Desperately seeking geometry

[eyemage]

Swoop and others,

How did you find your “right” geometry? It seems like custom fitters go through different methods of determining the right fit. Looking back over the years, what can I do to avoid mistakes? Do you have any tips?

I’m interested to hear your story.

[stevep]

you have to make mistakes...as you go along the mistakes get smaller until you just like to ride what you have.
this is not meant to be wisearse.
depends on so many things. an honest analysis of your own strengths and wishes helps to steer the ship into the current, after that you gotta learn to ride the waves.
start with:
what do you have now?
how do you ride?
where do you realistically want to go with this thing.

answers vary between.
i love my 1981 centurian and cannot imagine a better bike even though i have trouble buying 7 speed road cassettes now.
and
i have bought 5 $9,000 bikes this year and i dont like any of them...this one should be this way, that one needs to be more like that one, etc, etc

[eyemage]

i have bought 5 $9,000 bikes this year and i dont like any of them...this one should be this way, that one needs to be more like that one, etc, etc

Egad, can I ask what were the bikes?

and why you did not like them?

Enquiring minds want to know...

[vandeda]

Egad, can I ask what were the bikes?

and why you did not like them?

Enquiring minds want to know...

I think Steve was just giving theoretical examples .....

Though the Centurion example sounds like it's describing me lol ... though I must say, the fit is perfect on my custom ... as comfortable as can be, it was just the other aspects that didn't work.

[thejen12]

you have to make mistakes...as you go along the mistakes get smaller until you just like to ride what you have.

Steve has a good point. It takes some experience (unless you're lucky) to find the right geometry. Here's my story:

1. I knew nothing about bikes and bought a $300 Hybrid because I didn't want to spend a lot of money. It turned out to be too big (the "fit" test was standing over it in the bike shop, and it was a step-through frame). After buying this I joined a bike club, but couldn't handle their rides. Many riders remarked that my bike was "too big" - I thought they were rude, but they were right. ;) I still use this bike for running short errands, I keep hoping it will get stolen, but no luck.

2. Then husband said, "this won't do", and bought me a $2000 Klein "touring" bike that fit much better. Not the most comfortable ride, but it basically fit. If I had known the price before-hand I would have said, "No Way", but that was kept hidden from me! I still use this bike for rainy-weather commuting.

3. Started racing, wanted a racing frame. Bought a lower-end bike because by this time I knew that I didn't know exactly what I wanted.

4. Quit racing, figured out what I liked/didn't like about bikes #2 and #3, and bought a higher-end bike. This one was almost "the one" but injuries from an old car accident were bothering me more and more as I got older. Finally found a good physical therapist (& cycling coach) and found out what a proper reach would be for someone in my condition (after a couple of years in PT, improving what I could).

5. Took this info, along with what I liked/didn't like about bikes #2-4 to a frame builder and ordered a custom bike. He took my input and also fitted me himself, and that's where I am today. So far I love my new custom bike! I've only been riding it for about a month, though.

This process took me 15 years, and I don't know if I'm done, yet! My physical abilities may change, the type of riding I want to do may change... that's probably why so many of the members of this forum have lots of bikes.

My cycling club has an "Academy" for new riders, and I love it when they show up with a borrowed bicycle, because what they think they want now is often not at all what they want at the end of the multi-week course. Sometimes they show up with brand new bikes, and it's a shame because a lot of those wind up in the classifieds by the end of the course (like my original Hybrid would have).

Good luck,

Jenn

[Peter P.]

I have to congratulate Jenn for "getting it"! She did exactly the right thing in her journey towards a bike with the "right" geometry-especially steps 3 and 4:

"3. Started racing, wanted a racing frame. Bought a lower-end bike because by this time I knew that I didn't know exactly what I wanted.

