Ti Stem Failure

[medici]

I'd appreciate any comments you might have on this one.

I was finishing my ride today and rolling up to the front
door when I was suddenly holding my bars in my hands
due to the stem snapping. Shock and awe, to be sure.
No tumble. No harm done, other than my confidence
in my equipment.

Nothing against Ibis, the manufacturer. I've had a number
of their ti stems and they've been excellent. I've popped
a binder bolt, but never had the stem proper fail. I expect a
ti stem to be just about forever. Not any more.

Factors:

-- this is a late model polished Ibis stem. Probably when
the emphasis was on light weight. The stem walls
seem very thin.

-- it was on a fixed gear with bullhorn bars, which seems,
in hindsight, like it would put more leverage on the stem
than a normal setup, especially with the torque you apply
when standing on hills.

-- it's a 140 stem, very long in stem terms.

Pete

[Fivethumbs]

Wow! That and sudden fork failure are the two scariest things I can think of. I've read that if titanium products that are not sufficiently bathed in the intert gas that the weld can easily become contaminated and therefore weakened

[barry1021]

that it happened when it did. Your setup probably did put extra pressureon it, but still has to be defective I would think.

b21

[Louis]

Send it back to Ibis. At the very least they might learn something (if they care to investigate) and if they care about their customers you'll soon have a brand new stem.

1) Have you owned the stem since new?

2) Has it ever been in a crash?

If the answers to these questions are "Yes" and "No" then it's either a crappy design (length should have been taken into account when sizing the wall thickness) or bad workmanship. Either way that's scary for that type of component.

Louis

[Len J]

how much torque the bars and the length put on a stem....if this hasn't been in a crash preciously, it shouldn't fail like that. If I worked for IBIS, I would feel blessed (from a legal liability standpoint) that that failure happened rolling up to the house....that could have been really scary.

You were lucky.

Let us know Ibis's response...it should be revealing.

Len

[soulspinner]

I guess I would be one of those who wouldnt want another stem from them. The luck in not breaking my neck with the first one would be enough of an intelligence test. :banana:

[Peter P.]

I don't have direct experience with titanium failures, but if I recall, I've heard that when titanium fails, it fails with cracks that propogate relatively quickly versus steel. Your lack of warning (i.e., bending versus your complete, sudden separation) seems to bear this out.

I don't think you'll get this warranteed because the Ibis that's in business NOW is not the Ibis that was in business when you purchased the stem; it's a different entity, and I don't believe they have a legal responsibility to honor your claim. You've got nothing to lose by trying, of course.

[CNY rider]

Wow that is scary stuff.

And now for a slight diversion: How do you like those Speedblend tires? I have a pair in the basement but haven't got around to mounting them yet.

[bshell]

Is there a way to measure how fortunate you were? I think not.

Just so you all know, THAT Ibis has been gone for 7 years now.

The new Ibis (2 years) is completely different in that they don't currently offer any steel, ti, or aluminum frames. Carbon only. And they don't make OR offer any welded stems, posts, etc.

Their house brand aluminum stems, bars, posts are of high quality and are made in Asia right alongside thousands of other quality components that end up with a different brand name.

Why that one broke would be interesting to find out. You might get a little insight if you email Scot at Ibis or if you happen to know anyone else well versed in metals that could show you the signs of fatigue or corrosion or ???

Mainly, just count your blessings and inspect your equipment regularly.

[weiwentg]

I don't have direct experience with titanium failures, but if I recall, I've heard that when titanium fails, it fails with cracks that propogate relatively quickly versus steel. Your lack of warning (i.e., bending versus your complete, sudden separation) seems to bear this out.

I don't think you'll get this warranteed because the Ibis that's in business NOW is not the Ibis that was in business when you purchased the stem; it's a different entity, and I don't believe they have a legal responsibility to honor your claim. You've got nothing to lose by trying, of course.

the original founders seem to be involved with the new Ibis. chances are they'd replace it if they could (and if it was a lifetime warranty item). however, no mention is made of ti stems on the new website. the website links to some people who stock replacement parts for old Ibises, and none of them mention ti stems either. the OP could ask, and they might give a bit of a discount on some new goodies, but I very much doubt there's a replacement in the works.

[medici]

Wow that is scary stuff.

And now for a slight diversion: How do you like those Speedblend tires? I have a pair in the basement but haven't got around to mounting them yet.

Scary, indeed. I've had 3 stem failures over the years, and fortunately they were all at low speed.

