Frame design for pulling a trailer

[SadieKate]

I'm musing over whether I should sell a few bikes that don't get ridden much and get one that is happier pulling a trailer. So, what makes a frame happy to pull a heavily loaded BOB trailer?

There are two scenarios:

1) short overnight offroad camping trips - We keep talking about riding a few rails to trails paths that are unpaved and remote (such as the Warm River Canyon in Idaho on the way to West). 5 years ago I would have used my Litespeed Unicoi softail but now I have a Titus RacerX that I adore. Are full suspension XC bikes happy pulling a BOB? The Unicoi is one of the bikes that is rarely ridden so it could potentially be used to fund a frame that would be good for scenario #2.

2) Grocery shopping and errands -- For errands I use a Kelly KnobbyX (his cross frame) which ain't happy at all pulling a trailer with any kind of load. I know Chris didn't design it to pull a trailer but it's given me good insight into what happens when a bike doesn't like a loaded trailer. The front end lifts horribly and you have no steering control. It's seem similar to the steering issues I have when riding a 1976 Bob Jackson mixte I have that is a tad small for me. The front end doesn't exactly lift but it sure wobbles. I think my weight is just completely unbalanced on the bike. Standing is frightening.

So I guess I have two questions: short travel full suspension and trailer: Good, bad or just try it? I don't think I'd ever ride much singletrack pulling a trailer, just not my idea of fun, but a rails to trails where I could take a little fly rod . . . :)

What about a road frame for scenario #2? What specifically would I look for that would tell me that it would be stable pulling a heavy load of groceries? Long chain stays? What else?

[bozman]

SK,
I cannot speak to the first question but for #2 I just had a similar situation for my wife. She wanted a bike to ride on dirt trails and pavement but one that she could also use to pull a Burley with our two kids on board to the pool, as well as for short errands.

She decided on a Redline Conquest Pro w/ Campy Centaur. I got her a second set of wheels with road tires so she can ride a little better on pavement.

So far so good. She loves the feel of the bike--both with and without the Burley. She has not had any issues with front lift, at least none that she has mentioned.

The kids and gear for a typical jaunt to the pool total about 55 lbs and the trailer is another 20 lbs or so.

I hope this is helpful.

[SadieKate]

Thanks, it is helpful if I can get to the frame specs. I better go look up that bike. Somehow, to me, a bike with Campy Centaur would automatically have road tires.

My cross bike is set up with flat bars and I adore it for everything about town except pulling a trailer. I'm probably going to go totally geek and compare numbers and angles in an attempt to figure out what I want to do next.

[justinf]

I use a Surly Karate Monkey for this purpose, built as a 1x9 with Midge bars, cantis, and cross wheels. It works like a champ. There are pics posted on the forum somewhere, let me know if you're interested and I'll hunt them down. j

[bozman]

Here are some specs from the shop where we purchased it:

http://www.schwabcycles.com/Qstore/Qstore.cgi?CMD=011&PROD=1157142537

Standard cross setup. The only oddity would be the flat pedals. My wife has not ridden a bike like this in MANY years so she opted for plain ol' flat pedals until she gets used to the ride.

[SadieKate]

Am I reading this right? The smallest Karate Monkey has a 57.66 effective TT? Maybe because it's a 29'er? If so, I can't really compare apples to applies. My Kelly has a 53 cm TT so I need to compare specs for that size.

The Redline Conquest has a .45" longer chainstay, a .3" lower BB, and a .65" longer wheelbase. 74 seat angle compared to a 73 in the Kelly. Anyone know if I'm going down the right track?

[Bradford]

What about a road frame for scenario #2? What specifically would I look for that would tell me that it would be stable pulling a heavy load of groceries? Long chain stays? What else?
I use my touring bike for my trailer, but I only haul the trailer and my 20 lbs son, so I'm not sure what happens if you put on another 40 lbs or so. A touring bike is designed to carry loads, so it makes sense that I have really enjoyed the ride with the trailer.

I don't have the specs with me now but I might have an old catalog that still has them. But the basics are longer chainstays, relaxed angles, and more standover room than a race bike. (if you can't fit a pump behind the seat tube with fenders installed, the chain stays are too short). It needs to take big tires (at least 700x37), have rack mounts, fender mounts, low rider braze ons in case you put on a front rack, and a third water bottle cage (which is perfect to hold your headlight battery). It should take cantis if you so choose or V brakes if you don't. Powder coat is especially nice since working bikes will get some abuse. Overall, it should built with a sturdier tube set so it doesn't twist under the load.

And, as our friend DBRK would point out, the handle bars need to be higher than a race bike, if not even with the seat.

I think the touring bike is the great all arounder of bikes and that everyone should have one. If you like custom, Andrew can build you a nice one. However, this is one type of bike where stock gets the job done, so you'll have options from a Trek or Cannondale on Ebay all the way up to some really tricked out frames. I have an IF Independence and it is all the bike I need, from hauling the baby to loaded touring.