4. Quit racing, figured out what I liked/didn't like about bikes #2 and #3, and bought a higher-end bike."

First, with her prior experience she knew it would be wise to not spend big dollars on a racing bike because she had an understanding of geometry and knew she wasn't sure what she wanted. So she spent low on a racing bike so she wouldn't waste big dollars as she began her journey towards geometry satisfaction.
Then, as she gained familiarity with bikes and knew their geometries, she filed the numbers in her head and compared what she liked/didn't like about each frame and narrowed it down, sort of like spiraling towards the target.

So your first step should be to find out and write down if you can, the specs of your current bike and your older bikes perhaps, and make a list of the pros/cons of each. Which top tube length did you prefer? Which bike steered more to your liking. Then share the info with a framebuilder or try to find a stock frame that fits the bill. Just don't spend the big dollars until you KNOW what you like and can quantify it, unless you can afford to spend money without keeping track of it.

The other route is to pick a framebuilder and trust their judgment. You will only be satisfied with a framebuilder that has extensive dialogue with you, asking lots of questions and perhaps examining your position and your current bike.

My story? Well, when I started cycling some 30+ years ago as a teenager, I had NO idea about geometry. My first couple bikes were too big and too long in the top tube, and I didn't know squat about angles. But, I DID recognize the too big, too long thing.

So, about the time I entered the military, I ordered a custom frame from a well-known builder. Mind you, I had only been cycling about 5 years. At the time, this builder was building "whatever" you wanted, so not knowing that I could actually be measured by the local shop or the builder himself, I merely spec'd a frame that was a bit smaller and shorter than what I had ridden. The local shop owners had this thing for the head angle being 1 degree slacker than the seat angle; I didn't know what it meant, if anything, so I just followed along. The rest of the frame specs I sort of picked from bike magazines.

The bike fit better than my previous bikes, but IT STILL DIDN'T FIT. I knew it was too long in the top tube because I used a short stem and slid the seat forward to reach the bars. Considering my brief cycling history, it would have been smartest if I just sent the builder whatever measurements he wanted and trusted him, but I can still remember being afraid if I did that I might get a frame that didn't fit-like I shouldn't trust the framebuilder! But hey; what did I know?

So I rode that frame a couple years and got tired of the still poor fit, but at least I had numbers from this frame and experience riding it to know which directions I wanted the dimensions to go.

I had another custom frame made by a friend/hobbyist framebuilder. By this time I knew what were considered "standard" seat tube vs. top tube combinations, and steered my new frame in that direction. This time, I could just have easily picked and off-the-rack frame and it would have fit because I had experience with other bikes and knew their numbers as well as my body dimensions, and about now some of the magazines began publishing articles about how to fit yourself to a frame (this was the early '80's). This frame fit fine; it just wasn't straight and couldn't be aligned, so I let it go after a couple years.

By now I had enough of an education to understand the basics of seat tubes and top tube lengths to pick with confidence the dimensions I preferred. As far as angles go, I've gained an understanding by reading a lot and owning bikes with varying angles, paying attention to their different attributes. Same goes for fork rakes and bottom bracket heights.

My suggestion is go to SEVERAL different fitters and don't tell one about the other. Just let them do their thing and compare the differences. Even though you may have to shell out a hundred bucks or so per fitter, that money would be well spent; consider it tuition for your class on bike fit. Or, if possible, go directly to a framebuilder and let their practiced eye interpret your needs. A good builder is willing to have a dialogue with you and address your concerns and answer your questions until you're completely satisfied.

You should also read as much as you can about fit and frame sizing. I'll give you one link to get you started:

http://www.prodigalchild.net/Bicycle6.htm

Dave Moulton was a highly respected framebuilder in the '80's and his articles offer some very sound advice about frame fit. Peruse the rest of the site as well. Incidentally, his chart works fine for me. I followed the instructions in blue and came out with a perfect fit. I did as follows below:

"Another way to interpret the chart below; if your height and inseam do not fall on the same line. Look at the line where your height is; then look where your inseam is. This would be the two extremes of frame sizes; your best size is going to be somewhere in between. See which line your shoe size falls on and use that to decide which direction your best fit will be."

