New Dura Ace?

[jpw]

When is the next Dura Ace gruppo due out? 2008?

[Bill Bove]

The inside the bike biz rumor mill is working overtime on this one. Some say that Dura Ace will be electronic for '08 but there may also be a reworked Dura Ace in the wings if the public doesn't embrace the future. I read somewhere that the Stetina brother who works for Shimano (they all look a like,the Stetina bros.) was likening electronic shifting to switching from DT friction shifters to STI. I like classic things and I don't always like change but I am looking forward to seeing this.

Won't make me change from Campy though.

Campy has their own electronic shifting near the end of the pipeline too.

[mike p]

If it's reliable, looks half way decent, and works, I think it will take off big time! There will always be retro grouch's like myself that are still stuck on dt shifters but even I'll have a bike with it if it works.

Mike

[Louis]

If it's reliable, looks half way decent, and works, I think it will take off big time!

IMO there will need to be more improvements over the current system for it to be worth spending money on it. Reliability, aesthetics and working right are not enough - I think something needs to work way better to make a big jump like this. How many times have manufacturers put something new out there and expected folks to buy it just because it's different, not noticeably better?

Caveat: I'm a bit of a retro-grouch. I still use DT shifters, and think that 10-spd falls into this category.

Louis

[LesMiner]

Was it 10 years ago or more that some had an electronic shift? I don't recall what company it was. I recall it did not work that well plus the additional weight.

[GONE4ARIDE]

Was it 10 years ago or more that some had an electronic shift? I don't recall what company it was. I recall it did not work that well plus the additional weight.


I believe that you're talking about Mavic Zap.

[zank]

The Ultegra SL introduction still puzzles me. I just can't see the point of keping Ultegra and Ultegra SL if there really is only a $100 difference. If EDA does not do as well as planned and they launch the new cable-actuated DA, I wonder if they will just drop Ultegra for Ultegra SL. It just seems like too many groups to me.

[pdxmech13]

It may be a rumor however i saw some spec sheet calling the new DA model dubbed the 666 series

[1centaur]

If it's reliable, looks half way decent, and works, I think it will take off big time! There will always be retro grouch's like myself that are still stuck on dt shifters but even I'll have a bike with it if it works.

Mike

I am NOT a retro grouch, but the current DA fits those three requirements. It will take off if the OEM push is strong enough AND it's at least the equal of the current DA in functionality and has no freshman glitches of note. Equivalent weight and faster shifts with no chain rub in any gear combination, period, would be what I look for as a guy with DA on something like 10 bikes at this point.

[csm]

faster shifts? really? how would you quantify that?

[1centaur]

faster shifts? really? how would you quantify that?

There can be no doubt that it IS quantifiable. The doubt lies in whether we would find it meaningful. Sometimes a DA shift is super fast, sometimes it's a little slower, depending on how much under load the drivetrain is at the point of hitting the lever or how tuned up the wires are. Chainring shifts tend to be slower than most sprocket shifts.

If all electronic shifts, front and back, were as quick and smooth (unjarring) as the best current sprocket shifts because they are accomplished without wires pulling on metal hinges, I'm sure an engineer could design a timing device to prove that.

[CNY rider]

An auto-trim feature might also be a key "upgrade"; it would allow novices in particular to shift without the grinding, rubbing metal on metal sounds we all hate.

[Erik.Lazdins]

To Shimano and Campagnolo,

I ride Campagnolo on my road bike and Shimano on my 650B. The Campy is indexed and the Shimano is friction.

Thats about as advanced as I want it.

I see advancing technology through racing and letting it trickle down to retail is good for the companies marketing efforts, however I ask you to do this.

Should you introduce electronic shifting please keep standard (cabled) groupsets available preferably finished in silver. I think you will find that there is enough demand to justify such a decison.

I will be one of the customers.

One of the things I like most about my bicycles is that they are simple, just get on them and go. An electronic groupset does not seem simple.

[bhungerford]

I don't quite get the point of EDA or any other electronic shifting, cause you're still going to be running cables to the brakes...the only benefit i would see is if you could do it wireless to the derailleurs and figure out a good way to do the brakes that way too. i just don't think the technology is quite there for that, to keep the weight down where most are used to it and have the same performance.

it's not like it's difficult by any stretch to keep cable systems adjusted and working flawlessly...i just have trouble seeing the improvements being that significant, although i can't wait to ride them and give it a shot too...gotta keep your mind open

[stevep]

raise a few hackles?
im not looking for it and have no desire for it but it might be best to actually see it and try it before slamming it or cursing it.

this group is very diverse. likes and desires are very different.
de gustibus non disputandum

we'll see. any comparison to long dead mavic electronic is inapt.
shimano is a real company. they'll get it right.

if they introduce it i predict there will be numerous bikes using it a year after introduction.

[frenk]

One [maybe the only] advantage I see with electronic shifting is that you don't need any shifting mechanism anymore inside the STI bodies. Thus you can make any shape you want saving weight and improving ergonomics.

"...oh **** last night I forgot to recharge my bike. No ride today..."

[texbike]

I don't quite get the point of EDA or any other electronic shifting, cause you're still going to be running cables to the brakes...

I can't wait for a manufacturer to offer electronic/wireless brakes! ;)

Texbike

[RPS]

I can't wait for a manufacturer to offer electronic/wireless brakes! ;)

TexbikeWe may have to wait for the wireless part, but if automobiles switch to electric brakes as expected, bikes may not be far behind. If so, I hope they include ABS.

[Brendan Quirk]

A very reliable source tells me electronic DA has been pushed out to 2009. Every story is subject to change, of course. But the quality of my source is very good, so I'm a big believer that it's an '09er product.

[musgravecycles]

I can't wait for a manufacturer to offer electronic/wireless brakes! ;)



ABS Yo! :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Ya heard it here first...

[BdaGhisallo]

So Brendan,

Does that snippet of news also imply that the update to normal DAce, which was going to be delayed until after EDA, might have been pushed to '08?

It would be nice to get the new XTR crank/bb retention setup on the DA cranks.

Geoff in Bda.

[Vancouverdave]

Betcha they don't do ANYTHING to lengthen parts life or reduce maintainance needs. Why don't they talk about a 5000K chain or 20000K cassette as targets for "innovation?" Why do these marketing-happy scam artists always focus on light weight, looks, and reliability-reducing bells and whistles?

[benb]

Even if the rumors are true 09 sounds more realistic. The current Dura Ace just isn't that old. (Maybe that ugly crank is motivating them to redesign it more quickly?)

I wish they would think outside of the box if they're going to do something so drastic as to do electronic shifting. How about an internal hub, some kind of internal transmission similar to what Honda did with it's MTB, etc..

Just making electronic deraiullers doesn't seem like it can solve chainline issues, make all the gears work equally well, shift perfect under any load, etc..

Electronic brakes.. yikes. Are there actually any GOOD cars which have done that? I've seen nothing but complaints about both electronic brakes & steering. Do you want to ride your bike or be taken for a ride by your bike?

[RPS]

ABS Yo! :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Ya heard it here first...If electric brakes, why not? May keep a few from flipping over on their heads or slipping on slick streets.

The computer already senses wheel speed, so when you start to lock her up, it'll come to your rescue. Might as well dream big. :crap:

[97CSI]

It may be a rumor however i saw some spec sheet calling the new DA model dubbed the 666 seriesMight have to own Shimano (ugh) just for the number if they do designate it the 666 Series. That would be worth the cost.

