Lynskey

[dleroy]

Since I'm in TN I've an interest in Lynskey Custom and have been wondering if y'all have any experience with their bikes. My Local LBS is a dealer for both Lynskey and Serotta so if I wanted a nice Ti frame (and could scrape up the cash) I could have my choice. Informed opinion would be both welcome and appreciated.

[soulspinner]

This isnt any help but at the Rochester Twilight Criterium last month I saw my first Lynsky up close after the masters race. wow. The finish was stunning.

[Smiley]

SOPKE has one of each , well maybe 10 Serotta's and one of the other :)

[pdxmech13]

From a bussiness stand point I think that they are really out of their league. The amount of advertising would lead me to believe they have a goal set very high. If I had the choice of a world class Ti bike I would just look to the far left of the screen.

[Steelhead]

The Lynskey Brothers sold a little company called Litespeed..... I bet they can handle the ticket for some swanky advertising. :) My regular shop ride carries them and has done well with them, and they have several high end lines to compete with. I think Lynskey floor plan is pretty solid with their choice of tubesets, frames, paint (WOW) etc... Also - the head mechanic at that shop has a wife that is a very serious rider/racer and when it came time for her new bike, thats what she got. That says a lot when you have that kind of choice, and a prodeal to boot applicable to many brands.

[bhungerford]

my dad just took delivery of his lynksy, with custom paint, probably the one seen at the Rochester Crit. attached is a pdf of the paint scheme. He bought a Cervelo Soloist Carbon late last season, and prefers the Lynsky hands down, he spec'd a crit race bike, he's a 56 yr old Cat 4 (only because he doesn't have the time to get the points to move to a 3) i haven't ridden it yet, but he said it's exactly what he was asking for.

the one negative was the communication between his paint designer and Lynsky's paint department, took an extra week and a half to get the details across. but in the end looks great.

[tch]

I just can't get beyond the squared-off tubes. Bike frames ought to be made out of round tubes. Oversize is OK with me, but angles.... not.
My $0.02.
I'm sure they're well made.

[scooter01]

the above bike must be the Level 4.
I have a new Level 3 that Spokes built for me. All I can is it is awesome.
The tube set on the Level 3 are not squared off. My two Serotta's now just hang in the garage. Spoke did a fantastic job for me.

The fun part of this frame purchase was the fact that David Lenskey called me and did the build interview over the phone. I got to talk to him for about thirty minutes. He asked all kinds of questions about me, my riding what I was looking for in this new bike and what I was currently riding. He then explained what he would do with the tubes set to give me the ride I was looking for. That was pretty cool.

I love my Serotta's but this experience with the Lenskey is pretty cool to.
Thanks again Spoke!

[rePhil]

Reminds me of the Seinfeld episode. I don't get the "level" thing.
Is one that much better than another? Lynskey claims a fairly significant jump in performance when you purchase a level 3. I wonder how much seat of the pants difference there really is, if any?
I am sure they are nice bikes, and I wonder why they jumped back into the bike business. I hope it's because they really like building cool bikes.

[bhungerford]

my dad's bike (the one pictured) is a Level 4 custom, i don't remember the exact geo...anyways, he talked to David also, enjoyed the whole experience except for the paint delay, at least while it was delayed, now loves the bike, so is ok with the delay. i do know that he spent a small fortune on the thing, and the funny part is he got this bike because he was afraid of crashing his Cervelo in a crit and not being able to determine if it was delaminated or damaged in some way that wasn't readily visible, so now this is his 'crashable' custom bike...funny guy. :rolleyes:

there's nothing different about "Levels" on these and the more normal model names of other brands, just different ways to distinguish models is all

[davids]

I just can't get beyond the squared-off tubes. Bike frames ought to be made out of round tubes. Oversize is OK with me, but angles.... not.
My $0.02.
I'm sure they're well made.
+1

And as far as the paint: Too many of their paint jobs remind me of '70s-era conversion vans.

http://www.showtrux.com/showvans/battlestar/images/avanonea.jpg

http://www.showtrux.com/showvans/tonysvan/images/a2.jpg

Not my cuppa, atmo...

[Samster]

my ride-buddy just got a lynskey level 3. he's happy with it. they don't use cylindrical tubes for their top end frames. they use ti sheet that gets formed into those fancy diamond cross-section pipes. why/how is this better? i don't know.

litespeed's address to lynskey is the "archon" model. (but i have a ti merckx that came out of litespeed's facility that simply had too many issues, indicating a lack of consistent quality control.)

otoh, i think serotta ti models are absolutely first rate. and i think they're a better value overall (not just saying that because this is their forum). not only that, i think they are more aesthetically pleasing.

btw, i think only level 4's come with the diamond shaped tubes.

[soulspinner]

Thats the one I saw but a picture does the finish no justice. I did take note of that shaped(or whatever its called)downtube and figured it was a race bike afterall so hopefully it stiffens things up a bit.

[musgravecycles]

Those Lynskey's can't even begin to compete with Serotta/Moots, etc as far as quality ti frames go, just trust me on this one.

You'd be a heck of a lot better off with a Legend...

[Steelhead]

Those Lynskey's can't even begin to compete with Serotta/Moots, etc as far as quality ti frames go, just trust me on this one.

