Ullrich in shape

[Johny]

http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2004/jun04/tourdesuisse04/?id=results/stage9

[coylifut]

I know this so after the fact, but Armstong Inc. has been saying all along that an in-form Ulrich is who they expect to show up in July. Who knows better than them. I love the tour and the fact that it takes a more robust man to win it. Merckx, the Badger, Big Mig, it takes men like these to win it multiple times. A scrawny climber will sneak in ocasionaly and snatch a year here and there, but to do it over and over, you got to be a real hard-man. I'd go on, but my two daughters just informed me that we are going to father's day dinner. See ya!

[Suede J Flava]

Don't be illin' which me 'bout this German twizzle name Ullrich. Lancey be our man. Don't be dissin' Lancey round here. And don't be callin' our homeboy Armstrong. He be Lance. How many you win this year Lance? Fo? Fi? Nah baby, Six or nothin' holmes! We got Lance in our pants up here, yo!

[Sandy]

Those are some remarkably powerful looking legs. Look as if they were chiseled out of clay.


Sandy

[Dr. Doofus]

did andy walser slope that tt slightly to make it look more giant-esque?

speaking of giants, the doc started re-reading gargantua today...rab-cats french is a pain in the ass, but man that **** is funny

[coylifut]

Stay away from the shizolator

[Too Tall]

Oh crap now every clubracerboy will mount their brakes backwards. Sigh.

[Kevin]

The legs look pretty ripped. Let the speculation on "juice" begin.

Kevin

[Tom]

That what's-her-name that used to work for Armstrong is now supplying makeup to Ullrich to draw in the muscle definition. He's still Torte Boy in secret.

[Climb01742]

how does jan go from doughboy to mr ripped in two months? and is it a coincidence that he hasn't been near a drug control (meaning no races) during those months? :confused:

[Tom Robison]

how does jan go from doughboy to mr ripped in two months? and is it a coincidence that he hasn't been near a drug control (meaning no races) during those months? :confused:

Ahhh...Better living through chemistry. ;)

[Bruce H.]

Most all of us want Lance to come through and win #6. But the favoritism is incredible.
1- I would prefer he is victorious over the best riders who arrive at the starting line in the best physical condition.
2- Let's give credit where it is due. Jan is one hell of an athelete. He is and has been the second best bicycle rider in the world for many years.
3- Let's slow down on the obvious venemous disappointment that drugs have provided to us the fans. Remember we are not riding for incredible amounts of time under tremendous physical and mental duress with all the potential for failure that these incredible atheletic specimens will undertake.
4- On a personal note, those are the first set of muscles I have seen, that defined on a cyclist, since I saw John Howard in 1985. Man I would be more jealous except I never had the time or devotion those guys have had to develop them. (Whatever happened to John Howard?).
Finally I hope this is a very highly contested and difficult Tour, so we can see who the best rider is by the Champs.. Go Lance!
Bruce H

[Climb01742]

see the new "esquire" for some photos of lance. one shot in particular: lower part of lance's legs shot from the back. no fat there.

[BumbleBeeDave]

I thought that was Sandy at Owner's Weekend! . . . ;)

BBDave

[TmcDet]

I thought that was Sandy at Owner's Weekend! . . . ;)

BBDave

from what I have heard the pink would lean more to it being Bill Bove but maybe he stole Sandy's leg

[bpm]

I truly hope the speculation in this thread that Jan is juiced is a joke. A lot of people are quick to jump to Armstrong's defense when someone accuses him so let's see the same for Ulrich. Until he tests positive, or until someone can show irrefutable proof that he is doping, he should be given the benefit of the doubt.

And to reply to the fact that he hasn't been near drug controls for the past two months, I'd say that's probably not true. Remember that pros can be tested anytime, anywhere, whether they are racing or not (that's how Ulrich got nabbed for doing ecstasy). Although I don't know for sure, it's reasonable to believe that he has been tested at least once in the past couple of months.

If I'm jumping to conclusions about the meaning of people's comments, I apologize.

[Climb01742]

bpm--you're right that both lance and jan deserve the same benefit of the doubt. but i do think there is one big difference between the two riders. lance's fitness doesn't seem to peak and valley nearly to the extent that jan's does. in early season races, lance is competitive, not often victorious, but competitive. jan, on the other hand, gets pummeled. so to me, lance peaking in july seems more probable than jan doing so. granted, jan finishing second five times and winning once testifies to his ability. but making such dramatic progress in such a short amount of time does raise at least one question: if jan is capable of improving his fitness so dranatically, why not stay relatively fit all year, and then kick it up to level that not even lance could match? as you point out, none of this makes jan guilty. but it is interesting.