[RPS]

....snipped......Electronic brakes.. yikes. Are there actually any GOOD cars which have done that? I've seen nothing but complaints about both electronic brakes & steering. Do you want to ride your bike or be taken for a ride by your bike?benb, initially they will probably be electric over hydraulics until automobile electrical systems are upgraded to something like 42 volts. I expect the high-end models will have them first because of higher costs.

I was kidding about bike brakes -- although nothing surprises me.

[dbrk]

I won't ride electronic bicycles and don't put any electronics on my bikes. Heck, I've swapped to down tube shifters on all but the dedicated modern racers and am no longer interested in going back to ugly Ergo or STI, plus it works no better for my purposes. If others like it or buy it, well, that's fine with me, though I hope they sell me their indexing dt shifters for a song when they "upgrade." I'm near stash-sufficient for the rest of my days, certainly market-immune, and now entirely indifferent to what the industry does. The changes and innovations of the past fifteen years have been unimportant to me and unaffected my preferences, though I look and try and remain unconvinced. Personally, I think it's a shame that electronic shifting is the inevitable future: I like mechanical things, simpler the better, versatile and even repairable.

At the Cirque I had an interesting conversation with Gary the decal maker who helps so many people with restorations and the right old look. When confronted by Colnago for reproducing what they don't and won't, he was told by a Colnago that when old bikes need new decals and paint folks should throw them away and get new ones. I wonder if that same Colnago feels that way about his Ferrari. I dunno. What I do know is that the bicycle industry is going places that just plain don't interest me any longer. I'm looking back and getting happier by the moment.

dbrk

[Brendan Quirk]

Geoff - Ultegra SL is the only 'buzz' on the road side for Shimano. Well, that & an expanded Dura Ace wheelset line. Given all of the info floating about on these topics, I doubt that any other revision/expansion of the DA line will occur since Shimano historically does the multi-month media tease you're currently seeing for Ultegra SL & XT. There's no hype on new DA, so that's a sign that nothing new is impending.

[Erik.Lazdins]

When confronted by Colnago for reproducing what they don't and won't, he was told by a Colnago that when old bikes need new decals and paint folks should throw them away and get new ones.
dbrk


I think an owner of an older Colnago who wants the bike restored to its like-new period correct condition, would be far more likely to buy a new Colnago if Colnago offered complete after the sale support. Could Colnago not do this by outsourcing the decal reproduction? Telling a Colnago owner who wishes to restore their bike to "throw it away" in fact throws away the repeat customer!

Thanks for the post, troubling as it might be!

[jeffg]

Personally, I think it's a shame that electronic shifting is the inevitable future: I like mechanical things, simpler the better, versatile and even repairable.
dbrk

Bikes to me are mechanical and wonderful for that, though I am the furthest thing from a mechanic.

I have to say, though, that I am really enjoying a new Love#3 with Ergo. The wheels are great handbuilts (the Sapim CX-Ray paired with DT rims and 240s make a fantastic wheel), the Ti PMP post is about perfect, etc.. The bike is more comfortable (noticeably so) than a Hampsten/Parlee carbon with old Campy Eurus wheels (steel spokes) and certainly gives up nothing in stiffness (just check out the chainstays!). So the Love#3 is just wonderful and quite modern to my mind, though I can see never going with prebuilt wheels again and replacing the Kysriums on my Legend and the Eurus on the Hampsten if and when funds allow.

I might end up collecting old pre-electronic shifters soon to make myself market independent ...

[BdaGhisallo]

have to say, though, that I am really enjoying a new Love#3 with Ergo. The wheels are great handbuilts (the Sapim CX-Ray paired with DT rims and 240s make a fantastic wheel), the Ti PMP post is about perfect, etc..

Well don't just tease us like that! Let's see some pics of that ride.

[jeffg]

Well don't just tease us like that! Let's see some pics of that ride.

Thanks to davids, here they are:

[michael white]

Bikes to me are mechanical and wonderful for that, though I am the furthest thing from a mechanic.

I have to say, though, that I am really enjoying a new Love#3 with Ergo. The wheels are great handbuilts (the Sapim CX-Ray paired with DT rims and 240s make a fantastic wheel), the Ti PMP post is about perfect, etc.. The bike is more comfortable (noticeably so) than a Hampsten/Parlee carbon with old Campy Eurus wheels (steel spokes) and certainly gives up nothing in stiffness (just check out the chainstays!). So the Love#3 is just wonderful and quite modern to my mind, though I can see never going with prebuilt wheels again and replacing the Kysriums on my Legend and the Eurus on the Hampsten if and when funds allow.

I might end up collecting old pre-electronic shifters soon to make myself market independent ...

I'm having the same feeling about wheels . . . I recently broke some spokes on my Velomax rear wheel, and while I was waiting for the replacement (that wouldn't have been an issue with a "normal" wheel), I put on a handbuilt pair with the DT hubs and OP rims, etc. Wow, that feels good! (Sorry if any Eastons folks are reading this, not trying to trash your product.)

[chuckroast]

I don't think it is right to oppose innovation in general. Bike and component manufacturers are required to innovate to try and differentiate themselves in the marketplace. I'm fine with teching up bikes with googaws, even if I never end up buying any of it.

It's kind of like cars with all the onboard computing capability, drive by wire and OBD. We can't work on current model cars anymore, but in exchange they are safer, way more reliable, and less polluting. If you want to get your fingernails dirty, buy a classic car.

Us retro bike riders will end up doing the same thing. I'm OK with that.

[rounder]

[QUOTE=chuckroast]I don't think it is right to oppose innovation in general. Bike and component manufacturers are required to innovate to try and differentiate themselves in the marketplace. I'm fine with teching up bikes with googaws, even if I never end up buying any of it.

I agree. I always liked sports cars with manual shifters. Today, Formula 1 racing is all about paddle shifting. I was watching the Grand Prix of Monaco on the Speed channel a few weeks ago and the announcer made a statement about how the drivers were shifting 56 times per lap and each lap was only about a mile (they only get up to about 100 mph before they have to brake). The sounds were unbelievable...they were like scalded dogs...screaming while they accelerated and then downshifting through the corners. Anyway...it would have been vintage with manual shifting but these are about the highest tech things there is and it was cool.

[97CSI]

Today, Formula 1 racing is all about paddle shifting.Are you sure about this? Think F1 is all done by computer with button on the steering wheel for override. Paddle is in the GTA/Prototype and what passes for sports car racing today. Amazing level of sophisticationin F1 today. Only surpassed by the amazing level of reliability. Especially when one thinks about the 18,000+ rpm the engines are turning.

But, I would ask.......how will electronic shifting help the racer? Think bicycle racing is near the edge like never before. Witness the guy on the break with Moreau who broke a chain (Campagnolo) with the result that it tore his RD completely off the bike and lost him a podium finish. Or, Vande Velde, who broke something in his drivetrain (Shimano) with the result that it flipped him over the handlebar onto his back. Ouch! Think I would opt for another few ounces of metal to make things stronger (says the guy who is putting a new hollow-pin chain on his bike - hope I don't regret it).

[rounder]

[QUOTE=gpdavis2]Are you sure about this?

I don't disagree with anything you said gpdavis2. I think the Formula 1 stuff is awesome. Actually am never really sure about anything these days. My point was that that nothing is going to stop the advancement of technology and that it wasn't necessarily bad. Also, I agree with the guy who said something like...if you're gonna advance technology, why not give us chains and cassettes that last longer instead of flavor of the month tubes and planned obsolescent hardware.

[3chordwonder]

Wouldn't Chorus/Ultegra be the longer lasting components you mean? Or am I just kidding myself with wishful thinking that by surrendering a few grams we get increased durability. A Chorus front derailleur looks more durable to me than the flimsy carbon Record equivalent, but hey - maybe I'm wrong and it's just made cheaper and not actually sturdier.