My shoe size steered me towards a taller frame than straight inseam alone would. And if I chose on height alone, I'd be on a smaller frame. By allowing my shoe size to influence my frame size instead of just straight inseam, I found the perfect size.

[swoop]

i think everything that's been said here has mirrored my experiences almost exactly... especially jen and stevep.

[Ray]

I have a very similar story, except for the racing part. But I really wonder whether all of that experience and figuring out what I liked and what I didn't really helped. Because, about 9 years in I got that seemingly perfect custom and its geometry was NOT all that much like what I'd previously narrowed it down to liking. I knew how I wanted the bike to handle and I communicated that to the designer, and he knew the geo of the bikes I'd liked best over the years. But the geo he put together for me was something I'd probably have NEVER come up with on my own. And, my goodness, it worked!

So I wonder if he might not have been able to do the same thing when I'd only been riding for 5 years, or 2 for that matter? I obviously don't know, but its enough to make me wonder. I think if you've ridden enough to know quick from stable and communicate where on that spectrum you want your bike to be, a good fitter/desigern can probably put you on a trainer for a few minutes and figure out what you need.

I'm just not sure that all of the "knowledge" I'd developed over nearly 10 years of buying and riding bikes really contributed very much at all to the process. I think it may just come down to putting yourself in the hands of someone who KNOWS what they're doing.

-Ray

[whitecda]

http://www.prodigalchild.net/Bicycle6.htm





Whoa, awesome info! Wish I'd have found that about 2 bikes ago! My first real custom built (yes, a White CDA) is due in tomorrow. Somewhat excited :banana:

[swoop]

its very much like trying to find the perfect pair of jeans. there's always that one pair you had in highschool that fit perfectly and you wore until you couldn't patch them anymore.... and then you go buy the same sized jeans and they don't fit at all and you never really love them.

and then all the sudden this other pair that you never loved becomes that pair of jeans that you always wear first....


so while al the jeans fit... there's something about that one pair. bikes are like that too.

[LesMiner]

I have had similar experience with fitting a bike. I been through both good and bad. I went to a shop for fitting and they were using the adjustable bike and all. I was not impressed. I got all the dimensions but it was at the end of the session that really turned me off. The guy doing the fit is also a saleman, probably the same as any other person doing fittings in a shop. After he arrives at a suitable frame size like 60 cm, he offers me this high end Time frame, fork and stem that's 56 cm. Just like a used car salesman he says you can get a really good deal. I will talk to the manager. Out comes the manager with the frame making the pitch. So after finding the right geometry the shop is trying to sell me a frame no where near the right size! At that point for me it was, are you kidding or what? That shop lost all creditability and respect with me. Obviously no sale. Appeared to me the shop was stuck with a frame they couldn't sell so they tried to get me to buy it. I paid the fee and left.

To the good side. I've been going in and out of this LBS for a couple of years establishing a knowledge of how they operate, expertise, and customer service. I decided to get a fitting on an existing bike because I had some fit issues with it. This fitter, also the shop owner, took pictures of me on the bike, tried swaping out different handlebars and stems to improve the fit. Swaping out parts was not enough to make an acceptable fit. Tried my other bike, better fit swapping out parts made more improvment. At that point I decided to replace the poor fit frame with a custom. So it was on to the adjustable fit bike. The fitter also called in his partner for consultation to discuss the fit. The order is in and in few weeks I will have a Serrota Legend ST. They also helped out on selling off the old frame and a few components. A real contrast to the bad experience.

The Bill Moulton site does have a lot great insight to the fit of a bike. On his fit chart I would span 4 rows if I take all the columns into account. I don't know if Litespeed still does it but they did have a custom frame size option. Interestingly they also had questions on shoulder pain, back pain, hand numbness location, etc.

http://litespeed.com/LitespeedCustomForm.pdf

The best testimonal I have heard for a custom fit frame is from a guy I have ridden with for a few years. He bought a custom steel frame 30 years ago and has since upgraded to 10 speed DA. He also has a couple of top end Treks (I think he was lusting to be Lance). But its the old steel custom one that he rides the most. Its the one that fits the best and the most comfortable. He would sell off the Treks if he could his money back. That really says geometry is everything.

