water works. The "waste" water, however, is still dechlorinated.

Secondly, how many houses use septic systems? The Schedule 40 drain pipes won't even be close to being overloaded by the waste water which, incidentally, is carried by a tiny 1/4" OD hose.

The water is simply recycled into the water treatment but doesn't increase the burden on the system since it's already filtered.

Alternatively, you can use the water to fill your pool, water your garden, etc.

Lastly, most bottled water is reverse osmosis water so you don't avoid the production of waste water by buying bottled. However, you do avoid the cost of shipping water, which is very dense, across the country.

Many environmentalists recommend getting your own water filter or reverse osmosis filter and refilling Nalgene bottles rather than buying bottled water.

[Kevan]

and my wife has been sucked into buying those handy bottles and consuming the top shelf of the fridge. What's that about? I've now barked enough that she bought some refillable water bottles from Tarja, but they suck..or to be more precise...they don't suck. They're lousy!

Anyway, NY water tastes great!

So...where does one find some good looking cycling waterbottles? Rivendell? Anyone else make for a purdy bottle?

[Russell]

Some high-end restaurants are no longer serving bottled water and have installed very good filtration systems to provide water with or without gas; Alice Waters and Mario Batali to name a few.

[mcteague]

Bottled water bugs me too. Baltimore water tastes fine to me. However, I went on vacation in the Poconos last month and filled my water bottle from the tap before my ride but could not drink it. It tasted like it had been filtered through rusty nails. I picked up a gallon of no-name bottled water to use for the next few days.

Actually, several tests I have seen show most tap water is actually cleaner than lots of bottled water. So, just because it comes in a fancy bottle is no guarantee of purity.

Tim McTeague

[Squint]

Some high-end restaurants are no longer serving bottled water and have installed very good filtration systems to provide water with or without gas; Alice Waters and Mario Batali to name a few.

Filtering still requires energy. Just about every process does. If the filtration is powered by water pressure then the work is done by the water treatment plant pumping water up into the storage tanks.

However, it's still way more efficient to treat water from a local source and filter it locally rather than doing the same thing at a distant location, bottling it, and then shipping it across the country (or further).

[rwsaunders]

Only about 1/4 of the water bottles in this country end up being recycled too, even though there is a high demand for the recycled product by the Chinese. They have to make the McDonald's toy giveaways from something.

[Climb01742]

to play devil's advocate...

stock frame = tap water
custom frame = bottled water

apt analogy?
;)

[William]

to play devil's advocate...


...custom frame = bottled water

apt analogy?
;)

I can't wait more then 2.5 months for good water....I'll die.




William :rolleyes: ;)

[Ahneida Ride]

My solution is a 400 ft. 12 gallon a miunte well.

and a few stainless bottles from Velo Orange.

[Bud_E]

Penn & Teller had (still have ? ) a series on HBO called "Bullsh*t" . They had one episode on bottled water where they held a "water tasting" in an expensive restaurant. Participants were sampling various waters from a variety of fine glass bottles and critiquing them like professional wine tasters. Where did the water come from ? -- they were all filled with the same hose water from the alley behind the restaurant.

[Seramount]

Bottled water is one of my favorite topics.

I am a biologist for the state of Texas in the Public Drinking Water section. In TX, public water supplies are held to a higher standard of purity than bottlers.

Public water systems are tested at varying intervals each month for coliform bacteria using qualitative (presence/absence) testing methods. If ANY bacteria are detected, the sample fails.

The state health dept regulates bottlers which are allowed to test their product using a quantitative (numerical) test for bacterial CFU (colony-forming units). A sample passes if it has LESS than the threshold value of critters. Therefore, the presence of some bacteria is permissible.

The ironic part is that the sources for many bottlers is, wait for it...., municipal water supplies, not some pristine artesian source or arctic glacier. I LMAO when I see people paying good money for City of Houston tap water that someone put in a bottle...yummers.

The waste stream issue surrounding bottled water is well-documented. If you think most of the plastic is recycled, you're horribly misinformed. Additionally, the petroleum used to manufacture and ship billions of bottles yearly is not insigificant. Feel free to google for the stats on these...