[Serotta PETE]

SPOKES is converting all his herd to MAVIC ZAP...... :bike:

He told me it was now retro since it is over 10 years old.... :confused: :confused:

[jpw]

Well, an interesting read.

Personally Ithink gearing should evolve to a Rohloff-type planetary internal hub positioned in an enlarged bottom bracket shell. This lowers the centre of gravity and weight distribution of the bike and improves rear wheel dish, chain line, eliminates chain rings and cogs et.c. et.c. Use a tensioner or have track ends.

[mikki]

[
I have to say, though, that I am really enjoying a new Love#3 with Ergo. The wheels are great handbuilts (the Sapim CX-Ray paired with DT rims and 240s make a fantastic wheel)


Are you a speed demon, is that why you chose the CX-Ray spokes? I have chosen the same build up for my new wheels but just chose "Sapim" spokes...maybe I should have a conversation with the LBS about WHICH Sapim spokes. Do these catch sidewind too much or are they fine?

[jeffg]

[
I have to say, though, that I am really enjoying a new Love#3 with Ergo. The wheels are great handbuilts (the Sapim CX-Ray paired with DT rims and 240s make a fantastic wheel)


Are you a speed demon, is that why you chose the CX-Ray spokes? I have chosen the same build up for my new wheels but just chose "Sapim" spokes...maybe I should have a conversation with the LBS about WHICH Sapim spokes. Do these catch sidewind too much or are they fine?

I am not a speed demon. I think I am generally faster than that Ben Atkins dude from cyclingnews.com, who rides lots of Gran Fondos, but I am in the same out of shape hack category.

My choice for the CX-Ray is that they are quality spokes, build up nice without any need to slot hubs, etc. and are tough enough for pro sprinters despite their low weight. Rather than get pre-builts that weigh 1500+ and use expensive proprietary parts, my wheels come in at about 1420g, are super comfortable, and are fast. I have noticed no cross-wind issues at all.

In short, the spokes are spendy but are much more worthwhile than getting expensive pre-builts so long as you have a great wheelbuilder, and I am fortunate to have access to one.

Laser spokes are great as well, just not as trick. I thought a new Nerac Love#3 deserved a sensible but somewhat "pro" wheel.

[RPS]

Well, an interesting read.

Personally Ithink gearing should evolve to a Rohloff-type planetary internal hub positioned in an enlarged bottom bracket shell. This lowers the centre of gravity and weight distribution of the bike and improves rear wheel dish, chain line, eliminates chain rings and cogs et.c. et.c. Use a tensioner or have track ends.I've seen a few rough MTB prototypes like you describe at Interbike. And others are going beyond that with CVT prototypes like those used on smaller automobiles.

The concept is great, but it will take a while to develop equipment with weight and mechanical efficiencies for racing bikes that can compete with chains and derailleurs IMO.

[Nick H.]

How the hell can you live with needing rechargeable batteries to make your bicycle work? Won't they be too heavy? Will you have to take your charger everywhere?

Please somebody explain this to me! I'm sure Campy and Shimano must have thought of this. (Perhaps they will start selling racing wheels with built-in dynamos...)

[David Kirk]

How the hell can you live with needing rechargeable batteries to make your bicycle work? Won't they be too heavy? Will you have to take your charger everywhere?

Please somebody explain this to me! I'm sure Campy and Shimano must have thought of this. (Perhaps they will start selling racing wheels with built-in dynamos...)

Mektronic -

Lighter than either DA or Record. Batteries last 3 years minimum........I replace mine every two years and have never been stuck.


I'm not saying electronic stuff is the answer but it could be good......or it might be an answer to a question no one asked. Time and the market place will tell.

Dave

[SoCalSteve]

I cannot imagine anything being better (shifting quality, smoothness, quietness, etc) than whats available now from both Shimano and Campy. Its so easy and cheap to replace housings and cables after a few thousand miles, I just dont see the need or purpose for electronic shifting...

And, I am a big techno geek. I love everything techno related, I just dont see a need for this.

Please tell me if I am wrong.

Steve

[David Kirk]

I cannot imagine anything being better (shifting quality, smoothness, quietness, etc) than whats available now from both Shimano and Campy. Its so easy and cheap to replace housings and cables after a few thousand miles, I just dont see the need or purpose for electronic shifting...

And, I am a big techno geek. I love everything techno related, I just dont see a need for this.

Please tell me if I am wrong.

Steve

I agree with you Cal-Man. 100%

On the other hand we all use 10 speed now. Is it better than 9 or even 8? Carbon cranks? Dual pivot brakes? All good things that no one "needed" but they are embraced. So much of the stuff we use now and don't question replaced stuff that worked just fine.

It will be interesting to see if the electric stuff works well and is embraced.

Time will tell.

Dave

[Grant McLean]

On the other hand we all use 10 speed now. Is it better than 9 or even 8? Carbon cranks? Dual pivot brakes? All good things that no one "needed" but they are embraced. So much of the stuff we use now and don't question replaced stuff that worked just fine.

Dave


Most people buy what's currently for offered for sale, in the conventional sense.

I ride record 10 most of the time, and i love it, it's a great group. But if all
bikes only exsisted with 7402 dt shifter dura ace groups, it'd be no big deal.

For quite some time now, parts that make up a 'grouppo' don't make or break
the ride for me. Besides the frame, it's the saddle, handlebar bend, tires,
pedals and shoes that are way more important personal choices to me...

So give me a nice handbuilt Kirk, with the right length cranks, gearing, and
handlebar I prefer, and i'm good to go!

g

[Bradford]

I just don't see a need for this.
Steve, what do the fax machine, the mini van, and the Sony Walkman have in common?

Nobody new they needed one until they were introduced, and when they were, the demand was huge. Trying to understand a radically different product without facts is a fool's errand, kind of like predicting interest rates*.

Is electronic shifting the next fax machine? It doesn't make sense to me. But then again, when the Blackberry came out I thought it was a stupid idea.

I'll do what I always do...wait for 3-4 years of other people working through the new technology to see if it makes sense or not. It just isn't worth my while to spend too much time speculating on why or why not this makes sense now, I'll let the early adopters sort it out and join the party on the down side of the bell curve.


*Einstein dies and goes to heaven. St. Peter tells him that heaven is full of all types of people and he can talk to them about anything he wants. Einstein is excited and rushes out to see who he can meet. He finds an interesting-looking fellow and asks his IQ--the man says 185. "Wow," says Einstein,"do you want to discuss physics with me?"

He meets another guy later on and asks his IQ--130 says the man. "Wow," says Einstein, "do you want to talk about poetry with me?"

At the end of the day, Einstein meets a guy and asks his IQ--85 the man says. Einstein replies "what do you think interest rates are going to do?"

[jeffg]

And, I am a big techno geek. I love everything techno related, I just dont see a need for this.


Steve

Now is the time on Sprockets where SoCalSteve dances! ;)

[mcteague]

Steve, what do the fax machine, the mini van, and the Sony Walkman have in common?

Nobody new they needed one until they were introduced, and when they were, the demand was huge. Trying to understand a radically different product without facts is a fool's errand, kind of like predicting interest rates*.



A quote from Henry Ford, which may be apocryphal, seems fitting.
“If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.”

That said, I think I'll wait some time before trying electric shifting. I actually remember when the Browning electronic front shifting crank was supposed to be the next big thing. http://www2.bsn.de/Cycling/articles/browning.html

Tim McTeague

[RPS]

.....snipped.......I ride record 10 most of the time, and i love it, it's a great group. But if all bikes only exsisted with 7402 dt shifter dura ace groups, it'd be no big deal. .......snipped....
Hence the beauty of a free market, which drives technology.

