Joe Papp and testosterone

[J.Greene]

Velonews is reporting that former pro cyclist Joe Papp will be a witness for usada, describing how and why he and other cyclist have used testosterone. This might be the most interesting testimony of the week. Joe is a seasoned journeyman who has raced as a pro for over a decade. I'm not aware of him ever having admitted to using banned substances before.

JG

[benb]

But what the heck does Cyclist X using Test have to do with a case to prove Cyclist Y used Test?

Unless he was shooting up with Landis I don't see how it has anything to do with the case.

[J.Greene]

But what the heck does Cyclist X using Test have to do with a case to prove Cyclist Y used Test?

Unless he was shooting up with Landis I don't see how it has anything to do with the case.

Probably because......Part of the Landis argument is that testoesterone is not a performance enhancer that one would use for recovery. I have seen that sentiment many places including here. Landis in his very public case has argued that "why would he be so dumb to use something he knew he'd get caught for that doesn't even work". That's my guess about the role Papp has been hired to play.

One side to this story is that Papp's wife is a Cuban cyclist who had recently been detained in cuba and is not allowed to leave. Papp has been lobbying diplomatic channels heavily for her relaese. I'm not sure where that is at the moment.

JG

[benb]

Oh yah.. OK.. ISTR Landis saying that now, and I agree, it sounds like USADA/WADA will easily prove that Testosterone is a beneficial PED that is being abused.

I've read too many accounts of people saying it works wonderfully for recovery, etc..

But it all seems orthogonal to the case.. Testosterone is on the banned list, whether or not it helps the athlete or not they shouldn't be taking it. USADA/WADA shouldn't have to prove it's efficacy, just that Landis took it. Cocaine and Marijuana are on the list too.. if Lands was being hauled into court over failing a MJ test no one would be discussing whether or not MJ was a PED, it's just banned period.

[J.Greene]

This my opinion....this is now partly a chess match. Each side is having to anticipate all the moves of the oppenent.

wrt Joe Papp, his testimony might be interesting. He may show us another look into the practices that up until now we have ingnored or disbelieved.

JG

Oh yah.. OK.. ISTR Landis saying that now, and I agree, it sounds like USADA/WADA will easily prove that Testosterone is a beneficial PED that is being abused.

I've read too many accounts of people saying it works wonderfully for recovery, etc..

But it all seems orthogonal to the case.. Testosterone is on the banned list, whether or not it helps the athlete or not they shouldn't be taking it. USADA/WADA shouldn't have to prove it's efficacy, just that Landis took it.

[rwsaunders]

If his testimony proves to be damaging, will this be known as the "Papp Smear"?

[wasfast]

Oh yah.. OK.. ISTR Landis saying that now, and I agree, it sounds like USADA/WADA will easily prove that Testosterone is a beneficial PED that is being abused.

I've read too many accounts of people saying it works wonderfully for recovery, etc..

But it all seems orthogonal to the case.. Testosterone is on the banned list, whether or not it helps the athlete or not they shouldn't be taking it. USADA/WADA shouldn't have to prove it's efficacy, just that Landis took it. Cocaine and Marijuana are on the list too.. if Lands was being hauled into court over failing a MJ test no one would be discussing whether or not MJ was a PED, it's just banned period.

Yes, it's on the banned list but their arguement is that he wouldn't have teken it anyway because it's not believed to be fast acting. They also state that Landis knew he'd be tested, why would he have taken testostrone?

[harlond]

Probably because......Part of the Landis argument is that testoesterone is not a performance enhancer that one would use for recovery. I have seen that sentiment many places including here. Landis in his very public case has argued that "why would he be so dumb to use something he knew he'd get caught for that doesn't even work". That's my guess about the role Papp has been hired to play.

One side to this story is that Papp's wife is a Cuban cyclist who had recently been detained in cuba and is not allowed to leave. Papp has been lobbying diplomatic channels heavily for her relaese. I'm not sure where that is at the moment.

JGSo by publicly admitting to being a doper, he persuades the Cuban authorities to release his wife? I'm not understanding the connection. And like benb I don't see why the arbitrators would give any credence to Papp's anecdotal evidence (better, the Papp smear) when presumably USADA has access to any number of scientists who could explain how testosterone aids recovery, if that is the point.

Whatever USADA's purpose in putting Papp on the stand, what does he gain from testifying?

[slowgoing]

Whatever USADA's purpose in putting Papp on the stand, what does he gain from testifying?

Maybe nothing. But that makes him even more effective as an unbiased witness.

I agree that this is not very probabtive, but should be interesting nevertheless.

[J.Greene]

So by publicly admitting to being a doper, he persuades the Cuban authorities to release his wife? I'm not understanding the connection. And like benb I don't see why the arbitrators would give any credence to Papp's anecdotal evidence (better, the Papp smear) when presumably USADA has access to any number of scientists who could explain how testosterone aids recovery, if that is the point.

Whatever USADA's purpose in putting Papp on the stand, what does he gain from testifying?

It's hard to say what the arbitrators will give credence to. Keep in mind we are just speculating on what he'll say. Maybe he's knows something more specific than we are guessing. Papp has been around a long time and knows the score. USADA is undefeated on these cases, they have a purpose for what they do, even if that purpose is suspect.