Granted, bottled water has a convenience factor for some situations, but it is mostly a marketing SCAM. If it's in a clear bottle, it must be 100% pure...right?

Virtually everyone served by a PWS (public water system) can obtain good-tasting water by simpling installing a high-volume, activated charcoal filter on the kitchen tap. It will polish the water by removing chlorine and some other constituents for pennies a day.

[OldDog]

to play devil's advocate...

stock frame = tap water
custom frame = bottled water

apt analogy?
;)


Shimano = tap water
Campagnolo = bottled water :beer:

[paulh]

Bottled water is one of my favorite topics.

I am a biologist for the state of Texas in the Public Drinking Water section. In TX, public water supplies are held to a higher standard of purity than bottlers.

Public water systems are tested at varying intervals each month for coliform bacteria using qualitative (presence/absence) testing methods. If ANY bacteria are detected, the sample fails.

The state health dept regulates bottlers which are allowed to test their product using a quantitative (numerical) test for bacterial CFU (colony-forming units). A sample passes if it has LESS than the threshold value of critters. Therefore, the presence of some bacteria is permissible.

The ironic part is that the sources for many bottlers is, wait for it...., municipal water supplies, not some pristine artesian source or arctic glacier. I LMAO when I see people paying good money for City of Houston tap water that someone put in a bottle...yummers.

The waste stream issue surrounding bottled water is well-documented. If you think most of the plastic is recycled, you're horribly misinformed. Additionally, the petroleum used to manufacture and ship billions of bottles yearly is not insigificant. Feel free to google for the stats on these...

Granted, bottled water has a convenience factor for some situations, but it is mostly a marketing SCAM. If it's in a clear bottle, it must be 100% pure...right?

Virtually everyone served by a PWS (public water system) can obtain good-tasting water by simpling installing a high-volume, activated charcoal filter on the kitchen tap. It will polish the water by removing chlorine and some other constituents for pennies a day.

+ 5

Additionally, I dare say that on most public systems, if you get a nice cold flow from the tap, fill up a gallon jug, shake it and put it in the fridge for drinking the next day, you will not be able to tell the difference between that and any bottled water.

Remember back in the '90s Perrier was shipping water with benzene in it.

[steelrider]

or turn the faucet on in your house and get the same water for free.

I've read that the majority of bottled water sold in CA comes from taps in the Central Valley.

[stevep]

Shimano = tap water
Campagnolo = bottled water :beer:


what?
campy is expensive and overpriced?
really?

[flydhest]

I am glad for all of the tap water advocates that are including the word "most" or "almost always" in their commentaries. There have been many cases of EPA violations with DC tap water.

[Ozz]

I am glad for all of the tap water advocates that are including the word "most" or "almost always" in their commentaries. There have been many cases of EPA violations with DC tap water.
I don't think the tap water problem is the purity as it leaves the processing plant, it is what comes out the tap itself after running thru miles of old pipe.

The Seattle Public Schools (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/education/2001981032_lead16m.html) had to shut off the water fountains in some schools, and deliver bottled water to the schools for awhile cuz the lead content in the water was so high....the danger was disputed, but who knows?

FWIW - I have my trusty 32oz Serotta Nalgene bottle and access to filtered water at work and at home...I do buy the occasional Costco water cuz the bottles fit in the cup holders of my car..... ;)

[flydhest]

Ozz,
You're mostly right, but the discussion, as I followed it, was about the water that comes out of the tap. Most checks are done at the plant, but that is cold comfort if what comes out of the faucet is crap. Nevertheless, even at the plant there was a recent problem during their switchover between antimicrobial agents, IIRC. It was covered up for a while.

[Ozz]

... It was covered up for a while.
I'm shocked.... :rolleyes:

[Karin Kirk]

What about the health effects of the plastic bottle, in terms of various dissolved compounds in the water? I've read varying reports about different types of plastics being more or less prone to this. Apparently the Nalgene-type lexan bottles may have a potentially unhealthy compound in them, but I've not found conclusive studies one way or another. I'm not sure about the safety of the basic plastic bottle that water comes in - it's been awhile since I've read up on that. Does anyone here know about this?

