used BMW 3 series research

[eddief]

have driven four or five examples of sedans with 5 speed manual transmission all in the 2000-2004 years. i do love the experience in the saddle. but then i do research on the net and the e46 feedback is pretty horrendous. seems for the wonderful driving experience you trade your first born kid for:

sunroof motors
front bushings
window regulators up the yinyang
sunroof shades
cooling system issues at 30-40k miles
etc...

spoke to someone yesterday who had to replace his auto trans at 40k.

either why can't bmw nail down the quality or where is the similar driving experience from the asian community?

[Doc Hollywood]

I have a 92 BMW Rag Top (325i) 5-spd. Not too familiar with the 3-series sedans per se, but I have not had a significant quality issue in my Bimmer since I bought it in 95. It has 64K miles on it, but I just replaced the original canvas top last year. The leather seats are original.

I think Bimmers have good to excellent quality. I know several folks that have them, and I haven't heard any horror stories.

Doc

[jhcakilmer]

Well, BMW make great cars, but I would not consider them to be low maintence. I have a 95 525i, with 200k+ miles on it. It still drives great, but that's not without a considerable amount of TLC from the previous owner.

Obviously they're great cars, or it wouldn't have been C&D favorite for the past 16 years. My brother has a Lexus IS, and he loves it. It always looses to the side-by-side comparision test, but only by slim margins to the 3 series. But Lexus has the best long-term reliability of any car company, period, which I think counts for a lot, unless you have the extra money laying around, to burn.

I really like everything about BMW, except the long term (4-6 years) reliability. Why can't a car company steeped in so much automotive heritage build a car, that rivals their Japanese reliability standards.

Come on....what have they not had enough R/D time, over the past 7+ decades?

[eddief]

the 2000 323i i am most interested in due to one anal private party owner has had 4 clutches in 70k miles. granted all of those were done under warranty prior to the 48k expiration, but that would suggest it took 4 chances to get it right. the car is in primo cosmetic condition, but i'm still afraid i'm getting a wolf in sheep's clothing.

and this is in it's simplest format: no premium or sports package, not even cruise control. just leatherette seats, a moonroof and fold down rear seats to enable the loading of the bike.

[Doc Hollywood]

I have a 95 525i, with 200k+ miles on it. It still drives great, but that's not without a considerable amount of TLC from the previous owner.

Not meant to be negative, but how many car companies can routinely claim that they have cars still on the road that have 200+ K miles without some/considerable TLC?

I have a Toyota truck, that is less than 6 years old and a piece of junk. It's starting to rust, the paint is easily scratched/chipped, and the water pump and timing chain needed to be replaced at 40K miles. On the other hand, my Bimmer has less miles, but is 9 years older, and has had no issues since I bought it.

I probably won't buy a Toyota again, because of my experience. Heck, my 1991 Jeep faired a ton better than my current Toyota. When I sold it it had 145K mileson it and basically only needed brakes and tires over its life.

Doc

[Doc Hollywood]

Recommendation:

Forget the 323i. Look for a 328 or a 330. You can get them for your price in prime condition. The 323 has fewer horses than a 328 or 330. If you are going to get 3-series, get a "real" one. The 318 and 323 are the low end of the series and for folks that want to say they have a BMW, but the performance isn't quite there. Even a older 325 is better than a 318 or 323.

Unless the 323 that you're looking at is super inexpensive, there are better cars for the same money or slightly more.

My two cents.

Doc

[55/Rad]

I have an '89 325i - E30 series. It had 70K miles on it when I bought it in 1999 for $5K. I put a new suspension, brakes, wheels and some performance bolt-ons onto it to qualify it for Dinan status. I raced it around the canyons of the NW for about a year when I hit some sand coming around a hairpin and slid into a barrier. Because of the age and damage, the insurance company wanted to total it, not taking into account the work I had done. I petitioned to get them to fix the body work - cosmetic only - and set out on the road again.

I have not had a single problem since and the car has over 170K miles on it. It's still running strong and fast, though I don't push it very often any more.

I love this car.

55/Rad

[slowgoing]

If it is in your budget, get one made a few years after the model was changed so they had a chance to work out the major kinks. I recall reading about quite a few nits in the initial rollout that they changed over the years with this particular model, with the later models scoring quite high in overall reliability. I bought a 2005 coupe and have had no problems at all.

