Aimee's XMas Kirk

[Dick Little]

No offence intended here, but when I first read about the demise of the original Serotta forum, one of the reasons cited appeared to be the promotion of and constant discussion of non-Serotta bikes/frames. At times I actually thought I was on a sales site for Kirk frames. Well, lo and behold, what have we here - again!! This is not my opinion on the bike itself, but a lot of people here rant about wanting a Serrota only forum, yet here is an entire thread about Kirk's, complete with people getting new Kirk's.

[Climb01742]

dick, i feel pretty certain that douglas's purpose was simple and good: to share a beautiful gift. and though i know my view isn't universally held, i view this forum as a place where folks who love bikes, cycling and serottas can hang out. the richness of topics posted, to me, adds to the richness of the site. i can see your point, but i guess in my eyes, no harm, no foul. a world of many bikes only serves to point out serotta's strengths, i think. a personal example is: i have a few bikes, but none fit me as well as my serottas. other bikes have given me a broader perspective within which to appreciate my serottas more. viva la difference. but that's just my two cents.

[Dick Little]

I agree with you, but we have 3 day's of people losing their marbles over the "Serotta" only forum, yet we love to sell Kirk's hand over fist. Dbrk obviously meant no foul, and his intentions were nothing but in the interest of other's and not himself. But if this is the Serotta fprum, then we can hardly allow outsiders now, can we?

[dbrk]

I have felt a tad uncomfortable writing about bikes other than Serottas or commenting in any critical way (though I would hope all such comments would be constructive) about Serotta. I mentioned this earlier in anothe thread.

If this Forum is intended to be a conversation solely about Serotta then I believe we need some clarity about that from the Moderator. But until then I shall take their silence as a condoning of the innocent conversation of all great bikes with our reference and return point being Serotta. Surely I would not like to offend anyone nor particularly Serotta. However, should it be a "Serotta only" place then I will personally find that a conversation too confining for my broader, even comparative interests and will absent myself more frequently. Whatever the Moderator wants is fine with me, of course.
But I repeat: I see no harm in civil digressions from our main focus and in healthy comparative review of possibilities. After all, what are we to do when someone asks for purchase advice? Are we to _only_ recommend Serotta? I think we would all recommend Serotta but does this mean excluding others? I hope not. Endorsing Serotta choices or conversation is not the same to me as leaving others out of the conversation.

I hope too to talk about bikes and desist from more meta-conversations about our conversations. Civility has taken hold and I am sure we are all very grateful for that. Let the Moderator make these sorts of decisions, no? We're all on good terms here, as I see it. We all love Serottas and Serotta, I believe, is big hearted enough to let us wander and love all sorts of other things too, with respect.

dbrk

[Tom Byrnes]

Dick,

You hold a more limited view of the purpose and intention of the new Serotta forum than I do.

I do not think that "the promotion of and constant discussion of non-Serotta bikes/frames" was a primary consideration in closing down the original forum. I believe the forum closing was caused more by the increasingly frequent troll attacks on both individual posters and Serotta bikes ("value", "overpriced", etc.).

I do not believe that Ben Serotta intended that the new forum be restricted to discussions and photos of only Serottta bikes. If so, why would there be a "Custom Bikes" section of the Image Gallery?

A free-flowing and uncensored discussion and sharing of information about bicycles of all kinds adds tremendous value to this forum, attracts more knowledgeable contributors and in the end, certainly benefits Serotta as more people better understand and appreciate the value and fine quality of Serotta bicycles.


Tom
(Owner of four Serotta bicycles and in constant thirst of information and knowledge about ALL BIKES)

[Kevin]

drbk,

I don't know why you feel the slightest bit uncomfortable about your posting of Aimee's bike. It was completely appropriate. The forum is not for Serotta products only. Anyone who thinks that it is, has not read the Serotta agreement. This forum is for private individuals, not retailers, to discuss bicycles in a civil way.

