Where there's smoke, there's fire!

[Roy E. Munson]

From Velonews:

"A soon-to-be-published book entitled "L.A. Confidential: The Secrets of Lance Armstrong" alleges that the five-time Tour de France winner has been involved in doping since recovering from cancer in 1998.

Charges made in the book, co-written by award-winning Sunday Times sports reporter David Walsh and Pierre Ballester, a cycling specialist formerly with L'Equipe, appear in this week's L'Express, a weekly magazine. The book itself is slated for release on Tuesday.

Their book recounts the allegations of a former U.S. Postal physiotherapist that Armstrong used the banned blood booster EPO (erythropoietin). Irishwoman Emma O'Reilly, who worked with Armstrong for three and a half years beginning in 1998, alleges that he asked her to dispose of bags containing syringes after the 1998 Tour of Holland, only months after the Festina scandal at the Tour de France almost brought the race to its knees.

O'Reilly also charges that in May 1999, while Armstrong was at a training camp in the Pyrénées, she was asked to drive to Spain to collect drugs and bring them back into France, which she later handed to Armstrong in a parking lot.

While O'Reilly left the team at the end of the 2000 season, she did so under good terms. Former Postal general manager Mark Gorski once referred to the now-33-year-old soigneur as "the heart and soul of the team."

Armstrong has always denied doping

"She's so professional and has a wonderful influence on the other staff members and the riders," Gorski told Sam Abt of the International Herald Tribune. Gorski said. "She brings a woman's sensitivity to guys' personalities, their differences in personality, all kinds of things that a male soigneur just can't bring."

The 33-year-old Armstrong has always strenuously denied using any performance-enhancing substances. While traces of the corticosteroid triamcinolone, a banned substance found in some medicines and creams, were found in his urine during the 1999 Tour, the UCI did not sanction Armstrong in the matter, saying that he had used the cream Cemalyt to treat a skin allergy, and that it had been given a copy of the prescription for the cream.

"The UCI declares with the utmost firmness that this was an authorized usage, and does not constitute a case of doping," the governing body said in a statement.

However, O'Reilly's claims are supported by New Zealander Stephen Swart, a former teammate of Armstrong's on Motorola during 1994-95. Swart, who retired from professional cycling nine years ago, said he felt pressured to begin doping.

"Motorola was throwing all this money at the team and we had to come up trumps," he is quoted as saying in the book, to be published this week.

This is not the first time that Walsh has shone a less-than-flattering light upon Armstrong. Days before the start of the 2001 Tour in 2001 Walsh wrote that Armstrong had had close links with Dr. Michele Ferrari, formerly physician to the Gewiss-Ballan team, which he was forced to leave after he said that the banned blood booster EPO, if used properly, was no more harmful than orange juice.

Armstrong countered that he had only consulted Ferrari on advanced training methods with a view to attempting to break the world hour record.

As regards the new book, meanwhile, Armstrong has sent Walsh a letter threatening a costly legal battle if the book contains allegations that he has resorted to doping.

[Elefantino]

His denials to this point have been most convincing. And he has built his foundation, not to mention his reputation and his bank account, on his good word. I just can't see it.

There are probably going to be a lot of I-told-you-sos by the anti-Lance crowd.

Makes for interesting board fodder, though.

Mike

[oracle]

true enough roy, but what is not always so clear is the locus of the smoke, as well as who started the fire in question.

oracle

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . particularly for people looking for book deals. On the other hand, why would a soigneur with a good reputation come out with accusations that will make it impossible for her to get another job as such?

To me the most important question is what kind of corroboration can she offer? Where is the proof? Where are the other witnesses? Where is the positive drug test?

In addition, what of her co-authors? . . . <<co-written by award-winning Sunday Times sports reporter David Walsh and Pierre Ballester, a cycling specialist formerly with L'Equipe>>

Isn’t Walsh the reporter for the Times who has been on the warpath against Lance for several years? . . . And L’Equipe is certainly known for their anti-Lance tilt. Might convenient timing of publication to sell some books as the tour approaches . . . kind of like Mark Anthony allegedly marrying J. Lo days before he released not one, but TWO new CD’s . . .

Yep, where there’s smoke there’s often fire. But sometimes the smoke is really just a smoke screen blown to conceal a bunch of hype by people looking for cash . . .

