regluing tubulars?

[H.Frank Beshear]

How often do you reglue your tubulars? I've got a pair of wheels that have had the same set of tires on for a couple years and a few thousand miles. Tires are still in good shape but I noticed that the edges in some spots is no longer glued tight. The center is firm and most of the areas only have one side or the other that is not stuck down. Peel off and start over? Inflate them and ride them a couple times and see if they stick back down? Advice is welcome, and yes I have a couple set's of clincher wheels so we don't need to travel down that very worn and tired road again, OK. Thanks in advance. Frank

[sspielman]

The integrity of the glue job really depends alot on how it has been stored. If you are seeing some compromise on the bond in a few spots on the edges, I would re-glue. Also when you peel off the tires, look at the old glue. If any has become 'crystalline' and powderises when you scratch at it, you need to remove it with solvent....the same is true if it has become contaminated with dirt. Otherwise, apply a new thin layer to tire and rim, straighten, inflate, allow to dry, test bond and go....

[regularguy412]

I don't ride tubulars as much as I used to. I have a pair of Campy Victory Chronos that I built up years ago as light race wheels. I used to re-glue mine about every other year. I used Vittoria Red cement. It seemed to get really hard and somewhat chalky after that length of time. I once rolled a tubular off the front wheel when I hit a curb during a warmup for a race. Luckily, it was a low speed mishap and I didn't crash. It was at that time that I decided it was better to be safe than sorry. So that became one of my off-season projects: strip the rim clean and re-glue. You should also inspect the base tape for proper adhesion to the sewn-up part of the tire, itself. Even if you get the tire glued to the rim properly, it's the base tape that is holding the tire TO the glue on the rim. I also used to inspect the glue after riding in the rain. Seems the wet/dry cycle is not beneficial to base tape or glue. I have since started using Continental Clear glue, but I haven't ridden my wheels much since gluing them up late last summer.

Mike in AR

[JF636]

The integrity of the glue job really depends alot on how it has been stored. If you are seeing some compromise on the bond in a few spots on the edges, I would re-glue. Also when you peel off the tires, look at the old glue. If any has become 'crystalline' and powderises when you scratch at it, you need to remove it with solvent....the same is true if it has become contaminated with dirt. Otherwise, apply a new thin layer to tire and rim, straighten, inflate, allow to dry, test bond and go....


I agree, since I go through the rears much more frequently than the fronts, I have to re-glue on occasion. I left my front on a few years...once...after I found out how easy it came off when I finally decided to reglue it. Now when I do a rear (from normal wear replacement) I remove the front and clean the glue off the rim and reglue as a pair. I feel better doing this.

[dirtdigger88]

frank-

if you need tips on removing clue from you tubulars- I have cracked to code :D

for aluminum rims at least . . .

Jason

[thwart]

Alright, after that teaser, where's the answer? I for one would appreciate any tubie "pearls"...

Bought an old pair of Campy Electron tubies (remember those?) from a fellow Forumite a couple of wks ago and they need a little work :p Pretty wheels, though. And light. :banana:

[dirtdigger88]

repeat after me- "there is no magic bullet . . . there is no magic bullet . . ."

Ive been using Goof Off from home depot- dont get the other one Goo Gone- it doesnt work- you can tell the one is better just by the high you get from the fumes-

tear up an old t shirt into wash rag size pieces- pour the solvant on your rag

coat the wheel two or three times letting it sit for 20-30 minutes between coats- then dull a small screw driver ever so slightly- now alternate between heavy doses of the Goof Off and light scraping with the screw driver

I mean light- all you are trying to do is make tiny cuts in the glue in the beginning- just to get the solvant inside the glue more-

now I just alternated the doses of solvant and light scraping several more times- just when you think you are making ZERO progress- the glue will start comming off very easily-

lastly I hit the rims with acetone to kill any solvant left-

warnings-

do this in a well vented area- and if you are outside make sure its not windy (the wind evaporates the solvant before it can work)- watch out for you decals- if you are not careful you are going to take those off with the glue

I ususally do this while Im working on another project- so I just go back to my wheels every 30 minutes or so-

jason

[Too Tall]

You are a better man than me boss. I keep an old set of those long black chemical resistant gloves around for messing with that carp...you know same ones the Mad Scientist wears in Tank McNamara ;)

What would happen if you chucked the whole wheel into a fire pit?