You'd be a heck of a lot better off with a Legend...

If "naked eye" side by sides counts - I would put the Lynskey up against the Merlin, Guru Ti and Serotta that were right next to the one I looked at. The welds look almost Moots-like. And that was on bare Ti, without paint so you could really see the welds. I know there is much more to a top of the line frame than the welds but if you are standing there looking at them, they seem equivalent. My .02

[Pete Serotta]

yep////

Those Lynskey's can't even begin to compete with Serotta/Moots, etc as far as quality ti frames go, just trust me on this one.

You'd be a heck of a lot better off with a Legend...

[Serotta PETE]

Sorry, used the wrong ID. This is my opinion and not one of SEROTTA.


yep////

[BumbleBeeDave]

My two Serotta's now just hang in the garage.

That's a real shame! I'd be happy to look after them for you until you get tired of the Lynskey and come to your senses . . . ;)

BBD

[rickygarni]

I wonder if anyone criticizing the Lynskey has actually ridden one. Especially those who say "you would be better off with..." – I think that you can make this sort of statement if you have put in a season (or more) on both bikes. Given the fact that Lynskey hasn't existed for much more than a season, I am not sure those who are responding can speak to this comparison in great depth.

Disclaimer: No, I have not ridden a Lynskey for a season. I have, however, ridden two Lynskey 3s. They rode beautifully. Sort of like turbo-Litespeeds (wonder why...)–I have owned many bikes over many years, from Peugeot PX 10s to Colnago Masters to Mercians to Independent Fabrications to Pegorettis to whathaveyou. I would love to have a Lynskey. Multi shaped tubing? A beautiful aesthetic, just a different one.

And the paint job here I think is dynamic and daring. And beautiful. Hats off to courage and artistic zest.

Ricky

[Steve Hampsten]

Those Lynskey's can't even begin to compete with Serotta/Moots, etc

They don't have too, they're competing with Litespeed. What do you think Litespeed owners, seeking an upgrade, will choose: another Litespeed or a custom Lynsky with good paint?

I saw some Lynskys at Interbike and was well impressed. The shaped tubes thing is complete BS but if it allows them to compete against Litespeed - go for it, say I. It won't be a worse bike.

The Archyon is Litespeed's answer to Lynsky, and a good one. I love this ****.

[Smiley]

+1 for Steve Hampsten who yet again gets it right. Litespeed is the King of Ti bikes and why would they ( Lynskeys ) not have Litespeed in their radar screen . This is not my cup of tea but why build a Ti bike in this world of carbone anyway :)

[Ken Robb]

does Litespeed still make aluminum bikes? I thought that was a big blunder for them when they introduced them since LS had always stood for ti ATMO.

It was kind of like when Packard came out with a 6 cylinder car in the 1930's: they sold some to folks who couldn't afford an 8 cylinder Packard but the whole image was cheapened and Packard never really recovered leaving most of the luxury field to Cadillac.

[Steelhead]

No more aluminum for Litespeed, ugly Ti frames only. ;)

[musgravecycles]

They don't have too, they're competing with Litespeed.


Agreed, Heck, Lynskey IS Litespeed! :rolleyes:

The OP asked about Lynskey vs. Serotta, based on my experiences with them, and other Ti makers, there's no way on God's green earth that I'd take a Lynskey over a Moots or a Serotta...

[LegendRider]

Agreed, Heck, Lynskey IS Litespeed! :rolleyes:

The OP asked about Lynskey vs. Serotta, based on my experiences with them, and other Ti makers, there's no way on God's green earth that I'd take a Lynskey over a Moots or a Serotta...

OK, but why?

[Steve Hampsten]

Litespeed went through a period of offering Taiwan-built alloy frames, Taiwanese carbon frames through Merlin (tubes/lugs from Taiwan, assembly here - asfaik, thanks Tom K), and Taiwan-sourced components via their Real line of forks, wheels, et al.

Litespeed seems to be returning to their roots as a US-based builder of titanium frames sold through bike shops. Their reliance on shaped tubing and changing their line-up every year is both their defining feature and biggest drawback, imho.

Say what we will about the product, but the frames don't fall apart and there are some smart people working with that company.

For me it's fun to watch them because Litespeed/ABG is as big as high-end bicycle manufacturing will ever be in this country. It shows what a large company needs to do, or needs to try to do, to be profitable today's economy.

I think Lynsky is now pushing them to impove their high-end product and to offer more color choices and options. Litespeed has manufacturing ability that Lynsky will never have (and may not want), and Lynsky has a cachet and small-company feel that Litespeed doesn't (and may not need).

I may be way off base here, apologies if so. I wish them both the best of luck; I wish Serotta better luck. (Now if Serotta would only bring back an aluminum frame...)

Suggested reading: "No Hands; The Rise and Fall of the Schwinn Bicycle Company"

[swoop]

i would love to see all these builders offer custom alum/sc frames at a lower price point. its such a great material.

[Steve Hampsten]

OK, but why?

Imho, there is no why. We like what we like. If we have a good experience with Brand S, then that makes their bike the best. If we have a bad experience with Brand L, then all Brand L bikes suck.