[SadieKate]

Maybe I should be clearer. If I'm actually touring (ie, running away from home), I'll be on a mtb off road. If I'm on the pavement it's only for short hauls to the grocery store. If I'm going to the grocery and, in addition to a trailer, I need racks, panniers and a 3rd water bottle, enter me in a 12-step program. ;)

I should go look at the chainstay lengths on dedicated touring bikes.

[SadieKate]

Anyone know if a 631 mixte frame would be stiff enough for towing a trailer of groceries. I shouldn't have but I did. I looked again at a Miss Mercia. Oh no. :crap:

[Bradford]

I need racks, panniers and a 3rd water bottle, enter me in a 12-step program. ;)

Most of the people on this board need some professional help, including me. :D

[djg]

Anyone know if a 631 mixte frame would be stiff enough for towing a trailer of groceries. I shouldn't have but I did. I looked again at a Miss Mercia. Oh no. :crap:

On a paved road? I'm missing something here. I don't see why any functional bicycle wouldn't be "stiff" enough to pull a bob trailer (or kid-type trailer) loaded with groceries.

[SadieKate]

Don't know. I'm just gathering opinions and this is from the post above:

Overall, it should built with a sturdier tube set so it doesn't twist under the load.

[Ginger]

On a paved road? I'm missing something here. I don't see why any functional bicycle wouldn't be "stiff" enough to pull a bob trailer (or kid-type trailer) loaded with groceries.

Nah, I can tell you that if you take a coz trailer (the bob with the rubbermaid top), add 25lbs of cat litter, and another 20lbs of groceries, certain bikes might not mind, but they mite shudder a lot. A "stiff" frame suddenly becomes oh-so-much less stiff feeling. It settles down once you're underway, but starting out...ughly, ugly.

My Fat Chance Yo Eddy (SM-M) was much better at towing the loaded trailer than my road bike is.

And, if reports from my buddies at trail days (where we have a non-suspension Bob to tow the chainsaw about) a hardtail is preferable to a full suspension for towing the trailer on actual single track.

[scrooge]

Hmmm. i never thought about what bike is best. I just figured they all work fine. A big thing is to make sure it's loaded correctly.

PS: Anyone in Denver (area) want to buy my extra bob?

[SadieKate]

Oh yeah, if you have an odd load (say a file box of the day's race entries) and your front wheel suddenly is insisting on taking a break from steering duties, you're thinking about bike handling.

[Ti Designs]

My Fat Chance Yo Eddy (SM-M) was much better at towing the loaded trailer than my road bike is.


Same here, my Yo Eddy (M) with the original fork is as good as it gets for trailer work. If they ever have off road trailer racing I may have to come out of retirment. My Burley Solo is way better at birms and double jumps than you would think...

[djg]

Nah, I can tell you that if you take a coz trailer (the bob with the rubbermaid top), add 25lbs of cat litter, and another 20lbs of groceries, certain bikes might not mind, but they mite shudder a lot. A "stiff" frame suddenly becomes oh-so-much less stiff feeling. It settles down once you're underway, but starting out...ughly, ugly.

My Fat Chance Yo Eddy (SM-M) was much better at towing the loaded trailer than my road bike is.

And, if reports from my buddies at trail days (where we have a non-suspension Bob to tow the chainsaw about) a hardtail is preferable to a full suspension for towing the trailer on actual single track.

I believe you. And I don't have experience towing a bob trailer, although I know folks who've done it with different bikes. I have pulled both a loaded double kid trailer (5 year-old twins, drinks, snacks, etc. -- more than 100 pounds total, not counting the trailer) -- and, on different occasions, a trail-a-bike (the thing itself weighs a ton) with one kid (and a sort of preposterous linkage at the seatpost) with various road bikes and my cross bike and they all seem fine. Sure you have to pay attention getting started, anticipate your braking a bit, and take it easy in the corners, but the bikes don't creak or groan or crack in two. I've had the kid trailer on both pavement and hardpack. For single track ... well, I don't know and I defer to others on the question what special tools work best. For roads or rails to trails, I'd think all sorts of things would be fine and dandy, with clearance for touring or cross tires a plus on rough roads or unpaved packed trails. For a 3 or 5 mile trip back from the grocery store (forget the three pallet trips to costco), I'm back to thinking just about anything ought to be fine. YMMV.

[RPS]

...snipped.....The Redline Conquest has a .45" longer chainstay, a .3" lower BB, and a .65" longer wheelbase. 74 seat angle compared to a 73 in the Kelly. Anyone know if I'm going down the right track?I don't know, but would guess not because even if you were a bike designer all that information wouldn't tell you much about how the trailer would feel to you. IMHO it would be impossible to tell in advance -- much easier to do a test ride and know for sure.

Personally I wouldn't directly compare feedback from those who pull Bob trailers with those who pull 2-wheel cargo or kid trailers. They load the bike's frame very differently, so things like whether you need or would benefit from a stiffer frame is not directly comparable.

[SadieKate]

For a 3 or 5 mile trip back from the grocery store (forget the three pallet trips to costco), I'm back to thinking just about anything ought to be fine. YMMV.Nope, not true. The trailer and the load have the same effect on a bike whether you're riding 3 miles or 50 miles. A full load of groceries can weigh a lot.