Speedblends -- they're excellent. Actually they're Rivendell Ruffy Tuffys with the patented speedblend coloring by Grant Peterson. Both Ruffy Tuffys and Rolly Polys are fine tires. Rivendell happened to be out of the standard Ruffy Tuffys when I needed replacements for my Specialized Armadillos. For a fixed gear my emphasis is on puncture resistance first and handling second. But the Ruffy Tuffys handle/ride so much better than the Armadillos. And the Rolly Polys even more so. I believe Panaracer makes them to Rivendell's spec. They're only available in 27C, which is fine for my purposes but won't fit most carbon forks.

Note I haven't said anything about the colors. You WILL get reactions. Most
folks think they're pretty slick, but others will deny that they know you. They have to be seen in motion to realize the intended effect.

Pete

[medici]

I don't have direct experience with titanium failures, but if I recall, I've heard that when titanium fails, it fails with cracks that propogate relatively quickly versus steel. Your lack of warning (i.e., bending versus your complete, sudden separation) seems to bear this out.

I don't think you'll get this warranteed because the Ibis that's in business NOW is not the Ibis that was in business when you purchased the stem; it's a different entity, and I don't believe they have a legal responsibility to honor your claim. You've got nothing to lose by trying, of course.

As Peter notes, Ibis isn't in the stem business anymore. And, really, I have no wish to slam Scot or Ibis. In my mind, this just happened to be an Ibis stem. It might have been after he sold the company and it started its death spiral for all I know. I have a Spanky which has been terrific along with other Ibis ti stems.

But I've thought about sending the photos to Scot for his reaction. Thanks for the prod.

Pete

[vaxn8r]

My Ibis ti stem developed hairline cracks about 10 years ago. Fortunately I noticed it while cleaning the bike, which I do frequently. They sent me a new one no questions asked.

I still have it (the new one) and it's a 130 quill. If anyone is interested 50$ takes it.

[Peter B]

As Peter notes, Ibis isn't in the stem business anymore. And, really, I have no wish to slam Scot or Ibis. In my mind, this just happened to be an Ibis stem. It might have been after he sold the company and it started its death spiral for all I know. I have a Spanky which has been terrific along with other Ibis ti stems.

But I've thought about sending the photos to Scot for his reaction. Thanks for the prod.

Pete


PdlP,

If Scot takes no interest, let me know and I'll drop it off for Steve's assessment/opinion.

PBPete

[Birddog]

Vax, were you asleep during that marketing course? I'm not sure this is the best thread to try and sell an Ibis stem.

Birddog

[medici]

Vax, were you asleep during that marketing course? I'm not sure this is the best thread to try and sell an Ibis stem.

Birddog

No so! Some fool just told him he'd take it!

Pete (the fool)

[Smiley]

Ibis as was said was done years ago and the new Ibis maybe in name and original founder only. My guess is Scot Nichol won't have anything to do with that failed stem as it was the responsibility of his old done company. Ben Serotta sold Fat City bikes back to Chris Chance for $ 1 for this and many other reasons, who wants to own the previous business liabilities now a days.

Check your equipment regularly as my guess is that stem had a crack around the weld for awhile and you did not notice it. I have seen Ti crack around the weld on several bikes.

[David Kirk]

What does it look like inside? In the area of the break is there any discoloration inside?......purples or dark blues? Any white powder?

Dave

[medici]

What does it look like inside? In the area of the break is there any discoloration inside?......purples or dark blues? Any white powder?

Dave

Dave and all:

No purples or dark blues. Hardly any discoloration at all. Just a slight smudge on a small area. No white powder. There is some green stringy stuff on what would be the bottom of the 'arm' if it were mounted. Turns out to be remarkably like grease. What would the discolorations or powder indicate?

Other responses:

I bought the stem as "like new" on eBay. The only visible imperfection was a decal smudge. It was in excellent condition (visually).

No, I've never crashed the bike or stem. I doubt if there's 6-months' worth of normal riding time (by me) on the stem. I installed it when I switched to cow/bull horn bars. Hmm. Sounds like it's truly defective, huh?

Peter: The characteristic failure of ti (little warning) sure rings true. I take a walkway home that has a steep ramp (thump!) at both ends. I heard an odd clunk/creak today at both entry and exit, but it sounded more like my pump was clunking. I have no doubt that it was the stem in the process of failing.

Smiley: Excellent advice on checking ti (and all other) critical bits for cracks. I confess I don't often do that. I had a Merlin Extralight for ~15 years that I beat the crap out of and never had the slightest problem with. I think that lulled me into a false sense of ti invincibility. And I have another Ibis stem currently (of an older vintage and more robust looking) that I've used on my CSi hammer bike. Never a problem (but let me look at the welds again!)

So I'm seeing this as an anomaly that could happen with any good vendor. Although I wouldn't use another Ibis stem of that vintage.

Thanks for all the comments and food for thought. I'll see if Scot has any comments and am pursuing other possibilities for failure analysis.