[dirtdigger88]

cant comment on the fire pit thing- I have pulled a hitter or two while working with the stuff- I didnt go boom

and yes there have been times where I considered new rims rather than going through all the work- but its really not that bad

oh and the goof off is very easy on the skin

Jason

[11.4]

Actually the best way to remove the glue is to turn on your barbecue grill. Put a couple bricks on the cooking surface and make sure that your temperature is between 240 and 260 degrees Fahrenheit. Then stand the wheel upright over the two bricks so about 6 inches or so of rim is exposed to the heat. Go inside, get a beer, come back, and weep.

[justinf]

sorry to bump an old thread, but perhaps it's better than starting another similar one:

Do you guys find that acetone, goof off, or alcohol works best for carbon rim glue removal?

[RIHans]

But after f-ing around with all that schite...A pro wrench hipped us to Fastack. 3M product used to glue auto trim on cars that lasts, well, until some fool bashes into your car and knocks the trim off!
Using NAPA auto trim glue now...The glue will last longer than the tire will go without a puncture...Years.

[stackie]

Gel type furniture strippers work great. They evaporate slowly, so they hang around long enough to really eat away at the glue. I put it on, and leave for a hour or two. Then wipe off. May take two or three apps for thick glue. Pretty cheap stuff. I've used the Ace branded stuff quite a bit. Really messes the skin up if you touch it. It'll burn for days. Use gloves. I add eye protection. If it hurts your skin that bad, it cannot be good in the eyes.

Jon

[justinf]

Do you use the furniture stripper with carbon rims? Reynolds, in my case.

[11.4]

Mavic and Zipp both recommend strongly against using organic-based paint strippers. I watched a shop use some on a 2004 vintage Zipp wheel that a customer had just messed up badly with glue, and it left soft spots in the resin where you could leave a fingernail impression in the plastic. Not good. People tend to forget that while carbon fiber is resistant to almost anything, wheels are built with a resin (and sometimes with several resins) that is much more susceptible to solvents. Often one resin is used in the original lay-up, then another for better finish and sometimes an extra resin on strengthening wraps (such as in tire beds on heavier-duty carbon rims). The effects of solvents, depending on which one is involved, can be temporary (softening, but then the plastic rehardens, albeit with cosmetic flaws) or permanent (never hardens again). In either case, the glue surface can be compromised.

We've tried out some aqueous-based paint strippers to see if they did better, and unfortunately we also found resin softening, at least on Mavic and Reynolds wheels. We did find that Goof-Off (TM) did work well on Zipp rims with one warning -- it won't harm the rim but it can leave cosmetic flaws and can ruin your stickers, so apply very carefully and limit its spread to the tire bed only. Zipp recommends Goof-Off. However, Mavic does not, and on Mavic rims it seemed to create a bit of softening in the resin. The lesson: Not all brands of rims are made with the same resins. We tested gasoline, Stoddard solvent, toluene, various paint brush cleaning solvents, and the like, and none was consistent. For what it's worth, spoked carbon rims seemed to tolerate the greatest range of solvents, while one-piece monocoque wheels (HED, Mavic Io, Bontrager, etc.) tolerated the fewest. This is probably indicative of different resin compositions used for the different engineering needs involved, but we don't have the resin composition data to support this.

As for other solvents, alcohol just never has worked for me. And beware of certain alcohols such as methanol, which are highly toxic. Generally if a solvent isn't a cyclic hydrocarbon it seems to do OK, and generally if it flashes off (evaporates) very rapidly, it seems to do OK. I am usually comfortable cleaning any rim with acetone if I have to. Use surgical gloves, because it absorbs through your skin and can cause major organ problems with a not-too-significant dose. And work outside (it has the same effects when inhaled, plus it's highly flammable). One advantage of acetone is that the rags can be allowed to dry and are at that point more or less non-explosive. Rags with some of the other compounds are highly susceptible to spontaneous combustion.