If Shimano had stayed with dt shifters and Campy upgraded by taking risks, would Shimano even be in business today?

On the other hand, if electrics flop like Coca-Cola's New Coke, they better be ready to backpedal very quickly.

[sg8357]

On the batteries, the Shimano Coasting group uses a front dyno hub
to charge the shifting battery. Check out the Trek Lime.

A Shimano mechanical brifter probably has more wear out parts
than a electronic version.
Most users can't change bearings, cables or build wheels, Shimano
is just going with the flow.So having a group that isn't user serviceable is not such a big deal.


Scott G.

[Grant McLean]

Hence the beauty of a free market, which drives technology.

If Shimano had stayed with dt shifters and Campy upgraded by taking risks, would Shimano even be in business today?



but that's my point...

All the so callled technology that makes a current 10 speed group
has contributed virtually nothing to improving 'the ride'. a 20 year
old Dura ace group is plenty good to go. What has improved in
hubs, bb's, braking, or even shifting for that matter? I click one
gear of my DT shifter, and the chain moves over one spot.

The new stuff is a little lighter, but for many of the people using it,
they could lose some fat themselves, if it really mattered.

Compare a 60's- 80's Record group to Dura Ace 7402, and there are
many improvements in the 7402 that have not been bettered since.

g

[RPS]

Grant, I look at it from the point of view that if new stuff wasn’t markedly better, people would still be riding the old stuff. People vote with their wallets, don’t they?

Either way, Shimano takes the risk, not us. If we don’t like it, we don’t have to buy it; although if it ends up being super slick and we do end up buying it, we’ll have to pay a price premium for that financial risk, not to mention all the development costs. I’d bet it will be very pricey – probably above Record IMO.

[Grant McLean]

Grant, I look at it from the point of view that if new stuff wasn’t markedly better, people would still be riding the old stuff. People vote with their wallets, don’t they?


That's a big assumption. If you're in the market to buy a bike, don't most
people buy what is for sale in stores?

Our shop only sells current products offered by our suppliers.
How easy is it for people to source out discontinued goods?

Even so, lots of people are riding non-current stuff, as they have simply
decided not to purchase the newest stuff because it doesn't offer any
benefits to what they already ride, so they keep going on what they
already own.


g

[David Kirk]

Grant, I look at it from the point of view that if new stuff wasn’t markedly better, people would still be riding the old stuff. People vote with their wallets, don’t they?

Either way, Shimano takes the risk, not us. If we don’t like it, we don’t have to buy it; although if it ends up being super slick and we do end up buying it, we’ll have to pay a price premium for that financial risk, not to mention all the development costs. I’d bet it will be very pricey – probably above Record IMO.

I agree. Both Shimano and Campy both have released crap and it went down the toilet in flames..........can you say Euclid??

There will always be "early adopters" that buy whatever it is as long as it's new. But those folks won't be enough to make the new thing a success. It will have to be embraced by the general populace to make it in the long run.

If it sucks it won't be around long.........and it's not like they will stop making cable systems. I've got a buck that says they will offer both for awhile.......Da cable and DA 'lectric. The sales winner will be the new DA.

You heard it here first.

Carnac the magnificent (aka Dave)

[gt6267a]

Not to be a complete contrarian around here, but I actually like my record brifters better than dt shifters. Do I need 10 speeds instead of 8? No, I would probably cool with 5 or 6 in back, but I would rather shift between the 5 or 6 gears in back from my hoods than from the dt.

[Grant McLean]

Not to be a complete contrarian around here, but I actually like my record brifters better than dt shifters. Do I need 10 speeds instead of 8? No, I would probably cool with 5 or 6 in back, but I would rather shift between the 5 or 6 gears in back from my hoods than from the dt.

That's kinda my point.

The 'low hanging fruit' has been harvested.
There hasn't been a feature that equals the impact of the brifter as a new design,
(which is now about 15 years old?)

No wonder weight is the obsessive feature it is today, what else have they
come up with?

g

[davids]

but that's my point...

All the so callled technology that makes a current 10 speed group
has contributed virtually nothing to improving 'the ride'. a 20 year
old Dura ace group is plenty good to go. What has improved in
hubs, bb's, braking, or even shifting for that matter? I click one
gear of my DT shifter, and the chain moves over one spot.

The new stuff is a little lighter, but for many of the people using it,
they could lose some fat themselves, if it really mattered.

Compare a 60's- 80's Record group to Dura Ace 7402, and there are
many improvements in the 7402 that have not been bettered since.

g
I disagree - STI and Ergo are major improvements to downtube shifting. A real useful innovation, atmo.

[Grant McLean]

I disagree - STI and Ergo are major improvements to downtube shifting. A real useful innovation, atmo.

I not saying it isn't useful. I'm trying (poorly..) to add some perspective.

How useful is it? As useful as clipless pedals? As useful as the right
gear ratios? As useful as the proper stem length or seat height?

Many of these 'innovations' are fine, sure they aren't a step backwards,
but as I started out saying... if all bicycles were late 80's Richard Sachs'
with 7402 DT shifters, would y'all give up cycling? For myself, i'd hardly
notice the difference, that's all i'm saying.

g

[97CSI]

STI and Ergo are major improvements to downtube shifting. A real useful innovation, atmo.Amen, bro. Only two improvements in the past 40 years make any real difference. Clipless pedals and brifters. All else is nice, if that is what you want. But, is mostly BS to 99%+ of riders.

[RPS]

That's a big assumption. If you're in the market to buy a bike, don't most
people buy what is for sale in stores?

Our shop only sells current products offered by our suppliers.
How easy is it for people to source out discontinued goods?....snipped....Supply or demand driven? I fall on the demand side.

IMO if there was enough demand for anything, someone would step in and make sure your shop had it. If dts were in demand, either Shimano or Campy would make them, or someone else would. That's my point about free markets.

Wait a minute; don't Shimano and Campy still sell dt shifters?

Grant, if we can readily buy illegal stuff because there is demand, we would be able to buy reproduction new old stuff.

[michael white]

I enjoy both my old friction Campy shifters AND my new ultegra10 brifters. And my Mavic retrofriction, my Suntour retrofriction, and others. As long as a part is working more or less as designed, I'm happy. So far I have zero interest in electric shifters, but that's before the reviews in Bicycling, which will point out all the advantages, etc.

No, of course I don't want what I haven't seen or imagined.

Shimano's main interest, of course, is in beating Campy, that's why they have to keep on evolving. My particular needs are not their primary interest, and shouldn't be, since they plan to keep selling after I'm dead.

[RPS]

That's kinda my point.

The 'low hanging fruit' has been harvested.
There hasn't been a feature that equals the impact of the brifter as a new design,
(which is now about 15 years old?)

No wonder weight is the obsessive feature it is today, what else have they
come up with?

gGrant, are we in agreement that electric shifting is not "low hanging fruit"? They've been working on it long enough, so someone out there must think it offers some real advantages.

I can't imagine Shimano sticking their necks out for a minor improvement.

P.S. -- I'm with you on the weight thing -- in some cases it has been way overdone.

[Grant McLean]

Grant, are we in agreement that electric shifting is not "low hanging fruit"? They've been working on it long enough, so someone out there must think it offers some real advantages.

I can't imagine Shimano sticking their necks out for a minor improvement.

P.S. -- I'm with you on the weight thing -- in some cases it has been way overdone.