BBDave

[Kevin]

Considering the number of drug tests that Lance has taken without testing positive, I believe that he is entitled to the benefit of the doubt. It sounds like a tabloid type book.

Kevin

[soulspinner]

Its the timing that bothers me. Just before a possible sixth win? Where was this all these years? Im not saying it did or didnt happen. Wouldnt mind seeing Tyler win anyway....

[dirtdigger88]

Roy,

Is there anything in life that give you pleasure beside peeing on other's parades. You just seem to always be the voice of desention? Not that that is a bad thing, every group need one. I just wonder how you ended up this way? Did your parents not give you enough love? Do you need a group hug to make things better? Oh yeah and as I stated before, lets talk in the end of July when you are sending me my preimum NA ;)

Jason

[Roy E. Munson]

I think living in the USA made me this way. :p
Now how boring would this forum be if we all sat around blowing sunshine up each other's asses about how great Serotta is, or how great Lance is, or how great the USA is?
I agree, until Lance fails a drug test, there's nothing can be proven about his drug use, and this book reek's of an opportunist at work. But as Elefantino points out though, makes for great forum fodder.

[vaxn8r]

Drug testing is so far behind the science of doping it isn't even funny. I don't pretend to know who is doing it or what they do (actually I do have an idea about that) but doping is the easy part. Expensive but easy. Catching them is hard.

[e-RICHIE]

"...doping is the easy part. Catching them is hard."



true.
well said.
e-RICHIE

ps

:no: :no: :no:
:no: :no: :no:
:no: :no: :no:

[Johny]

Drug testing is so far behind the science of doping it isn't even funny. I don't pretend to know who is doing it or what they do (actually I do have an idea about that) but doping is the easy part. Expensive but easy. Catching them is hard.

Anyone read the May (2004) issue of Procycling? All sorts of doping methods since the first day of bike racing.

[va rider]

Yup, I am sure LA is the only guy doping in cycling. Certainly, Jan Ullrich or any other top contender does not dope.

Man, do you have a hard on for LA or what.....

[SBash]

I bet the all do it and that's too bad!

[e-RICHIE]

it's an inhumane way to earn a
living. not much different from
the dance marathons in the "old
days".
go see the movie "They Shoot Horses,
Don't They?". it's a parallel universe.

e-RICHIE

ps

:crap: :crap: :crap:
:crap: :crap: :crap:
:crap: :crap: :crap:

[William]

Sure it's possible. But until there is some credible evidence, I like that innocent until proven guilty concept....except in the case of OJ. :butt:


William

[Dekonick]

Hope it is not true. If it is, I am sure he is not the only one. I doubt he was doping back in high school, or when he won the tour du pont, etc...

as to the European pro peleton? I know from a friend that there was HUGE pressue in the late 80's to dope. Today, I am sure there are ways to get a competitive edge, but regardless it has to HURT LIKE HELL to ride the alps the way they do. Just the pain alone is enough to make me watch in amazement. I sure wish I could ride like that! :p

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . not to stick with my current opinion . . . Namely, that there is an upper echelon of riders who really do have the genetic edge to do as well as they do in their specific specailties. Lance . . . Tyler . . . Ulrich . . . Cipo . . .

And then there are the second echelon riders who are just not quite up to that level genetically and are the ones who either succumb to the pressure to dope or do their turns as domestiques and then fade from the scene.

BBDave

[sfscott]

First, athletes who beat testing, particularly for EPO taper before events when they can expect to be tested. As Lance points out in his second book, he is tested randomly and is done so wherever he may be. I believe he has to tell the USADA where he's going to be.

Second, it is unlikely that he would take 'roids. More body mass=more weight, which I believe would be antithetical to endurance activities like road racing. Track, yes, road no.

Third, let us not forget the investigation that happened in France.

I wonder why no one thought of calling out Indurain. He was just as dominant and doping is not a 1999-onward phenomenon.

[vaxn8r]

Let me say that I like Lance A.

But I do believe drug use is pervasive, not just in cycling but in most every sport....mostly anywhere where there are huge sums of money to be made...or not made... It is expensive to get the good stuff. Regular guys, even college athletes pretty much can't afford the good stuff. But if you have the financial resources ie. pros, you can get some good stuff.

Not all steroids cause increased muscle mass. Some do but other just make you as strong and fast as a horse and ready to come back the next day for even more punishment, as fresh and stonger than ever.