I didn't say there was a connection between doping and his wife. Any story about Papp will include what he is going through with his wife, and I feel for the guy because of it.

JG

[Bill Bove]

If his testimony proves to be damaging, will this be known as the "Papp Smear"?
:banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :crap:

[goonster]

Somebody help me understand this . . .

In his testimony, Papp says he tested positive for testosterone on May 7th '06 at the Tour of Turkey, and also talks about how he was shunned by his team mate "brothers" on the Italian Whistle squad.

But:

Papp is a long-time diarist on cyclingnews.com, and there are multiple entries from that season. There's a report from the Tour of Turkey, and no word of a positive test. There's a long entry from July, where he gets injured in a Gran Fondo, and his teammates say their end-of-season goodbyes in the hospital. Never a mention of a positive dope test, an investigation or a sanction.

Joe Papp's Diaries (http://www.cyclingnews.com/riders/2006/diaries/papp/?id=default)

Does that make any sense? Would somebody sit on a rider's positive test until after the season, and continue to let them race in the meantime?

[J.Greene]

Somebody help me understand this . . .


Does that make any sense? Would somebody sit on a rider's positive test until after the season, and continue to let them race in the meantime?

I guess that's what happens when the rider in question is small. Nobody leaks the info.

JG

[Walter]

"what does he gain from testifying?"....."But that makes him even more effective as an unbiased witness."

An interesting part of his testimony is that it came out that he debriefed or had meeting at the U.S. Attorneys Office before his testimony. Was he cooperating in a wider or in a different investigation? Is he trying to curry favor with govt officials by testifying everywhere and anywhere? Landis' lawyers tried to uncover the link and what really happened, but apparently USADA objected and the Panel blocked it.

The proper development of this could have explained a lot about his motives and showed that he is far from unbiased.

[J.Greene]

He was willing to throw his old team under the bus with approval of his attorney, so I assume he is willing to expose otheres also.

JG

[I
An interesting part of his testimony is that it came out that he debriefed or had meeting at the U.S. Attorneys Office before his testimony. Was he cooperating in a wider or in a different investigation? Is he trying to curry favor with govt officials by testifying everywhere and anywhere?

[sailorboy]

1) That he was trying to help them expose a bigger fish to get more leniency in his suspension, although this appeared to have back-fired when the USADA lawyers said they couldn't help protect him from the more serious charges of bringing large quantities of doping products in from south america for his whole team. Something he admitted to in the course of the hearings.

2) This was just another way for a nobody pro whose career is over, doping or not, with an ego rivaling that of Lance himself to get himself a little more time in the spotlight. I say this based on lots of first-hand accounts from riders I know that rode with/against him in Pittsburgh. There is no love lost there I can assure you.

[J.Greene]

2) This was just another way for a nobody pro whose career is over, doping or not, with an ego rivaling that of Lance himself to get himself a little more time in the spotlight. I say this based on lots of first-hand accounts from riders I know that rode with/against him in Pittsburgh. There is no love lost there I can assure you.

I heard something like this the other day. His fellow pros did not like him very much. Maybe that's one of the reasons he did not race on the better domestic teams.

But does all this affect his credibility with an arbitration panel?

JG

[sailorboy]

That's a thought, but I'm not sure the lawyers (non-cyclists?) on the arbitration panel would be aware of the subtleties in Joe's level of a-hole-ness in the world of domestic cycling. He burned a lot of bridges in the racing scene I hear, but who knows if those folks would be aware of it.

[fiamme red]

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10048/1036489-100.stm

[Hawker]

So while he is testifying about drugs at the Landis trial, he is also selling them.

Amazing.

[sailorboy]

Wow, so he's an even bigger schmuck than he let on in that 'tell-all' article that was published in outside magazine a ways back...he just claimed to be the flawed competitor who was caught up in the whole institutional pressure to use the products when in truth he was a major part of the institution.

there's probably a nice spot reserved in hell for you Joe.

[RPS]

One side to this story is that Papp's wife is a Cuban cyclist who had recently been detained in cuba and is not allowed to leave. Papp has been lobbying diplomatic channels heavily for her relaese. I'm not sure where that is at the moment.

JG
Wikipedia makes it sound like she is being detained in Cuba for political reasons which probably have little or nothing to do with drugs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuliet_Rodr%C3%ADguez_Jim%C3%A9nez

Yuliet "Rodríguez Jiménez is the wife of US professional cyclist Joseph M. Papp; the two were married in Havana, Cuba on October 8, 2004[1]. In 2006, Rodríguez defected from Cuba while in Russia in an attempt to reunite with her husband who was in Italy[2][3]. After a global flight that included weeks spent in hiding and the use of an assumed identity, Rodríguez was kidnapped in Caracas, Venezuela by Cuban security agents operating with approval from the Chavez regime, held incommunicado for 20 days and finally forcibly repatriated to Cuba[4]. Only the intervention of the US State Department at her husband's behest saved Rodríguez from torture and imprisonment[5]."

[toaster]

Will we ever know what dope is doing for these cyclists?

http://www.dailypeloton.com/displayarticle.asp?pk=11429

[rwsaunders]

How could he get married in Cuba, if US citizens can't travel there?