[weisan]

I think the thread started off as "Jan in Shape". Looking at the picture posted, I don't know of any drugs out there that could produce that type of muscle definition other than someone who did his homework and rides a lot. Steroids are counter-productive to cycling as they build extra bulks and unnecessary mass especially when it comes to climbing the Alps and the Pyrenees.

Jerk said something a while back in one of the dope-related threads which as I think more of it makes a lot of sense. Riders dope more for the purpose of recovery in between hard stages. For a long drawn-out three-weeks race, it can take a lot out of a human body. The one who wins is the one who can recover better than anyone else, not necessarily the best climber or the best sprinter, or even the best time-trialist.

weisan

[bpm]

climb - you're right that Ullrich's fitness seems to be pretty inconsistent throughout the year and his ability to get fit so quickly is interesting. I've always thought his off-season and early season poor form was likely due to poor training, coaching, or motivation. Seeing how quickly he can get in shape and his tour record definitely are a testament to his physical abilities. If Ullrich didn't go through the peaks and valleys that he normally does each year, he could probably have won the tour a couple more times, or at least made the race closer in a couple of years.

[bostondrunk]

Maybe you guys should just accept that almost all pros dope. Regardless, I still think they are amazing, genetic freaks.
As for the photo, big deal, its a shot of him with his muscles flexed, lots of top pros have good muscle tone like that. I hear Roy does too..

[zap]

I guess everyone has forgotten how Lemond and Indurain had difficulties maintaining weight and fitness during the off season. Maybe Jan doesn't ride well in the cold? Maybe Lance needs to stay in shape year round in order to ride the tdf well while others can ramp up faster? Possibly Lance has more heart to fight through pain. I don't know...

Let the Tour begin and hope that the Tour contenders don't crash in the first week.

:beer:

[bpm]

Maybe you guys should just accept that almost all pros dope. Regardless, I still think they are amazing, genetic freaks.
As for the photo, big deal, its a shot of him with his muscles flexed, lots of top pros have good muscle tone like that. I hear Roy does too..

I believe that doping does exist and probably more than we all care to believe. But, I think that if "almost all pros dope", we would see a lot more positive tests than we do. I don't know the actual statistics, but there really aren't that many positive drug tests in pro cycling.

[bostondrunk]

Its pretty simple. You cycle the growth hormone, clenbuterol, or whatever it is you are using in such a way that it is out of your system by the time you get to the races where you may get tested.
Just like the boys do in the 'Natural' body building competitions....

[bpm]

Its pretty simple. You cycle the growth hormone, clenbuterol, or whatever it is you are using in such a way that it is out of your system by the time you get to the races where you may get tested.
Just like the boys do in the 'Natural' body building competitions....

You have to remember that these guys are tested out of competition quite frequently. I don't think they'd typically be dumb enough to get caught at a race with drugs in their system, but I still stand by the statement that if "everyone is doping" we'd see more positive tests, primarily from the out of competition tests.

[fjaws]

how does jan go from doughboy to mr ripped in two months? and is it a coincidence that he hasn't been near a drug control (meaning no races) during those months? :confused:

These guys don't have to go to a race to get drug tested. Ullrich was caught last time by an "out-of-season" random test. Are you already lining up the excuses for an Armstrong loss? :eek:

[shinomaster]

Fat is relative.. Ullrich has never had a belly like some have in the Owners weekend pix...But for a tour rider he gets softer than he should. I have never seen a picture of Ullrich when he looked "Fat"...When you ride as much as they do how long would it take to drop 10 pounds?

[alembical]

I think that competive world class athletes must peak, Lance even does so to some extent. Bodies need recovery time to heal and rest, and therefore it is not viable for an athlete to be in top shape or form year round. Some say that Lance does it, but Lance's out of shape is just a little better than his competitions out of shape. What really matters is the shape that their bodies are in come race day. You might have strong muscles, but it is a long race, that sees lots of competitors lost over the course through sicknesses and other sorenesses.

Alembical

Go Lance... and Jan, Tyler, Mayo..... Give us a great race to watch.