I do have an occasional weakness for bubbly, bottled water. I get caught up in the grey area - do I buy the stuff in the glass bottle that has been shipped all the way across the ocean? Or the plastic bottle that is from a neighboring state? As is true with every environmental/economic/political/social question, there are always pros and cons and rarely a perfectly clear cut answer.

[Hardlyrob]

Karin;

The plastic used in bottled water is either PET - polyethylene therapthalate or C-PET - crystaline PET. This is the same stuff used in almost every plastic beverage bottle. From a toxicity standpoint it has been tested into the ground and found nothing.

However, some of the plasticizers used are similar in structure to estrogen, and part of the cloud of pseudo-estrogen chemicals we all live in. So far nothing other than questions about the possible health effects that I'm aware of, but others may know more.

Rob

[Squint]

Nalgene bottles use Lexan while the disposable bottles that bottled waters come in are PET or something else. Water put in Nalgene bottles only stays there for a few hours before being consumed while bottled water stays in the bottle for a long time during which it may be exposed to temperature extremes.

[Ozz]

What about the health effects of the plastic bottle, in terms of various dissolved compounds in the water? I've read varying reports about different types of plastics being more or less prone to this. Apparently the Nalgene-type lexan bottles may have a potentially unhealthy compound in them, but I've not found conclusive studies one way or another. ...
Look at the reports on baby bottles....these might have the info you are looking for. Although a lot of the reports are put out by the plastic manufacturers.....it's tough to filter the spin.

My opinion on the baby bottles and nalgene type bottles is that the water or milk or juice is not in the bottle long enough before consumption to cause a problem..... :beer:

[Richard]

Just by a stainless bottle or two here:

www.reusablebags.com/store/klean-kanteen-27oz-stainless-steel-reusable-bottle-p-324.html?osCsid=b15b6bdce6a96e6f73bac1152484366e

$11.95, you can't go wrong.

[Seramount]

Sorry that some statements in this discussion have qualifiers in them, that's the way life is, there really isn't much that is 100% guaranteed.

Microbial testing of a PWS is performed throughout the distribution system, not just at the WTP (water treatment plant). Some systems are also required to monitor their raw water sources as well as their treated water. Systems in my state are required to have a monitoring plan that samples representative sites from entry-point to the furthest EOL (end of line).

In addition to microbial monitoring, PWS are also subjected to chemical monitoring on a periodic basis (annually, semi-annually, etc.) for priority pollutants. EPA currently maintains a list of 227 drinking water contaminants. You probably do not want to know what is on their watch list for inclusion...

Microbes (bacteria/viruses) can cause ACUTE health effects and make you sick within hours or days of consumption. Metals, VOCs, SVOCs, etc may require decades before chronic effects are evidenced.

Oh, and if you're worried about plasticizers, don't ride in new cars. They are chock full of these...phthalates are essentially that 'new car smell'...

[Karin Kirk]

However, some of the plasticizers used are similar in structure to estrogen, and part of the cloud of pseudo-estrogen chemicals we all live in. So far nothing other than questions about the possible health effects that I'm aware of, but others may know more.

Rob

Yes - that's the issue I'd heard about. The hormone mimic stuff seems scary to me, all the more so since the studies seem to be inconclusive. Thanks for your input.

[1centaur]

My one small input on plastic bottles is that PET is reputed to start leaching chemicals after it's been reused a few times - maybe the air introduces an element of oxidation after the vacuum seal has been broken. That's why personally reusing bottled water bottles may not be a great idea.

10gpm - that would be nice. My well pumps at 3.4 gpm. I think if I put a tap filter on it I'd be waiting a while. I remember water from the tap in England when I was a boy being fantastic, but whenever I travel for business, in America or Europe, I am always unpleasantly surprised by the chemical taste of the tap water in my hotel. For me, literally until I tried Dasani, on which Coke spent some effort to get the right mineral content to impart a desired taste, it had been years since I had tasted water that I thought actually tasted good. For a while I drank distilled water, but it has a blandness that's not desirable. On those occasions when I ask for tap water in a restaurant I am usually sorry. I suspect the treatment levels are well above what they used to be.