I'm sure we agree on lots... i think it's just the way these questions are
framed that makes it seem like we're talking a cross purposes.

I know why electronic is coming to market: it's new. If you don't have it,
you'll need to buy it. New sells. Take most mature markets, and analyse
the sales patterns. New things sell. People buy what's 'new'. Sales staff are
excited by things they didn't have before. Society demands the next big
thing. It's got zero to do with 'better'.

I'm no retro grouch, but after about 25 years of cycling, and watching things
come and go... my BS meter is quite well tuned. My 'needs' list is simple, and
my 'wants' list isn't influenced too much by the latest thing...

g

[swoop]

progression is good... for no other reason that it can't be avoided. its just one more choice and it will have positive and negative about it just like everything else does.
the common denominator about all this stuff is.. its still about the ride itself.
its the riding the matters.

[RPS]

Grant, there is absolutely nothing wrong with liking and using older designs -- I usually keep stuff until it wears out. I think in marketing they call it something like being a lager -- the last guy on the street with a color TV or video camera. They normally buy much after most others and only after the product is common and lower price.

At the other extreme are the innovators who have to buy the first one on the block -- like a friend who paid $1,000s over retail to have the first Miata. Personally, I wouldn't do that in a million years, but many others do.

IMO forcing change is far more important on durable items. Most of us could ride the same frame all our lives, so companies like Serotta would remain much smaller if they didn't create new products people will buy.

[Grant McLean]

the common denominator about all this stuff is.. its still about the ride itself.
its the riding the matters.

It's intersting what choices some people are making.

There are quite a few guys riding the local technical mountain bike trails
on single speeds. These are young guys, mostly, and they seem geniunely
interesting in learning how to develop their skills. The fact that the trail is
more challenging with only one gear is a big part of the attraction to riding.


g

[Grant McLean]

Grant, there is absolutely nothing wrong with liking and using older designs.

except for the fact that just a few posts ago you wrote:

"I look at it from the point of view that if new stuff wasn’t markedly better, people would still be riding the old stuff"

I'm a retailer. 99% of customers just assume newer is better.
Old stuff goes on sale in order to get rid of it. Who would pay full price
for 'last years' model when you can get the new one?

Only sometimes is newer actually better, mostly it's the same, and
sometimes it's worse. For the most part, it's 2 steps forward, 1 step back,
1 step sideways.

g

[vaxn8r]

except for the fact that just a few posts ago you wrote:

"I look at it from the point of view that if new stuff wasn’t markedly better, people would still be riding the old stuff"

I'm a retailer. 99% of customers just assume newer is better.
Old stuff goes on sale in order to get rid of it. Who would pay full price
for 'last years' model when you can get the new one?

Only sometimes is newer actually better, mostly it's the same, and
sometimes it's worse. For the most part, it's 2 steps forward, 1 step back,
1 step sideways.

g
Yeah, except, sometimes your motivation to buy new stuff is simply that they'll have replacement parts around for just a bit longer. To me that's why I'd never pay full price for last year's iteration.

[vaxn8r]

Clipless pedals made cycling 100% more enjoyable to me. That was a phenomenal innovation. In the early 80's I couldn't finish a ride where me feet weren't absolutely killin' me from those dang straps.

[xlbs]

Our marketplace is all about "new" sells, as Grant has said so well.

It's also about market share. Shimano is far less concerned about beating Campagnolo and far more concerned about garnering a few extra percentage points of share. If they can release a new group with features that some folks will deem worthy of purchasing, while also selling conventionally featured products in volume, they are ahead of the game.

If Campagnolo failed in the marketplace others would rise to the Shimano hegemony in an effort to capitalize on some available market share.

Personally I am happy enough with my odd-ball mix of stuff on my '94 Legend Ti, and am not interested in spending $1000+ simply to find two more gears.

That doesn't mean that I scorn newer products or clever innovations, or even not so clever innovations that don't fly well. I admire deeply the energy and risk-taking involved in getting a product to market. Working at both making a living and attempting to satisfy customer needs is a worthy venture.

To reiterate what has been so well said already (Grant, you always have had a good way with words--we should do coffee sometime!), this is a marketplace where customers have options, but these options are often pre-determined or limited somewhat by the sales and marketing flavours of the year. To shop further and more determinedly requires time and energy and knowledge that many simply don't have.

The final question is, as said again so well, "will folks ride more if they buy this stuff?"

I hope so.

[rounder]

Not to be a complete contrarian around here, but I actually like my record brifters better than dt shifters. Do I need 10 speeds instead of 8? No, I would probably cool with 5 or 6 in back, but I would rather shift between the 5 or 6 gears in back from my hoods than from the dt.

For what it's worth, I like record brifters too. Until this year I had been riding the same bike (nhx) for 15 years. It came with Ultegra downtube 7 speed and felt fine. When it all wore out, changed to Duraace 8-speed downtube stuff. It felt awesome...shifting was fast and positive engagement...you knew you were there and sounded great. But always wanted to try Campy and wanted a wider gear range (12x25). Converted last year to Campy record 10. Soon realized that I didn't have to think about shifting or what the situation was. It was superfast...you could do it whenever you like... and you could brake at the same time. Meanwhile, the bike rode fine just like it always did. I appreciate technology (not a techno junkie) but do not see any need to go to electronic shifting in the forseeable future.

[Lifelover]

IMO what electronic shifting offers is not about quicker/smoother shifting but it may revolutionize the the shifting mechanism as much as Brifters did.

With cable shifting the brifters, bar end shifters, DT shifters etc. HAVE to accomplish a certain amount of work. This work can be done via travel distance or applied force but it must go into the shifter. A spring can do the work in one direction but that just increases the amount of work required in the other.

Electronic shifting can change that. the slightest touch of a button can initiate the shift. It would be reasonable to have multiple shift buttons for each hand position.

Will any of this make a huge difference? Who knows but I suspect 10 years from now it will have been just as big of a change as brifters.

[David Kirk]

I'm disappointed...........I took a good jab at campy with the Euclid comment and no one jabbed back.

Is it that there are no Campy fans or is it that even the most hard core Campy fan has wiped the Euclid group from their memory as a method of self preservation?

Dave

[jhcakilmer]

I think all this electronic talk is crazy, I mean have they just ran out of gimicks, so they have to take it to the next level?

Have we become so lazy that we can't shift our own gears, we actually have to have a motor do it for us?

This completely contradicts the entire purpose of a bicycle!

[Lifelover]

This completely contradicts the entire purpose of a bicycle!


Other than having fun I thought the primary purpose of a bicycle was to use mechanical advantage to help propel ourselves more efficiently than walking?

How does electronic shifting contradict that?

[Jason E]

I really do not understand any of these arguments against electronica.

Whether you are comfortable currently with 10, 9, 8, or 6 speeds, you are choosing a random point in development as your personal pinnacle. All of those choices are better then what came a few years before them, whether for weight, action, construction, or function.

Electronica is just what's next.

In a few years people will be saying, "I'm fine with the 12 speed electronica, I don't need 14". Yadda yadda.

It's supposed to be fun. Enjoy the new stuff even if you do not use it. You all sound cranky.

[theprep]

I'll play with the electric shifters on display at the bike shop. Then try to ride a buddies bike with the new stuff.

Only then will I make a decision on whether it is worth it to purchase for myself!

I'm gonna guess retail on a groupo is going to go from approx. $1,400 to approx. $2,000.

The stuff will have to work VERY well for it to be a success for Shimano. They took a beating on the mountain bike front a couple of years ago with the introduction of 960 XTR Series and the dual control shifters. SRAM picked up quite a bit of the market. I skipped right over that group. There was a big increase in cost and a completely new way of shifter that didn't work for me and I was not buying.