[ThasFACE]

It's my understanding that the e36 was a little better with all of that stuff. My experience, though, has only been with my e36 M3... which, I have to say, has been pretty reliable. Cooling system issues come up, but I think that they do so only at predictable intervals. As with most cars, preventative maintenance will save you a ton of trouble.

Generally I don't think that bmw 3's are so much less reliable (including all repairs) than other cars; they definitely are more expensive to repair, though. I just did my clutch and it was spendy. Interestingly, I replaced it because my throwout bearing was going, not because the clutch was slipping or anything like that... and this was on a 158k-mile clutch that I have driven _hard_...

But, even if bmw's are less reliable and more expensive, it's my opinion that that is the premium for a much more satisfying drive.

[forgive me if my post makes no sense... law exams... killing me]

[jhcakilmer]

Toyota/Lexus builds the most reliable cars on the planet, so I don't know what type of experience your having, nor what you do to your cars, but maybe you have a lemon.

I would not say "reliability" is one of Toyotas issues!

I think BMW makes great cars, but if you go to any BMW forum, I don't think anyone would say there cars are low maintence. Plus, when something does go on a bimmer, can you say "rapage"!!! My 525 is reasonable to fix, but only because it's over a decade old (lots of aftermarket, or used parts avaliable), and I do most of the labor myself.

After saying that, I would point out that, in general, I imagine BMW owners drive there cars harder then their Toyota counterparts......so that might contribute to the issues. For example, when someone has to replace a clutch 4x within 70k miles....it's definitely an opporator issue!



Not meant to be negative, but how many car companies can routinely claim that they have cars still on the road that have 200+ K miles without some/considerable TLC?

I have a Toyota truck, that is less than 6 years old and a piece of junk. It's starting to rust, the paint is easily scratched/chipped, and the water pump and timing chain needed to be replaced at 40K miles. On the other hand, my Bimmer has less miles, but is 9 years older, and has had no issues since I bought it.

I probably won't buy a Toyota again, because of my experience. Heck, my 1991 Jeep faired a ton better than my current Toyota. When I sold it it had 145K mileson it and basically only needed brakes and tires over its life.

Doc

[abqhudson]

We owned a 2002 325i which we bought new - drove it for 62K miles (The only problem in 62K miles was a faulty radio switch - the radio was replaced) and it was still perfectly great - we sold it so I could get a manual. Bought a new car with a manual (non-BMW). Bad mistake.

No, they are not Lexus or Toyota - and - no, they don't drive like a Lexus or Toyota either. The driving experience more than makes up for any maintenance issues for us.

Sold the new car with 7000 miles on it and just bought a 2005 325ci - our 4th e46. My recommendation, buy a 325 or 328 for the smoother engine. I also note that we haven't had any issues with our 2004 530i either.

YMMV.

Jim

[pjm]

Recommendation:

Forget the 323i. Look for a 328 or a 330. You can get them for your price in prime condition. The 323 has fewer horses than a 328 or 330. If you are going to get 3-series, get a "real" one. The 318 and 323 are the low end of the series and for folks that want to say they have a BMW, but the performance isn't quite there. Even a older 325 is better than a 318 or 323.

Unless the 323 that you're looking at is super inexpensive, there are better cars for the same money or slightly more.

My two cents.

Doc

Eddie better have 25 large!

[eddief]

i drove this thing and it goes just fine. i'm not a racer, just want something solid, fun, comfortable, SAFE. this one appears to be in near perfect condition with 70k miles, all receipts, and supposedly only needs rear brakes.

advertised at $13,700.

i am interested because it is so much the base model without all the geegaws. just a moonroof and fold down back seat.

think much of nitpicky stuff has been done while under warranty:

2-3 window regs
sunroof motor
front bushings
water pump
clutch(es)
cam positioning sensor

[marle]

I have a 2002 BMW 325i with 77,000 miles. Aside from the usual stuff, I had to replace the water pump at 75K. The car is still amazing.

[rwsaunders]

My favorite model Bimmer....

[Sandy]

I sort of own a 3 series BMW. It is a 1997 BMW M3, and is by far the finest car that I ever have owned. It has 83,000 miles on it and I have spent very little in repairs, even after the exteded warranty expired. A remarkable combination of handling, steering, braking, engine,,,, utility and just palin fun to own and drive. I am going to trade it in (I think) as I have bought a new car, but I like the car so much I am wondering why I am buying a new car, and why am I even trading it in.