All we know is our own experience

(pay attention now)

there is no empirical evidence that one brand of bike is better than another

nobody builds shyte

buy what you like

[Tom Kellogg]

Suggested reading: "No Hands; The Rise and Fall of the Schwinn Bicycle Company"

Another suggested reading: 10 Points Bill Strickland. Yes, cycling can save your life.

[Steve Hampsten]

i would love to see all these builders offer custom alum/sc frames at a lower price point. its such a great material.

word

[LegendRider]

Imho, there is no why. We like what we like. If we have a good experience with Brand S, then that makes their bike the best. If we have a bad experience with Brand L, then all Brand L bikes suck.

All we know is our own experience

(pay attention now)

there is no empirical evidence that one brand of bike is better than another

nobody builds shyte

buy what you like

But musgravecycles seems to have a very strong negative opinion of Lynskey (no way on God's green earth...), so that kinda begs the question "why?" It seems like he's holding something back.

[michael white]

i would love to see all these builders offer custom alum/sc frames at a lower price point. its such a great material.

For those that do offer both steel and al, like Co-Motion and Sycip, it would be interesting to compare sales figures. If steel and ti outsell al at the high end, why would that be? --because those buyers see the frame as an investment, and want to make sure it will last?

Obviously, with the Pegs, the al frames seem to sell quite well. All my bikes are steel or ti, but I do think I'd have room for a fast al bike if it fit.

[Steve Hampsten]

Co-Motion builds relatively few aluminum single frames in a year, but quite a few alloy tandems.

Dario tells me that about 30% of his output are aluminum frames, almost all for the US market.

Aluminum frames are like stinky cheese or big French wines; they're not for everyone but those who love them - really love them.

I like the stiff ride, I like paint, I like to feel the road under me, I like sprinting and motoring on short hills, I like the big welds and big tubes, I like to feel like a racer. I like the lack of flex.

An aluminum bike feels like a race bike.

Period.

[michael white]

Co-Motion builds relatively few aluminum single frames in a year, but quite a few alloy tandems.

Dario tells me that about 30% of his output are aluminum frames, almost all for the US market.

Aluminum frames are like stinky cheese or big French wines; they're not for everyone but those who love them - really love them.

I like the stiff ride, I like paint, I like to feel the road under me, I like sprinting and motoring on short hills, I like the big welds and big tubes, I like to feel like a racer. I like the lack of flex.

An aluminum bike feels like a race bike.

Period.

LOL great answer. I especially like the part about stinky cheese. I remember in France seeing the elderly gents and ladies sniffing cheese in the market to see if it was stinky enough.

Here, we don't want anything to smell like anything, so we miss out on those sensory pleasures.

I'll remember that.

[mikki]

I think someone has to be pretty bold or tough skinned to put their new bike up for criticism on a bike forum.

[Steve Hampsten]

I think someone has to be pretty bold or tough skinned to put their new bike up for criticism on a bike forum.

It takes a big pair of fuzzy dice to that, Mikki - yes indeedy.

This just in on our friends at Lynsky:http://www.bicycleretailer.com/bicycleretailer/headlines/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003609158

[djg21]

Since I'm in TN I've an interest in Lynskey Custom and have been wondering if y'all have any experience with their bikes. My Local LBS is a dealer for both Lynskey and Serotta so if I wanted a nice Ti frame (and could scrape up the cash) I could have my choice. Informed opinion would be both welcome and appreciated.

I have a level IV custom I got to replace a litespeed vortex that got destroyed when I got hit by a car last summer. The Lynskey is just awesome. It is buit with a biaxial downtube and is far stiffer laterally than my old 2003 Vortex. It's also stiffer in the front-end and quicker handling than the Vortex. It is built up with a Reynolds UL fork.

I have ridden custom steel rides, and numerous high-end bikes including over then years. The Lynskey is by far the best bike I've ever ridden.

[djg21]

yep////

This is utter bull****.

[Kirk Pacenti]

You know, I visited the new Lynskey facility a few months back and I have to say that I was very impressed. I don't know what I was expecting when I went over there, but they really did surpass my all my expectations.

And though I have never been one for shaped tubes the bikes really do look great. The paint is done by my neighbor and world-class-chopper-painter Kenny Reynolds and His son. These guys have done some work for me too, and it is among the best I have seen.

I wish them luck and many successful years to come in their new endeavor. dleroy, I also hope your dad has many happy miles on his new bike!

[Louis]

I think someone has to be pretty bold or tough skinned to put their new bike up for criticism on a bike forum.

I'm waiting for Chairman Zoe to post pics of her on her personal ride.

Now that would be an interesting thread...

[Ligero]

(but i have a ti merckx that came out of litespeed's facility that simply had too many issues, indicating a lack of consistent quality control.)

The ti Merckx frames were not actually made by Litespeed. The tubes were cut and mitered at the Litespeed factory and then they were packed up with the dropouts and frame fittings and sent to the Merckx factory where they had them welded up by someone over there.

[Kirk Pacenti]

The ti Merckx frames were not actually made by Litespeed. The tubes were cut and mitered at the Litespeed factory and then they were packed up with the dropouts and frame fittings and sent to the Merckx factory where they had them welded up by someone over there.