I think you could literally drive yourself insane trying to have a minimum impact on the environment, especially if you researched heavily up and down the energy use/waste continua since you would get so many conflicting opinions from seemingly well intentioned people. There's probably a good (funny) indie movie to be made with that insanity as a story line. The choices we make to run down bugs on the road or use rubber tires or walk on grass (or goodness knows mow the lawn) when plants have been shown to experience distress when mistreated are in the end somewhat arbitrary and capricious. Campy or Shimano? Which one has a larger carbon footprint before it gets to your door?

[Squint]

I think you could literally drive yourself insane trying to have a minimum impact on the environment, especially if you researched heavily up and down the energy use/waste continua since you would get so many conflicting opinions from seemingly well intentioned people. There's probably a good (funny) indie movie to be made with that insanity as a story line. The choices we make to run down bugs on the road or use rubber tires or walk on grass (or goodness knows mow the lawn) when plants have been shown to experience distress when mistreated are in the end somewhat arbitrary and capricious. Campy or Shimano? Which one has a larger carbon footprint before it gets to your door?

With bottled water, there's no controversy. Shipping something as dense as water thousands of miles for no reason is energy intensive.

[1centaur]

With bottled water, there's no controversy. Shipping something as dense as water thousands of miles for no reason is energy intensive.

"for no reason" is not correct, it's just not a reason everyone appreciates/values. However, if that's the standard of virtue, I win because I suspect my Dasani did not come from thousands of miles away. I wonder what the cutoff distance is before the "evil" sign is hung around my neck - 653 miles? Shipping a 750 gram crankset thousands of miles on the other hand is definitely energy intensive, and there's clearly "no reason" for that.

[Squint]

"for no reason" is not correct, it's just not a reason everyone appreciates/values. However, if that's the standard of virtue, I win because I suspect my Dasani did not come from thousands of miles away. I wonder what the cutoff distance is before the "evil" sign is hung around my neck - 653 miles? Shipping a 750 gram crankset thousands of miles on the other hand is definitely energy intensive, and there's clearly "no reason" for that.

You can tell yourself whatever you want to placate yourself.

In the US, Dasani is sourced from municipal tap water. That avoids the energy costs of transportation but doesn't avoid the petroleum use of bottling and bottle disposal.

The crankset analogy is an unintelligent argument because, unlike tap water, a specific type of crank cannot be created locally without requiring additional infrastructure. The pipelines that deliver tap water to all parts of the country are already in place. Thus, it does not make sense to produce bottled water from tap water far away and ship it when it can be done locally. However, to create a specific high end weight weenie crank, making the tooling and the expertise required to create them as widely available as tap water is far less practical and energy efficient than producing them at one location and shipping them.

http://www.charleston.net/news/2007/jul/13/bottle_battles10475/

Bottled water is only a small fraction of the water consumed each year, and the bottles are not too big a percentage of what goes into landfills. But in terms of "carbon footprint" — the fossil fuel emissions discharged for the product made — it's huge.

"It's unnecessary in almost every case and it creates a lot of pollution along the way," said Janet Larsen, the institute's research director, adding that Environmental Protection Agency standards for tap water are stricter than Food and Drug Administration standards for bottled water.

"It doesn't make sense to spend a lot of money on a product that isn't any better than what you get out of the tap. A lot of the bottled-water makers, that's what they do — run tap water through a carbon filter and sell it to you," she said.

"Plastic is very, very resilient. It takes an awful long time for it to break down, and it never really goes away," she said. Researchers have estimated that it takes 1,000 years for plastic to break down. Environmental groups such as the institute have begun to focus on that issue.

[DukeHorn]

You can tell yourself whatever you want to placate yourself.

In the US, Dasani is sourced from municipal tap water. That avoids the energy costs of transportation but doesn't avoid the petroleum use of bottling and bottle disposal.

The crankset analogy is an unintelligent argument because, unlike tap water, a specific type of crank cannot be created locally without requiring additional infrastructure.

wow, ownage :D

[Your_Friend!]

If the faucet supplies water
That is not Hygenic?
Maybe try a water filter?
In my icebox sits a Brita Pitcher!!
Very tasty!

Love,
Your_Friend!

[keno]

.

