us discussion shoping plastic shoping bags

[ada@prorider.or]

here we have your solution how we solve this question
bring you own bag and not .tons of plastic waist in supermarket at almost evry dollar shoping is packed in plastic bags

anyway we do shoping on the bike old and young and people with there kids and bring there own bags

well just want to show you our daily life
:banana: :banana:

[goonster]

Not shown: The unsmiling checkout lady who parsimoniously limits all physical movement to a single, repeated motion of the arm as she slams your cartons of vla to a distant corner of the chute. The cycling shoppers notwithstanding, she's the leading edge of Europe's sloth.

[Brian Smith]

Cees-
Whatever happens on the news you read about us over here, life is more diverse than they show. In urban areas where bike culture exists, no bag is no surprise. San Francisco is odd compared to the average spot in the U.S. If San Francisco makes a law about something that would seem crazy in another place, it is shown on the news for people in other places to react. Maybe it makes for a discussion somewhere else, but not much. We do not generally have safe bike routes, so the shopping by bike is for young crazy people who want to do it, and for people who don't have other choices.

[coylifut]

Cees. I like your picks of dailey life in your home country. keep em coming.

[ada@prorider.or]

Cees-
San Francisco is odd compared to the average spot in the U.S. .


i crossed usa
about 10.000 miles
from east to west north to south

almost evry store i went (walmar) always tons of plastic bags

so its not local

and in differant dessert you see lots of plastic shoping bags

and we do not see local news ,as we can watch cnn,abc ........ you name it on internet and sat TV

[Brian Smith]

almost evry store i went (walmar) always tons of plastic bags

so its not local

and in differant dessert you see lots of plastic shoping bags


Like I said and you might know, San Francisco is an odd place compared to the average spot in the U.S. Yes, no plastic shopping bags is odd. Yes, shopping by bike is odd and exists elsewhere here too. Believe me, people have heard the idea before that you can ride somewhere for shopping on a bike and/or bring your own bag. Most people do not do it, but it is not because they did not think of the idea. They usually think the idea is too crazy and risky.
I like your pictures, too.

[ada@prorider.or]

ok brian i think i misunderstoud you sorry.
got you

[bcm119]

Like Brian Smith said, there are enclaves in the US where people are really "trying". We are a long way off from being anything like the netherlands, but the lifestyle is not unheard of here.

I do my food shopping at a local co-op, which offers a discount if you walk or ride a bike there. They also donate a small amount of cash to a local organization of your choice every time you bring your own bag. It has a large bike rack outside, and has a pump (with a presta adapter!) for your tires. Its really a nice little set up for folks in my town, but it is the extreme exception in the US.

Of course, down the road you can find the stores that use 2 plastic bags for every 3 items you purchase. Even if you buy one thing, they want to bag it... :crap:

[1centaur]

Having lived in England as a boy and shopped using our own bags, let me bridge the gap between cultures just a little:

The European culture/habit/preference has been relatively fresh foods sold by specialist shops to which the food buyer goes several times a week. That this continues reflects a pace of life difference vs. the US, where people feel extremely rushed and time constrained and may shop once a week for a family of four, buying far too much to lug by bike. Carrying 10 bags into the store if shopping by car (most likely given real distances for most of the population) is certainly possible, although it will take a sea change of environmentalism to get us there. Obstacles include the perception that meats should be segregated in their own plastic bags, as should detergents/soaps, as should fresh fruits and vegetables, and in some cases ice cream, in order not to cross contaminate via smell, taste, bacteria or moisture.

Outside of food shopping, the main driver of ubiquitous plastic bags is that many people shop by convenience or instinct, not in a planned way. The shopping infrastructure of the US tends to allow for that. We would need to be trained to always have bags at the ready in our cars for when the impulse strikes us. I don't think that's impossible.

As for clerks offering plastic bags (or assuming we want them), it's a matter of training and reality - neither the clerk nor his manager wants a customer to get mad because a bag is not offered. It is quicker and more efficient to bag everything so there is no slowing of the transaction or chance to offend the customer. If clerks were trained to say, "do you have your own bag or would you like a disposable plastic bag?" they would get all sorts of grief and confusion from customers who also don't want to think or interact too much at the checkout counter. The demand will have to come from customers or government mandate.