Pete

[cpg]

It's likely a bad weld. Dave Kirk was asking about the color inside because he wanted to know if it the joint was back purged. In the absence of discoloration and/or white powder, it most likely was back purged. That's good but when a weld fails like that it's most likely due to a bad weld. Probably the welder keyholed it (blow through) and/or welded it too hot and undercut the extension tube. It's not because this is made of ti. It's because it was poorly welded atmo. But what do I know.

Curt

[David Kirk]

It's likely a bad weld. Dave Kirk was asking about the color inside because he wanted to know if it the joint was back purged. In the absence of discoloration and/or white powder, it most likely was back purged. That's good but when a weld fails like that it's most likely due to a bad weld. Probably the welder keyholed it (blow through) and/or welded it too hot and undercut the extension tube. It's not because this is made of ti. It's because it was poorly welded atmo. But what do I know.

Curt

What he said.

Dave

[saab2000]

I hope my own Ti stem is OK. I use this Cinelli Grammo and like it. It too is 14 cm.

[soulspinner]

It's likely a bad weld. Dave Kirk was asking about the color inside because he wanted to know if it the joint was back purged. In the absence of discoloration and/or white powder, it most likely was back purged. That's good but when a weld fails like that it's most likely due to a bad weld. Probably the welder keyholed it (blow through) and/or welded it too hot and undercut the extension tube. It's not because this is made of ti. It's because it was poorly welded atmo. But what do I know.

Curt

Thank you for the explanation. Not everybody would come forward with information like this. And Id guess you know quite a bit. Thank you. :beer:

[Erik.Lazdins]

Good to hear you didn't go down!

You must have some good bike handling skills!

[vaxn8r]

Vax, were you asleep during that marketing course? I'm not sure this is the best thread to try and sell an Ibis stem.

Birddog
Yeah, well I'm not afraid of stuff. In the last 25 years of serious cycling I've seen every part on a bike break. Seriously. I've seen AL stems snap and I've seen stem bolts snap too.

Don't think anything is immune from breakage.

Ibis was a super solid company that made beautiful and functional stuff and I was sad to see them go. I'd buy any of their old stuff and not give it a second thought.

[regularguy412]

I hope my own Ti stem is OK. I use this Cinelli Grammo and like it. It too is 14 cm.

I ran the Cinelli Grammo Ti quill bolted into an F1 fork on my CSI for over 30,000 miles ( 12 cm ). It's now seeing service on my TG with nary a whimper. I'd not be too concerned.

Mike in AR

[sc53]

Saab: please wash or change out that bar tape! That nice red bike looks far too pretty for that nasty tape :))

[saab2000]

Saab: please wash or change out that bar tape! That nice red bike looks far too pretty for that nasty tape :))

NEVER!!! It's the sign of a ridden bicycle!!

Hey, I'm in Alexandria too for now. If you wish to see some of my other bikes with dirty handlebar tape let me know!! Just finished 41 miles on my Merckx Ti with dirty tape! :D

Sorry for the thread hijack...... :o

[swoop]

and dirty underwear is sign of worn clothing? when is bartape a petri dish?

[saab2000]

and dirty underwear is sign of worn clothing? when is bartape a petri dish?

Hmmmm......

It works. Don't want to drop the coin for new tape. I guess that's the deal here.

BTW, I wash my clothing. Bought Giordana shorts from our buddy in Boston and wash them by hand. The rest is in the machine as we speak.

[vaxn8r]

and dirty underwear is sign of worn clothing? when is bartape a petri dish?
I think it's called "bio hazard" ;)

[medici]

XX

[medici]

Sorry. I mis-clicked. Here's the whole thing.

And now back to our featured presentation.

For those of you still interested, I sent the photos and some questions to Scot Nicol of the old and new Ibis. He promptly sent me a very nice response and offered his thoughts. Seems unfair to post his reply without permission, so I'll just summarize.

-- all of the Ibis stems were done in-house, so outsourcing can't be blamed

-- he said they made thousands of ti stems and had few failures

-- they were very meticulous with their welding process, he said contamination is really unlikely

-- since this stem is polished, he thought perhaps the polishing process could have possible undercut one of the welds or thinned the already thin wall thickness of the tubing

-- he confirmed that the 140 mm stem with bullhorns on a fixed gear is a tough application

-- and said that ti usually gives warning via cracks prior to failing, so check your precious bits

I tend to agree with Curt/Dave -- bad weld to begin with. I'm hoping to send it to a local framebuilder who works with ti a lot and is interested in weld failures. If anything interesting comes of that. I'll post it.

Thanks again for the replies, and remember to check your precious bits regularly.

And now for more messages on bar tape hygiene.

Pete