[Elefantino]

Rambling …

We had an RO system in our old house. The water tasted good. But I didn't know about water being wasted.

We have a charcoal filter in our fridge in this house. The water tastes good. We fill up our water bottles with it. We change the $8 cartridge every six months.

When we're in restaurants, we order "water with lemon" and really don't care whether it came from the tap or not. The only exception is in Mexico.

BIOTA doesn't use PET or C-PET bottles. Its bottles are derived from corn and can, it says, decompose in any landfill. That's a great idea that no one else has, probably because of the cost. And because corn is being used more and more as an alternative fuel source, it will get more expensive and others aren't likely to follow BIOTA's lead.

[Climb01742]

perhaps we should all be careful about injecting moral outrage into a) a discussion about water, and b) on a forum where our knowledge of each other is limited.

my guess is each of our lives has a complex carbon and petrochemical footprint. to some, bottled water may seem like an indulgence or worse. but could any of us say that every choice we made in life could survive the scrutiny some here are applying to bottle water?

BTW, has anyone ever looked at the ecological footprint of a bike's tubing, construction, paint and shipment? i bet it ain't pretty.

hey, why not live and let drink. :D

[Elefantino]

pBTW, has anyone ever looked at the ecological footprint of a bike's tubing, construction, paint and shipment? i bet it ain't pretty.
No, but consider this: The construction of my bike makes probably the same ecological footprint as a new set of golf clubs. Maybe less.

A much smaller part of the cow had to die for my leather seat than for a leather golf bag.

There are no fertilizers required to keep the playing surface in shape for cyclists.

Cyclists do not drink beer while riding, thus lowering the chance of alcoholism. Ditto with smoking and smoking-related things.

If a tube has a hole in it, many cyclists patch. If a golf ball is cut, golfers toss them.

Oh … and you don't have to pay to watch a cycling race. That has nothing to do with ecology, just your wallet.

[flydhest]

anybody have one of those seltzer bottles that, in my experience, the Three Stooges made famous? I prefer to drink bubbly water and didn't know if those things are a viable subsitute.

[Karin Kirk]

anybody have one of those seltzer bottles that, in my experience, the Three Stooges made famous? I prefer to drink bubbly water and didn't know if those things are a viable subsitute.

Yes, I have one of those. It is a decent alternative if you have good tasting tap water to start with. A single CO2 cartridge (no, not the ones you use for fixing a flat) makes 1 liter of water and a 10-pack costs anywhere from $5-$9, so you're talking 50 to 90 cents for a liter. So it's a little cheaper than buying bottled water. The little cartridges are recyclable so I believe the environmental impact is lower.

The downside is that the seltzer bottle is very heavy and is awkward to take in and out of the fridge. An alternative is to make the bubbly water, then dispense it into a regular 1 liter glass bottle and keep that in the fridge. I've only tried than once but I took the water out of the seltzer bottle before it got fully charged so it wasn't too bubbly.

Our bottle is glass with metal chain mesh over it. There are aluminum ones that would be lighter and easier to handle.

Another way to go about it is to get a larger CO2 bottle, like they have at restaurants, and plumb that into your sink so you could have bubbly water on demand. I would love that! I haven't looked into the cost or feasibility, but it seems like it would be a neat way to go.

[goonster]

Cyclists do not drink beer while riding

Speak for yourself. :rolleyes:

And what does alcoholism have to do with it? :no:

I grew up in a city with great tasting water (Vienna). Then I moved to a city where the water tasted like crap (Seoul), and was rumored to cause dysentery occasionally, but I still drank it from the tap, even though not many locals did. I survived. Then I moved to another city with great water, even though few locals appreciated it (NYC). Now I'm in the burbs, with lousy water and a water softener (yuk!). Hello bottled water!

I know what I like, and if it tastes like lye I won't drink it.

Bottled water bars sound like a waste of time to me, but I refuse to paint that as a political issue . . .

[jhcakilmer]

I'm in the process of building my RO system. We just don't like the taste of tap water......we can tell the difference when we make juice, or cook with it. Also, I just don't trust the quality of tap water...I know it's not empirical, but we just moved from southwestern Michigan, and there is a lot of agriculture, therefore lots of spraying, fertilizing, etc. So where does that all go.....water table? Also, a high rate of cancer, when compared to the rest of the US.

