OT BMW Oracle's surprising exit

[Onno]

Sorry to bring up sailing here, but a) I can't find a good sailing forum; b) America's Cup is broadcast on the same channel as lots of cycling; c) sailing is a lot like cycling in that it is about racing beautiful, efficient, engineless machines; and d) my wife really isn't interested in talking sailing! One benefit of talking about sailing is that it doesn't have a drug problem--the performance enhancing substance of choice being money.

So does anybody here have any insight into the pretty shocking demise of BMW Oracle? Is it the boat or the crew or both? What did they do to the boat after the 3rd race, that seemed actually to make it slower (at least downwind)? Has Luna Rossa been sandbagging in previous rounds? It is amazing that they led around EVERY mark for all 6 races. That is total dominance. And how about the plucky Spanish team? Brilliant race yesterday, made more interesting by finally being able to hear some of onboard discussions of the afterguard on the boat.

Onno

[kestrel]

Onno, I'm not that well schooled on these boats, and haven't watched much of the LV cup this year, but I think when a boat is beaten as badly as BMW/Oracle, it can't be the crew or the skipper. One boat was clearly superior getting through the water.

[rnhood]

I look at this forum every couple weeks or so.

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=12

It is not a racing forum but, it does have some good threads and is worth keeping an eye on from time to time.

Sailboat racing is very expensive if one is to be competitive - even in the small boat venue like the J-24 class. The expense pushed many out, me included.

The only series or event that I follow now is the America's Cup.

[benb]

I like to sail but don't race.. so I have limited understanding. (I've done one race as a crew member, coincidentally in a J-24)

I have all the VS coverage stuck on my DVR, but with the Giro it will take a long time to get through it.

With the summaries/highlights I saw BMW/Oracle looked like they were getting schooled at almost every stage of the race, but their starts looked particularly bad.

I think I like dinghy's the best.. last year I sailed Solings a bunch, but I'm not sure it was more fun then dinking around on a Sunfish. Someday I may have a sailboat.. but bicycles sure sucks up the money for it.

[J.Greene]

I
I think I like dinghy's the best.

I do too. I sold My Thistle when the first kid came. Now I have 3 so I don't need to count on my buds when I get another boat someday.

JG

[Onno]

I raced Lasers when I was in college. I remember it as the most exciting sporting event I've ever done, even though I was using a slow old boat. Now I live too far from water to be a regular sailer, alas. I think I'd prefer to watch dinghy racing to AC racing, if it were covered as well. But I suppose there's not nearly as much room for advertizing on the sails, so there's little chance.
Onno

[Karin Kirk]

I tuned into VS. hoping to find the Giro, but I found the sailing instead. I was mesmerized and I watched the whole thing. The coverage was very interesting and it was neat to watch the crew spring into action when needed - very well orchestrated.

I grew up in a sailing and sailboat racing family, but that gene skipped over me and I never caught the bug for that sport. But I do enjoy watching it.

[Len J]

So does anybody here have any insight into the pretty shocking demise of BMW Oracle? Is it the boat or the crew or both? What did they do to the boat after the 3rd race, that seemed actually to make it slower (at least downwind)? Has Luna Rossa been sandbagging in previous rounds? It is amazing that they led around EVERY mark for all 6 races. That is total dominance. And how about the plucky Spanish team? Brilliant race yesterday, made more interesting by finally being able to hear some of onboard discussions of the afterguard on the boat.

Onno

After the 3rd race they changed the rudder to give them more manuverability at the start.......they wanted to get the preferred side......obviously it backfired. In High end sailboat racing, it's near impossible to pass another boat if you start behind, as long as the leader cover all the followers moves......it's only if you make a tactical decision to seperate that you risk getting caught in a wind shift and passed.


Luna Rosa sandbagged everyone in the round robin showing just enough boat speed to make the final four........they have very good boat speed and they also clearly understand the wind variations at valencia much better than Oracle........if you looked at some of the graphics, there was up to a 7 degree difference in wind from the left side of the course to the right and the difference changed from the start of the race to the end. 7 degrees is hugh in sailboat racing if you are on the correct side of it and read it right.