The harder decision will be if I like the electric stuff; is whether my C50 or Love No. 3 gets the newer parts.

[gt6267a]

The stuff will have to work VERY well for it to be a success for Shimano. They took a beating on the mountain bike front a couple of years ago with the introduction of 960 XTR Series and the dual control shifters. SRAM picked up quite a bit of the market. I skipped right over that group. There was a big increase in cost and a completely new way of shifter that didn't work for me and I was not buying.



Dual control is a different method of shifting.

While riding, will the electric group be all that different? No doubt setup and tuning will be different, but will the action be that much different in action?

[RPS]

except for the fact that just a few posts ago you wrote:

"I look at it from the point of view that if new stuff wasn’t markedly better, people would still be riding the old stuff"I don’t see my views as contradicting.

I'm a retailer. 99% of customers just assume newer is better.Many people assume that in a competitive free market retailers will ensure that the best available products are on the shelves.

I don’t accept that customers buy high-tech stuff because manufacturers and retailers don’t make older lower-tech stuff available to them. Many people always want more even if they don’t know what it is yet.

Viewed from a different angle; if there is not a demand from customers for ever-improved products, then why does anyone buy Ultegra or Dura-Ace when Shimano 105 is arguably better than 20-year-old DA? Why would anyone pay double or more for slightly higher-tech equipment when 105 does everything as well or better as DA did 20 years ago? IMO it’s not limited availability of lower-tech equipment that forces us to want more and newer toys.

I agree that no one needs electric DA shifting, but if it works well there will be plenty who will buy it.

[michael white]

I'm disappointed...........I took a good jab at campy with the Euclid comment and no one jabbed back.

Is it that there are no Campy fans or is it that even the most hard core Campy fan has wiped the Euclid group from their memory as a method of self preservation?

Dave

Dave, of course you're right, but in my opinion taking a jab at Campy is not hard to do . . . just bring up anything between Super Record and Ergo--and we're talking most of two decades there--and that'll do. . . Campy's R and D has been a matter of "let's wait and see what Shimano does," --pretty much for the entire adult life of many riders. Whatever, they still make wonderful stuff, obviously. And I'll ride my Super Record group till the day I die. It'll still be looking good, too.

But as far as mtn. bikes and components, to me the Italians have always seemed out of their element and pretty much doomed, as Campy belatedly recognized. There have been lots of serious attempts, like Cinelli's line of mtn bikes, but somehow the Italian mtn. stuff is like a spaghetti western, amusing but definitely B grade.

[stevep]

I'm disappointed...........I took a good jab at campy with the Euclid comment and no one jabbed back.

Is it that there are no Campy fans or is it that even the most hard core Campy fan has wiped the Euclid group from their memory as a method of self preservation?

Dave


i know that grant put masking tape on his monitor to block out that jab an campagnolo...
but he is having trouble figuring out why it moves up and down and he can still see it sometimes.

note on the electric:
nobody here has seen it other than a spy photo or something and certainly nobody here has tried it.
might it not be better to try it before slamming it?
no one will force you to purchase it. if you hate it dont buy it.
might be interesting to wait and see it..after all the 2 major component companies feel that it is far better than what they are offering. and they are rhowing down a pile of research dollars in bringing it to market.
who are we/you to think that are lying?
i say wait til you see it and try it to be critical.

[Grant McLean]

Viewed from a different angle; if there is not a demand from customers for ever-improved products, then why does anyone buy Ultegra or Dura-Ace when Shimano 105 is arguably better than 20-year-old DA? Why would anyone pay double or more for slightly higher-tech equipment when 105 does everything as well or better as DA did 20 years ago? IMO it’s not limited availability of lower-tech equipment that forces us to want more and newer toys.


You're kidding, right? People buy dura-ace (or Record) because it's the top group.

Go to a car dealership and watch people buy cars. It's an emotional and
completely irrational process. Fantasy and passion fuel people's buying
process, not an evaluation of features or performance per dollar analysis!

g

[sspielman]

But as far as mtn. bikes and components, to me the Italians have always seemed out of their element and pretty much doomed, as Campy belatedly recognized. There have been lots of serious attempts, like Cinelli's line of mtn bikes, but somehow the Italian mtn. stuff is like a spaghetti western, amusing but definitely B grade.

You mustn't be familiar with FRM or Tiso.......

[Jason E]

You mustn't be familiar with FRM or Tiso.......

Or Simoni

[Grant McLean]

They took a beating on the mountain bike front a couple of years ago with the introduction of 960 XTR Series and the dual control shifters. SRAM picked up quite a bit of the market. I skipped right over that group. There was a big increase in cost and a completely new way of shifter that didn't work for me and I was not buying.


theprep gets is

g

[swoop]

i think we all get a little too in love with our opinions. especially about stuff we've never even seen in real life.
i can't swallow critiquing something i've not laid hands on even in the abstract... and i'm sure the design point is better function.. its really going to be about battery tech at this point.

lets see in a year or two if it makes it to market. kudos to any company that invests in RD.

if it works as well as it might, the point is that it's one less interface between you and the pedaling the bike. so, it brings the rider deeper into the process of biking as shifting takes less movement.

poeple talk all the time about the purity of cycling and single speeds/fixies... if e-shifting makes a more direct interface between thinking about shifting and the shift occuring it might just make the biking itself come more to the forefront.

and if it doesn't .. it doesn't and you use what you want. its all about the bike dissapearing isn't it?

[RPS]

You're kidding, right? People buy dura-ace (or Record) because it's the top group.

Go to a car dealership and watch people buy cars. It's an emotional and
completely irrational process. Fantasy and passion fuel people's buying
process, not an evaluation of features or performance per dollar analysis!

gI'm completely serious Grant, but you are in part making my point for me.

Some people want more, better, lighter, etc... whether rational or not. If 20-year-old DA weight, quality, shifting, etc... was all that anyone really needed and therefore wanted to buy, they would go into a shop like yours and after being told that it is no longer available they would settle on the item that came closest (i.e. -- 105 and not new Ultegra or DA IMHO).

The fact that many people are willing to spend twice as much for minor incremental improvements is what drives companies like Shimano and Campy to keep pushing the envelope; otherwise they will be left behind.

As to car buying, I agree there is a lot of passion involved, but there is also a lot of evaluation of features and performance (like fuel economy) involved. Otherwise, how could we explain the success of bland Toyota and Honda products at the expense of US manufacturers? US companies thought for many years that if they marketed a product enough people would buy it regardless of the quality. The Japanese spent far less in marketing and a lot more in R&D and QA, thinking that better products would help sell themselves.

[Serotta PETE]

There have been advancements in function such as indexing BUT lightness seems to be the main selling point. To my way of thinking "lightness" is in many cases a "non-improvement". It definitely affects "useful life" to some extent. Might be my age, but electronic shifting does nothing for me. When MAVIC had the ZAP, I was doing IT consulting for them and had the use of many bikes with it.. I much preferred the "manual" and index that they had over the electronic..but then each to their own. I am sure electronic will sell to some.

I am a sucker for new and shiny but lightness on non wheel parts is a waste of $$s to me for I could lose more weight then I will ever save on buying lighter components....Just can not leave the red wine alone.

PETE

[michael white]

You mustn't be familiar with FRM or Tiso.......

It makes no difference. I was talking about the way some great manufacturers like Cinelli wanted a piece of the mtn bike market and came out with their own spin on it. I thought it was charming stuff, but didn't exactly light the offroad world on fire. Much like Campy's attempts to enter that market, till they decided otherwise. I think even the hallowed Pegoretti used to make mtn bikes--maybe still does, but you don't hear anyone talking about it around here. It's just interesting.

