OT: the great american novel?

[Climb01742]

books are discussed here pretty often, so i thought i'd ask this question:

has THE great american novel been written? one distinction i'd make is a great novel written by an american vs. the great american novel (TGAN). in thinking about the great american novel, i'd put forth that it needs to have as its subject a great american issue. hemingway wrote great novels but he didn't tackle great american issues. i think hemingway may be america's greatest writer (or maybe just my fav :rolleyes: ) but i don't think he wrote TGAN.

i suppose my pick would be "the grapes of wrath". but i guess part of my reason for asking the question is...is the great american novel still to be written?

[Moveitfred]

No, and never will be.

Single works like Blood Meridian and Beloved probably come as close as you'll get, imho.

[Onno]

Any discussion of this question has to include Moby D!ck (can't believe the title of TGAN is censored!!!!) and The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn . The former is "American" in its size, scope, and ambition; Melville tried to write the biggest novel on the biggest questions. Moreover, the novel is centrally about the relation of the individual to the group, a question that obsesses Americans more than most others, I think. Yet it's not really set in the U.S., is only marginally about race, and it includes virtually no women. So, big as it is, there's an awful lot left out! Twain's classic I think more often is given the title of TGAN (Hemingway called it this, by the way). I like it less than MD, but it is probably thematically more "American." Whatever meaning TGAN has as a concept (itself hugely debatable), it tends to privilege early novels that by their influence help to establish a tradition of American writing. Again, Twain wins by this standard--Huck Finn has influenced many more writers than Moby D!ck.

Anyway, everybody should read both of them!

Onno

[malcolm]

contemporary. My fav is Jeffery Lent. I've read two by him that are great, Blood Nation and Into the Fall. The latter sort of deals with an american issue.
He may actually be Canadian, but I'm not sure.

[michael white]

Huck Finn
Moby ****
Death Comes for the Archbishop

[scottcw2]

I'll go with a different Steinbeck novel - East of Eden. Also, To Kill a Mockingbird and, as another poster mentioned, Uncle Tom's Cabin.

[Bradford]

Moby D!ck, Huckleberry Finn, The Great Gatsby.

My master's thesis was on Melville with an emphasis on Moby D!ck, so that shows how important I think it is. The problem with Moby D!ck is that it isn't as accessible to casual readers as other books. The depth of reading necessary to understand Moby D!ck was common when it was written, but few people are that well read today.

I think Huckleberry Finn and The Great Gatsby are much more accessible and each one tackles issues that are critical to America.

I'd put the Grapes of Wrath up in the second tear of important books, but it has too many holes to be the best. Morrison is my favorite modern author, but Beloved isn't even her best book. I'd put Song of Soloman before Beloved.

In my opinion, the other great books that need to be mentioned are Invisible Man, Walden (although more a book of philosophy than a novel), In Our Time, Uncle Tom's Cabin, and with apologies to Mr. Twain, the Leatherstocking tales.

[Tom]

I thought 'Sometimes A Great Notion' was pretty good.

[labratmatt]

My pick has to be Of mice and men. Deeply American. Wonderful story. Wonderfully written.

[FATBOY]

No, and never will be.

Single works like Blood Meridian and Beloved probably come as close as you'll get, imho.

Blood Meridian is one of the most incredibly "visual" books I have ever read. Few books I have read would lend themselves as well to being made into a film. Not that I would want that to happen, just sayin'.

Gatsby, Catch-22, Moby ****............It would be easy to consider all of these in my mind.

[bluehorseshoe]

Race, class, homosocial relationships, hints at homoeroticism, and a narrator who isn't self aware enough to know what's at stake, or even when he's lying -- what's more American than Gatsby?

JMHO. Lots of other good stuff on this list, too.

Invisible Man kinda rocks my little world as well, and has the power and scope to be on this list.

[SimonC]

Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas :rolleyes:

or

Democracy in America by Alexis de Tocqueville :)

[csm]

MAN IN FULL by Tom Wolfe

[MarleyMon]

One Hundred Years of Solitude by Gabriel Garcia Marquez -"america" is a big place - are you limiting it to el norte y Estados Unidos?. ;)


Go Down, Moses - William Faulkner

[mosca]

I thought 'Sometimes A Great Notion' was pretty good.Most definitely. :)

[asgelle]

Of course it has.
http://www.amazon.com/Great-American-Novel-Philip-Roth/dp/0679749063/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-9018759-0105539?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1177283959&sr=8-1

[tch]

Race, class, homosocial relationships, hints at homoeroticism, and a narrator who isn't self aware enough to know what's at stake, or even when he's lying -- what's more American than Gatsby?