That is only partially true. For the record, we did indeed ship raw materials to the Merckx factory. However, those materials were intended for bikes sold in Europe only. All Ti Merckx frames sold in the US were made in the US at the Litespeed facility. ;)

[michael white]

I feel like Litespeed sometimes gets a bad rap, like many of the larger companies, on forums.

For the record, I bought two of them. I still have one. I put them both through a lot of hard miles, and the only issue I ever had is chipped decals. I think they're well designed ti bikes, not "shyte" or whatever some of you guys say.

[rickygarni]

I agree with Michael. I have been using a Litespeed Blue Ridge as a commuter with 32mm tires since '99 and love it as a gutsy, utilitarian bike. Even survived a crash (when I was hit by a car wheel that came off the chassis at 50 mph) whereupon the wheels, shifters, handlebars and derailleurs were toast but the frame remained perfectly true.

The Lynskey, from test rides, impresses me as a gussied up (style and substance) Litespeed, which I think is great. I believe that Lynskey actually was still around in '99 when mine was produced (at least his name, in chipped decal, is on my tube.)

Were I to replace it, I would probably go Lynskey or Cervelo Soloist Team – I do love the 'ham and egg' / 'bread and 'butter' bike (almost lunchtime, hm?) of the people style bikes (albeit more expensive than the everyday fare.)

Ricky

[FlaRider]

Those Lynskey's can't even begin to compete with Serotta/Moots, etc as far as quality ti frames go, just trust me on this one.

You'd be a heck of a lot better off with a Legend...

Funny how things work around here. Someone "trashes" Lynskey publicly and no one complains; far from it, the usual suspects join in the fray hammering away....Hypocrisy at its finest boys and girls. I gather Steve doesn't carry Lynskey.

[Steve Hampsten]

Funny how things work around here. Someone "trashes" Lynskey publicly and no one complains; far from it, the usual suspects join in the fray hammering away....Hypocrisy at its finest boys and girls. I gather Steve doesn't carry Lynskey.

Who's hammering on Lynskey? I think they're fine bikes, and have said as much in this thread, as are Litespeeds.

I'm not too impressed with the thinking behind shaped tubing but it doesn't make it a worse frame - just not to my taste.

M'kay?

Clear now?

[William]

I haven't seen one up close and personal....but I think it's kinda cool. Love to try one just to see how it speaks to me.





William

[FlaRider]

Who's hammering on Lynskey? I think they're fine bikes, and have said as much in this thread, as are Litespeeds.

I'm not too impressed with the thinking behind shaped tubing but it doesn't make it a worse frame - just not to my taste.

M'kay?

Clear now?

Musgrave just trashed Lynskey without giving any specific reasons whatsoever. I don't see anyone flaming him like I was flamed yesterday. No vested interest today, perhaps?

[J.Greene]

Musgrave just trashed Lynskey without giving any specific reasons whatsoever. I don't see anyone flaming him like I was flamed yesterday. No vested interest today, perhaps?


comments edited

JG

[Steve Hampsten]

Musgrave just trashed Lynskey without giving any specific reasons whatsoever. I don't see anyone flaming him like I was flamed yesterday. No vested interest today, perhaps?

Exactly - Musgrave didn't get specific, he simply shared his opinion with us.

[FlaRider]

Exactly - Musgrave didn't get specific, he simply shared his opinion with us.

Oh, I see...I wouldn't have gotten flamed if I had said simply said "Parlee sucks" and left it at that? That makes a lot of sense. Thanks for clarifying.

[Archibald]

....................
http://www.be-a-wahm.com/images/temper-tantrum.jpg

[FlaRider]

....................

LOL! Made my day, Archie.

[musgravecycles]

Musgrave just trashed Lynskey without giving any specific reasons whatsoever. I don't see anyone flaming him like I was flamed yesterday. No vested interest today, perhaps?

atmo (according to MY opinion) Moots and Serotta are pretty close to the TOP of the Ti frame-game (unless you get in contact with a handful of bespoke custom-Ti builders). Just because I would classify a Lynskey or a Litespeed as a "second tier" level frame doesn't mean they are horrible bikes, their fine.

I have worked with, played mechanico on, and painted many Moots frames, lots of Serottas, and just about anything else out there. My opinions are based on my experiences with these and other frames, and aren't completely random. Just because I said a Serotta is a nicer Ti frame than the next one doesn't mean that the next one is a POS...

[Polyglot]

atmo (according to MY opinion) Moots and Serotta are pretty close to the TOP of the Ti frame-game (unless you get in contact with a handful of bespoke custom-Ti builders). Just because I would classify a Lynskey or a Litespeed as a "second tier" level frame doesn't mean they are horrible bikes, their fine.

I have worked with, played mechanico on, and painted many Moots frames, lots of Serottas, and just about anything else out there. My opinions are based on my experiences with these and other frames, and aren't completely random. Just because I said a Serotta is a nicer Ti frame than the next one doesn't mean that the next one is a POS...