[jhcakilmer]

Other than having fun I thought the primary purpose of a bicycle was to use mechanical advantage to help propel ourselves more efficiently than walking?

How does electronic shifting contradict that?


Exactly, it's a mechanical advantage, but the force is still applied by a human, that's the entire purpose of a bike. If you want a motor on your bike, ride a Fat Boy.....they're fun too!!!

Also, I can't believe people are comparing the number of gears, to motorized shifting.......the number of gears just gives the rider more gear choices, to help modify the mechanical advantage.....it's not replacing human force with a motor.

I know it's

[97CSI]

.. its really going to be about battery tech at this point.At the '09 TdF it will be the Mavic neutral support vehicle followed closely by the Duracell neutral support vehicle. :D

The smart guys' helmets will be covered with solar cells.

[madcow]

Hi, I just couldn't resist posting on this topic, as this has been something I've been looking at for a long time now.

For the longest time, I rallied against Shimano to not do EDA. Now as I begin to understand more and more about it, I see the functionality come to light. So as I was against EDA for a long time, I now believe it is the future(like it or not).

First I thought perhaps I'd give a few specs and details on the current version....

Rear shifting is equivalent to current model. Front shifting is almost instantaneous(amazingly fast), the front derailleur trims itself with every single shift of the rear. The battery lasts for an average of 1500 miles. The weight is almost the same as the current DA. Derailleurs are rapid rise. LCD screen in the top of the STI. It is NOT wireless, as a matter of fact at least one of the largest bike manufacturers in the U.S. is working on a frame with internal wiring that the EDA will just plug into. These are all known things, there are a couple of aspects that I have still been sworn to secrecy on, but other than that, it's not a huge change from current DA.

A lot of people see this as no real advancement, and that's probably true, but that's not the reason for this group. Mechanical kits have really reached the end of development. To really get some advancement over the coming decades this change has to happen. And the possibilities it opens are pretty limitless. Shimano is working with SRM to develop some sort of integrated power meter. They also have patents on pulley wheels that measure all of the standards, such as speed, cadence, etc... The ability down the road to integrate GPS, MP3, and a lot of other things is what will drive this group.

So think of this group as a landing on a flight of stairs. You've reached the top of one level and to continue to go up, you have to side step so that you can begin again on a new run.

Here's a thread that contains most of the current information, it spans Dec. 06 to current.... It includes most of the news on EDA as well as that of Ultegra SL and it's place in the lineup. This has the most recent
http://fairwheelbikes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1929&sid=69ea920c88fcba1fe64e33a557fcc385

Here's a thread that contains a lot of ideas for the possibilities of EDA as well as pictures of the older prototypes... I think this thread is great because of the ideas, but also because a lot of the opinion comes from bike manufacturers and even a Tmobile riders opinion.
http://fairwheelbikes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1541&highlight=eda

Like it or not, electronic will happen. EDA is still scheduled to be officially announced and shown at Interbike. Campy's version is not that far off either. Neither will be available to the public before March of 08.

Here's a few pics of the most recent versions of both Campy and Shimanos....
http://fairwheelbikes.com/jw/45799.jpg
http://fairwheelbikes.com/jw/45800.jpg http://fairwheelbikes.com/jw/45802.jpg http://fairwheelbikes.com/jw/45813.jpg
http://fairwheelbikes.com/jw/45814.jpg
http://fairwheelbikes.com/jw/45815.jpg
http://fairwheelbikes.com/jw/45816.jpg
http://fairwheelbikes.com/jw/45817.jpg
http://fairwheelbikes.com/jw/45818.jpg http://fairwheelbikes.com/jw/45819.jpg

[madcow]

last couple of pics

http://fairwheelbikes.com/jw/45820.jpg
http://fairwheelbikes.com/jw/45820.jpg

[Jason E]

The first Campy Rear Mech Pic is now my Desktop Background.

Thanks.

[swoop]

well said and thanks for the post madcow (from ww?). as far as the american brand.. it hear it rhymes with the word 'mecialized'.. but shhhhhh.. its still a secret.

[merckx]

I can see frames made with a third set of "H20" bosses drilled just below where the standard down tube bosses exist so that the battery pack can be cleanly mounted. Campy and Shimano will have to agree on the configuration of these bosses so that you can mount either system on any machine.

[David Kirk]

Cool photos........thanks.

A bit disappointing to see that they aren't wireless. I wonder if the Mavic patent prohibits them from going wireless?

Dave

[bhungerford]

i agree, wish it was wireless, that's the best benefit i see of electronic, less clutter and cleaner lines, and the battery installation just looks messy, i know it's a prototype, but looks like it's getting close to production level...

[gt6267a]

one thing against wireless, it would require more batteries. instead of one monster bat, wouldn't each device need it's own power? in addition, i wonder, to get the wireless reliable, would it not eat more energy? or are these non-issues and already handled reliably by mavic a decade ago? dk set things right ... i thought one of the problems with the mavic group was missed shifts? or maybe that was for another reason.

the idea that the FD auto trims is fun.

[bhungerford]

auto trim is fun, not that manual trim is difficult, but one less thing to think about....

i think what electronic wireless DA needs is a Kirk that has internal wiring, and a battery that slides down the seat tube (don't ask me how you get it back out) and all the different electric bits just match up their connections when you bolt them on, that would be cool...

[David Kirk]

one thing against wireless, it would require more batteries. instead of one monster bat, wouldn't each device need it's own power? in addition, i wonder, to get the wireless reliable, would it not eat more energy? or are these non-issues and already handled reliably by mavic a decade ago? dk set things right ... i thought one of the problems with the mavic group was missed shifts? or maybe that was for another reason.

the idea that the FD auto trims is fun.

The Mektronic system uses 3 batteries (all the same). One in the computer/shifter, one in the rear derailuer and one in the pickup on the fork. A nice thing about it is that if one of the other batteries gets low you can switch out the batteries (stealing the fork one which draws so little current it never dies) and stay shifting. In a few years of use I never had to perform this act.

The Mavic system doesn't use battery power to shift. It uses battery power to pop a solenoid and the chain spinning the upper pulley powers the lateral move of the changer. A very good thing that allows for small watch batteries to be used.

Dave

[Bud_E]

I think electronic shifting could be pretty cool if they do it right.

( Are they working on power steering yet ? :D )

[benb]

I'm amazed that battery doesn't make a Record/DA grouppo weigh as much as a Sora/Tiagra group right now.

Batteries aren't light!

[gt6267a]

The Mektronic system uses 3 batteries (all the same). One in the computer/shifter, one in the rear derailuer and one in the pickup on the fork. A nice thing about it is that if one of the other batteries gets low you can switch out the batteries (stealing the fork one which draws so little current it never dies) and stay shifting. In a few years of use I never had to perform this act.

The Mavic system doesn't use battery power to shift. It uses battery power to pop a solenoid and the chain spinning the upper pulley powers the lateral move of the changer. A very good thing that allows for small watch batteries to be used.

Dave

i had not thought of a solenoid, that is cool. so 1) i am guessing it only shifts one gear at time. 2) how do you adjust the rd or does it have some auto trim like feature? 3) what about the fd?

[gdw]

"Shimano is working with SRM to develop some sort of integrated power meter. They also have patents on pulley wheels that measure all of the standards, such as speed, cadence, etc... The ability down the road to integrate GPS, MP3, and a lot of other things is what will drive this group."