I know this is new car, but I thought tht I would mention it- The BMW 335i is remarkable car, with an amzingly impressive twin turbo with 300 hp and 300ft-pd of torque (reached at 1400 rpm and maintained to 5000 rpm).

I think that BMW 3 series cars are not the chepest cars to buy or even maintain, but there is a real fun factor in driving them.


Sandy

[ti_boi]

I know this is new car, but I thought tht I would mention it- The BMW 335i is remarkable car, with an amzingly impressive twin turbo with 300 hp and 300ft-pd of torque (reached at 1400 rpm and maintained to 5000 rpm).


Sandy


Took my 05 3 series in for service and they gave me a 6 speed 335 for the loaner....and Yes. It was absolutely and completely awesome. Super fast and fluid with power for days.....*sigh*

Here is an interesting article about the car I drive: http://www.modernracer.com/history/bmw325xihistory.html

[mavic1010]

I've gone through quite a few BMW's as I have Serottas, and yes they are not cheap to maintain. But neither is a Lexus, Infiniti, Mercedes etc. If you want to maintain a cheap car, Honda or Toyota is probably the way to go.

As for reliability, don't treat the 3 series like trash and it will basically last forever. There will be some annoyances like the a window regulator, bushings wearing out etc, but it's just part of owning the car. I think part of the problem is that when things wear out on the BMW, the car won't feel the same so we complain about how things break or wear out. Bushings on a lexus or toyota wear out too, but I'm sure we don't push the car as hard as we would with a fine german vehicle, so drivers probably don't notice it or care.

I currently drive a 335i 6 speed and it's a really fun car. However, it's still not an M.

[ti_boi]

The M's are full blooded race cars....my purchase was a compromise.
I needed 4 doors and AWD....I didn't care for the way Audi's felt and the current iteration of the BMW six is silky smooth with lots of low end torque.

I like the classic 4 door configuration, mine is electric red with a black sport interior, so it has a classic look. I am attracted to 'classic' designs that hold up over time. My major complaint about the appearance of the Asian cars is that they seem to alter their designs every few years and essentially obsolete their own models. Whereas, BMW likes to make changes that always give a nod to the past....although Chris Bangle and his team seem to be fighting that tradition.

Let me also mention that I bought my car with 7k miles from a dealer, had it certified to 100k just for the added security of an extended warrantee....they just completed a new brake job rotors and pads...for free...part of the service plan. Can't beat that for affordability.

I am sold on the brand and hope to drive mine for many years. I truly enjoy it, even though it is not overly powerful, the power it has is 'usable'. It is great in corners and climbs like a mountain goat.....hmmmm, sounds like a Serotta. :beer:

[Ken Robb]

you can search the archives for MANY posts on this subject. Heck lots of them are mine due to my owning nothing else for over 20 years.

re web complaints: these are the people who really drive their cars very hard and, in many cases, with absolutely no skill or empathy with machinery. Many of the complpaints are about the first year of the model, especially the 1999 3 series. Interestingly that was the year BMW tried to make their cars appeal more to folks cross-shopping Lexus. The steering effort and feel was reduced and the suspension softened for USA models. I had been waiting for this car to come to market as my 1992 325i had 100,000 miles and was fully depreciated for taxes. After 3 test drives of the 1999 E46 3 seires I was left shaking my head at how un-BMW-like they were so I had to go to Salt Lake City to find one of the last 1998 M3 sedans.

Any BMW that needs multiple clutches in 40,000 miles is being driven by someone totally inept. I replaced the clutch in my 325i at 80,000 miles as preventive maintenace because by then the the car had over 150 track days on it. Same thing for the M3. My 2004 330i with performance package has been flawless except for an engine computer upgrade by BMW.

Having instructed at 100's of driving schools for BMW and other brands I can tell you too many horror stories of car owners who think if "pretty stiff" suspension is good "really stiff" must be better. They end up with cars that may or may not be slightly faster on perfectly smooth pavement but definitely absolutely twitchy, darty, crummy-riding buckboards on normal roads and many tracks. These are usually the same people complaining about suspensions coming apart and frequent bushing failures because the compliance they eliminated in their suspension has to go somewhere. The only suspension mods that I would consider for my car now would come from Dinan as I know from driving them that cars w/Dinan SYSTEMS (not just a piece here and there) do have an edge on the track and still are civilized on the road.