JMHO. Lots of other good stuff on this list, too..
I gotta say that, dated as it might seem on first look back at it, Gatsby still holds strong. Specific circumstances might change, but the issues and the characters are timeless. If it is one book, this might be it.

For all out epic, however, don't miss Faulkner's Snopes trilogy: The Hamlet, The Mansion, and the The Town. While the books are often overlooked by critics who celebrate individual Faulkner novels, these three put together challenge anything written anywhere -- including 100 Years of Solitude, which I, too, would nominate. And BTW, for greatest U.S. writers, it's no contest: Faulkner by a landslide.

[goonster]

Blood Meridian is one of the most incredibly "visual" books I have ever read. Few books I have read would lend themselves as well to being made into a film. Not that I would want that to happen, just sayin'.

+1 on 'Blood Meridian'. Maybe not the greatest evar, but it belongs in this illustrious company.

The motion picture (http://imdb.com/title/tt0983189/) is in development as we speak. Not sure Ridley Scott is the right director for this, but William Monahan should be up to the task for the screenplay.

[Louis]

Let's broaden the discussion a bit.

Can one create similar lists for the Brits and the French? Their "arc of history" is farther along than ours, so they're more likely to already have TGBN or TGFN. We know for a fact that TGRN (Russian) has already been written - there's little doubt about that.

Louis

PS

In case you're wondering, I'm not sure which is TGRN, there are a few to choose from, but I am 100% sure that it has already been written...

[MarinRider]

Another vote for Blood Meridian. Judge Hoden is a study in human darkness and relentless evil. As with any of Cormac's books, the passages are extremely visual and vivid and many of his descriptions of the Southwestern landscape from atop of horsebacks remind me of the solitary moments I had on the bike with wind in my face observing all that's around and feeling incredibly alive.

[Louis]

I disagree with others on this one.

Blood Meridian is A great American novel, but no way, no how, is it the great American novel. I think the scope is too narrow for that, plus the "driven man" thing has already been done.

Louis

[Ginger]

Some very excellent American novels are listed in this thread. Some have a very narrow scope which while acceptable to many, leave me rather disenchanted.

Adulation of dead drunks aside....In my mind the real question is: Has the great american novel been *published.* We are far more at the mercy of those who choose what fluff is marketable than ever before. If the great American novel is written tomorrow, I don't think it will ever see the printed page.

[djg]

...

Go Down, Moses - William Faulkner

Maybe... Absalom, Absalom!

[sc53]

Saul Bellow and Philip Roth--pick any.

[Climb01742]

i'm a huge fan of the great gatsby -- in particular the last page -- but as much as i like it, i'm not sure it is truly great. its structure is a bit creaky. it has brilliant pieces, as good as any in any novel, but the whole doesn't quite hold, IMO.

faulkner's writing is a bit tortured for my tastes, but then no one who likes hemingway's prose as much as i do could judge faulker's page long sentences fairly.

interesting early american authors haven't been mentioned. hawthorne's scarlet letter? or slightly later...henry james?

a few writers who were very talented never quite found the big book, like john cheever or walker percy.

on various lists i've seen "call it sleep" by henry roth but it doesn't rise to the occassion, again IMO.

i had honestly forgotten about huck finn. a fascinating book in twain's late embittered phase is "the mysterious stranger". not great but man, twain got bitter at the end.

part of my yardstick is this: charles d_i_c_kens (to get by our censors) is my vote for greatest novelist in the english language. do any american novels measure up to his best? in their human depth, scope of issues and sheer writerly chops?

[Russell]

Trout Fishing in America :)

[jimcav]

MAN IN FULL by Tom Wolfe
that is just a good quick read

[Onno]

Yes, it's interesting that poor Hawthorne hasn't really been mentioned yet. I think that "The Scarlet Letter" and "Huck Finn" are the most frequently taught 19th C American novels. Hawthorne is undoubtedly an amazing writer, but I think he's too passionless for readers to get very enthusiastic about. The same probably goes for Henry James.

Faulkner gets the Greatest American Novelist award, I'd say. No one produced more amazing novels: in addition to those already mentioned, "As I Lay Dying" (there's a novel waiting for a movie version!), "The Sound and the Fury," and "Light in August." The problem with nominating him for TGAM is that you slight his other works if you select one. Melville and Twain don't have that problem.

Greatest story writer: Flannery O'Connor
Greatest poet: Frost? Stevens? Bishop?