The Serotta agreement provides, in part:

"This Forum is:

For viewing and browsing or for posting civil discussions by Serotta owners and non-owners alike."

drbk, your posting clearly was civil and appropritae.

The agreement goes on to state:

"This Forum is:

For discussion of cycling-related topics"

drbk, your posting was certainly about a cycling-related topic.

The agreement further provides:

"This Forum is:

For fun!"

drbk, if a pink bike is not fun, what is?

The Serotta agreement goes on to state what is not to be done with the forum. It provies, in part:

"This forum is not:

For retailers and manufacturers to advertise their products and services.
For ‘lurkers’, ‘trolls’, ‘joes’, etc. who wish to harass, threaten, anger, flame, etc. forum members.
For members to try to discredit or otherwise intentionally steer others away from Serotta products."

drbk, to the best of my knowledge you are not a retailer, manufacturer, lurker, troll, joe, etc.; and your posting certainly did not discredit or intentionally steer others away from Serotta product. So your posting of a pink bike is not on the list of prohibited conduct.

The Serotta agreement also sets for certain rules, which read as follows:

"Rules:

If you are a retailer or manufacturer, you may not advertise your products or services on this forum.
You may not advertise other websites, via posts, PMs, or signatures. The purpose of this rule is to prevent careless spammers from abusing our forum. This also is intended to prevent posts of a competitive nature. These posts will be edited or deleted, with or without notice, and the members may be banned.
You warrant that you will not post any messages that are obscene, vulgar, sexually-orientated, hateful, threatening, or otherwise violative of any laws.
Respect toward fellow members is expected. You agree not to harass, flame, insult, taunt, or otherwise disrespect any member of this forum. In other words, if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all."

drbk, your posting was certainly not an advertisement. All you did was provide the name of the painter. That is no different than a discussion of Campy components or Topolino wheels. Your posting was certainly not spam, nor was it obscene or vulgar.

A review of the rules clearly shows that this is not a Serotta only forum. It is a forum to discuss our group's love of bicycles. If I were you I would be proud of the posting. It is exactly the kind of post that Serotta wants. As far as posting the picture on the Serotta site, I think that it is completely appropriate to post it in the custom gallery.

Kevin

[JohnS]

I see no problem with other bikes being brought up as long as they aren't the main subject. For instance, if someone asks for a comparison between, for example, a Seven Axiom and a Legend.
I think there are some people around here that consider the forum their personal showcase. They agree to terms and then don't abide by them. They think the rules are just for the "little people".

[Smiley]

I thinK our counsel Kevin interpeted it best with his post. One of the best things about this site is the valuable knowledge one gains about bikes , component etc. Lets not hide in the sand about the abundance of OTHER builders out there. I think Serotta has nothing to fear from competition, they make a great product and back it like no other. Besides we are probably the most vocal supporters of the Serotta brand.

Owners of 4 Finely Crafted Serotta Bicycles

[Sandy]

I am sure that I will be criticized for saying this, and I also mean no disrespect to dbrk or anyone, but I don't think that the thread should have been presented as it was. I don't think that anyone questions that the world of bicycles is limited to Serotta. To compare bikes, whether they be Kirks, or Treks, or Litespeeds, or Calfees, or ABC brand to Serotta's and to each others is fine. JohnS made that point quite well.

The Kirk bike, per dbrk, was already on the bikefanclub custom gallery. I know that he is very proud of the bike, and rightfully so, and dbrk's intent was certainly innocent, genuine, and sincere, as his posts are always, but when you title a post "Aimee's Christmas Kirk" what do you think will happen? It will be a start of comments about Dave Kirk bikes and that will be somewhat prevalent in the thread. It gives the thread a Kirk basis, not in a comparative manner, but could surely elicit comments primarily about one single bike, Dave Kirk's and this is not a Kirk forum.