Your backpedaling from your original claims is remarkable, especially as it does appear that you are beholden to Moots and Serotta to a certain extent, as they represent a business interest to you. FLaRider isn't completely wrong with his comments. In hindsight, your comments do appear to be a gratuitous blackslap and certainly don't seem to further the knowledge base of the forum. My Colnago CT2 (titanium with carbon rear end) works just fine in all the ways that are important to me and the bike was free, so what more could I ask for? I would however never say it is the best bike around or that another bike is necessarily not the perfect bike for somebody else, as every bike is a compromise. Depending on where you priorities lie, different features or differences become more or less important. The art in selecting a bike is knowing what you want and recognizing the differences between bikes. If you are not capable of doing this, the sole deciding factor left is aesthetics, and even aesthetics are fraught with taste... All bikes are good if they give pleasure and encourage people to get out and ride. Some people need to spend lots of money to get satisfaction, others need perfect welds, others need a geometry that is just so, others need a particular brand of component... to each his own.

Truth be told, the Lynskey family is responsible, directly or indirectly, for the building of more Ti frames, than are Serotta and Moots combined. They can continue to be in the business and be successful in that they supply a product that apparently serves their riders well. I would therefore not be at all hesitant to recommend one of their frames to anybody. At the same time, I don't see myself pulling out my own money to buy one of their products any time soon (ditto for a Moots or Serotta Ti). Were I to ever go whole hog and spend big bucks on a tier one or tier two Ti frame (to use Musgravecycles terminology), I would go all the way and get myself a Passoni, otherwise I would prefer getting 99% of the performance for 50% or less of the cost.

[Steve Hampsten]

Hello?

Everyone?

Almost anybody building titanium these days has probably been doing it for a long, long time - somewhere. Nobody builds crap. You may not like everything you see but ti frames nowadays are soooo much better than most were even ten years ago

We should give all of these guys masive props for staying in a business that is not always terribly rewarding. I whinge about shaped and butted tubes and silly solutions but the skill, expertise, and technology behind it is huge - just try to make one yourself

go ahead - try it

see? can't be done

[Frank]

SNIPPED "I whinge about shaped and butted tubes..." SNIPPED and "I'm not too impressed with the thinking behind shaped tubing"

From the Serotta website: Only Serottas have the extensive engineering of our proprietary Colorado Concept tubing design. It's the foundation behind the unique ride of each and every Serotta...

[Steve Hampsten]

Exactly.

The engineering that goes into making and swaging/shaping titanium tubes is incredible.

Capiche?

[Fivethumbs]

+1

And as far as the paint: Too many of their paint jobs remind me of '70s-era conversion vans.

http://www.showtrux.com/showvans/battlestar/images/avanonea.jpg

http://www.showtrux.com/showvans/tonysvan/images/a2.jpg

Not my cuppa, atmo...

I would buy one but only if it came with a sticker that said, "If this Lynskey's rockin' don't bother knockin'."

[musgravecycles]

Snipped.


Look, the OP basically said "I have a choice between bike A and bike B, which should I get?" He's not going to buy both bikes. He's got a choice to make and one will come home. Just because he takes one home over the other doesn't mean that the other is a bad bike.

I have no business connection to either Serotta, Moots, or any other manufacture for that matter. Heck, I don't even paint frames anymore and the last Ti frame that I painted was a Litespeed Palmares last fall. If I had any connection to any of the players of this thread it would be the Lynskey's, and I agree with you 110% that they are mostly responsible for the Ti frame as we know it today. And I also agree with you on your frame selection piece (though I have no idea how your free 'nago got mixed in).

I worked in a frame/paint shop for a long time and painted a lot of bikes. I'd like to think that I've developed a pretty good understanding of the frames I've worked with. I'm sorry if my opinion came across strong, but given the choice between those two bikes I'd pick the Serotta every time (after all didn't the OP ask for informed opinions)...

[FlaRider]

Look, the OP basically said "I have a choice between bike A and bike B, which should I get?" He's not going to buy both bikes. He's got a choice to make and one will come home. Just because he takes one home over the other doesn't mean that the other is a bad bike.

I have no business connection to either Serotta, Moots, or any other manufacture for that matter. Heck, I don't even paint frames anymore and the last Ti frame that I painted was a Litespeed Palmares last fall. If I had any connection to any of the players of this thread it would be the Lynskey's, and I agree with you 110% that they are mostly responsible for the Ti frame as we know it today. And I also agree with you on your frame selection piece (though I have no idea how your free 'nago got mixed in).

I worked in a frame/paint shop for a long time and painted a lot of bikes. I'd like to think that I've developed a pretty good understanding of the frames I've worked with. I'm sorry if my opinion came across strong, but given the choice between those two bikes I'd pick the Serotta every time (after all didn't the OP ask for informed opinions)...

Understood. However, it is uncalled-for, irresponsible and unacceptable to trash Lynskey without first giving them an opportunity to respond ;) Right, Len?

[FlaRider]

comments edited

JG

Hey, Jon, hope to see you at the Boca Raton TT series some day so we can knock heads...I will bring my aero bottle :D

[Len J]

Understood. However, it is uncalled-for, irresponsible and unacceptable to trash Lynskey without first giving them an opportunity to respond ;) Right, Len?

trashing Lynsky....rather, I saw them as praising Serotta over Lynsky. I see a difference here......don;t you?

Len

[FlaRider]

Those Lynskey's can't even begin to compete with Serotta/Moots, etc as far as quality ti frames go, just trust me on this one.

You'd be a heck of a lot better off with a Legend...


Disagree, Len.