[Bill Bove]

[QUOTE=shinomaster] Ullrich has never had a belly like some have in the Owners weekend pix... Hey Shino!! I resemble that remark!!! Actually I have seen photo's of Jan with a pretty good donut around his waist that he has managed to work off during the early season.

[Michael Testa]

I don't believe that there is a reliable test for the presence of extra growth hormone in one's system. Further, athletes knowledge and ability to take performance enhancing drugs and NOT test positive for said substances is ALMOST ALWAYS ahead of the available testing methods in place.

Bostondrunk seems to really know what he is talking about as well.

[bostondrunk]

I wouldn't call myself an expert... ;)
But I used to have a lot of body builder friends, so I learned a -lot- about drugs, cycles, etc. People don't realize the host of other drugs athletes use besides steroids and growth hormone. Clenbuterol, Lasix, insulin, corticosteroids, thyroid drugs, codeine, amphetamines, cocaine. And with regards to anabolics, there are several different ones, that give different types of results. Dbol makes you big, Primo cuts you up, Winstrol is in between, etc.
And with regards to random drug tests, well....who knows, I'm willing to bet that most these guys have an idea of when they are at risk of being tested. How often do we hear about someone testing positive outside of a race? And for all we know, Ulrich may not have even thought that he was gonna test positive for anything they were looking for since it was more of a party thing he did.
Anyways, I respect pro riders regardless. They do what they need to do to compete and make a living, and are still the most gifted athletes in the world, IMHO.

[Michael Testa]

Bostondrunk, I happen to know a great deal about bodybuilding, both "natural" and "untested". Oh yeah, they do test for diuretics at SOME competitions, but Lasix is a mainstay amongst competitive bodybuilders. They need to shed those last 2-4 lbs. of water retention somehow.

FYI, I do not compete, but have many friends that compete in both "natural" and "untested" events.

[my2cents]

i disagree that riders know when they are going to be tested. If you look at one of tyler's diary entries from this winter, he will learn that they showed up at his house unannounced. he was 100 something miles away visiting a friend -- he had 3 hours to drive home thru a snow storm or be found in violation of the rules. no excuses, no 2nd chances. tyler forgot to notify the commission as to his whereabouts (which the riders i guess are supposed to do at all times) and thus had to make the daring ride home.

as much as people like bostondrunk like to minimize the control efforts (based at least partly on what happen in other sports), i am of the belief that if the top riders abused illegal substances to the extent that some people like to speculate, there would be many many more positive results than there have been.

[bostondrunk]

I will respectfully say that anyone who thinks most pro riders are clean are being very naive. Geez, the riders themselves say that almost all of them use.
And I'm not trying to downplay the control efforts. But if they really wanted to make it work, then as soon as a rider tests positive, why not just ban them for life?

[my2cents]

i disagree with your (bsotondrunk) contention that 'most' pro riders say that 'most' pro riders dope. if this were true then 'most' would be admitting that they dope. i have never heard lance, or eki, or tyler or jan, or dozens of other well known riders make such claims. I think the cheats make the claim and i think that some disillusioned riders make the claim, but a better generalization i think would be that 'many' riders think 'some' riders dope.

also, i am not naive (after doing sports documentaries, i started a company focused on healthy living and preventing substance abuse starting with children in elementary school, so i am/was pretty well versed in the problems of substance abuse, including the problems in sports); i am just not willing to accept your gross mischaraterizations of what is 'known' versus what you speculate may be the case.

[bostondrunk]

Then I guess we disagree about what is -known-.

[William]

Looking at the picture posted, I don't know of any drugs out there that could produce that type of muscle definition other than someone who did his homework and rides a lot.

I was a competitive rower before I got into competitive cycling. I have to tell you that getting ripped at that level of training is not hard to do. If you're eating right, training hard, and getting proper recovery, it's almost scary how shredded you can get (without doping).

As far as weather the pros are doping or not, I'll leave that up to the guys doing the testing.


William

[Sandy]

Bee Man,

If I had legs like that, then I would really bee:


Supersonic Serotta Sandy

[jerk]

jan ullrich is one of the very few clean riders in the peloton. which is odd as he is an east german. his body does not take kindly to performance enhancing drugs due either to his head or something in hios internal system. supposidly he got really sick as a kid anytime they put him on weird diets or drugs and for this reason he tends to take the winter off and recuperates at a more natural body weight. (by the way fat winter jan is a hell of lot skinnier than the jerk and most of you guys on your best days)
to answer the good docter and the mouse in his pocket: that time trial bike is not a walser but is in fact a giant. jan is not allowed to use the walser untill the tour per contract arrangements which forced testing to issue conclusive proof that the walser was faster. these tests were conducted a couple of weeks ago in a swiss wind tunnel and on an indoor velodrome with srm cranks. giant paid for these tests and guess what....the walser was measurably faster. jan will be on the walser by the time the big one comes around. from what the jerk hears it will be labelled "t-mobile" rather than giant as (to quote andy walser) "the chinamen are too proud".

jerk (why the hell do i know this stupid shiiit?)