A free flowing exchange of ideas about bicycles is great and Ben Serotta has given us basically an opportunity to express whatever we want to about bicycles, as long as we are cordial, civil, and respectful of others. I simply think that starting a thread with a picture of a Kirk bike with the "Aimee's Christmas Kirk" title wasn't the best thing to do on a Serotta forum.

dbrk and anyone else, please forgive me if I have offended any of you herein with my comments, as I would never want to do that to anyone, anytime, period.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . for Pete’s sakes!

My exclusive inside sources tell me that Ben was never concerned over posts like dbrk’s.

His annoyance was from emotional, rather than rational, criticism of Serotta products. If you want to say the Seven Axiom is better, in your opinion, than theLegend, then go right ahead. Just have some reasonable arguments, rather than just saying something judgmental and subjective, or disparaging the dedication or professional competence of Ben or his employees in manufacturing the bike.

Just give Serotta a fair shake. That’s all he asks. You guys are worrying about nothing!

BBDave:p

[M_A_Martin]

always used to say that if you felt uncomfortable doing something, perhaps you should think twice about doing it.

Dbrk you seem to be old enough, wise enough, and professional enough to be completely sure when you are or are not comfortable with saying or doing anything as do most other posters on this board.

On general bike discussion, I think posts such as: I wouldn't own an X, it doesn't have value. Or I can't believe you actually paid that much for a X when Sachs or Kirk could get you better for less, are way out of place. Discussion of different bikes or attributes of different bikes as related to Serottas is constructive.

Many people who post here do go on about the monetary value of the different builder's bikes but not what makes the bike valuable or what the bike is most useful for. Sure it rides like a magic carpet, every new bike anyone bought does!

I would much rather see the old discussions of bike geometery and materials knowledge that actually opened new doors of thought and discussion rather than people saying "I got my vanilla today and its sweet". Tell me why the bike is so good in mechanical ways, not just that the welds are smooth and the workmanship excellent. What did this builder do to the bikes geometry that makes it ride the way you wanted it to ride. How does it ride, what is bad about the bike.

With any bike there is always something that can be improved upon if you think past the price tag. That usually takes time in the saddle to discover rather than those 15 mile first ride reports we see here even if it is a Serotta!
However I don't think the 15 mile ride reports should go away, its part of the excitement of making the right decision is sharing that happiness with your friends. And that is partly why this board came back, is the friendships we've forged here on the board.

I do agree with Mr. Little in a way. This is a Serotta board. Yeah we're all excited about our other bikes and our other bikes do provide us with knowledge about our Serottas. You did put that it was about a Kirk in the title of your thread (so we could avoid it if we wanted to, Bravo!).

If someone thinks they're crossing the line in a post, perhaps they should rework the post rather than just pressing that "Submit Reply" button. Although hitting that send button and apologizing later is the instant gratification/easy way isn't it?

Rant off,
Mary Ann


I'll post on the cute pink bike in the cute pink bike thread....

[djg]

My impression of Ben Serotta's letter announcing the shutdown of the prior site was that he was concerned about all sorts of things that might reflect badly on his brand, but that good faith and tolerably polite discussion of other bikes was not among those concerns. I don't know the man, much less his innermost thoughts, but that's how I read his letter. I agree that it's not entirely clear how to read the new site rules, but I try to read them in the context of the last site and Serotta's statement of reasons for its discontinuation. In that vein, I'd like to think that the praise of a non-Serotta bike is consistent with the rules (even though it is inconsistent with one perfectly straightforward reading of the new forum rules). I own a Serotta and I'm glad of it, but if folks can only mention Serottas on this board then I'm sorry and I'm out of here. I don't think that's what Serotta intends and I'm glad to see dbrk's post. We'll see how it plays out, but in the meantime, I give it a thumbs up.

[Len J]

think about it!

Ben has been nothing but straightforward the entire time this forum (and it's predecessors) has been up. I suspect that if Ben or someone at Serotta had a problem with dbrk's post or any others, they would tell us and would tell us why. Ben is a straight up guy...........can we please remember that.

In the absence of specific direction, we should (as dbrk did) use our own judgement of what is appropriate & what isn't.