The good thing about plastic bags, which are a relatively recent phenomenon in the US, is that they trained us to like handles, which paper bags generally lack. That puts us one step closer to having our own personality-defining shopping bags. Serotta-logo canvas carryall anyone? This is an advertiser's dream transition, so America ought to really embrace the movement.

[link]

My parents are Italian immigrants ...dad a brain drain from the late 50s. Then I married a woman from Madagascar ...plenty of opportunity to travel to France, French Isl, Italy and so forth.

Europeans are more advanced in some ...well, many regards in their daily customs.

Just my opinion. America is nice too. But, lots to improve on for sure.

[JohnS]

Why does a cetain forum member always make a point of starting threads about things he doesn't like about the U.S.?

[ada@prorider.or]

Why does a cetain forum member always make a point of starting threads about things he doesn't like about the U.S.?

you can mentioned my name its CEES

i love your nature beautiful country!!!!
we love to visit many time´s

but there things we just find it strange,
like evry one take s a car of course i understand thats your infrastucture

just give you our side from the ocean
and yes love the native americans the indians
and we just gast in their country,and yes my ancesters build new amsterdam (for you new york)

stays a beautifull country
and yellow horse is a NICE guy ( for you he live s in tuba city)

[Lifelover]

here we have your solution how we solve this question
bring you own bag and not .tons of plastic waist in supermarket at almost evry dollar shoping is packed in plastic bags

anyway we do shoping on the bike old and young and people with there kids and bring there own bags

well just want to show you our daily life
:banana: :banana:

Some people do delivery to the stores via bikes. Does that mean we should too?
http://humaniss.edgewood.edu/China---man-on-bike.jpg

[Louis]

Why does a cetain forum member always make a point of starting threads about things he doesn't like about the U.S.?

I don't have any problems with Cees (or anybody else, American or European) commenting on how the US treats natural resources and the environment in general. After all, he's right. The bottom line is that we're really making a mess of the only home we have, and on a per-person basis we are among the worst offenders. Whether it's the Escalades we drive, the one acre lawns we water and treat with chemicals, or the setting on our home thermostats, it ain't good, and our children and grandchildren will pay the price.

Yes, we are currently living pretty durn high on the hog, but I'm guessing that a generation or two from now it won't be so comfy.

Louis

[link]

Blow up your TV,
Throw away your paper,
Move to the country,
Build you a home.
Plant a little garden,
Eat a lot of peaches,
Try to find Jesus,
On your own.

John Prine

wouldn't hurt.

[Tom]

actually the plastic ones from the store are useful to reuse when we scoop the cat litter, the rest go back and get stuffed into their special bag recycling bin. they're trying a little, at least.

it is a bummer to see them flapping from the trees, though.

[Karin Kirk]

We've been using reuable cloth bags for various shopping uses for many years. We even have little mesh bags for produce. When we shop at Costco, the cashiers frequently comment at how nifty the big canvas bags are, because they hold lots o' stuff. I almost always reply that Costco should sell similar bags - seems like it might be a popular idea.

I agree with the consensus that we are unconscious about the garbage we create. By doing a little planning ahead and careful shopping, it's quite easy to really reduce one's waste.

We do end up with an unavoidable plastic bag every now and then. They are handy for cleaning up cat puke, which I just did!

[gone]

This is a great example of "combination of factors" to create a problem that's not going to go away in our lifetimes. Here are a few of the causes:


Subdivisions are designed around cul de sacs which mean that although the distance out of the subdivision might be short there are no direct routes. Therefore a trip to the store involves a longer distance.
The "corner store" of old for the most part is history, replaced by "convenience stores". The corner store stocked everything you needed to make a meal, the convenience store doesn't.
Neighborhood grocery stores used to deliver and they used their scrap boxes for deliveries. Try calling your local Wally World and placing a grocery order :)
Small stores (grocery, hardware, etc) have been replaced by mega stores that are farther way making cycling more difficult. Also, the mega stores tend to be on main thoroughfares that are not exactly cycling friendly.
Working parents tend to batch their chores so instead of going to the store daily they go once a week. For a family, this means a pretty big haul and a bike is impossible.
We're lazy. :)
It's more convenient for the stores, and probably cheaper, to use a gazillion plastic bags rather than fewer paper bags loaded more heavily.