The BMWCCA can provide lists of independent service facilities for BMW cars that are less expensive than new car dealers and both kinds of shops usually offer discounts to Club members.

Now here's a surprise from an obvious fan: If you don't think you want to enjoydriving in a "sporting" manner maybe you can get more value in a Honda or something like that. I like their sedans a lot better than Toyotas.

BTW, I think you are on the right track thinking that the more bells and whistles a car has the more likely you are to have niggling problems when the car get 7+ years old. OTOH, my 1992, 1998 are stil going strong with 140,000 and 139,000 miles. They each have new radiators and water pumps.

[ThasFACE]

I am buying a new car

What're you getting?

[I really love my M3 too, but I think I'm moving up a size this year to the e39 M5; should be fun]

[eddief]

gotta say it goes good, handles good enough, runs on 87 octane, and seems like the content and the reliability might fit the bill for me.

[chuckred]

have driven four or five examples of sedans with 5 speed manual transmission all in the 2000-2004 years. i do love the experience in the saddle. but then i do research on the net and the e46 feedback is pretty horrendous. seems for the wonderful driving experience you trade your first born kid for:

sunroof motors
front bushings
window regulators up the yinyang
sunroof shades
cooling system issues at 30-40k miles
etc...

spoke to someone yesterday who had to replace his auto trans at 40k.

either why can't bmw nail down the quality or where is the similar driving experience from the asian community?

Now relegated to the park at the airport, or the kids can use it when they're home...

Drives nice, but the inside is crumbling before my eyes. Anything held together with a plastic fitting is falling off - headliners, door panels, cover of the glove box, etc.

Engine always seemed to run low on fluid until finally I ended up having to replace the head. Auto Transmission went out (but at around 100 k miles, not 40!) and was replaced. I'm now in the position that the transmission is worth more than I could sell the car for, so its going to be driven until it dies for good.

Water pump apparently is a known problem - new replacements have a metal impeller instead of plastic. A fairly easy fix...

Window regulators aren't too hard to replace (if I can do it, anyone can!).

Can't remember about the bushings...

It really was a great car until it became the daily driver for the kids when it mysteriously started to crumble.

But, you'll pay for maintenance, no doubt! And if you live where there's snow, be sure to opt for traction control, or even look for an ix, perhaps. Ours has neither and only does "OK" with studded tires and 150 pounds of ballast in the trunk, but at least it's easy to control when it starts sliding around!

I guess it's no different than buying a high cost bike vs. a Trek. The Trek works as well or better than many bikes that cost twice as much, but it's an image thing! Don't buy an used BMW unless you want a BMW! If you want reliable and affordable performance, check out a Nissan Altima or Maxima!

[C5 Snowboarder]

Lexus or BMW ?? I will take BMW

Last year I traded my Lexus in on a BMW. I was a Lexus fan until I wanted a new one, the dealership new sales person was a ****head, a better than thou attitude which was the same as the service reps. The Lexus was reliable I only had one or two small problems but I had it serviced at the dealership. Everytime I brought it in they had their nose in the air and a real crappy attitude. It was not just me as I waited for my usual oil change I listened to how they worked other customers in the service waiting area, same crappy attitude. I went to BMW and what a change - very nice people both sales and service. I just had my first service - cost of which is included with the price of the car - and the service people were top notch, not a** kissing nice but just earth level treat you well nice. Only one issue so far with my BMW - the wiper blades wore out - they replaced them at no charge.
Color me BMW :banana:

[Sandy]

What're you getting?

[I really love my M3 too, but I think I'm moving up a size this year to the e39 M5; should be fun]

I am purchasing a Cayman S (Porsche). It was going to be a 2007, but I couldn't add an option that I really wanted as the car was already scheduled for production and couldn't be changed. So just today, the dealer and I changed it to a 2008, which I will probably get around September. The car is not practical as it is a two seater, and has limited storage (more than one would think with its two trunks (car is mid-engined). Its prowess is performance- Handling, braking, engine, steering, shifting,...are simply superb.

The M5 is a car that really has it all. Wonderful automobile!!


:) Simply Superb Shifting Stopping Steering Simpleton Serotta Sandy :)

[ThasFACE]

I am purchasing a Cayman S (Porsche)

Sweet. I had the opportunity to take a Cayman out a little while ago and it was just awesome. The S should be ridiculously good; a 'forever' car.