[eyemage]

I am impressed by the wealth of knowledge on this forum. Here is what I learned so far:


1. It may take years to fit that perfect geometry.
2. You will make mistakes along the way.
3. Remember that old steel bike you liked so much? Many of us still love ours.
4. If it is at all possible, have the builder themselves fit you.
5. Trust your builder, they know more than you do.
6. Your body can and will change due to injury, age, abilities, etc. This requires a brand new fit.
7. What you liked in the bike store may be horrible at the end of the week.
8. Try several fitters before laying down the big bucks. Pay them for their time.
9. Read up on bike fitting.
10. It is not always the fitter’s fault, it may be yours due to lack of experience, communication or knowledge. You may not have the experience to know what you want or need.
11. Bikes fit like jeans.
12. Don’t be talked into a bike that does not fit you (no matter how great of a bargain)
13. Geometry is everything.


I like to continue to add to this list.

Keep your stories coming!

[swoop]

eyemage.... post pictures of the holland when you get it!


*woopsie.. look at me geting all the names confused. too many coversations at the same time!

yer... yeah... that's a nice summation there. having a bikeshop employee that you trust goes a long way when your working stuff out too. and riders kind of mentor each other on the road.... its great way to pick up and share insights and ideas.

[morty]

I think you've got it. Sometimes you first have to kiss a lot of frogs...

My story is very similar to the ones posted here and, like most women (yeah, I speak through Morty, my cat), I have suffered through poor bike fit from the get-go.

My first bike was a well-known brand, entry level aluminum frame purchased at my local bike shop. They had me stand over the top tube and suggested I should ride a 58cm. I knew nothing about bike fit or geometry, but, even in my naivete, felt this might be too much, so I opted for the next size down, a 56cm--I'm 5'7". I rode this bike for a couple years, unaware of handling or fit issues; I was getting stronger and having fun.

Then, I slowly became aware that other riders of my height were on much smaller frames and that maybe I should drop down a size again. I was ready to upgrade to better components anyway, and when I saw the new "colors" (geesh!) on the next crop of bikes, I traded in for a 54cm which felt great, or so I thought.

Jump forward another couple of years, and after a particularly nasty crash that left me with torn ligaments, I felt maybe it was time to try a different frame material, something less harsh than the stiff aluminum I had known. It was then that I started to read everything I could on bike fit: books, magazine articles, and on-line resources. I learned basic things like top tube length was more important than seat tube length, and if your saddle isn't centered on the rails or you need a stubby stem for comfortable reach, your bike probably doesn't fit properly--things that any bike shop sales person should know and steer you away from, but unfortunately this isn't usually the case.

I decided on a particular Italian steel bike as my next purchase, special ordered out of Canada since they weren't being imported into the US at the time. This bike was a smaller frame yet, a 52, with a significantly shorter top tube than my previous bike. With the first few pedal strokes, I fell in love. I could not believe the difference in feel and handling on this bike. It felt so smooth, was stable descending, and cornered beautifully. Out of the saddle climbing was effortless. My weight distribution was spot-on.

Now I had something to reference from. My old bike was very unstable in the front end, like riding on an ice cube always fighting to hold a steady line. There was nothing wrong with the bike itself, it just didn't fit me well. It had the geometry of a crit bike in addition to being too big, stretching me out and putting too much of my weight back. The frame was also too stiff for my weight, causing it to bounce and chatter all over the place. This bike is now my beater, one I use on a stationary trainer or to loan out.

Fast forward to the present. I have added a couple more bikes to the stable, a carbon frame and a Legend ti. The Legend , a second-hand custom, is my long-distance, comfy bike. It has slacker angles and fits like a glove. While it isn't as fast and nimble as the Italian bike, it does exactly as it was intended to do very well.

