Personal Character

[cdimattio]

Despite the multiple tests confirming inappropriate levels of testosterone, I put great faith in Floyd Landis because of a belief in personal character. Floyd was the cycling phenomenon raised as a Mennonite in rural Lancaster County. Floyd was raised as a conservative Christian background of voluntary simplicity. His parents were media darlings who possess every stereotype of fine upbringing. Floyd Landis gets a halo just by genes and association. How could one look at a single photo of his parents and not have a different conclusion?

With the developments in the Malibu California on Thursday, my beliefs were shattered.

• First, this benchmark of fine personal character shows up at the hearing wearing all black for the testimony. The childish showmanship was tacky for me.

• I find out about Floyd talking smack in a public internet forum, with threats to reveal negative information about Greg LeMond. He threatens to reveal damaging personal information I have come to learn that was shared with Floyd in confidence.

• I come to understand that Floyd shared intimate details of that same damaging personal information with his business manager and close friend, who used it for further intimidation.

• I also read how Greg LeMond testified under oath about a possible indirect admission of guilt by Floyd.


The rash of negative comments condemning Greg LeMond also caused me to think hard. He was forced to speak of an unfortunate incident in his past due to the indiscretion of Floyd Landis. I was reminded of the long history of exceptional works Greg has done on behalf of both cycling and charity. In contrast, Floyd Landis has become a charity. He continues to seek funds as part of his fight against an unfair worldwide doping prosecution conspiracy.

As bizarre as the arbitration proceedings may have been , as I thought about personal character, Greg LeMond shined yesterday and Floyd became tarnished.

Greg LeMond is a great cyclist who has become a bit of a modern day Don Quixote de la Cycling. Fancy struck, idealistic misunderstood and perhaps a little crazy. Polarizing, but he appears to be a man of solid character.

Rant over.

[fatass]

you thought floyd was innocent because his parents are religious?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=nbZPGyJU1DA

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ynP4NZYcifE

google (http://www.google.com/search?as_q=%22floyd+landis%22+AND+%22kid+rock%22&hl=en&num=100&btnG=Google+Search&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&lr=&as_ft=i&as_filetype=&as_qdr=all&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&as_occt=any&as_dt=i&as_sitesearch=&as_rights=&safe=images)

[chuckred]

I put great faith in Floyd Landis because of a belief in personal character. Floyd was the cycling phenomenon raised as a Mennonite in rural Lancaster County. Floyd was raised as a conservative Christian background of voluntary simplicity. His parents were media darlings who possess every stereotype of fine upbringing. Floyd Landis gets a halo just by genes and association. How could one look at a single photo of his parents and not have a different conclusion?



Since when is conservative Christian background an indication of moral character?

[david]

some interesting thoughts.
i share many of them.

[Tom]

Don't believe the hype.

[david]

Don't believe the hype.

which part is hype?

[Mud]

or CD disc. Just follow the money. It corrupts everything from sports to politics to education, etc etc.

In another life I was a professor at a college. Courses were tough and there were enough students on waiting lists to keep the academic requirements in class high enough to mean something. Competition for state and federal money led to open door admissions. Budgets could not accomodate the amount of remediation required to get students up to the level where they could succeed in college. So it was decided to water the courses down to keep the funding.

I am quite sure that most on the forum have similar stories where money corrupts the essence of what a task, sport, etc should be. Why should cycling be any different. Just look at the sponsors involved and how important it is for them to win.

I am not sure how LeMond enters into all of this since he seems to give mixed vibes at times, but until they have reliable testing that is proof positive it will continue to be a he said/she said scene.

[David Kirk]

Despite the multiple tests confirming inappropriate levels of testosterone, I put great faith in Floyd Landis because of a belief in personal character. Floyd was the cycling phenomenon raised as a Mennonite in rural Lancaster County. Floyd was raised as a conservative Christian background of voluntary simplicity. His parents were media darlings who possess every stereotype of fine upbringing. Floyd Landis gets a halo just by genes and association. How could one look at a single photo of his parents and not have a different conclusion?

With the developments in the Malibu California on Thursday, my beliefs were shattered.

• First, this benchmark of fine personal character shows up at the hearing wearing all black for the testimony. The childish showmanship was tacky for me.