Epo is the tip of the iceberg because checking hematocrits is one of the few ways they can actually catch these guys. No test for growth hormone. It's really tough to test for water soluable steroids.

I'm really not an expert but I know some former pro athletes and I know some medicine. I don't respect the pro's in any sport anymore. There are plenty of great "natural" athletes that don't make it in the pros because they refuse to compromise themselves. There probably are some pros that don't need to use anything. Problem is the majority of them do and they 've ruined sports for everyone else. Sad but true.

[shinomaster]

I know I told this story before but two times is twice as good right?

Ok it's not a story but an anecdote. A friend of mine in Boston is pro-mountain bike racer and he trains with Tyler Hamilton when Tyler is back in town. And according to this clown Tyler "said" that Lance was a big abuser of drugs before he had cancer, and that he still does use mean nasty drugs.

I truly hope to God, and Allah and the Kwanza God..that my friend (ok he is an acquaintance) is full of crap, but I somehow fear the worst.. Money buys better drugs than EPO, like N.A.S.A. drugs or synthetic hemoglobin..or crack or who knows..

ok , never mind..

sleep tight,

Johnny boy

[shaq-d]

there's little doubt in my mind basically everyone in pro cycling, and maybe sports, cheats. the insane gain in average speed of the tour de france over the years is truly insane. i bet, if graphed, it would look exactly the same as the yearly profit graphs of the drug companies...

sd

[bulliedawg]

I don't think it's coincidence that Lance is a cancer survivor and the most dominant cyclist of his generation. I am not willing to say that he cheats, as there's no evidence. But I think that Lance learned some things about his body when we was battling cancer that give him an advantage over the other riders in the peloton. And I don't mean he just learned about his ability to endure pain; I mean he learned things that make him able to ride faster and farther than everyone else.

[Andreu]

He (Lance) certainly lost a lot of bulk due to the cancer which has helped him in long tours. In pictures of him before cancer he looks positively muscular. Whether he takes drugs or not....who knows...? Are these guys one step ahead of the testers?....Answer: alot of them probably are - Result: they all get tarred with the same brush. I maintain that we all have some part to play in this as we want to see three week tours over long hard mountains and we want to see Lance vs "whoever"....the sponsors know this and put pressure on the teams who in turn put pressure on doctors & trainers and ultimately the riders. Alot of the riders get paid pieceweight ...i.e. based on finishes, placings in races etc which puts them under pressure many of us have never experienced. The $ is king.
There´s too much noise and not enough honesty and fairness so there is no clear message coming across from the professionals or the governing bodies.
Very sad for the sport.
A

[jerk]

the riders ought to be allowed to look after themselves. -jaques anquetil

the jerk agrees.

[bostondrunk]

I firmly believe that Lance, along with most other riders, doped in the 90's. Wasn't there a big stink a while ago about Carmichael doping the American Junior squad, or something like that??
Does Lance use something now? Probably, but who cares, they all do.
Sounds like most of the books allegations will be pre-cancer stuff (Swart, etc.), for which Lance always says "I never tested positive..."..

[SBash]

If they all use drugs, than i loose my respect for them because they are not using there natural ability. Also, if they all use drugs, then would it be equal if they all did not use drugs? Do you think Eddy Merckx did this? I would like to think not.

SB

[Bruce H.]

It is sad to find that those that do not participate in these severe endurance sports continue to be the ones to try to squash those that do so and do so extremely well. Perhaps it is jealousy or maybe revenge for something that occurred in the past. Perhaps it is for publicity for the accuser as has been mentioned here.
In our wonderful democracy the one thing that has always bothered me is the ability for someone to say something that may not be true or file a lawsuit that has no merit (I am not suggesting Lance did or did not use drugs). The result being the costly (in terms of money and reputation) defense of the charges in a court of law or public opinion.
I could care less if one or more of these athletes use drugs. It has no effect upon my life other than to read about it and discuss it as we are here.
If one of them takes drugs then the rest most surely have to in order to compete on the same stage. If you accept this idea, then realize that the one who trains harder and better will still (as Lance has done) perform better than the others.
Bruce H. :bike: :bike:

[bostondrunk]

So Sbash, I assume you are not a fan of basketball, baseball, football, soccer,etc.
Cause bad news, they all (or -many- of them) use drugs/steroids...
Read Willy Voight's (sp?) book Breaking the Chain. Its a quick, entertaining read..