Those are just a few, there are probably many more. It's unlikely to change in any significant way in the foreseeable future.

[93legendti]

We're comparing a country of 300 million people with another that has what, 6 million? What's the difference in size of the 2 countries?

While I am all for Cees' tips about the USA (remember his gun thread?), I can't help but wonder if the production and/or use of the carbon fiber Cees uses in his wheels helps or hurts the environment?

[ada@prorider.or]

We're comparing a country of 300 million people with another that has what, 6 million? What's the difference in size of the 2 countries?

While I am all for Cees' tips about the USA (remember his gun thread?), I can't help but wonder if the production and/or use of the carbon fiber Cees uses in his wheels helps or hurts the environment?

mmm then we take china
2 miljard people enough? they have bikes and no plastic bag problem

and yes carbon is envoirment friendly at least what we use
its degradable in nature
well take some time but still
what would the world be a differant place if they use instead steel (heavy car lots of gasoline use)
they use light carbon (very efficient low weight) hence even better kevlar

and meaby less use of their cars and use the bike instead

well saves alot of health charge´s especialy in usa
you do not have that problem is china

[link]

canvas bags rule.

to me this is a great thread because it demonstrates how unwilling people in general are to to self examine. myself included. so, of course, it takes a thread from a brother across the pond to open the door to discuss what we would rather ignore.

today, the average american woman - not to pick on women - is 5'4", 165lbs. we are a nation of excess to point of grossness. it's ugly ...at least to me it is. it is the same issue as the plastic bag, i think.

the plastic bag is, of course, just a vehicle to look at the big picture.

so, the unwillingness to self examine means that the turn-around point for correction is many miles away - in the wrong direction. thanks to cees for doing the unpopular thing and pointing out that we missed a turn way back there.

time to take my dog for a run.

I'll end with a really nice picture of the beautiful spot that I'm snow shoeing to today that was once overrun with miners. hopefully, i won't see any plastic bags waving in the willows.

thanks

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n283/gottalinkit/MayflowerGulch1.jpg

[JohnS]

mmm then we take china
2 miljard people enough? they have bikes and no plastic bag problem

and yes carbon is envoirment friendly at least what we use
its degradable in nature
well take some time but still
what would the world be a differant place if they use instead steel (heavy car lots of gasoline use)
they use light carbon (very efficient low weight) hence even better kevlar

and meaby less use of their cars and use the bike instead

well saves alot of health charge´s especialy in usa
you do not have that problem is chinaIsn't carbon fiber made from oil?
I think this whole thread is sorta funny. All you people (well, many, anyways) living in 2500-4000ft2 houses and driving Beemers, Audis, MB's etc. You are probably in the top 10% of Americans in regards to your carbon footprint.

[93legendti]

mmm then we take china
2 miljard people enough? they have bikes and no plastic bag problem

and yes carbon is envoirment friendly at least what we use
its degradable in nature
well take some time but still
what would the world be a differant place if they use instead steel (heavy car lots of gasoline use)
they use light carbon (very efficient low weight) hence even better kevlar

and meaby less use of their cars and use the bike instead

well saves alot of health charge´s especialy in usa
you do not have that problem is china

Cees, sorry if I came off too harsh. I guess my point, in a obtuse way, was the issue is much more complicated than stop using all plastic bags ASAP. What are the costs of using paper, cloth or other materials--both energy costs, shipping costs, environmental costs, etc.? This is one of those things that sounds good on paper, but needs to be studied. Are we going to outlaw paper bags at the same time? I prefer not to cut down more trees to make up the need for paper bags. If we are dictating that only cloth bags can be used, then my family will need 20 because that's how many we needed for this a.m.'s grocery run. I wonder what the environmental costs for cloth bags are?

This week, I am finalizing the process of purchasing 1000 trees to plant, which, imho, will do more for the environment than banning plastic bags.

[Big Dan]

We (the US of A) can do better........