We where distilling our water, but get tired of having to fill it up, so we're going to try RO. Everyone has there own reasons, and I just don't trust it.

My parents water supply is from a mountain spring, and honestly that's the best tasting water I've had......maybe I should start selling it.... :p

[paulh]

Seltzer

anybody have one of those seltzer bottles that, in my experience, the Three Stooges made famous? I prefer to drink bubbly water and didn't know if those things are a viable subsitute.

[fiamme red]

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/01/opinion/01wed2.html

[Grant McLean]

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/01/opinion/01wed2.html


I think people are also using refillable containers too, but unfortunately
i'm not sure in what numbers.

Our store sells Nalgene and Camelbak waterbottles, and we've sold
literally tens of thousands of those bottles in the past few years.

Recently, more customers have been asking about 'chemical leaching'
stories they've read about lexan waterbottles. Despite the fact that
our Government in Canada has said there is no issue, Lexan is safe,
the sales of Nalgene bottles are trending down significantly.
This could be because the bright Nalgene colour bottles aren't really 'new'
anymore, and everyone has one, but who knows?

Media stories (even ones the only raise a question, without providing any
facts or answers) effect consumer habits in a big way.

g

[davids]

to play devil's advocate...

stock frame = tap water
custom frame = bottled water

apt analogy?
;)
I don't think so...

Here in Boston, tap water is a known entity. It comes from the Quabbin Reservoir, is (unnecessarily) filtered by the Massachusetts Water Resource Authority, and pumped to our homes. It’s consistent in quality and taste. I know exactly where it comes from and how it’s processed before reaching my glass. I get an annual report (http://www.mwra.com/annual/waterreport/2006results/2006results.htm) from the MWRA, for free, on the quality of my water. I’ve even had my pipes tested for lead. We’re clean and healthy.

Bottled water comes in a dozen different plastic bottles, each featuring obfuscating advertising slogans and pretty pictures. In most cases, it’s unclear what the source of the water is. It has been processed (or not) in ways that I cannot track and are not regulated. When I buy bottled water, I am buying the idea that I am drinking something more healthful and tastier than tap water. In reality, what I am buying is the product of a ‘black box’ of sourcing and processing. All I’ve got to go on is marketing.

The analogy doesn’t work, atmo.

I’ll qualify this by saying that if I lived in Saratoga Springs, I’d drink bottled water. I know – people travel from far & wide for that healthful mineral water, fresh from the springs. It makes me gag.

[Geoff]

No, but consider this: The construction of my bike makes probably the same ecological footprint as a new set of golf clubs. Maybe less.

A much smaller part of the cow had to die for my leather seat than for a leather golf bag.

There are no fertilizers required to keep the playing surface in shape for cyclists.

Cyclists do not drink beer while riding, thus lowering the chance of alcoholism. Ditto with smoking and smoking-related things.

If a tube has a hole in it, many cyclists patch. If a golf ball is cut, golfers toss them.

Oh … and you don't have to pay to watch a cycling race. That has nothing to do with ecology, just your wallet.

And the roads we ride on have no environmental impact???

[Hardlyrob]

I don't think so...

Bottled water comes in a dozen different plastic bottles, each featuring obfuscating advertising slogans and pretty pictures. In most cases, it’s unclear what the source of the water is. It has been processed (or not) in ways that I cannot track and are not regulated. When I buy bottled water, I am buying the idea that I am drinking something more healthful and tastier than tap water. In reality, what I am buying is the product of a ‘black box’ of sourcing and processing. All I’ve got to go on is marketing.

The analogy doesn’t work, atmo.

I’ll qualify this by saying that if I lived in Saratoga Springs, I’d drink bottled water. I know – people travel from far & wide for that healthful mineral water, fresh from the springs. It makes me gag.


Davids makes some good points, but it is not quite the wild west out there in bottled water land. Bottled water that is sold across state lines (virtually all of it) is regulated by the FDA like any other food. In addition, you will often find little certifications from the PA dept of Ag, NYC sanitation committee etc. that shows the water is approved for sale in those areas.