• I find out about Floyd talking smack in a public internet forum, with threats to reveal negative information about Greg LeMond. He threatens to reveal damaging personal information I have come to learn that was shared with Floyd in confidence.

• I come to understand that Floyd shared intimate details of that same damaging personal information with his business manager and close friend, who used it for further intimidation.

• I also read how Greg LeMond testified under oath about a possible indirect admission of guilt by Floyd.


The rash of negative comments condemning Greg LeMond also caused me to think hard. He was forced to speak of an unfortunate incident in his past due to the indiscretion of Floyd Landis. I was reminded of the long history of exceptional works Greg has done on behalf of both cycling and charity. In contrast, Floyd Landis has become a charity. He continues to seek funds as part of his fight against an unfair worldwide doping prosecution conspiracy.

As bizarre as the arbitration proceedings may have been , as I thought about personal character, Greg LeMond shined yesterday and Floyd became tarnished.

Greg LeMond is a great cyclist who has become a bit of a modern day Don Quixote de la Cycling. Fancy struck, idealistic misunderstood and perhaps a little crazy. Polarizing, but he appears to be a man of solid character.

Rant over.

I can only speak for myself but I doubt I'm alone in my feelings. I felt the same way about Floyd at the beginning. The way I see it is that I wanted to believe in him. I wanted to BELIEVE and due to the circumstances Floyd was the perfect person to hang those beliefs on.

What a waste and what bad news for racing. If I were a sponsor or potential sponsor I'd turn and never look back.

This will have fall out for years to come. In a way I think it's good. The budgets will shrink and the motivation to cheat will shrink along with them. With any luck the sport may move back toward humans on bikes.

Maybe we'll even get rid of those damn radios.

Dave

[J.Greene]

From the beggining I thought the mennonite thing was a joke. Floyd has tried to turn away from his upbringing at every chance. He has never tried to convince anyone different either.

This is the first time I have ever mentioned politics on this board but here goes.....Giving Floyd the benefit of the doubt because he is Christian is like supporting George Bush because he is.

JG

[musgravecycles]

Maybe we'll even get rid of those damn radios.
Dave

amen brother!

[Sandy]

Many years ago, I was doing a little business with a young meat business owner in a small town, in either South Carolina or North Carolina (Don't remember which now). Anyway, he owed me a reasonable amount of money and he wouldn't pay, so reluctantly, I went to court. In the jury selection phase of the trial, one of the potential jurors was a clergyman. I wanted him on the jury because I thought that, being a religious man, he would be fair.

I had approximately 60 pieces of evidence, incuding lots of signed invoices, and the defendant had absolutely none. During deliberations, I could hear the jurors literally screaming at each other. The result was a hung jury, with all but 2 of the jurors, overwhelmingly in my favor. After the verdict, the jury foreman asked the judge if he could address me and my mother who also attended the trial. As the trial was over, the judge said yes. The foreman profusely apologized to me and my mother for the verdict. He asked me if I was Jewish. I told him yes. He then said that the reason I did not win the case (the clergyman and a woman voted against my side) was that I was Jewish and I was the big city (Washington D.C.) business owner coming after the young little home town business owner.

The clergyman was white and Christian. I had a black Christian clergyman (pastor of his own church now) work for me for many years, until I retired. He and I did and still do have remarkable trust and respect for each other. It really doesn't matter if a person is white or black or Christian or Jew or whatever. It is what is in the character and heart of that person. Religious background is but one influence on someone and that religious background in itself varies tremendously from one to another. Mr. Landis undoubtedly has had many influences in his life that have formed his character.


Sandy

[musgravecycles]

This is the first time I have ever mentioned politics on this board but here goes.....Giving Floyd the benefit of the doubt because he is Christian is like supporting George Bush because he is.JG


Thanks, I just bleu the water I was drinking all over my monitor...

[rwsaunders]

Just because Floyd races a bike, we're giving him credit for being intelligent. Desperate men seek desperate measures in this case.

[Climb01742]

principles or ethics can come from many places. religious faith or beliefs are one source, but far from the only one.

i wish part of our political discourse wasn't about "values", particularly so closely associated with religious values.

i wish we debated principles/ethics. for me anyway, that language is more open and inclusive. religious values_can_lead to ethical, principled behavior, but so can agnostic concepts of right and wrong.

ethics are desireable. how one gets to ethical behavior, who cares? and one road to get there isn't any "better" than other roads. many roads lead to mecca.

[goldyjackson]

I can only speak for myself but I doubt I'm alone in my feelings. I felt the same way about Floyd at the beginning. The way I see it is that I wanted to believe in him. I wanted to BELIEVE and due to the circumstances Floyd was the perfect person to hang those beliefs on.

What a waste and what bad news for racing. If I were a sponsor or potential sponsor I'd turn and never look back.

This will have fall out for years to come. In a way I think it's good. The budgets will shrink and the motivation to cheat will shrink along with them. With any luck the sport may move back toward humans on bikes.

Maybe we'll even get rid of those damn radios.

Dave


I couldn't agree more. I remember being completely blown away and torn by Tyler H.'s repeated denials on his website. How could you read that and not BELIEVE. I'm being serious. I think it is a product of how screwed up the entire system is. They aren't bad people (though certainly yesterday's all-black and intimidation are very bad actions, or poor choices), but the racers are put in just impossible situations, and they are forced to go it alone when they are "caught."
It's just impossible to succed for them. I want to believe in a thing called "character" but I think circumstances win out in the end. There's an interesting new book about this by the guy who did that experiment with the college students asking them to pretend to be prisoners and guards. Philip Zimbardo. I haven't read the book, but I read a good review. Basically, situations and choices dictate our actions, not some inherent character, according to him. We end up playing roles. And the roles these guys are asked to play are morally compromising. We all share the blame, I think. We support the money system that makes it impossible for them not to do this stuff.

Ugh.

[BURCH]

Desperate men seek desperate measures in this case.


+1

[Len J]

I saw recently that caught my attention....the gist of it was...."Character isn't something that is formed by hard times but rather it is exposed when times are most difficult."

I think that Floyd has an opportunity now to expose his character. This thing is spinning out of control and probably going places he never intended (I'm assuming that he didn't instruct his manager to make those calls).....if he had true character, he might put an end to it all......

Imagine if he held a press confrence and came completely clean and asked forgiveness.

Just dreamin'

Len

[J.Greene]

Just because Floyd races a bike, we're giving him credit for being intelligent. Desperate men seek desperate measures in this case.

And this is the lesson to learn. These guys are bike racers, they didn't just graduate with a graduate degree in ethics. They are super motivated, type A personalities to the extreme. In some cases they have been told from the beggining they were going to be the greatest. I'm not sure why we hold them to a higher standard. Charles Barkely was right, these guys aren't made to be role models.

JG

[david]

Giving Floyd the benefit of the doubt because he is Christian...

JG

i saw the initial post in a broader context. i saw the initial post as a commentary on how hard it is these days to know what to believe in.
my takeaway, whether intended or not, was that floyd got some benefit of the doubt due to his religious upbringing, which just so happens to be mennonite. (i guess that's a form of christianty - i don't know much about these things.)

i, for one, am not a "religious" person. but i do think one of the principles of religion - most religions? - is some sense morality. or at least a sense of right and wrong. the fact that he walked from the mennonite religion doesn't necessarily mean that he walked from whatever moral foundations he developed during his youth.

for me, the benefit of the doubt that i extended to floyd was based on a desire to believe in the possibility of him, or some other guy, doing something as amazing and heroic as floyd did on stage 17.

when the reports of doping first came in, i found myself not wanting to believe they were true. i found myself, therefore, wanting to believe in floyd. i found myself looking for things to help me believe in floyd. i found myself looking to his religious background as a sign - not proof - but an indication of a sound moral upbringing.

flawed thinking? maybe. as sandy pointed out, there are exceptions.

the takeaway, for me at least, is that everything has to be judged on a case by case basis.

wait a minute, haven't i heard that before?

[Tom]

which part is hype?

Any of it and all of it.

[fatass]

...

Imagine if he held a press confrence and came completely clean and asked forgiveness.

...

like that french chap Virenque, err... how did that work with him?

[J.Greene]

i saw the initial post in a broader context. i saw the initial post as a commentary on how hard it is these days to know what to believe in.
the takeaway, for me at least, is that everything has to be judged on a case by case basis.

wait a minute, haven't i heard that before?

That is cool with me. I was just reffering to that in every interview I have read with Floyd he ALWAYS says (paraphase) he loves his parents but he does not believe what they do, and he got out of that life as soon as he was old enough. He viewed the bicycle as a way out. In that context I never thought his christian upbringing was a factor in believing him.

I like Floyd. I thought he won that day last summer with guts and a little luck. To win big you need to take risks and Floyd that day went out to win the race. But I feel let down like we all do.

JG

[Buzz]

I can only speak for myself but I doubt I'm alone in my feelings. I felt the same way about Floyd at the beginning. The way I see it is that I wanted to believe in him. I wanted to BELIEVE and due to the circumstances Floyd was the perfect person to hang those beliefs on.

What a waste and what bad news for racing. If I were a sponsor or potential sponsor I'd turn and never look back.

This will have fall out for years to come. In a way I think it's good. The budgets will shrink and the motivation to cheat will shrink along with them. With any luck the sport may move back toward humans on bikes.

Maybe we'll even get rid of those damn radios.

Dave


+2

[jspa]

My dad was a juror on a pretty serious criminal case once. The jury had to acquit the defendant even though they were all pretty sure that he had done the crime. The problem was that the prosecution's witnesses were all such a bunch of liars and criminals that it was impossible to remove all doubt.

I just read the velonews account, and maybe Landis is guilty, but is anyone really going to take Lemond's word for it? The dude is crackers. The whole story about how he revealled his 'secret' to Landis is outrageous. From what I gather they didn't really know each other. Who reveals that kind of information to someone you don't REALLY know? Unless, of course, you want it to become public. He's almost as nuts as the guy who claimed he killed JonBenet.

Oh, and by the way, anyone who thinks that a person's religious background is a basis for trusting them, just needs to look at the Catholic church. Some of the best people I know are atheists.

[bostondrunk]

I always believed that Landis was guilty. Even if he didn't dope at the TDF, its a safe bet he has at other times.
That said, even if LeMond (who is my all time fav. cyclist) is a bit weird for revealing that type of info to Landis......it is pretty sad that Landis's guy called Lemond on the phone to threaten him about it. What an idiotic move!!! I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall for the conversations that followed between Landis and him...

[Karin Kirk]

like that french chap Virenque, err... how did that work with him?

Well, obviously it went better for Virenque than it is for Landis!
Virenque, no matter what you may think of him, is another example that it's better to take your lumps, get it overwith and then return to racing. He won the polka-dot jersey twice after the "Festina affair." I'd say that's considerably better than Landis' present situation.

[jimcav]

believe in the possibility of him, or some other guy, doing something as amazing and heroic as floyd did on stage 17.

well, if he did dope, exogenous testosterone at that low level would not have had any quick acting effect to make the stage 17 possible, and so unless it was present far ealier in the race it did nothing to diminish the effort

having done some work in a lab where we were looking at nutrition supplements for Navy Seals, it is scary what stuff you can detect in off the shelf-GNC-type stuff. but detecting it does not mean it will have any harmful health effect, nor does it mean it would have any performance effect. To be meaningful, a level of detection ought to be at a range where there is biologic and performance effects.

seeing people get angry, emotional, and stupid is not pleasant, but it doesn't really speak to any of the science.
Having run PCR, ELISA, etc for my master's thesis, it is pretty easy to manipulate tests if you want to--that is why blinding the technicians and not letting them know the past result s was pos or neg is inportant in the process--there is always a motivation to validate results.

on the science presented so far, i think he can't be found to have doped, but that may change. i think he probably did, but not with testosterone.


jim

[Frog Hair]

And this is the lesson to learn. These guys are bike racers, they didn't just graduate with a graduate degree in ethics. They are super motivated, type A personalities to the extreme. In some cases they have been told from the beggining they were going to be the greatest. I'm not sure why we hold them to a higher standard. Charles Barkely was right, these guys aren't made to be role models.