Electronic components will probably be popular with the techies and the A.D.D. generation but no thanks. I enjoy cycling for it's simplicity and don't need electronics to entertain me or tell me where I am and the 1500 mile battery life wouldn't last two months in the summer. No thanks.

[Grant McLean]

The first Campy Rear Mech Pic is now my Desktop Background.

Thanks.

this stuff has been around for years...

Cyclingnews.com had a feature in April 2003.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=tech/2003/features/campy_elec


http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=photos/2003/tech/features/campy_elec/CN018

g

[Grant McLean]

i had not thought of a solenoid, that is cool. so 1) i am guessing it only shifts one gear at time. 2) how do you adjust the rd or does it have some auto trim like feature? 3) what about the fd?

Mavic never did an electronic Mektronic front system.

The Serotta I had with Mektronic in '94ish came with a mavic friction down tube shifter for the front derailleur!!
How's that for advanced!

g

[Grant McLean]

A lot of people see this as no real advancement, and that's probably true, but that's not the reason for this group. Mechanical kits have really reached the end of development. To really get some advancement over the coming decades this change has to happen. And the possibilities it opens are pretty limitless. Shimano is working with SRM to develop some sort of integrated power meter. They also have patents on pulley wheels that measure all of the standards, such as speed, cadence, etc... The ability down the road to integrate GPS, MP3, and a lot of other things is what will drive this group.




How about when the wireless verion comes, then Team Director sportif
can shift the riders gears for them from the team car :)

g

[benb]

What happens if the UCI bans this?

I can almost see it happening, and I can see it being justifiable. It's just tech for techs sake.

What do you think this will cost? $2500-3000 for the groupset?

[jhcakilmer]

What happens if the UCI bans this?

I can almost see it happening, and I can see it being justifiable. It's just tech for techs sake.

What do you think this will cost? $2500-3000 for the groupset?


I can only hope the UCI will make the right call on this issue. In long stage races, I definitely think that shifting of gears so many times adds to the riders fatigue, especiallly over 3000km+.

If this is an inevitable future, I still hope they keep making a few "natural" actuation grouppos!!

I like my bikes certified organic!!!...... :p

[benb]

I guess I should just shut up.

My collection of Shimano parts is now down to just 2 pairs of pedals and 2 sets of cleats.

If this is damage control in their attempt to get me back to where I was 2 years ago when I had 100% Shimano components.. it's going to fail. I'm glad I dumped them if this is their direction.

They have plenty of mechanical things they could have improved instead. XTR seems so far behind SRAM it's not even funny. Road is definitely murkier, I've got less to complain about there for sure.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . will be incredibly popular.

BBD

[Big Dan]

.

[Grant McLean]

. . . will be incredibly popular.

BBD


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMxJFsyR85o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EoNdgjUjOUU&mode=related&search=

g

[benb]

I don't think I have any Italian components. :P And if both Shimano and Campy go electric AND have better shift performance then a mechanical SRAM I will still be very happy to have SRAM.

If it works perfectly my only beef will be with the battery. I just hate charging batteries. That's enough to keep it off my bike.

I'd need to buy 5 battery packs just to make absolutely sure I don't have to skip a ride because the battery is dead. It's way too easy to miss something like that when you're hammering out as many miles as you can while at the same time working a lot and dealing with "life" in general.

I see this along the lines of Euro-Pro versus everyone else too. They only see the benefits, as they have a mechanic come and silently make their bike perfect every night. If it breaks, the team car fixes things in an instant.

I was very against Mountain biking adding "Pits" like Cyclocross a year or two ago for the same reasons. If the pro racer has to fix everything themselves we are near 100% guaranteed our ability to fix our bikes on the side of the road or trail. This seems to be against the current culture of top level racing, and IMHO it's against the spirit of these electric components too.

If it were up to a vote I'd probably vote to eliminate team cars & radios in road racing too.

[chuckroast]

This is like Richard Tracy and the levitation space ship. Maybe Shimano can next work on a secret project to develop a crank arm/ bottom bracket booster utilizing the magnetic fields of the earth.

[RPS]

What happens if the UCI bans this? .......snipped.....There is so much money involved, it is highly unlikely that would ever happen. Shimano must already have assurances from UCI IMO.

[RPS]

.....snipped.......
I was very against Mountain biking adding "Pits" like Cyclocross a year or two ago for the same reasons. If the pro racer has to fix everything themselves we are near 100% guaranteed our ability to fix our bikes on the side of the road or trail. This seems to be against the current culture of top level racing, and IMHO it's against the spirit of these electric components too.

If it were up to a vote I'd probably vote to eliminate team cars & radios in road racing too.Similar to the old days of auto racing when the drivers built the cars or at least assisted in the process. Today race drivers just drive and other experts design, fabricate, and maintain the cars. It quickly goes from being a weekend hobby to big business. Personally I found the old way more entertaining.

[hiwansson]

i agree, wish it was wireless, that's the best benefit i see of electronic, less clutter and cleaner lines, and the battery installation just looks messy, i know it's a prototype, but looks like it's getting close to production level...

I agree as well. It's very dissapointing that Shimano and Campy seem to stick with wires. With today's wireless technology, there shouldn't be a problem with developing a cost effective solution with sufficient battery life. Technologies such as Bluetooth, WLAN, or perhaps UWB can be made to utlize very low power for transmitting and receiving over these distances. Chip sets should be available for 5-10 bucks or so.

/H

[RPS]

The Mektronic system uses 3 batteries (all the same). One in the computer/shifter, one in the rear derailuer and one in the pickup on the fork. A nice thing about it is that if one of the other batteries gets low you can switch out the batteries (stealing the fork one which draws so little current it never dies) and stay shifting. In a few years of use I never had to perform this act.

The Mavic system doesn't use battery power to shift. It uses battery power to pop a solenoid and the chain spinning the upper pulley powers the lateral move of the changer. A very good thing that allows for small watch batteries to be used.

DaveInteresting that we don't really know how much power our present systems use to make the actual shift since much of the required force may be required to overcome cable friction and return springs. I'm still surprised that a micro-size generator is not integrated to keep the battery charged.

[Grant McLean]

I agree as well. It's very dissapointing that Shimano and Campy seem to stick with wires. With today's wireless technology, there shouldn't be a problem with developing a cost effective solution with sufficient battery life. Technologies such as Bluetooth, WLAN, or perhaps UWB can be made to utlize very low power for transmitting and receiving over these distances. Chip sets should be available for 5-10 bucks or so.

/H

Just an interesting aside... if you buy a new complete bike, or a custom frame
that is built with electronic drivetrain specs in mind, does it have braze on's
for conventional cable routing???

g

[RPS]

Just an interesting aside... if you buy a new complete bike, or a custom frame
that is built with electronic drivetrain specs in mind, does it have braze on's
for conventional cable routing???

gI'd guess yes initially until the technology is completely accepted; as was the case with downtube shifter bosses. My $0.02.

[Grant McLean]

I'd guess yes initially until the technology is completely accepted; as was the case with downtube shifter bosses. My $0.02.

actually, mine was a rhetorical question. :)

i'd never buy a disc brake bike with Canti braze ons,
or a v-brake bike with disc tabs.... just sayin'...

g

[Lifelover]

Exactly, it's a mechanical advantage, but the force is still applied by a human, that's the entire purpose of a bike. If you want a motor on your bike, ride a Fat Boy.....they're fun too!!!

Also, I can't believe people are comparing the number of gears, to motorized shifting.......the number of gears just gives the rider more gear choices, to help modify the mechanical advantage.....it's not replacing human force with a motor.

I know it's


You signature says it all :D

[jhcakilmer]

True that..... :D