[gt6267a]

jerk (why the hell do i know this stupid shiiit?)

i'm glad you do and share. it makes for interesting reading.

as this thread seems to go more and more into a topic we have discussed at length, how about a new direction:

with all the effort put into road bikes and TT bikes, I think it would be interesting to see the data on a number of bikes. trek madone, trek TT, giant ocr, giant TT, walser, legend and maybe a few more.

how big a difference is there in performance between any of these bikes? what consists "measurably faster" ?

in the tests the jerk is talking about, i'd be interested to know if it was the wind tunnel data or watts that made the difference. of course, a test based upon watts could be biased:

this brings me to another idea, with all the talk of performance between equipment, most of the data provided to end users is subjective. true, the feel of a bike, handling, comfort, etc. etc. these are all subjective topics anyway. but, when it comes to power transfered to the road, is there not a way to be objective. of course, to do this, one would have to take the animal out of the equation. is this ever done? or is not done because the difference is minimal even between a frame considered flexy vs stiff?

[vaxn8r]

There are not many more positive results because much of what is being used is not testable. Testing technology runs far, far behind what is available for pros for use. Some things just can not be tested for at all. There is no test for HGH. Likewise, the anabolics, the good stuff is water soluable. You're simply not going to catch these guys. That is the reason there are not more positives. They can't even catch guys doing EPO. No test for it so they run hematocrits. Pretty lame but there just isn't much they can do.


I saw pics of Ulrich from last winter and he looked good then. He did not balloon up this year as much as in prior years. Look at his photos in Cycle Sport from the the Tour announcement. His face looked...lean and mean.

[Michael Testa]

The Jerk's response regarding Ullrich being one of the clean pros in the peloton makes a lot of sense if one truly thinks about it. When one is a "natural" athlete, "peaking" becomes much harder to do. Therefore, Jan simply cannot stay in top shape for the entire year. It is actually a very healthy route for him to take to get a bit "out of shape" (relative to whom?) and then attempt to "peak" for the Tour. Attempting to stay in top shape year round for the natural athlete would leave them with a very low bodyfat, which would subject them to a higher risk of injury and suppress their immune system.

There have been a lot of good points made in this thread. I am not accusing anyone of doping, anabolics, etc. However, I am not naive to believe that most do not employ these measures. Further, I do not blame them. They are at the top of their respective games, and an extra 1% is the difference between winning and losing.

[Climb01742]

according to chris carmichael, lance tries, in the off season, to not let his fitness fall below 20% of his in-season peak. i'd be curious what jan's off-season fitness falls to? kenyan distance runners typically take a month off in the fall, not running even one step.

if jan is, as the jerk says, clean, then it gives one hope that a) it is possible to race at that level and be clean; and b) that lance is part of that club.

i may be naive and dopey (mentally not chemically) but being able to believe that lance is doing it clean makes me smile. maybe its a character weakness, but i like having people to look up to. i admire lance a lot. here's hoping his feet aren't made of clay.

[Michael Testa]

Climb,

There is nothing wrong with hero worship. When I found out a certain "natural" bodybuilding competitor had used 'roids in the past, it opened my eyes, and unfortunately, made me a cynic.

[bostondrunk]

Its hard to ignore certain facts though...
I mean, after Willy's book, after all the drug raids over the last few years, after riders naming names, after accusations of Carmichael doping the US junior teams a while back, Lance claiming that he has 'never tested positive', but not that he has never doped....
Is Jan clean? I have no freakin idea, and sorry, but I don't believe that the jerk knows either. But I'm pretty damn confident that most of them dope. But as I've said (and as testa has said), I still think these guys are amazing regardless. Even without the doping, they are so far above the typical bike racer..
And lets not forget about caffeine suppositories!! Woohoo!!!

Did they do drug testing at the Serotta open house? Did Roy fail???