[musgravecycles]

trashing Lynsky....rather, I saw them as praising Serotta over Lynsky. I see a difference here......don;t you?

Len

To borrow a phrase, Len gets it...

I might have come across pretty harsh in my original post but what I've been trying to amend all along is what Len J said.

It wasn't so much a trash of one as praise to another...
:banana:

[J.Greene]

Hey, Jon, hope to see you at the Boca Raton TT series some day so we can knock heads...I will bring my aero bottle :D

edited

JG

[FlaRider]

To borrow a phrase, Len gets it...

I might have come across pretty harsh in my original post but what I've been trying to amend all along is what Len J said.

It wasn't so much a trash of one as praise to another...
:banana:


Concur. I hereby amend all my posts in the Parlee vs. Meivici thread to read as extolling the virtues of the Meivici and not a trash of Parlee. :banana: :banana:

[Serotta PETE]

There are so many good riding bikes out there...buy and more important RIDE what puts the biggest smile on your face.

I side with Steve Hampsten on not being a fan of the "shaped" tubing AND I also am very biased on SEROTTA LEGEND AND CONCOURS :D He (Steve) in no way thrashed anyone but just gave an opinion as I did.

I also smile when I see a Hampsten, Kellogg, Moots, etc.......ti....they are very nice!!

There are many very nice frames out there and the builders are caring and want to sell a quality product that reflects their skill and reputation. Additionally many of them share their knowledge and experiences with us on the FORUM. They love the sport and go out of there way not to use this site to trash anothers product or to market their brand.....

We can learn from them and by their example....

Just got back from a great HOT ride on my LEGEND....wish you were here to ride with me.... ;) ;) ;)

PETE

[dleroy]

Although I'm still on the fence (Serotta/Lynskey) I just wanted to thank all who participated in the spirited debate that my original post provoked. And, for what its worth, I wanted to let you know I tried out a demo Lynskey level 4 at a LBS and found it very nice indeed! Cheers!

[weiwentg]

To borrow a phrase, Len gets it...

I might have come across pretty harsh in my original post but what I've been trying to amend all along is what Len J said.

It wasn't so much a trash of one as praise to another...
:banana:

Those Lynskey's can't even begin to compete with Serotta/Moots, etc as far as quality ti frames go, just trust me on this one.

You'd be a heck of a lot better off with a Legend...


I dunno, it sounds like praising one, trashing another to me. additionally, you claimed you wanted to provide an "informed" opinion to the OP, but you never said if you'd ridden a Lynskey... which brings into question exactly how "informed" your opinion is.

of course, Pete McKeon's post (first as Serotta Pete) was a little more egregious. it's a bit like John Mackey posting as rahodeb on Yahoo finance, and then saying that he posted his personal opinion, not the company's opinion ... sometimes, the CEO's opinion and the company's opinion can't be separated.

I don't own a Lynskey, but I do own a Seven ... I wonder if someone will say it "can't even begin to compete" with some other manufacturer.

[mikki]

"of course, Pete McKeon's post (first as Serotta Pete) was a little more egregious. it's a bit like John Mackey posting as rahodeb on Yahoo finance, and then saying that he posted his personal opinion, not the company's opinion ... sometimes, the CEO's opinion and the company's opinion can't be separated. " Weiwentg
********************
Tend to agree with you Weiwentg...Good thing Serotta isn't publicly traded stock!! IMO someone from a company has the right to speak their opinion as long as it is clear they are a part of the company. Doesn't negate what they have to say whatsoever; just keeps everything in the open. I came pretty close to buying a custom Serotta, so obviously I think they are a great company and that Pete is definately a great guy IMO. So don't go misconstruing meanings here.
:cool:

[soulspinner]

Does Lynsky actually butt their frames or is it all straight guage?

[mosca]

While you can say that both Serotta and Lynskey use “shaped” tubing, it occurs to me that their approaches could not be more different from one another.

The subtle manipulations that go into the “Colorado Concept” tubing are clearly intended to improve the ride characteristics more than anything else. The visual impact is minimal, in fact there are probably a lot of Legend owners out there who have no idea about the tube manipulations that went into their frame (I’ve met a few of these).

The Lynskey tubing, on the other hand, seems designed primarily to establish some sort of “brand identity”, in much the same way that an car company would create a distinctive grille shape. Nothing wrong with that, and I certainly can’t argue with those who love their Lynskeys, but for me there is absolutely no question which company has the superior philosophy.

[J.Greene]

of course, Pete McKeon's post (first as Serotta Pete) was a little more egregious. it's a bit like John Mackey posting as rahodeb on Yahoo finance, and then saying that he posted his personal opinion, not the company's opinion ... sometimes, the CEO's opinion and the company's opinion can't be separated.

wow!!! how can anyone compare the intentions of serotta pete/pete on a bicycle mesage board to a corporate ceo with an alias on an investment board? The dude deserves accolades not this kind of treatment.

JG

[michael white]

While you can say that both Serotta and Lynskey use “shaped” tubing, it occurs to me that their approaches could not be more different from one another.

The subtle manipulations that go into the “Colorado Concept” tubing are clearly intended to improve the ride characteristics more than anything else. The visual impact is minimal, in fact there are probably a lot of Legend owners out there who have no idea about the tube manipulations that went into their frame (I’ve met a few of these).