But before you break out the solvents, think about this: If you were good and stuck with one adhesive on your wheels, you should only have to scrape off the old glue. Our national track team never uses solvents on their track wheels (which in many cases are several years old and have seen countless tire changes). Pull the tire off, scrape the tire bed, scrape the edge of the bed where glue also tends to collect, and then just re-glue. Nothing more should be needed. If you've changed glues, shame on you. The issue of Fast Tack has been beaten to death here, on FixedGearFever.com, on WeightWeenies.com, and countless other places. Leaving aside the recent reformulation, the statistics simply don't bear out anecdotal experience. Depending on who's sponsoring a pro team, you'll see them using Conti or Vittoria Mastik One, and that's about it. Mastik One had a problem up until a year or two ago with the contents separating in the tube, which gave problems with gluing, but they've fixed that and now both glues are excellent and are used for European six-day racing, for Protour events, World track championships, and everywhere else. I've sat on enough World cup track infields and at enough European pro and amateur road events to know by now that it's only a few tri riders and newcomers that mess around with the stuff. The serious riders use what works, get on their bikes, and ride.

[weisan]

Sit up and listen...when 11.4 speaks.

Do you have all these copy and paste from somewhere?? That's a lot of typin'...not that I don't appreciate it. :D

The Helium tubular wheels now hanged up on the ceiling waiting for another winter when I become bored enough to mess around with that glueing stuff....

[Samster]

clinchers

[Needs Help]

How do you scrape old glue off the bed of the rim?

[11.4]

How do you scrape old glue off the bed of the rim?

The best tool is what's called a woodworker's scorp, and is what the World Cup track mechanics seem to prefer. It's a small loop of tool steel with a sharp edge, and a shaft that runs into a handle such that you pull on it to gouge wood out of a carving. I found mine at Woodcraft Supply (www.woodcraft.com). In fact,

http://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?familyid=1825

This one is a bit bigger than mine, but you can hunt around and find smaller ones as well. Woodcraft often has smaller specialty ones in their stores. Anyway, you just drag with it and it scrapes quite well. It'll carve muscle out of your hand as well, just so you know. Voice of experience.

You can also use a large screwdriver with a tip that's ground or filed so it's oval and has an edge -- only problem is you have to push it instead of pull it and it tends to take more work. I've snapped off the end of a small oval file in a vise and had a fairly decent edge as well. I've also gotten (also from Woodcraft) a couple deep gouges, one in the same Pfeil brand as the scorp above, and one in a larger version made for woodturning. They work as well. You typically have to reshape the woodturning gouge because it has the bevel on the outside rather than the inside. But scorps work the best. I've a collection of them, including some junky antique ones I found at junk stores (actually the best ones I've found, when it comes down to it).

[justinf]

One word: 11.4.

[Samster]

One word: 11.4.++1

[Needs Help]

Since tool steel is harder than aluminum, how do you keep the scorp from gouging the rim?

[11.4]

Since tool steel is harder than aluminum, how do you keep the scorp from gouging the rim?

You aren't taking all the glue off, just the excess so it doesn't physically get in the way of the tire. And if the scorp is held so the blade is parallel to the rim bed, you won't dig holes in the rim bed.

Anyway, have you ever tried to carve aluminum, with tool steel or anything short of a plasma cutter? You might make a few marks, but not much more.

[Needs Help]

Thanks.

[Samster]

Anyway, have you ever tried to carve aluminum, with tool steel or anything short of a plasma cutter?dremel tools are also effective... try the diamond impregnated cutting disk.

[thwart]

Thanks, 11.4!

The Forum is once again the place where I learn cool and useful stuff! I think it's time to order a scorp...

Once I have the appropriate tool to tackle those Electron rims, we're good to go. They have a rock hard, thick and irregular coat of glue on them. I just could not get motivated about using a solvent---it looked like it would take forever...

Just out of curiosity, what do folks think of the Tufo tape for gluing?

[RIHans]

"Up until a year or ago Mastic had a problem..." and so on. I've been using "the other stuff" since 1974 to stick on the tubies...Never had a tire roll off, ever, the schite never dried out. Maybe my tires don't last that long. I'm riding on them.
Oh, and by the way. Not a tri-guy, or a newbie. I get on the bike just about every day! Detected a bit of condesending attitude in there.

[Needs Help]

Oh, and by the way. Not a tri-guy, or a newbie. I get on the bike just about every day!
This guy's tests suggest you and your pro wrench are using an inferior glue:
The results show the marked difference among the adhesives. The two ‘white’ glues[ed. Continental, Vittoria Mastik One] perform better than
the ‘red’ ones. They also perform better than 3M Fast Tack. This latter glue is not designed for tubular
applications but is, nevertheless, widely used. These results are statistically significant.

Colin S. Howat Ph.D., P.E., Chemical & Petroleum Engineering, University of Kansas