Labeling of bottled water is regulated, but the consumer is not clear on what it means: Drinking water or table water can come from any source. Dasani and Aquafina are produced by the various Coke and Pepsi bottlers from whatever source they are using for the soft drinks - it may be municipal, it may be a well.

Spring water must come from the designated source - Poland Spring, Evian, Crystal Geyser etc. are all spring waters and must come from the named source.

This distinction is not made clear to consumers.

I don't know how water is processed as I've never worked on a water busienss in detail, or been through a plant - I doubt that it's much more than charcoal filtration. In the case of Dasani, I know that they add a mineral mix back to the water to make it "crisp" - whatever that is.


Happy drinking!

Rob

[benb]

Charcoal filter for the win.

That "taste" out of the tap water is usually chlorine right? That's not going to hurt you. If there was enough chlorine in the water to mess you up you'd know it right away. You'd probably pass out from the fumes before you even drank the water.

But just filtering with a pitcher is cheap and easy.

I do however buy bottled water at gas stations when I'm riding, and I partake in the free supply of seltzer water in our office.

If there is any tap water you could convince me is unsafe it's the stuff coming out of the taps in those disgusting gas station bathrooms!

If the waste of going to the grocery store and buy 100 16-oz bottles of water a week doesn't hit you over the head like a box of rocks I don't know what to think. When I was living in apartments I successfully convinced several roommates to stop doing that.. at the very least buy gallon jugs!

One of our local bottled water companies is "Mondadnock water". I ride by their plant quite often when I go cycling. If you show up at their factory there is a spigot on the outside of the building. They sell the water out of the spigot at 94% off the retail price.

[Ginger]

I’ll qualify this by saying that if I lived in Saratoga Springs, I’d drink bottled water. I know – people travel from far & wide for that healthful mineral water, fresh from the springs. It makes me gag.
Ya know what's funny? Those famous "mineral baths?" There was a dustup recently when it was found that the state baths were mixed with tap water...

http://spas.about.com/b/a/257641.htm

[davids]

One of our local bottled water companies is "Mondadnock water". I ride by their plant quite often when I go cycling. If you show up at their factory there is a spigot on the outside of the building. They sell the water out of the spigot at 94% off the retail price.
My wife & I used to go to a place in Quincy that sold "bottled" water out of the spigot, 25 cents/gallon, filling jug after jug... We thought we were pretty smart. Then we learned about the high quality of what comes out of our taps.
Ya know what's funny? Those famous "mineral baths?" There was a dustup recently when it was found that the state baths were mixed with tap water...
Maybe I'll like it more now?

[benb]

I didn't mean I go buy it at the $0.25/gallon price at the source. I'm way too lazy to do that.

Heck if everyone had to lug their weekly supply of bottled water up a flight of stairs or so they'd probably start thinking the tap water tasted pretty darn good.

[deechee]

I'm sure us tap water drinkers are just as bad offenders. I flush my taps (run them for a few minutes) after a day away or sometimes on really hot days. Its necessary since I live in an old building and old neighborhood with lead and cement pipes. If I'm gone for a day or more, the water is a lovely brown.

btw, are we less environmentally unfriendly if we drink evian in the glass bottles? I find it tastes better too.

I'm sure that plastics impart a flavor to water; I have always been told to cook/prepare in metal or glass; and notice the difference. Ever cook something in tupperware? Even the microwave-safe stuff is definitely a bit funky over metals and ceramics...

[itsflantastic]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20095510/
don't know if this link was posted in this incredibly long thread. . .

* The containers are made of plastic or glass. When full, both become very heavy. It costs a fortune in oil to ship heavy bottles around the country, much less around the world.
* Close to 2 million tons of plastic was used to make bottles for water last year. That manufacturing involves an enormous about of petroleum, since it is a key ingredient in plastic. In the U.S. alone, 30 million bottles a day, billions of bottles a year get tossed out. Recycling them costs another small fortune in gasoline to haul them to plants.
* Bottled water is being promoted all over the world by a host of companies such as PepsiCo, The Coca-Cola Co., Nestle and Cadbury Schweppes. These companies, plus the boutique outfits such as Evian and S. Pellegrino, are staking their future on getting you to drink water from bottles since it is getting harder and harder to persuade you to drink soda and other sugared water from their cans — and it’s working.
* According to Beverage Marketing Corp., a provider of beverage-related data, consumption of bottled water has been growing by a gallon a year per capita in the U.S., and consumption has doubled in the past decade. Americans now drink more water from bottles overall than any other nation. However, we are only tenth among nations of the world in drinking bottled water per capita, trailing Italy, Mexico, Spain, France, Germany and Switzerland.