[72gmc]

Perhaps it's a product of my highschool English classes, but novels that browbeat me about right and wrong (Grapes of Wrath, Scarlet Letter) don't stay high on my list.

I've said it before, but Wallace Stegner was a remarkable writer who captured slices of America very well through his characters. Crossing to Safety was not his Pulitzer winner but I think it was his best.

[jimcav]

novels that browbeat me about right and wrong
is about right/wrong/sin and not in the browbeat way, but more in it is all shades of gray; is a good read, good book, always relevant

think the author is douglas

jim

[Climb01742]

I've said it before, but Wallace Stegner was a remarkable writer who captured slices of America very well through his characters. Crossing to Safety was not his Pulitzer winner but I think it was his best.

"angle of repose" is wonderful; not TGAN material but damn fine readin'.

[MarinRider]

Blood Meridian is A great American novel, but no way, no how, is it the great American novel. I think the scope is too narrow for that, plus the "driven man" thing has already been done.


Yes, but to what degree can we say that there is one and only one great american novel? "Lear" can be charcterized as a melodrama of the Royal family, but few would argue about it's scope and its impact to English lit.

It also depends on where one is in his life. Take Kerouac's "On the Road" as an example:

...the mad ones, the ones who are mad to live, mad to talk, mad to be saved, desirous of everything at the same time, the ones who never say a commonplace thing, but burn, burn, burn, like fabulous yellow roman candles exploding like spiders across the stars and in the middle you see the blue centerlight pop and everybody goes 'Awww! '

I wanted to live like that in my twenties and to a degree did. Then I got old and tired and no longer can just burn. My days are much more measured now.

[goonster]

Blood Meridian is A great American novel, but no way, no how, is it the great American novel. I think the scope is too narrow for that, plus the "driven man" thing has already been done.


The scope is not that narrow. It's not like Moby D!ck is just about a dude and his whale, either.

Blood Meridian is about robbery, butchery, treachery and buggery. So the only thing missing for TGAN scope is obesity. :banana:

[Louis]

Yes, but to what degree can we say that there is one and only one great american novel?

I think we can all agree that there is no such thing, but it's fun to discuss just the same.

On a lighter note, Seuss (probably The Cat in the Hat, but there are other good ones) is also up there...

Louis

[72gmc]

If Louis is going to open that door, I submit The Giving Tree by Shel Silverstein.

Simply, sadly American in many ways.

[jimcav]

that excludes a short story, eh?
even fun ones

[Climb01742]

i wonder why there are so many "great", sweeping european and english novels that i believe most of us could agree are of the highest caliber...yet fewer american novels of the same sweep and caliber. any guesses why?

[shaq-d]

i wonder why there are so many "great", sweeping european and english novels that i believe most of us could agree are of the highest caliber...yet fewer american novels of the same sweep and caliber. any guesses why?

as a fellow hemingway fan, i'm of the mind that american novels are far superior than those written on that little island just west of europe... o well :p

i don't see why there ought to be THE great american novel, any more than there ought to be THE great russian novel... (dostoyevsky > tolstoy) afk

sd

[Bradford]

i wonder why there are so many "great", sweeping european and english novels that i believe most of us could agree are of the highest caliber...yet fewer american novels of the same sweep and caliber. any guesses why?
For me, it is the other way around. I find American literature far superior to English novels, mostly because I find the subject matter far more interesting.

Other than Vanity Fair, I had trouble getting through most English novels, and even that novel dragged on. On the other hand, I've known plenty of people who would agree with you, many of whom are very knowledgeable readers.

I think you comment reflects more of what you enjoy in literature and less of what is inherently true.

[Climb01742]

actually i like american novels better, with the exception of d_i_c_kens and some somerset maugham (razor's edge is, in some ways, an american novel). but when you look at english, french and russian novels, that is quite a body of great work. to be honest, i read most of them in college at gunpoint, and while it wasn't always fun, i have to respect their quality. many are 19th century. i wonder if part of the difference is what america was doing in the 19th century (building a nation) vs what europeans were doing (more time for reflection?).

this is a very subjective statement about art forms but hey...i think europeans have taken the novel further, while amerians have taken film further.

[sspielman]

I would like to remove ANYTHING by James Michener from consideration. He has to be the wordiest writer in history...never lets 10 words do when he can write 100.....AND his CHESAPEAKE has contributed considerably to the ruination of my home region....