They also didn't make a crew mistake in 6 races.

The next round with Luna Rosa and New zealand (Spanish will be lucky to win another race) will really be interesting.

BMW/Oracle got beat on boat speed, reading the wind and crew performance....besides that they did pretty good.

Len

[Marron]

I was similarly shocked by BMW Oracles meltdown, kind of reminiscent of the Kiwi's Kollapse last time around.

One of the best comments I've heard is that the latest rules revisions to the America's Cup class have had the intended effect and seriously narrowed the performance range of the boats reducing the advantage of the mega-bucks multi-boat programs ala BMW Oracle. If the match ends up hinging on missed shifts or weak starts, that sounds like racing in Lasers (or Thistles) to me. I have to say that the races I've caught on Versus have been some of the best Cup races I've seen: exciting starts, close beats etc. They only lack for more wind to make it really cool.

James Spithill is clearly the man of the moment and I can't wait to see how he fares in the finals. Assuming Emirates is his foe, I think it's at least a coin toss as to who will prevail.

Which raises another question for me; can this possibly be good for Alinghi to face a team that comes off such an intense campaign? Wasn't that always the advantage the Americans had in the NYC era: a brutal selection process that delivered a highly competitive defender? It's as if the process has been turned on it's head.

[Onno]

Spithill did fantastically well in the starts, always seeming to have ****son on the run. Race 5 frankly made ****son look inept. One wonders how a man of so much experience could have melted down so completely; perhaps it's a case of the captain having too much power (captain AND CEO!), so that underlings felt unable to communicate. The Italian and Spanish boats have much more dialogue going on, and have more clearly distributed duties. Or so it seems from the sidelines.

If the Spanish manage to win tomorrow, they'll put enormous pressure on the Kiwis!

Onno

[Graeme]

As a keen racing yachtie my random thoughts on the synergies and differenmces between top end cycling and sailing:
- Weight is key in both sports. Power to weight ratios are critical, only the engines are different. New high tech materials appear on bikes first then at the top end, where the money is less of an issue for the greater amounts needed, they creep into sailboats. eg Al, Ti and CF. All now in common use in the construction of both machines. I have always watched the introduction of new materials in cycling to see what could be applied to race yachts.

- Sailors and cyclists like the techie stuff. We are always fiddling to get better performance tweaking gear.

- I know many of the Kiwi team in Valencia and a good proportion like to get out on the road and go on longer team rides. The Kiwi team has banned them from cycling from now on because of the fear they will get mowed down by the mad Spanish on the roads and put them on the injured list.

- Biggest difference between the bigger race yachts and cycling is the critical element of team work. None involved in cycling other than the big tours. Thats what ultimately killed BMW Oracle. Lots of very egocentric individuals actively working against each other as compared to Luna Rossa who just got on with the job and collectively did it better. BMW was probably a faster boat at the end of the day. Of all the Kiwis sailing on BMW many are are known to not fit in very well with the Team New Zealand ethos, hence they were sailing for Larry Ellison, also known as fairly egocentric. Best example is Chris ****son who hasn't sailed for NZ in the Americas Cup since 1987 notwithstanding his ability. Like minds attact!

-For anyone interested in following the Americas Cup and getting the gossip try having a look at Scuttlebutt or Sailing Anarchy. Both have knowedgeable commentary and forums for posting.

http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/
http://www.sailinganarchy.com

[Smiley]

Onno, I dropped out of USYRA once the America's cup was contested by the Rich NZ beer guy with that 132 ft sloop. Dennis Conner handily beat him with a 40 ft beach cat with our pal Randy Smyth on board. Why did they write the rules around mono hulls and haul around all that Lead . Catamarans Baby would have given this sport some shot in the arm. Slow boats that's what cup boats are limited by water length and sail area.

Finally Larry Elison should concentrate on his company's stock and stop screwing off on sailing :banana: