Fully Integrated Bar & Stem, or not?

[sheepdog84]

Hi All,

I'm speccing out my next go fast Road bike build, where I have the opportunity to go with a fully integrated Enve Bar / Stem, OR a more traditional Handlebar + Stem setup.

Since I'm a home mechanic, I've marked a few key differences that could make (or break) the decision to go fully integrated here:

Pros:

Fully integrated Looks quite good (imo)
This is going to be my best/top of the line bike - Fully integrated/futuristic look.
I don't care much about this, but it's theoretically more aero.
The fit is custom, so the bars will be in the exact right spot - Shouldn't need to adjust or experiment with stem length / bar width.


Cons:

Difficulty of install (internal cable routing)
Difficulty of travel - Most boxes are not made to accomidate an integrated front end
Replacing the fully integrated bar is much more expensive + time consuming.
Currently, a 6-8 month wait time from Enve for the fully integrated setup.


I've never done the fully integrated thing, so I'm just looking for feedback from people who've gone down this route, and then trying to decide for myself.

Any thoughts?

TIA!!

[CampagnoloCOOL]

Make sure you have established all the measurement and fit parameters ...before you go integrated as well

Width , Reach , Drop , length , Angle / Rise ..ETC ..

Your head tube angle will effect all of these as well ..

[harblhat]

Two more considerations: fit changes over time and bar angle.

I've improved my core strength over the years and have been able to get lower and a bit longer, and my fit has evolved over that time. All of my variables have changed: stem length, angle, and bar width. If my fit changes enough to a point where the integrated bar position is no longer comfortable or optimal, it's expensive and time consuming to change.

I'm also very neurotic about handlebar angle, especially for the drops. Integrated bars don't let me adjust that at all unless there are angled shims, but that would change the fit as well.

[rothwem]

The main thing keeping me from getting one is cost. I know what my bar/stem dimensions are and I rarely switch up my fit. The lightness and stiffness are definitely attractive, its rare that a bike component gets lighter AND stiffer.

With that said, the travel stuff does sound annoying if that's something you do a lot. I don't fly very often and I've only flown with a bike once and it was a giant pain in the dick, so I decided to never do it again. People that can afford integrated bar/stems probably travel more though, so maybe its a bigger deal for you.

For a brand new bike build, I think the route I would go is getting a separate, cheaper aluminum bar/stem combo, ride it for a while and then once you've figured out the fit, grab an integrated setup.

[pdmtong]

What is your plan to mount wahoo/garmin?

[zmalwo]

I don't get how most boxes aren't accommodating fully integrated bar stem. don't you just have to take it off at the steerer tube and fold it down along the fork?

Also I wouldn't get Enve if I were you, there are much better choices out there than anything from that con artist company.

[Pinned]

What is your plan to mount wahoo/garmin?

Enve's integrated bar has provision for a K-Edge mount.

If it's a carbon bike where the integrated look is proportional I'd go for it. Looks awesome. You'll want a nice Scicon case for travel, but you'd want that anyways. Not faffing with breaking down a bike while traveling, integrated bars or not, is worth it.

I would mention that you'll want to be scrupulous with inspection and maintenance when it comes to brake hoses on these internally routed frames. Worth a seasonal check to make sure the cables aren't being worn down inside the frame. Most frames will allow enough cable slack inside them to allow the handlebar to be removed for a visual check.

[huck*this]

If going electronic shifting full integrated should work with out a headache. If going mech... shifting may be more difficult to dial in.

[batman1425]

I don't get how most boxes aren't accommodating fully integrated bar stem. don't you just have to take it off at the steerer tube and fold it down along the fork?

It depends on how tight the routing is. Most of the truly completely internal systems have basically no allowance for slack, to the point that there isn't even enough for the stem to to clear the top of the steerer without disconnecting at least the front brake hose. It looks slick and clean when it is set up, but it is a complete PITA to do what were once "simple" jobs.

[batman1425]

I would mention that you'll want to be scrupulous with inspection and maintenance when it comes to brake hoses on these internally routed frames. Worth a seasonal check to make sure the cables aren't being worn down inside the frame. Most frames will allow enough cable slack inside them to allow the handlebar to be removed for a visual check.

I always found it interesting(?) that the systems that require regular checking are also the ones that are the most difficult to check. A visual steerer inspection on an Enve, Vision (and a bunch of other proprietary) integrated setups require cutting hoses. The little slack also means said visual inspection is at a minimum $70-100 in parts if you DIY and probably over $200 if paying a shop as part of your yearly "tune". Big price to pay for the "clean look" IMO.

[prototoast]

Personally, I think these fully integrated aero setups look bad when paired with the round head tube of a metal bike.

For example:
https://moots.com/bike/vamoots-crd/

On the other hand, I think it looks pretty good with a carbon frame that's shaped to blend in better, such as:
https://www.specialized.com/us/en/tarmac-sl7-expert/p/199467

So depending on the bike you're getting, I think a lot of the pros you listed disappear with a round head tube, but if it's an aero frame, go all in.

[Dave]

I've got two Yoeleo R12 bikes with integrated bars and full internal hose routing. I have enough slack in the brake hoses to allow bar removal. I've used the same 10cm saddle to bar drop for many years and don't expect that to change.

The -7 stem angle can't be changed, but knowing the stack height, I planned the setup and only needed the 10mm headset top cover and a 10mm top spacer with a special shape that covers the hole where the hoses come through the bars. The spacers are all split and interlocking, so they can be removed without removing the bars. I have 3,5,and 10mm spacers left over. The head tube is 57mm in diameter.

When I ride in the drops my hands are in the hooks so my stubby fingers can reach the brake levers. The angle of the bars hasn't been an issue. I have the same reach and drop as the Easton EC-90 bars I've used for years. The bars have two threaded holes underneath, for a computer mount and came with a universal mounting bracket. The bars cost $215 if bought separately.

All this said, setting up my 2017 Cinelli Superstar frame for hydraulic disc was much easier. The frame has mostly internal routing for the rear brake, with a guide tube built into the frame. Just insert the hose into the side of the down tube and it comes out the chain stay. The builder can decide how much excess hose to leave. Any bar and stem can be used.

https://forums.thepaceline.net/picture.php?albumid=93&pictureid=1129

[Pinned]

I always found it interesting(?) that the systems that require regular checking are also the ones that are the most difficult to check. A visual steerer inspection on an Enve, Vision (and a bunch of other proprietary) integrated setups require cutting hoses. The little slack also means said visual inspection is at a minimum $70-100 in parts if you DIY and probably over $200 if paying a shop as part of your yearly "tune". Big price to pay for the "clean look" IMO.

Even the most poorly setup (aka: too tight, not enough slack) internally routed bikes can accommodate removal of the stem/handlebar to check. If your mechanic sets things up with absolutely no slack you'll still have a minimum of 8-9cm of slack by unbolting brake calipers and sliding the hose up the fork / frame.

It's not a lot of room to work with, but it is enough to remove the stem and the compression setup to give the steerer and cables a visual inspection. On my personal bike I can remove the stem/bar without needing to unbolt the calipers - may not be the case for all configurations though.

Some of the designs and setups aren't great - some are better. Giant's new Propel, while not my favorite looking, has a stem with a C shaped cavity underneath it that allows for a pretty workable setup.

[batman1425]

Even the most poorly setup (aka: too tight, not enough slack) internally routed bikes can accommodate removal of the stem/handlebar to check. If your mechanic sets things up with absolutely no slack you'll still have a minimum of 8-9cm of slack by unbolting brake calipers and sliding the hose up the fork / frame.

You might get some slack by unbolting the caliper but will still have the rear hose to contend with and if the rider has any spacers on top - forget it. You’ll also be pulling these through the race as you lift it up. A lot of the ones I’ve seen are sharp enough that doing so risks damaging a a wire, or hose. If (and that’s a big if) you can get the stem and bar off, you still cannot drop the fork without cutting the hose. A proper visual inspection requires that, not just pulling the race and shining a flashlight down the gap.


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[Kyle h]

This sounds like a big red herring. How often are you disassembling bikes and inspecting forks? How often have you found damage leading to a fork replacement? Also wouldn’t a small camera like a bore camera easily remedy this? If I can find a way to fit a camera into an engine cylinder I find it hard to believe I couldn’t find a way to use a camera to do the same on a bike…

[batman1425]

This sounds like a big red herring. How often are you disassembling bikes and inspecting forks? How often have you found damage leading to a fork replacement? Also wouldn’t a small camera like a bore camera easily remedy this? If I can find a way to fit a camera into an engine cylinder I find it hard to believe I couldn’t find a way to use a camera to do the same on a bike…

In the past, fork steers haven't had things resting against them inside the headtube. This is a new problem with integrated cabling. Given how fast a cable can saw through the carbon on the external side of a HT just from friction, there's a less than zero chance this could also be happening to the steerer as a hose or cable running past rubs on it. The problem is compounded by it being hidden wear. Will it be a problem for person X. Perhaps, perhaps not, but it's in the riders best interest to check on some kind of schedule.

This isn't a totally unknown problem. James Huang has mentioned on Nerd Alert a few times that he noticed this issue on a frame in for review. When he told the manuf - they added a metal sleeve around the steerer on the production version of the bike.

A borescope isn't an unreasonable idea though the clearances are pretty tight. My personal frame, the borescope I have wouldn't fit between the race and the steerer, though that doesn't mean there isn't a suitable alternative out there that would.

[Dave]

I've never removed a fork for an inspection, but I just started using full internal routed frames. If worn hoses are thought to be such a risk, then plan on cutting the hoses. My frames have no internal hose guides, so I'm confident that there's enough length for at least one new hose end to be installed, maybe two. I split my 5000 miles per year between two bikes, so I might go 4 years before any such inspection. Unless unusual wear was found, I'd probably never do it again.

The front brake hose goes directly from the stem and into the side of the steering tube. I don't see much chance of any rubbing.