[gt6267a]

"Ullrich is a beast," Jeker said. "He was climbing the passes with the big ring and I couldn't do anything against that."

the BIG ring? diesel! dude. the man has won the tour and is an accomplished cyclist, woooow be if for me to challenge his technique, but does this not fly in the face of popular wisdom, and 5x winning wisdom at that?

-k

[my2cents]

during my ride last night, i was thinking about this thread a bit. one reason many people believe that the riders must be dopers is because what they do wouldn't be possible otherwise. well, historically, riders were doing the tour well before there were chemical enhancements (there were chemicals for sure but in an endurance event like the tour, i suspect that many if not all of the available drugs would actually have a negative effect over the duration of the event), and many would argue that in some ways, the tours in the early part of the century were harder than today's tours. But that's not really my point. I think today most people in western society, and the people on this board (for the most part), have no where near the mental toughness that previous generations did. and even if you don't accept that generalization, you must admit that soome people are able to acheive the 'impossible' through shear tenacity. like shakleton, or hilary (sp?), or a thousand other amazing individuals that we read about all the time.

competing in and winning the tour 'clean' (some might claim using a high altitude tent is cheating but ....) is, i am certain, possible. people have conquered things far more difficult with far less than a well trained, well fed, well prepared tour rider must endure in the tour. and i for one, believe that lance is proving that winning clean is possible.

[bostondrunk]

So do you think the dramatic increase in speed at the TDF over the last few decades is soley due to equipment?

[weisan]

drunk: Nope. I don't think it's just sheer equipment improvement. Part of it is just a paradigm shift, mental barrier if you will. Sort of like breaking the four-minute-mile thing. More people are looking at us now, they demand more from us, can we push ourselves harder and faster? I don't find it so hard to believe that the human locomotive has a bigger engine that we initially thought. Have we realize our full potential yet? I doubt it.

twocents: To your point on mental toughness of previous generations. I think that's just a situational generalization. Previous generations have gone through the world wars, the holocaust, the famine, the dust bowl, the black market, the dengue outbreak, etc. They endured all that, they got to be tough.

In my age group (30-35+), we certainly had not gone through any major calamities or disaster of that magnitude. Does it mean we are weak?
I sure hope not. We have not been tested, if that's what you are talking about. But some may say they already did, more than others. -- 9/11, SARS, Dotcom Burst etc. For many, the opportunity just did not present itself. Do we desire to have another world war and kill millions of people to prove that we can be just as tough? Nobody in their sane mind would desire that, yes? But if it does happen, can we withstand the hardship and pass the test? I firmly believe the answer is yes. It's the same human spirit, hope and love. That is something universal and unchanging with times. Whenever the human race are called to rise above the occasion, we did...eventually.

[vaxn8r]

during my ride last night, i was thinking about this thread a bit. one reason many people believe that the riders must be dopers is because what they do wouldn't be possible otherwise.


To a certain degree, yes. Also it's because we know what professional athletes do in every sport. I know some and they freely admit it (and lament it). We also know that you absolutely can do it and not be detected. Finally we know something about human physiology and recovery from intense efforts.

Ask yourself why is it that for decades pro athletes did not lift much during the season (excluding football who only play once a week). Because they couldn't. You cant' kill yourself in the weight room and play at a competitive level that day or even the next. But now they can, and do. Look at the physique of NBA and MLB players today. Look at MLB bat speed and ability to hold up on a pitch. Look at the home run averages going up exponentially in the last 15 years.

Don't forget not all anabolics make you "ripped". Some just make you fast. Faster than you've ever been. But the real beauty of it is you can destroy yourself and come back the next day and do it again. This is the biggest difference in what goes on today and decades ago. Recovery times are nonexistent today. So you can train harder than you've ever been able to train before. No off days. You can do 21 day stage races and feel fresh every morning. You can race 3 times a week and feel fine. Guess what....these things are not normal for any human.

[Michael Testa]

Vaxn8r, you elucidated my earlier point re: why Jan may in fact be racing clean. He MUST let his body go into an "offseason" mode to fully recover from the rigors of the Tour and other events, so that he may "peak" for the big races.

[bpm]

So do you think the dramatic increase in speed at the TDF over the last few decades is soley due to equipment?

I'm curious if anyone looked at road quality to evalute if it had anything to do with the increase in average speeds. A good portion of the roads on one of my normal routes was recently repaved (it seemed comparable to cobblestones) and my average speed went up 1 to 2 mph as a result.