[Ozz]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20095510/
don't know if this link was posted in this incredibly long thread. . .

... * Close to 2 million tons of plastic was used to make bottles for water last year. That manufacturing involves an enormous about of petroleum, since it is a key ingredient in plastic. In the U.S. alone, 30 million bottles a day, billions of bottles a year get tossed out. Recycling them costs another small fortune in gasoline to haul them to plants.....
How much was used to bottle soda and other sugary drinks? This is a weak point...you have to put portable beverages into something...it might as well be recyclable.

The only downsides to bottled water I see are cost and transportation. I am perfectly happy with filtered tap water, in a bottle from a local source.

At home, the water running thru the refrigerator is filtered and goes into a glass.

I wonder why this is such a burning issue for everyone now? What are all the news articles and press releases setting the stage for? What agenda is being pushed? Hmmmm.....I am sure there are more worthwhile topics that need attention (healthcare, housing, budget deficits, wars, etc....)

[Hardlyrob]

I can't say for sure about the packaging - soft drinks have a significant volume in 12 oz aluminum, and in 2 and 3 litre plastic which will confuse things some. I still bet there is more packaging for carbonated soft drinks than water. The difference is we don't tend to ship soft drinks very far - water is heavy, we tend to bottle them locally. Spring water on the other hand has to be shipped from the source.

US consumption in 2006 was 51 gallons of soft drinks per capita and 24 gallons of bottled water per capita according to the USDA here (www.ers.usda.gov/AmberWaves/June07/PDF/SoftDrink.pdf )

By the way Evian isn't a niche player, they're owned by Group Danone - or Danon to us 'mericans. San Pelligrino and sister company Aqua Panna are part of Nestle Waters.

Cheers! :beer:

rob

[Karin Kirk]

I wonder why this is such a burning issue for everyone now? What are all the news articles and press releases setting the stage for? What agenda is being pushed? Hmmmm.....I am sure there are more worthwhile topics that need attention (healthcare, housing, budget deficits, wars, etc....)

I don't know the answer, but I wonder if it's because little issues like this one and plastic bags and which cars to buy have become iconic of the cheap oil lifestyle. Maybe these issues are not large in and of themselves, but perhaps they are symbolic of Americans beginning to wonder about the economic or environmental sustainability of some of our habits. Some of the things we've been taking for granted suddenly are under scrutiny as we consider things like carbon footprints and domestic energy and all the other environmental/energy supply/political issues that are becoming hot topics these days.

IMHO there has been a huge swing of public opinion and media attention on this stuff in the last 12 months. Remember when every story about global warming used to include some so-called "skeptic" who said it was all bunk? We never hear from those people anymore, which is a good thing (IMHO). We've gotten over that hurdle and now people are wondering how the energy and climate issues are going to boil down and affect our everyday habits.

So in some ways, bottled water is insignificant, but perhaps it's symbolic?

[grifter]

Some tap water smells funny....... Some taste funny.... And though they maybe "cleaner" than you average bottled water, most look like some washed their feet in the water when you get it from the tap. I get my water from one of the water shops near where i live. The water tastes better { flame away if you must}, smells better, and doesn't look like someone spit a mouth full of toothpaste into it when it comes out of the tap.

[JohnS]

Some tap water smells funny....... Some taste funny.... And though they maybe "cleaner" than you average bottled water, most look like some washed their feet in the water when you get it from the tap. I get my water from one of the water shops near where i live. The water tastes better { flame away if you must}, smells better, and doesn't look like someone spit a mouth full of toothpaste into it when it comes out of the tap.
Where do you live???

[grifter]

Where do you live???


Los Angeles