What kind of forum would this be if all that could be discussed was Serotta bikes and then only positive comments. C'mon, Ben is a cyclist, he understands the passions that drive cyclists. He appreciates quality bikes as much (&probably more) than anyone here.

Let's all give Ben the credit he has earned and just respect each other & the site.

Things will be fine.

Now can we talk about Bikes?

Anyone tried Assos Prosline bibtights?

Len

[Johny]

Len,


Went riding outside two hours today (one hour yesterday before it snowed). The temperature was about 35 (that is really a blessing), windy, but no snow (thanks God). It was a really good ride.

Since my first son was born about a month ago, I've hardly found time riding. Today in the beginning, I felt a bit difficult on the climbs but after half hour, I was really feeling good. Seeing only one guy riding toward me, we waved our hands and that was a salute to the winter warriors :cool: .

Weatherwise, it is supposed to be a better day tommorrow. Hey, if my lovely wife allows..., I would try at least three hours.

I never tried Assos bibtights. For the past few years, I have collected enough winter clothing... I often wear a pair of Giordana bibtights together with outside another pair of Giordana windtex (similar to wind stopper) with no chamois . I've found this combination working well at least in the 20's and even when it is very windy. They are also really comfortable.

Have fun riding outside and Happy Holidays,

[larryp2]

I have the Assos tights and they are excellent. as many others have said either they fit you well or they don't. they fit me perfectly and I'm comfortable into the teens, and I got 'em on eBay for less than half list price......:banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:

[Climb01742]

kevin's post seems to put the forum's purpose in very clear context. well said. and thank you.

and here is another perspective: i think ben gets value from this site in many ways.

1. you have to pass his homepage to get here. a chance to communicate with us every visit. and his brand awareness is stoked every visit.

2. his products get talked about. pro's and yes, con's, but talked about nevertheless.

3. his brand is enhanced. the spirit behind the company, its ethics, values and service are embodied in this site.

4. he helps us foster a community. and we "repay" him with very well earned goodwill.


i grant you, i'm in marketing, so i see the world thru those eyes. i believe ben is a smart guy. even with a few negative comments about serotta products, the positives that this site create for his products and brand far, far outnumber the negatives. to see the benefits of this site to ben as a simple tally of good vs. bad comments is to miss the deeper value of this site.

speaking personally, i own a look, a litespeed, two kirks, a pegoretti and two serottas. yet the one brand, the one company i feel "closest" to serotta. and it has nothing, frankly, to do with the bikes. i interact with those other bikes as bikes, and therefore have a bond with them as tools. but with serotta, yes, i dig the bikes, but because of this site, my bond is with more than a tool. its with a company and a community. and that is because of this site. a harvard MBA could put a dollar value on that bond. i can't. but as someone who in his job tries to help create that bond between companies and their customers, i can't tell you how rare or valuable it is.

sorry for the length here, but there is a point to be made. the value to serotta of this site goes far beyond the content of its posts. that is but one, small scorecard. the big scorecard has the hometeam ahead by a huge margin. and the richer, more diverse the postings, the bigger the hometeam's lead gets. ben wins, even when in individual posts he may seem to lose.

[kenyee]

He is a former true Serottian...

[vaxn8r]

Interesting post Climb,

My favorite bike is not my Serotta, but I do like it.

What I like about this forum, even before I owned a Serotta is that there are so many other knuckleheads (you guys) like me out there who live for this kind of stuff. I 've come and gone on other cycling forums because they get old or bitter or both. I have to say this one is different. This is a unique place. :cool:

[shinomaster]

I think Kevin and BBDave are right on...I think DBRK just wanted to share the bike with his Serotta friends..

Just wait till my FUJI is done!!

Ha ha

[oracle]

the pettiness and silliness of this thread is overwhelming to me, and it is this mentality, which i perceive as something new here on the "new" old forum that has kept me from posting or even reading this board more than occasionally.

oracle