Floyd Guilty(?)! Good or Bad?

[Lifelover]

Without regards to the truth, if Floyd is found to be "guilty" of doping prior to/during stage 17, will it be a good or a bad thing for cycling and the general public.

My take is that if he is found guilty the general public will have the impression that doping was in large part responsible for what clearly was an amazing performance.

If single application doping can impact (or is thought to impact) performance to that degree we will see and all time high level of it throughout all levels of competitive sports. Maybe considerably more by amateurs than pros.

[mdeeds71]

I wonder if doping could still deliver that performance. I have seen first hand what heart and adrenaline will accomplish in field operations when in contact with the enenmy in the army...it goes beyond performance enhancement of any kind I know of and I have myself experienced it . I watched that stage live and still even if guilty...there was more to it...I believe he wanted it more...i.e. a survival instinct...Even if on performance drugs I would still think you would still feel the pain. How do you get beyond that without the like of morphine/codine/tylox? I recieved a cortosone shot in my knee after a airborne drop went bad. I was able to push harder but could still feel the pain to some extent and it took will to get beyond it.

I truley want him to be innocent...but as I watch this Giro with the hill finish the last thing on my mind is this cyclist is jacked up to do that. It is competition and I watch it for that. I don't look to see if the rider is on T or blood doping. I want and do believe it is still the better rider to achieve above and beyond the rest. I remember reading that caffein i.e. caffein above a certain level is not legal as well...I would be willing to bet that we don't think about that when we ride to the bakery or coffee shop...but that sure does the job on the way back...even when I fly it helps the early morning arrival after an all nighter going to Europe. Or, how about allegra D. I found out that I had to report that because it is performance enhancement (yeh I bet). I am not saying or even compairing these to those that we have talked about before...rather I am saying how many of us watch these races and while we do such as last year say...Oh he has to be so doped up to do that. Heck, I can say that when I drive to the airport on I78 here in PA/NJ since the drivers do some stupid sh!!!t. :no:

Bottom Line...I watch and support cycling for the competitiveness (and the Italian birds as Austin Powers would say :beer: )...nothing more...and even if I took T I could never compete on that level anyway. So whom am I to judge...I just want to ride hard anyway.

Mark

What no flames? :D

[David Kirk]

I don't think it matters much at this point. The damage was done long ago and salt added to the wound this past week,

I know that at this point I could give a crap what happens to him and I'll have a hard time watching this years Tour with interest.

And I'm a huge fan of cycling. If I feel this way how do the casual fans feel?

Dave

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . this whole thing has completed the task of making me not give a cr@p about pro cycling any more.

BBD

[BarryG]

I've stopped trying to figure this mess out. Too much of a schizophrenic roller coaster, whether to believe like Mulder, or not. Initial Landis trial testimony would convince me he was cheating and latest testimony has me convinced the French don't have a clue about running a lab that could withstand the slightest scrutiny.

The schizophrenic nature of the issue was clearly evident in Prudhomme's pronouncement today: "The doping case of Floyd Landis is in the hands of the court. We must let the system do its work" . . . (wow, did he really just say that and inject a little sanity into his circus? No wait, he wasn't finished) . . . "Really, there is no doubt. According to the positive results, Landis can't be the Tour winner."

[LesMiner]

If single application doping can impact (or is thought to impact) performance to that degree we will see and all time high level of it throughout all levels of competitive sports. Maybe considerably more by amateurs than pros.

There has been many TV documentaries where young people in their late teens or early twenties have taken testosterone and died from it. If the press hypes up the Landis doping based on his stage 17 performance there will be even more deaths. Something like "I take just enough to the extra kick I need", often the "just enough" increases then something bad happens.

[mdeeds71]

Fully agree...I had a crit last year where I had a cup of coffee about an hour before. I head into the sprint and see 211 bpm on my HR monitor as I cross the finish line (in 2nd :banana: ). It dropped as soon as I stoped my cadence. I can't imagine that if I were dopped up on T or something what might have happened...everthing will fail if it is stressed to much or to hard. FWIW I was 35 had a max of 195 tested and somehow went over that...perhaps my own adrenaline did it or the caffeen. :D I got my performance enhanced!

[J.Greene]

If single application doping can impact (or is thought to impact) performance to that degree we will see and all time high level of it throughout all levels of competitive sports. Maybe considerably more by amateurs than pros.

I'm not sure why people assume it was a single act of doping. When an athlete begins doping it's part of a program. You don't win the tour by experimenting with a few pills, shots or gels 2/3 of the way through the race.