JG


+1

[m_moses]

Despite the multiple tests confirming inappropriate levels of testosterone, I put great faith in Floyd Landis because of a belief in personal character. Floyd was the cycling phenomenon raised as a Mennonite in rural Lancaster County. Floyd was raised as a conservative Christian background of voluntary simplicity. His parents were media darlings who possess every stereotype of fine upbringing. Floyd Landis gets a halo just by genes and association. How could one look at a single photo of his parents and not have a different conclusion?


I felt the same way. The Christian upbringing was just one datapoint in an overall impression of the guy.

But after the last few days, we have a few more datapoints to consider.

[shaq-d]

I just read the velonews account, and maybe Landis is guilty, but is anyone really going to take Lemond's word for it? The dude is crackers. The whole story about how he revealled his 'secret' to Landis is outrageous. From what I gather they didn't really know each other. Who reveals that kind of information to someone you don't REALLY know? Unless, of course, you want it to become public. He's almost as nuts as the guy who claimed he killed JonBenet.


i disagree with this big time. landis and lemond definitely had a relationship. how close? well, you tell me: landis dressed up all in black for lemond's showing. you don't do that for someone u could care less about. it signifies the death of...a friendship.

sd

(a google of "lemond landis" shows this as the 2nd hit: http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=060724191235.mmwevu5p&show_article=1 "He was one of my favourites before the race. He's clean and what's more, he's a great guy," he added. -- lemond)

[swoop]

good people do bad things too. context is everything. and doing bad things doesn't mean one has bad character. i wish the world were that simple a place.

[fiamme red]

good people do bad things too. context is everything. and doing bad things doesn't mean one has bad character. i wish the world were that simple a place.It is that simple. Every cyclist, on every team, now has a decision to make. Either you are with us, or you are with the dopers.

[benb]

Landis win last summer was probably more exciting then anything Lance did for quite a while. (The only Lance moment I remember going nuts over was the one where he duked it out with Pantani @ Ventoux.)

But it was sooo easy to believe he was doping when he was riding with such a serious injury.. all of us know how much power even a little injury can Rob.. and here's Floyd winning the TdF with a crumbling hip bone?

I haven't met him but nothing I ever saw made me think he had a ton of character.. probably lots of fun to be around but he (and Zabriskie) always come off as a bunch of Frat boys willing to do anything and very full of the belief that anything goes unless you don't get caught.

[tch]

..... Religious background is but one influence on someone and that religious background in itself varies tremendously from one to another. Mr. Landis undoubtedly has had many influences in his life that have formed his character.
Sandy
Great understanding of human dynamics.

[swoop]

It is that simple. Every cyclist, on every team, now has a decision to make. Either you are with us, or you are with the dopers.

we call that black and white thinking. not to rationalize anything.. but you have to look at the big picture. sporting life cant and won't function any differently than the rest of life.. it doesn't lead us, it reflects us back to ourselves.
in this there is only our own image.. and sport isn't isolated frorm the way things work.. it is simpy a condensed artificial dramatized version.

[fiamme red]

we call that black and white thinking. not to rationalize anything.. but you have to look at the big picture. sporting life cant and won't function any differently than the rest of life.. it doesn't lead us, it reflects us back to ourselves.
in this there is only our own image.. and sport isn't isolated frorm the way things work.. it is simpy a condensed artificial dramatized version.If the war on terrorism is a black-and-white affair (as our President tells us), why not the war on doping also?

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/09/20010920-8.html

"We will starve dopers of funding, turn them one against another, drive them from place to place, until there is no refuge or no rest. And we will pursue teams that provide aid or safe haven to dopers. Every cyclist, on every team, now has a decision to make. Either you are with us, or you are with the dopers. (Applause.)"

[Avispa]

Maybe we'll even get rid of those damn radios.
Dave

Double that! ;)

[csm]

despite the stupid antics, I still am not convinced that he is guilty. I don't see why he would have, how he escaped detection through all the other tests, etc.
that being said; this entire episode has driven me, both as a fan and cyclist, away from caring about racing. I think ginger says it best: "I ride my bike to ride my bike."
as I watch cyclism sundays, I wonder who is the better doper, rather than who is the hero of the day.