[Tony Edwards]

If they all use drugs, than i loose my respect for them because they are not using there natural ability. Also, if they all use drugs, then would it be equal if they all did not use drugs? Do you think Eddy Merckx did this? I would like to think not.

SB

Eddy Merckx did once say, "You don't win the Tour de France by eating sandwiches and drinking mineral water," or words to that effect. I have no idea what he did or didn't do, but drugs have clearly been a part of cycling for a long time. No doubt they are more prevalent now, however . . .

[SBash]

bostondrunk

You are correct, i'am not a fan anymore. I'am watching the NBA finals only because i played b-ball but my respect went down the tubes when the big money and drugs came into the picture. I would still like to think there are some that do not do this. That's where my respect would go.

SB

[e-RICHIE]

without drugs, the tdf would last 42 days.
without drugs, the winter 6 days would take 10 days.
without drugs, the hour record would take 74 minutes.

there are drugs that aren't on the banned list. yet!

recall delgado's use of a drug - but it would not
be on the banned list until months after he was
found to use it.

iirc, the same could be true of activogen. pls correct
me if i'm wrong.

when mcguire (sp?) was using nandro, it was banned
in the nfl but it was not banned in mlb.

they shoot horses, don't they?

e-RICHIE

ps

:argue: :argue: :argue:
:argue: :argue: :argue:
:argue: :argue: :argue:

[Climb01742]

without drugs, it would take two years to get a sachs. hey, wait, it DOES take two years to get a sachs. yo, richie, ever thought about some EPO? :rolleyes:

[Russ]

I am not sure, but was it Jacques Anquetil that said:

"You ask me if we take drugs?..."
"I am not going to answer that question... I am just going to tell you if you want to see a TDF where the average speed is 21 kph... or a fast TDF like this one"

[Dr. Doofus]

the doc had two coaches when he thought he was a racer (lining up into a pro 1-2 field messes with your reality perception): one had done the US circuit, and supplemented and self-medicated himself silly while staying within the rules, and the other may well have rubbed pack elbows with the jerk, and when asked "did you ever use anything" by one sort-of desperate doc who really wanted to cat up as if that meant something, the answer was "yes, but it won't do much for you"...becuase it may make a domestique into a stage winner, but it won't turn a weakass 2 into much.

another quote from maitre jacques sums it up nicely : small trees don't grow in the jungle.

as long as there have been fame and fortune in sport, there have been drugs. the doc still really likes bike racing...when its all said and done, the baddest mofo still wins....


speaking of the WADA...shoudn't Dick Pound be a porn star?

[e-RICHIE]

i think the general consensus is that no one
here really believes that no drugs are used;
that is, we expect that drugs are used and that
the pharmacological industry is taxed to provide
any possible help that will not be on the so-called
"banned list".
otoh, is anyone here that wants to step up and
suggest that these guys race on food and drink
alone? i'm all ears.
e-RICHIE

ps

:confused: :confused: :confused:
:confused: :confused: :confused:
:confused: :confused: :confused:

[Dr. Doofus]

E-RICHIE does it all on food and water...and coffee. And whatever is in those red twizzlers that the WADA hasn't figured out yet. i'll trade you this ad slogan for a frame:

"Its the Twizzlers, dammit"

[victoryfactory]

What's a drug?
What's a suppliment?
Does it get banned because it has a druggy sounding name, like EPO?
Or because some sports control commitee has never heard of it before?
If it's natural, is it not a drug? ie: Caffine, Nicotine, etc
The line is too fuzzy, What about vitamins? isn't it "unnatural" to load up
your system with extra minerals that you couldn't get naturally if you
ate an entire iron mine?
People have always tinkered with performance enhancment ever since the
cavemen discovered that if they ate a pile of fermented fruit, they got a buzz.

Drugs. It's only natural....

Too much of anything will kill you. Everything we put in our body affects our performance in some way or another....