JG

[amg]

Zzzzzzzzzz......Zzzzzzzzzzzz.......What? What? What was the question? :D

[jhcakilmer]

Fully agree...I had a crit last year where I had a cup of coffee about an hour before. I head into the sprint and see 211 bpm on my HR monitor as I cross the finish line (in 2nd :banana: ). It dropped as soon as I stoped my cadence. I can't imagine that if I were dopped up on T or something what might have happened...everthing will fail if it is stressed to much or to hard. FWIW I was 35 had a max of 195 tested and somehow went over that...perhaps my own adrenaline did it or the caffeen. :D I got my performance enhanced!


I don't know if I'd attribute your high HR to the coffee. If your HR dropped that quickly, then I think it might be a monitor malfunction. It happens. If your HR really drops that quickly, you'd probably be dead, or atleast unconscious.

Also, the kids that died must have been taking a incredibly high dose, or volume of T. It primarily promotes muscle and bone growth, which is effective for recovery, but not really "instantaneous" performance gains.....nothing like EPO.

[Bud_E]

I'd agree with those who say the damage is done already. I'm also finding myself losing interest in the outcome of the big tours. How can you care who wins a tour if there's a good chance his title will be stripped later? Regardless of whether Landis is found guilty I'm sure major sponsors are already thinking about heading elsewhere with their money.

25 years ago the drug testing was lax so even if the doping was as prevalent as it is now, cycling fans were at least shielded from the ugly truth. Now, especially with the raids on clinics and hotel rooms, the drug testing/enforcement is just serious enough to expose systematic doping at the top level and when a bust is made the drug officials take great relish in grandstanding in the media ( not to mention lab results that are leaked to the media in violation of protocol ). This doesn't succeed in significantly stopping the doping problem but does succeed in having the ugly side of the sport overshadow the beautiful side of the sport.

Doping is badly damaging the spectator aspect of the sport at the top level but I don't think the current cure is fixing it. Hopefully I'm wrong.

[michael white]

Yeah, you guys say all this now, but the next time a really dramatic story emerges at a Tour, a new American in yellow etc., you'll be all over it.

[mdeeds71]

I don't know if I'd attribute your high HR to the coffee. If your HR dropped that quickly, then I think it might be a monitor malfunction. It happens. If your HR really drops that quickly, you'd probably be dead, or atleast unconscious.

Also, the kids that died must have been taking a incredibly high dose, or volume of T. It primarily promotes muscle and bone growth, which is effective for recovery, but not really "instantaneous" performance gains.....nothing like EPO.


I was refering to it dropped approx 1-2 min after the line and it went to 180 or so. I have extensive cardio tests done in the military for my older (and more sensitive career) everthing from the basic stress test to echos. I even was on a test program for performance vs fatigue and it included coffee but not things like EPO or T, and it did screw things up a bit but it was more than just a cup. When I was doing these tests three soldiers at Ft. Bragg died of Cardiac Arrest during a 12 mile road march for the Expert Infantry Badge. The docs and investigation showed that they took one two doses of ultimate orange (creatine heavy). They were on no regiment but they had their systems fail.

Doesn't T also alter mood i.e. pain threshold?

[mdeeds71]

Again, I really don't care if guilty or not. He sucked the day before and rocked the next. If he was on a regiment he should not have had up/down days.

None the less it is hard to argue it was an inspirational ride.

I still am watching the Giro...I prefer this over the Rosie fiasco this morning...and it has better ratings.

Mark
Currently on my coffee regiment.
(Hey I have an all nighter to Zurich)

[J.Greene]

Again, I really don't care if guilty or not. He sucked the day before and rocked the next. If he was on a regiment he should not have had up/down days.
Mark
Currently on my coffee regiment.
(Hey I have an all nighter to Zurich)

Mark,
That is really wack. Good days and bad days are not indications of anyting but the fact those guys are human.

JG

[znfdl]

I really do not care, as I have lost all interest in professional cycling. A better question to ask is "Who has not doped?"

[Lifelover]

I'm not sure why people assume it was a single act of doping. When an athlete begins doping it's part of a program. You don't win the tour by experimenting with a few pills, shots or gels 2/3 of the way through the race.

JG

I did really mean to suggest that I believe a "single application" would help to that extent. I just think that it will be the perception of a lot of people.

G Greene

[mdeeds71]

Mark,
That is really wack. Good days and bad days are not indications of anyting but the fact those guys are human.

JG


You got what I said wrong...If you have good days and bad days...that is human performance...when you are doping it is designed to negate the bad days and push the good days harder. My point was that if he was on a structure of performance enhancement that previous day was not a good indication of it..that his Dr should be fired for the way he had highs and lows :D