:)

[ada@prorider.or]

Isn't carbon fiber made from oil?

well some are others are not

what we use is not made off oil

[ada@prorider.or]

[QUOTE=93legendti What are the costs of using paper, cloth or other materials--both energy costs, shipping costs, environmental costs, etc.? .[/QUOTE]

not much if your own city plant production trees
or vlas that a plant where they make paper bags from
and make bags that are extremly strong hence even water tight


hence they even make clothing of Stinging Nettle
and its becoming very popular here

[Karin Kirk]

If we are dictating that only cloth bags can be used, then my family will need 20 because that's how many we needed for this a.m.'s grocery run. I wonder what the environmental costs for cloth bags are?


It would only depend on how many times you use the cloth bags, and hence how many plastic or paper bags a canvas bag would replace. I don't know the number off the top of my head, but obviously, at some point, the impact of one canvas bag would be less than many plastic/paper bags. I doubt you'd really need 20 because a canvas sack holds 2-3 times as much as a typical grocery bag. The bonus is you don't have to make so many trips back and forth to the car to unload them all!

Nice work on the 1000 trees!

[93legendti]

It would only depend on how many times you use the cloth bags, and hence how many plastic or paper bags a canvas bag would replace. I don't know the number off the top of my head, but obviously, at some point, the impact of one canvas bag would be less than many plastic/paper bags. I doubt you'd really need 20 because a canvas sack holds 2-3 times as much as a typical grocery bag. The bonus is you don't have to make so many trips back and forth to the car to unload them all!

Nice work on the 1000 trees!
Thanks...

The problem with a fewer number of bags is carrying them, since they will be heavier. Mike Walden always said it is easier to carry a lot of light bags than a few heavy bags...especially when I have my 4 year old and 1 year old with me. :)

I need to start a cloth bag company asap!

[JohnS]

Plastic bags are so little part of the equation, re garbage. My wife and I often get our groceries in plastic bags but we recycle our plastic, cardboard and newspapers. Most weeks, our total garbage output is one tall kitchen bag. That's "kitchen bag", not garbage bag!

[Karin Kirk]

Thanks...

The problem with a fewer number of bags is carrying them, since they will be heavier.

True enough, especially when heavily loaded with beer. Some of our bags have shoulder straps, which is great for the heavy loads.

And John S. is right too. What's in the bags is likely to produce a lot more garbage than the bags themselves.

So, if you really want to entertain yourself while thinking about your own garbage production, read on. I conduct a large project on environmental decision-making in my environmental geology courses. Each student gets the opportunity to challenge themselves to reduce their environmental footprint in a variety of ways. One of the choices is to reduce your garbage output by 100%. Yes, that's 100%. Which means zero garbage. Recycling is allowed, reusing is allowed, composting is allowed, but nothing can go to the landfill. It is a brilliant thing to watch students go from typical Americans to incredibly aware consumers. The cool thing is that in the beginning students suddenly realize how garbage is all around them and it's seemingly unavoidable. But then, they learn that the way to avoid garbage is to plan ahead. Instead of buying an over-packaged, single-serving meal, they buy in bulk. Instead of a to-go cup, they use a travel mug or buy something in a recyclable bottle. They learn to think about their garbage implications before they make their purchases, and that is the key!

I saw a student about a year after she completed the project. She was in the student union eating a snack out of a used yogurt container that she was re-using like a tupperware container. She was so proud to show me that a year later, she was still taking steps to avoid waste. I was proud too! :)

[Louis]

Around here we have once a week trash pickup, and I'm amazed by the mountains of stuff people have out by the curb. Some areas have twice a week pickup! (second day is optional and extra $)

I try to recycle as much as possible, do the compost barrel thing (without a whole of of success, I must say) and would gladly go to once a month pickup. Somehow, I don't think that would work for 99% of American households ...

Louis

[1happygirl]

I think recycling is great! I try to do some myself, however, in most cities it is usually made very cumbersome and time consuming. The reality is that however much a few of us (or a lot of us) individuals do, it really won't make much of an impact (come on, a few cans, papers, sacks) compared to what industry uses. The production forces need to come up with better manufacturing techniques and recycling from manufacturing and industry. Just my thoughts.