[t. swartz]

Anything by Hemingway

[t. swartz]

Particularly To Have and Have Not

[Ginger]

i wonder why there are so many "great", sweeping european and english novels that i believe most of us could agree are of the highest caliber...yet fewer american novels of the same sweep and caliber. any guesses why?

many of the great euro novels were written in some ways to protest this that or the other thing in society. That whole undercurrent of the story within the story (even though I hate when people pick apart writing when they're not the ones who wrote it...) The subtleties in place because if they had laid them out word for word, they wouldn't have been published. 100s of years of repression and all that... Some of the American novels in the list above have to do with class differentiation and issues of the American male...but other than that...you're right, America was building a nation and while it has a class structure, it doesn't protest a lot about that, you do see that in some novels however... And it's easier for people to move between levels. And you're right...it was a bit more busy building than railing against the establishment/class/financial indignities of the world.

How many starving artists do we have today? Most don't languish for their art, they get a day job.

[tch]

Of course all of this discussion reflects what one values. Nevertheless... some responses:
To t.swartz and Climb: I think Hemingway's short stories are without doubt among the finest. "Hills Like White Elephants" or "A Clean Well-Lighted Place" might be the most perfect shorts ever written. But Hemingway's novels suffer from too much extension -- they get cliched, sentimental, predictable. They're just too much of Hemingway.

To Climb and Onno: It seems clear to me that Hawthorne and James suffer from the change of times. Hawthorne because American society doesn't understand the idea of hidden lives and guilt anymore; James because the taste in language has changed so radically. Few contemporary Americans are willing to wade through such long, dry prose to mine the richness within.

To several who nominate Huck Finn: Great first half, yes. Weak, tortured, cheap conclusion. Twain did the best he could given the circumstances, but deus ex machina ending ruins the courage of the first half. And...it's too easy to venerate this book because it exalts all of our pet values.

To Ginger and Climb: I might argue that American novels don't have that much sweep simply because we don't have that much history. And besides, Americans are famously focused: we tend to look at the here-and-now and ignore the history, context, ramifications of our actions. How many Americans would sit still for a novel like Crime and Punishment, where the focus is not on the action, but on the slow realization of, and attempts to deal with, the ramifications of the action. Look at any popular TV drama; the focus is on climax as defined by denouement -- not on the more subtle issues of falling action and resolution. Back to the Scarlet Letter; most of my students keep reading only to find out whether Hester will finally unmask Dimmesdale -- not to appreciate the insights about tortured human nature that Dimmesdale and Chillingworth offer.

[Tom]

That one was good. Real good.

[RIHans]

But , The Great Gatsby...re-read it and F. Scott's story will keep you reading.

[CPP]

I second To Kill a Mockingbird and would add You Can't Go home Again by Thomas Wolfe
CPP

[MartyE]

While Moby Dick should be included in any list
of great American Novels I put forth Lolita by Nabokov, for use of
language, for style for the chronicling of America in the late 50's.
Truly an amazing, underrated novel.

+1 for Trout Fishing in America and The Giving Tree

[72gmc]

the more I think about it, the more I come back to Gatsby. Maybe not "the" TGAN but "a", for sure.

[Bradford]

The best opening:

Call me Ishmael. Some years ago - never mind how long precisely - having little or no money in my purse, and nothing particular to interest me on shore, I thought I would sail about a little and see the watery part of the world. It is a way I have of driving off the spleen, and regulating the circulation. Whenever I find myself growing grim about the mouth; whenever it is a damp, drizzly November in my soul; whenever I find myself involuntarily pausing before coffin warehouses, and bringing up the rear of every funeral I meet; and especially whenever my hypos get such an upper hand of me, that it requires a strong moral principle to prevent me from deliberately stepping into the street, and methodically knocking people's hats off - then, I account it high time to get to sea as soon as I can. This is my substitute for pistol and ball. With a philosophical flourish Cato throws himself upon his sword; I quietly take to the ship. There is nothing surprising in this. If they but knew it, almost all men in their degree, some time or other, cherish very nearly the same feelings towards the ocean with me.


And the best finish:

And as I sat there brooding on the old, unknown world, I thought of Gatsby’s wonder when he first picked out the green light at the end of Daisy’s dock. He had come a long way to this blue lawn, and his dream must have seemed so close that he could hardly fail to grasp it. He did not know that it was already behind him, somewhere back in that vast obscurity beyond the city, where the dark fields of the republic rolled on under the night.

Gatsby believed in the green light, the orgastic future that year by year recedes before us. It eluded us then, but that’s no matter—to-morrow we will run faster, stretch out our arms farther. . . . And one fine morning——

So we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past.