The Lynskey tubing, on the other hand, seems designed primarily to establish some sort of “brand identity”, in much the same way that an car company would create a distinctive grille shape. Nothing wrong with that, and I certainly can’t argue with those who love their Lynskeys, but for me there is absolutely no question which company has the superior philosophy.

This post is bs. Lynskey has done just about every trick in the book in terms of wringing performance out of a ti tube, and has pioneered many of them. Yes, he uses butting, shaping, tapering, surface treatment and everything else ever invented with the material. If you feel there's one of those strategies that lacks design integrity, say so, give examples. Otherwise, you're just continuing a pattern of slamming one brand and praising another in general, sophomoric terms, and for reasons, I have to assume, which remain personal and unstated.

mw

[mosca]

Serotta’s tubing shapes make sense to me in terms of how the frame is loaded and where you would want extra strength and stiffness vs. where you might want a little give. Round tube sections are generally understood to be stronger in torsion which makes sense in the main triangle of a bicycle frame. Their approach is the opposite of superficial.

If you have any information regarding why those diamond-shaped tubes in the Lynskey frames might offer superior performance in any way, please let me know, and I say this sincerely as a student of frame design. I have not found any reasonable functional justification for those tube sections, and believe me I’ve tried. This is not to say that the Lynskey designs would ride badly – there is certainly an amount of leeway in frame construction that many different designs can be made to ride acceptably, just as the grille on a Mercedes will cool the engine just as well as the grille on a BMW. I dig the variety, but I’ll say it again – there’s really no contest here in IMHO.

[michael white]

Serotta’s tubing shapes make sense to me in terms of how the frame is loaded and where you would want extra strength and stiffness vs. where you might want a little give. Round tube sections are generally understood to be stronger in torsion which makes sense in the main triangle of a bicycle frame. Their approach is the opposite of superficial.

If you have any information regarding why those diamond-shaped tubes in the Lynskey frames might offer superior performance in any way, please let me know, and I say this sincerely as a student of frame design. I have not found any reasonable functional justification for those tube sections, and believe me I’ve tried. This is not to say that the Lynskey designs would ride badly – there is certainly an amount of leeway in frame construction that many different designs can be made to ride acceptably, just as the grille on a Mercedes will cool the engine just as well as the grille on a BMW. I dig the variety, but I’ll say it again – there’s really no contest here in IMHO.

neither of my Lynskey-designed Litespeeds had or have any diamond shapes. One does have a downtube with a bit of geometric shaping. But both frames are made of almost completely round tubing. I am personally drawn to classically-shaped bikes, and that's why I bought these bikes. Lynskey has, as has been pointed out, been responsible for more ti bikes than any other builder, in just about every style and genre imaginable. That's the Lynskey "brand identity" imho--the wide range, the forward-thinking engineering, and the value. Minus the boutique "halo" that other brands might require to compete.

mw

[mosca]

wrt Litespeed, I would agree about the wide range and value aspects of their brand image, but I fail to see the "forward thinking" in their approach. To me it seemed like they were very focused on creating "variety" in their lineup rather than focusing on refining the ride. There is a definite love of bicycles that is apparent with the so-called "boutique brands" that sets them apart, whereas Litespeed always came across more like a business to me. But if you have 'em and like 'em, that's cool. Many people do.

[michael white]

checking with the Lynskey site, it appears the level 4 frame uses extensive shaping somewhat like the Vortex. Levels 1 and 2 are all round; 1 is the only straight-gauge frame. Level 3 looks like it might use some shaping, but not diamond-shaped. What I'm pointing out is that your generalization of Lynskey's bikes as diamond-shaped has nothing to do with Lynskey bikes. Your argument is based on some vague idea you have, and that lack of respect (based, unfortunately, on ignorance) for people in the bike world who have most certainly paid their dues and advanced the cause, frankly, angers me. I have a Merlin now, with all round tubes, and it's really nice too. All my bikes are nice. They are ALL made by really smart people who knew what they were doing, and that includes Lynskey.

over and out. back off.

[mosca]

re the decision between Lynskey vs. Serotta, I choose Serotta. My reasons are clearly stated already, so if you choose to call me ignorant, well, I'm not sure why all the hostility. My only dig at Lynskey was that their use of shaped tubing in their higher end models makes no sense to me, and I'm still open for someone to give me a reasonable explanation for it.

I'd really hate for this discussion to degenerate any further.

[Steve Hampsten]

Jeez, you're both right - chill.

Maybe this would be a good time to end this thread?

[Serotta PETE]

+1,

I have a good bottle of red to anyone that can tell me how we can get along and co-exist. I promise I will not use a pseudo name. (I have hard enough time with my own name and my speeelling is terrriable.)

THanks PETE


Jeez, you're both right - chill.

Maybe this would be a good time to end this thread?

[Steve Hampsten]

Pete,

I'm drinking a lovely oak barrel-aged bottle of Montecucco Sangiovese from 2003 (courtesy of my bro - no wine fool, he) - I'll save you a bottle for the next time we meet.

sh

[Serotta PETE]

I am holding you to it!!! Is there another ride before the MARCH CAMP???

Please....