Several years ago, I had a Marin Larkspur that was perfectly behaved with the trailer but my Kelly KnobbyX is not. I'm trying to figure out why.

RPS, I am trying to sort the feedback by the different types of trailers but one problem is that I can't test ride some of the bikes I'm considering. I'm not an off the rack bike buyer. I may need to go over to the frame builders forum.

[woolly]

If it were me, I'd be looking for an old-school mountain bike with a rigid fork, or a durable & affordable touring frameset like a Surly Long Haul Trucker.

[RPS]

RPS, I am trying to sort the feedback by the different types of trailers but one problem is that I can't test ride some of the bikes I'm considering. I'm not an off the rack bike buyer. I may need to go over to the frame builders forum.You can also try contacting BOB and see what they say about which general bike designs or characteristics work best. That trailer design is so different that they may know more about what works well.

If you will be carrying heavy loads, I'd also consider a heavy-duty rear wheel since that trailer will place additional vertical and lateral loads on the rear wheel.

[Ginger]

Nope, not true. The trailer and the load have the same effect on a bike whether you're riding 3 miles or 50 miles. A full load of groceries can weigh a lot.


It's not the "going" that's the problem with a trailer (well, except uphill) and it's not the stopping while you're moving along. It's that initial lift and go that gets the wobbles. Didn't have that issue with the Fat, but that's a very different bike.

[SadieKate]

I'm regretting more and more selling my Wicked Fat oh so many years ago.

I keep looking at bikes like the Bleriot, a Kogswell, etc, and they all use 650B or whatever wheels. I'd just like to swap out all the stuff on my Unicoi but that means 26" wheels. The last thing I need is a 3rd wheel size to support.

[SadieKate]

Just thinking outloud here, maybe I should just get a suspension-corrected rigid fork for the Unicoi. Doesn't solve my lust for a new steel bike, but it is less expensive . . . .and a lot less fun.

[MarleyMon]

I pull my Bob trailer with a '94 Miyata Quickcross - solid as can be.
Commuting, shopping - not afraid to leave it for hours anywhere.

I saw a thread here about a guy who toured NY state on a fixie
w/ Bob and front paniers - maybe a little weight in front would
help stabilize.

A custom for grocery shopping? - I'm really out of my league here!

[SadieKate]

Not a custom frame but I've got parts galore - on bikes, in the garage, in the attic, in the kitchen, in the front bedroom - that I could put on a production frame. And I just bought some parts from sgmidf. We are pathetic. :rolleyes:

[MarleyMon]

I feel your pain.

[deanster]

A good steel cross bike would be good all around bike for your task. You can set it up with drops or flat bars which ever is your preference. I bought an older steel Torelli CX and am using a Daytona Triple (same as Centaur). I have 2 sets of wheels one with 700c28 road tires (can ride with 23s if I want) and a set of off road 45s (that work well in snow).
I commute summer and winter (Colorado) and find the bike works well with a rack and panniers. Lately I have been looking at a number of trailers so I can carry more. I find the Cross geometry best. I have Road bikes and a MTB that I wouldn't use a trailer with (well maybe the MTB). Good luck

[SadieKate]

Thank you, but did you see that it is a cross bike which doesn't like a loaded trailer?

[justinf]

Rigid 29er. And yes, the KMs and their ilk seem to ride larger than the ascribed size.

Pulling a trailer with suspension on roads is a drag.

[deanster]

Thank you, but did you see that it is a cross bike which doesn't like a loaded trailer?
I don't think anyone likes a loaded trailer. I've seen Road, Touring, MTB, and CX bikes with trailers and the person riding the bikes have expressed their satisfaction. Riding with a loaded bike is always a drag (no pun intended). But it is what is needed if you want to go touring or grocery shopping. I have seen modified bikes with very long frames and large baskets that seem to do the trick...I wish I could remember the name of the builder. Anything other than a bike alone is some kind of compromise on performance.

[billrick]

http://www.bikefriday.com/sites/default/files/images/LynetteBoston.jpg

[RPS]

I have seen modified bikes with very long frames and large baskets that seem to do the trick...I wish I could remember the name of the builder...snipped....Trikes are probably the more common way to carry very heavy loads (both cargo and people), but there are also some two-wheel bikes specifically made to carry heavy cargo. Below are a few pictures of cargo/passenger applications.

[pdonk]

^^The City of Toronto has a few of the ones on the bottom left. I have test ridden one around in a parking lot, handles well, once you are up to speed. If it was mine, it would get upgraded with a better saddle and a different stem.

I haev also ridden offroad with a bob, hauling trail building supplies and materials, not so much fun once the speed wobble starts.

[RPS]

pdonk, I'm not sure if the Xtracycle is a retrofit add-on only that can be installed on most bikes, or if it can be bought as an entire bike.

I'd assume the biggest advantages to trailers are that they can be detached so the bike can be ridden solo, and that the cost is much lower than an extra bike dedicated to haul cargo.

Of technical interest to me is that many of the cargo-specific bikes place the cargo in front of the rider. That keeps the drivetrain simpler and allows a lower cargo center of gravity, but I'd be interested in knowing if the handling would be similar if the cargo was behind as with the Xtracycle.