Someday I hope to be fortunate enough to have a custom bike built, but until then I'll keep refining what I have and learning as I go.

[vaxn8r]

I am impressed by the wealth of knowledge on this forum. Here is what I learned so far:


1. It may take years to fit that perfect geometry.
2. You will make mistakes along the way.
3. Remember that old steel bike you liked so much? Many of us still love ours.
4. If it is at all possible, have the builder themselves fit you.
5. Trust your builder, they know more than you do.
6. Your body can and will change due to injury, age, abilities, etc. This requires a brand new fit.
7. What you liked in the bike store may be horrible at the end of the week.
8. Try several fitters before laying down the big bucks. Pay them for their time.
9. Read up on bike fitting.
10. It is not always the fitter’s fault, it may be yours due to lack of experience, communication or knowledge. You may not have the experience to know what you want or need.
11. Bikes fit like jeans.
12. Don’t be talked into a bike that does not fit you (no matter how great of a bargain)
13. Geometry is everything.


I like to continue to add to this list.

Keep your stories coming!
14. Get a bike that should fit and ride it a whole bunch and pretty soon it'll be your favorite pair of jeans...er...bike.

Seriously, this whole custom fit thing is way, way over the top. Just get a bike and ride it.

[Jack Brunk]

14. Get a bike that should fit and ride it a whole bunch and pretty soon it'll be your favorite pair of jeans...er...bike.

Seriously, this whole custom fit thing is way, way over the top. Just get a bike and ride it.


Post of the afternoon/evening.

[SoCalSteve]

14. Get a bike that should fit and ride it a whole bunch and pretty soon it'll be your favorite pair of jeans...er...bike.

Seriously, this whole custom fit thing is way, way over the top. Just get a bike and ride it.

Unless of course you have a weird body type...And even then you can pretty much make a stock bike work....

I have one of those body types..All torso, no legs. And, for the most part with the right stem, bar and seatpost combo, I can get it really close to what I need-want-like.

Good luck,

Steve

PS: When you do find the bike thats "right in the money" dont let it go until you know exactly why its so "right" for you....Knowing this will help immensly with any other bike that you purchase in the future.

[eyemage]

The list continues…

14. Your most valuable advice may come from other riders.
15. Custom is not the be all, end all; just get a bike and ride it.
16. If you cannot visit a builder, a bike shop guru will suffice.
17. Stock bikes are not evil.
18. Study your old comfortable bike and why it’s soooooo good.

Many of us are seeking knowledge, we want to hear your stories.

[Steve Hampsten]

I gotta say:

I just purchased Brent Curry's BikeCAD Pro program

It makes bicycle geometry and design incredibly easy and understandable - dependent on input, natch

Anybody who is interested in design, fitting, and geometry would benefit from this - it ain't cheap, but if you amortize it over your next five bikes (two, really) it makes a lot of sense

Canadian dollars, shockingly, so there's a discount right off the bat

Sorta

[davids]

Seriously, this whole custom fit thing is way, way over the top. Just get a bike and ride it.
This reflects my experience regarding geometry. There's this thing called a bell curve and, applied to our sizes and shapes, shows that most of us fall towards certain standards. So, most of us don't need a custom size. I certainly don't.

I now have three road bikes, each built to a maker's standard geometry - A 52cm Seven, a 52cm sloping Serotta, and a 51cm Pegoretti. They're each slightly different in their geos, and each ride and handle differently. But they all fit me. (The Axiom is a very good bike, and the Nove and Love #3 are superb bikes, atmo.)

So, my method of avoiding mistakes?

1. Get a good, non-obsessive fitter who understands that this isn't an exact science. Use the results as a ballpark when trying different frames.
2. Buy stock frames for a while, and see what you like. Feel free to stop at this step.
3. Use the geos of stock frames you like as a basis for your conversations with custom makers.