VF, doped up as usual

[e-RICHIE]

victoryfactory wrote (snipped):
"isn't it "unnatural" to load up..."



not for professional cycling!!!
this is not a troll - what "they" do in "that" kind
of sport is NOT NATURAL. as long as there's an
audience for it, the bar will be raised with respect
to what "they" try to use in order to get away with
fine tuning the results. i can't say i blame them
and i am never surprised to hear that drug use
(banned, not banned...) is commonplace.
e-RICHIE

ps

;) ;) ;)
;) ;) ;)
;) ;) ;)

[Andreu]

I raced in Belgium on part of the Tour of Flanders course in a third division amatuer race many years ago (very tough) and came well down (42nd). The rules then (in that particular race anyway) were (if memory serves) that the first two or three were drug tested but could refuse, in which case they would pick at random other riders. In this particular race the winner and the second place both refused. I find it bizarre that "crap" riders (remember these are a long way off being pros - may potentially be on drugs). I have also been told that the top fondo riders (basically very good amateurs) in Italy are also doing drugs.
As I say -- Bizarre. I am crap and there is no drug in the world that is suddenly going to make me win big races...and even if they did what would I gain?
A
PS they tested me and I was clean by the way....trying to pee into a test tube whilst dehydrated with a Belgium doctor watching was one of the most wierd cycling race experiences I have ever had.

[Johny]

Too much of anything will kill you. Everything we put in our body affects our performance in some way or another....


You got it! That is why Lance goes to see Dr. Ferrari. Lance is afraid that he is drinking too much orange juice...

[my2cents]

I love how lots of people "know" that lance and "all" of the other riders are using banned substances.

Reminds of a guy who came into our bike shop one day and somehow we got talking about movies. This guy starts some diatribe about matt damon (the actor -- of good will hunting fame) and he started telling us all of the inside 'facts' about matt and ben afflick. These facts came from a reputable journal/magazine we were told. We questioned and disputed the 'facts' and he was quite animate about his version of the truth (one of the points was that ben and matt were no longer friends and actually strongly dislike one another) because of the excellent reputation of the author of the article he read. This was all very amusing to us -- ("us" as in me, several other riders and shop employees, and kyle, as in damon, matt's brother (who is an ironman triathlete and part of riding group)). Kyle was astonished to hear that Ben and matt weren't friends because when ben and matt had dinner at matt's mom's house two nights prior, they made no mention of hating each other.

i have been around world class athletes quite a bit (in a prior career i was a documentary camerman and did year long behind the scenes documentaries about the 85/86 celtics, 86/87 boston briuns, 87/88 patriots, 84 boston college football team, 83 u of texas football team, 87/88 greg lemond which never was edited among others) and as well as celebrities (i grew up around the entertainment industry as my father is a publicist/indepenent film producer, radio show producer, tv producer, founder of a state film bureau, etc. -- hell, when i was a kid for my birthday i got to go dune-buggying and on a glider ride with steve mcqueen when they were in town shooting the thomas crowne affair) --- my point is this, what many of you state as fact and 'know' with certainty is actually 'belief and speculation' at best, and ignorant slander more often than not.

ps. someone earlier in the discussion mentioned that a friend heard that tyler hamilton accused lance of doping. as one of those people that ocassionally has the great fortune to ride with tyler and his local club, i can say that tyler's accusation as described in the forum sounds completely out of character for him. In fact, several times on rides, when asked about doping in the peleton, he has very clearly stated that he is clean and has vouched for lance (to the best of his - tyler's knowledge) and his other american teammates over the years. he admits that on at least one occasion he learned that his faith in a rider was misplaced (the rider is retired but he won't say who it was/is). he also 'believes' that there are many riders who are doping, but does not 'know' this for a fact.

my whole point is this - if you don't actually 'know' something and there is no evidence to support your 'knowledge', think twice before stating the 'facts'.

(edited to correct the year of the celtics documentary from 85/85 to 85/86)

[e-RICHIE]

my2cents wrote (snipped):
"...85/85 celtics..."


the best starting five ever.
EVEREVEREVEREVERRRRRR.
e-RICHIE

ps

green green green
green green green
green green green

[bostondrunk]

Probably worth mentioning that even without drugs, the pros would still kick everyones ass, just at a slightly slower pace..:)

[e-RICHIE]

probably worth mentioning that even without drugs
it wouldn't be as much fun to discuss this topic in
the first place.
r.i.p. joey ramone
e-RICHIE

ps

:banana: :banana: :banana:
:banana: :banana: :banana:
:banana: :banana: :banana:

[Jeff Weir]

Speaking of drugs, considering the amount of drugs Aerosmith has consumed over the years, they would probably be in the tour if music hadn't gotten in the way.

[sfscott]

Or any other athlete like Barry Bonds?