If I can get my wife out to Seattle, I will have the wine and if you have a "loaner" bike for me (like that great looking green PEG) I will be in heaven... :D



Pete,

I'm drinking a lovely oak barrel-aged bottle of Montecucco Sangiovese from 2003 (courtesy of my bro - no wine fool, he) - I'll save you a bottle for the next time we meet.

sh

[bhungerford]

Not sure if you've already made a decision, don't think you can go wrong either way, but here's a review on Pez about the Lynskey...

http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/?pg=fullstory&id=5142&status=True

[benb]

That was a great article... fantastic job by the Pez guy and very cool that Lynskey showed him around so much. (Though that seems to be standard)

And goes to show Serotta needs to do more marketing of a similar type.

The build/design process & tooling looks pretty bare bones compared to Serotta's, and makes you think Lynskey's margins must be much higher if the frames are comparably priced, even though shaping the tubes so much must eat into some of that.

Seeing the pics of the welds in the 6/4 tubes also confirms my feeling & the writing of others that I'm glad to have 3/2.5 Ti without a seam.

For clarifications... only going on the article and pictures...

- No fancy alignment table shown
- No indication alignment is checked after each tack and before finishing a weld
- Butting setup looked less precise
- No fancy CNCing
- No X/Y table for more precise alignment
- Seams in tubing
- Many tools & shaping seem to be hand operated as opposed to computer controlled & programmed
- No showing of experimental stages to justify design, such as destructive testing, strain gauges, measurement, etc..
- Definitely a feel of trial & error and built up knowledge as opposed to hard core engineering

Definitely not the same level of operation, take it for you will, and IMO Serotta does a poor job of getting this across in it's marketing. Though maybe it will just fly over the head of lots of riders.. as an engineer it speaks to me.

Your preference will also probably be affected by your feelings on doing everything by hand as opposed to the value of newer computer/robotic manufacturing. (Nothing at Serotta I saw really qualified as a robot though.. at least for Ti stuff)

[chrisroph]

cool article, looks like a lot of thought goes into each bike.

[soulspinner]

cool article, looks like a lot of thought goes into each bike.

+ 1

[Ligero]

The build/design process & tooling looks pretty bare bones compared to Serotta's, and makes you think Lynskey's margins must be much higher if the frames are comparably priced, even though shaping the tubes so much must eat into some of that.

I am confused on how you can determine margins from pictures of tooling?

- No fancy alignment table shown

It is there just not shown in pictures

- No indication alignment is checked after each tack and before finishing a weld

The frame is tacked then alignment is checked but again not shown in the pictures

- Butting setup looked less precise

Can't comment on this because I have not seen how Serotta does it.

- No fancy CNCing

It is there just not shown in the pictures, those dropouts and brake bridge were not made by hand.

- No X/Y table for more precise alignment

It is there just not shown in the pictures

- Seams in tubing

Just in the 6/4 tubes and almost all 6/4 tubes are seamed tubes. Seamed tubes are not bad, almost all of True Temper tubes are seamed and you don't see anyone complaining about them.

- Many tools & shaping seem to be hand operated as opposed to computer controlled & programmed

Not sure how this is a bad thing, in fact I would think it would cut into there margins.

- No showing of experimental stages to justify design, such as destructive testing, strain gauges, measurement, etc..

Who actually shows any of those?

- Definitely a feel of trial & error and built up knowledge as opposed to hard core engineering

You decided that based on what? I don't see how you could determine how they design and test a frame by a pictorial of a frame being built.

[benb]

Huh?

If they've got all the more expensive and sophisticated tooling why wouldn't they have shown it to the Pez guy?

It makes NO sense at all. If you've been to Lynskey and have seen all the fancy stuff I'll take your word on it.

However if Lynskey has that stuff, then my opinion of the article changes, it's a horrible article as it gives the impression they're less sophisticated then they may be.

If you haven't seen the way Serotta does it then I can understand you questioning my post.. but there is no comparison from those pictures.. it's not even in the same ballpark.

[bhungerford]

i can't get the website working right now ( i think my IT department is wise to me spending 7 hours a day looking at cycling stuff! :rolleyes: ) BUT...the Pez does have two reviews of Serottas, an Ottrot and a Nove, they're a bit older, but under their "tech n spec" interesting articles/reviews also

[Ligero]

Huh?

If they've got all the more expensive and sophisticated tooling why wouldn't they have shown it to the Pez guy?

It makes NO sense at all. If you've been to Lynskey and have seen all the fancy stuff I'll take your word on it.

However if Lynskey has that stuff, then my opinion of the article changes, it's a horrible article as it gives the impression they're less sophisticated then they may be.

If you haven't seen the way Serotta does it then I can understand you questioning my post.. but there is no comparison from those pictures.. it's not even in the same ballpark.

I have been there, they are about 5 miles away from me. The article is written to show that it is not a huge company and more personal. Also the article can only be so long so you have to pick and choose what pictures you put in and what you leave out.

I have seen a few pictures of the Serotta facility and it is impressive but I don't see how it would mean that there frames are better.

[bhungerford]

Here's the Serotta articles/reviews:

http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/?pg=fullstory&id=3554

http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/default.asp?pg=fullstory&id=2698

i think the Pez does a pretty good job with the reivews, gives you a bit more than the company line, and cool pictures too..