You cannot prove a negative. Lance has been tested ad nauseum and never failed. He can't convince those who believe otherwise.

I think one reason that others are more competitive has less to do with the possibility that he has gone off the juice but rather, he has forced others to work and train harder. Kind of like Tiger Woods. Tiger hasn't gotten bad; others have taken up weight training, nutrition and other parts of his regimin. They have gotten better.

Maybe the rest of the peloton now trains in the winter and previews courses. Maybe they are training more and living less large.

[shaq-d]

I In fact, several times on rides, when asked about doping in the peleton, he has very clearly stated that he is clean and has vouched for lance (to the best of his - tyler's knowledge) and his other american teammates over the years. he admits that on at least one occasion he learned that his faith in a rider was misplaced (the rider is retired but he won't say who it was/is). he also 'believes' that there are many riders who are doping, but does not 'know' this for a fact.

my whole point is this - if you don't actually 'know' something and there is no evidence to support your 'knowledge', think twice before stating the 'facts'.


as if tyler would open up a bag of worms and openly accuse his former teammates. yawn.

as for knowledge vs. speculation, avg tour de france speed has gone up 10km/h since 1930s. (i say 1930s, because it's 20km/h since 1903, but that may be accounted for by much longer stages). average IQ has gone up throughout the century too. but while rise in avg IQ can be accoutned for by such things as nutrition and standard of living, i have doubts that a 10km/h increase can be attributed to such. i call it common sense. you call it speculation. fine.

here's the link for those intereseted in avg spd over the years of the tour de france, along with avg stage length, etc. http://www.experienceplus.com/tour_de_france_graphs.html#avgspd

sd

[M_A_Martin]

Writer alert
"While O'Reilly left the team at the end of the 2000 season, she did so under good terms."

Drugs or no drugs, perhaps she wanted her old job back and they couldn't give it to her.

Gotta make money somehow.

Cynical as always
Ginger

[BumbleBeeDave]

I think there is likely a great deal of truth to what you say. Many employees leave “on good terms” or “to pursue other opportunites” or “to spend more time with their family” when we know damn well what the real situation is . . . Happens all the time with stories we are covering--sources will talk off the record but nothing is ever officially confirmed so that we can reliably publish it.

If O’Reilly really DID leave the team on such good terms, then why is she not working with another team now? Of course I’m assuming she is not . . . but if she IS, then why would she participate in something like this that would totally ruin any reputation she has with her present employer? Likely answer . . . she has no present team and has no reputation left to ruin--for whatever reason we will probably never know.

Does anyone know anything more about O’Reilly? Is she working with another team now? Or is she driving a tour bus like Willy Voet? How about Walsh? What motive--besides money--would he have for what obviously seems to be a vendetta toward Lance? I think the L’Equipe connection speaks for itself--they have a well known track record of sensationalistic pursuit of Lance.

BBDave

[davep]

From Lance's web site http://www.lancearmstrong.com/lance/online2.nsf/html/dw-response

LEGAL NOTICE
RE: LANCE ARMSTRONG - FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

Lance Armstrong has reacted with concern and dismay at the false allegations made by David Walsh, Chief Sports Writer of the Sunday Times. The allegations appear in a forthcoming book entitled 'LA Confidential', co-written with Pierre Ballester and to be published in France. Extracts from the book have appeared in L'Express and some of the book's allegations were repeated in yesterday's Sunday Times.

Lance Armstrong utterly denies ever
having taken any performance enhancing drugs.

Accordingly, Lance Armstrong has instructed his lawyers to immediately institute libel proceedings

1) In the High Court in London against the Sunday Times and David Walsh seeking an injunction and substantial damages

2) In Paris, against David Walsh, Pierre Ballester, the publishers of 'LA Confidential' and the publishers of L'Express.

Proceedings will be filed in the High Court tomorrow.

Issued by Schillings, Royalty House, 72-74 Dean Street, London, W1D 3TL
Ref: KS/GB/JR/A113/1 Tel. 020 7453 2500 Fax: 020 7453 2600

[Tom]

So we accuse Armstrong of taking the easy way out. There's no way somebody can perform like that without chemical assistance, is there?

I know why I can't ride like him. It might be that my genetics aren't as good but I doubt it. My dad lived through six years in forced labor to the Nazis, a hitch in the 82nd Airborne, and fifty years of marriage to my mom. My mom, in her eighties, can do the tuck and roll off a step ladder and walk away from it. I think the real reason is that I'm not as ambitious, determined, driven and plain crazy.

Is he a mirror for ourselves? We see him and in him see what we cannot do. Are we, in fact, taking the easy way out by deciding he can't be honest?

Just wondering.

[dave thompson]

So we accuse Armstrong of taking the easy way out.....
Is he a mirror for ourselves? We see him and in him see what we cannot do. Are we, in fact, taking the easy way out by deciding he can't be honest?
Absolutely the best thought on this, ever!

[weisan]

I am very sensitive to the human conditions mentioned here but as I was reading through the thread, I can't help but be reminded of something else. I am not targeting at any individual here. Jesus said: "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." I don't want to be the one picking up the stone. :rolleyes:
===================================

"I have never tested positive."

Q. Did you have an extramarital sexual affair with Monica Lewinsky?
A. No.

Q. If she told someone that she had a sexual affair with you beginning in November of 1995, would that be a lie?

A. It's certainly not the truth. It would not be the truth.

Q. I think I used the term "sexual affair." And so the record is completely clear, have you ever had sexual relations with Monica Lewinsky, as that term is defined in Deposition Exhibit 1, as modified by the Court.

. . .
A. I have never had sexual relations with Monica Lewinsky. I've never had an affair with her.

========================================
"I am focusing on the tour."

"I have acknowledged that I made a mistake, said that I regretted it, asked to be forgiven, spent a lot of very valuable time with my family in the last couple of weeks and said I was going back to work. I believe that's what the American people want me to do, and based on my conversations with leaders around the world, I think that's what they want me to do, and that is what I intend to do."

========================================
"It's none of your business."

Now, this matter is between me, the two people I love most – my wife and our daughter – and our God. I must put it right, and I am prepared to do whatever it takes to do so.

Nothing is more important to me personally. But it is private, and I intend to reclaim my family life for my family. It’s nobody’s business but ours.

========================================

[oracle]

so what's your point, weisan? what is the nature of this implicit accusation by means of your clinton analogy?

oracle

[weisan]

I like Lance. I like Clinton. There are very few people I don't like. In fact, I have a mandate to LOVE. Again, I am not targeting any individual here and I am not making a political statement

The point I am trying to illustrate here is the universal sinful nature at work through the things we say and do, namely self-denial, self-deception, self-centeredness etc.

That's not to say I don't believe in Lance, that he did not take part in doping. I remain hopeful. I would rather take a lesson off the former President Reagan being the eternal optimist that the glass was always half full, not half empty. :D

[Climb01742]

in 1968, every long jumper on earth was leaping 25, 26 and a few 27 feet. then one night bob beamon flew 29 feet 2 inches. i have no idea whether lance dopes or not. i personally hope not. but extraordinary athletic feats happen. in 1968, all the logic on earth said 29 feet was not possible. even mexico city's thin air doesn't give someone an extra two feet. its just not possible, people said, to jump that far. but beamon did. maybe its not possible to win the tour clean...for most people. maybe it is for lance. i can't jump 29 feet. can you? does that mean that bemon didn't do it?

[vaxn8r]

Bob Beamon couldn't even reproduce it so that's not a very good analogy either.

I would not, and have not, gone so far as to say they all use dope. But I will stand my my assertion that the vast majority are doing it....in every pro sport. I am very incredulous when someone, anyone, can recover overnight from a superhuman type effort the day before. Yet we see this all the time in bike racing. That is not the nature of the human body (not the one time superhuman effort, but then to reproduce the superhuman effort again the next day). The classic example being in the '97 tour when Ulrich bonked about as badly as I've ever seen anyone bonk, then wins the mountain stage the next day. Possible? Maybe. Likely without help? Nope.

[oracle]

again a quote from mark spitz:

"I've been told in confidence by an Olympian who has won medals in the sport - I won't mention which - that all those people are on drugs, at the molecular level. "People have no clue how to test for that stuff. It's running rampant; it's so sophisticated that people just aren't getting tested for this sort of thing. They're running an Olympic Games and testing for drugs, but there's an asterisk as far as I'm concerned.
"You may be drug-free for everything they test you for but they aren't testing you for everything. They are testing for old-school drugs. "Those things were done 15 years ago and even five years ago. They aren't even up to speed on today's performance-enhancing drugs. If you know they aren't testing for those things, you can go ahead and take them because you're going to get off scot-free."
Mark Spitz

[shaq-d]

i should say, even though i think everyone's on drugs, i don't think an asterisk is deserved. i still believe that the winner suffers the most.

sd

[vaxn8r]

again a quote from mark spitz:

"People have no clue how to test for that stuff. It's running rampant; it's so sophisticated that people just aren't getting tested for this sort of thing. "You may be drug-free for everything they test you for but they aren't testing you for everything. They are testing for old-school drugs. "Those things were done 15 years ago and even five years ago. They aren't even up to speed on today's performance-enhancing drugs. Mark Spitz


This quote nails it on the head....with a sledge hammer. Exactly! Testing is way, way behind the science of doping. You almost have to be a moron to get caught today.

[Climb01742]

we're debating something we can never know for a certainty unless a) lance tests positive or b) he admits use one day. otherwise it's guilt by association. i'm not saying with any certainty that he doesn't dope. but why i would find it surprising if he did is this: having been as close to death as he was, would he pump loads of stuff into his body? i find it hard to believe. maybe i'm naive. maybe i'm buying lance's image. maybe i'm just hoping that he's clean. but circumstantial evidence plus logic doesn't always equal the truth. i do believe that many pro cyclists dope. but i'm not ready to then make the leap that every one does.

[William]

but why i would find it surprising if he did is this: having been as close to death as he was, would he pump loads of stuff into his body? i find it hard to believe. maybe i'm naive. maybe i'm buying lance's image. maybe i'm just hoping that he's clean. but circumstantial evidence plus logic doesn't always equal the truth. i do believe that many pro cyclists dope. but i'm not ready to then make the leap that every one does..

That's pretty much how I feel about. Until he admits that he's doped, or he fails testing, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. I know there are people who do drugs in one form or another in almost every sport. But comeing that close to death and living through it can really motivate you to do extrordinary things.

FWIW,

William

[slowgoing]

I hope my favorite doper beats all of your favorite dopers in the Toor dee France.

But then again, I don't watch the Tour because of the dopers. Now I watch because of Kristen Gum.

[Dekonick]

I am relieved to see that the smoking gun is really smoke and mirrors...circum. evidence! - HA!

He is still a superior athlete, whether he enhances or not. I still believe that most of his competitive edge comes from his cancer. The pain experienced by CA is reported to be some of the most severe pain you can have. My belief is this lets him just take a little more pain than most can, thus he can out last mere mortals. I may have a limited knowledge of physiology and chemistry, but what I do know tells me that there is not alot you can do to gain a big performance edge without either: 1) being able to test for it or 2) having some negative side effects.

Does using a tent constitute performance enhancing? He readily admits to using one. If it is not illegal, then its no big deal IMHO. Whats the difference from chewing amazon tree bark and eating dirt? If it makes you stronger then go for it. IF chewing amazon bark and eating dirt is made illegal its a different story.

Having said that, I hope he doesnt use. I have little doubt that many do.

Hey - while on the subject what constitutes cheating? A ton of people use drugs every day from ace inhibitors, ace blockers, statins, SSRI's, etc... Some of these meds do have performance enhancing side effects... but treat conditions that otherwise would wreck havoc on the patients.

Personally, I use whatever medication my doctor prescribes me. I try to eat healthy and I do excercise. I am glad that the pharmacutical companies make all of these new wonderous medications that enhance our lives. Lance would be dead were it not for some of the same substances that are banned.

So - I am curious: what do you think? Is using a technique, medication, etc... cheating if it is not banned? I dont think its that much different than when Greg Lemond used his aero bars and won the TDF. No one else had that advantage... and it was not deemed illegal.

Thoughts?

Crap - gotta run again - busy day at work.

[ericmurphy]

It seems to be an uncontroversial statement that many, if not most, members of the pro peloton are using performance enhancing drugs.

If this is true, it seems unlikely that a five-time winner of the TdF could be one of the few who is not doping. If Lance is doping, does it detract at all from his wins if virtually all of his competitors are also doping? Many have said that it's virtually impossible to compete on an international level if you aren't doping.

If Lance is being honest when he says he's never used performance-enhancing drugs, that makes his accomplishments even more breathtaking than they would otherwise be. Especially considering his own medical history.

I'd like to believe Lance does not dope. But if he does, I don't think that detracts from his glory at all, considering what he'd be up against if he didn't.