[shoe]

man i don't know what you guys see .. but being an american i see atleast six to eight good parking spots for some oversized suv's...plus they are really close to the store since it is usually the people with the shortest legs that drive such big cars...i mean come on....couldn't they just put the bike rack out back.....plus what is the point of carrying your own bags after spending all that money on that really light wheel set...on your bike....there is no perfect place but it is always nice to be reminded of different ways of living....and to be honest canvas bags don't really weigh that much...or plastic for that matter . never quite got why people don't reuse bags here much....seems like there is more awareness coming around though.....dave....ps ....i use my sarcasm in hippocracy by the way since i do own a compact suv....dave

[William]

Of course, down the road you can find the stores that use 2 plastic bags for every 3 items you purchase. Even if you buy one thing, they want to bag it... :crap:

Safeway or Winco/Cub Foods?





William ;)

[sspielman]

mmm then we take china
2 miljard people enough? they have bikes and no plastic bag problem

and yes carbon is envoirment friendly at least what we use
its degradable in nature
well take some time but still
what would the world be a differant place if they use instead steel (heavy car lots of gasoline use)
they use light carbon (very efficient low weight) hence even better kevlar

and meaby less use of their cars and use the bike instead

well saves alot of health charge´s especialy in usa
you do not have that problem is china


Please tell me that you are not holding up China as an example of environmental responsibility...
As in Western Europe, we in the United States have seen fit to allow our goverment to regulate every minute aspect of our lives...including regulations that -at least on the surface- are supposed to protect the environment. One of the results of this over-regulation is that industrial production is leaving (has left) the country at an unprecedented rate (this, combined with abject greed and a complete lack of loyalty to the workers who created the companies' wealth in the first place).....Yet the demand for products still increases, so it has to supplied from elsewhere. That unregulated elsewhere is primarily China.....where pollution is unregulated and unchecked. At last check, we share a common atmosphere, water resources, etc.....In other words, we in the Western world have not only exported our industrial capacity, but in so doing, have also exported our environmental policy (not to mention our human rights ethos). Still, we have idiot politicians essentially declaring "environmentalism'" as their religion... and promising regulations to drastically curtail energy consumption (and its resulting pollution) AS IF WE ARE NOT ALL PART OF THE SAME PLANET!!! RRRRRING! Wake up call!

[JohnS]

Please tell me that you are not holding up China as an example of environmental responsibility...
!
You have to realize that Cees perceives the US as being the center of everything evil. He's one of those bookworm-all brains-no common sense type of person...very intelligent in one area, but pretty naive in all others!

[93legendti]

not much if your own city plant production trees
or vlas that a plant where they make paper bags from
and make bags that are extremly strong hence even water tight


hence they even make clothing of Stinging Nettle
and its becoming very popular here

Who is paying for this Cees?

[Kevan]

Please tell me that you are not holding up China as an example of environmental responsibility...
As in Western Europe, we in the United States have seen fit to allow our goverment to regulate every minute aspect of our lives...including regulations that -at least on the surface- are supposed to protect the environment. One of the results of this over-regulation is that industrial production is leaving (has left) the country at an unprecedented rate (this, combined with abject greed and a complete lack of loyalty to the workers who created the companies' wealth in the first place).....Yet the demand for products still increases, so it has to supplied from elsewhere. That unregulated elsewhere is primarily China.....where pollution is unregulated and unchecked. At last check, we share a common atmosphere, water resources, etc.....In other words, we in the Western world have not only exported our industrial capacity, but in so doing, have also exported our environmental policy (not to mention our human rights ethos). Still, we have idiot politicians essentially declaring "environmentalism'" as their religion... and promising regulations to drastically curtail energy consumption (and its resulting pollution) AS IF WE ARE NOT ALL PART OF THE SAME PLANET!!! RRRRRING! Wake up call!


This statement is SO spot on. Countries like China and India often do our dirty work, and do so cheaper than other countries because of their lax restrictions. Some of the stuff going on ain't pretty.

[gdw]

I'm with Cees, plastic bags suck. They are too small to fit a rifle or shotgun in and always seem to tear at inopportune times. It's really embarrassing to have a bag break and spill your pistol and cartridges all over the bank floor.

[ss-jimbo]

I've never bought a canvas bag for shopping, but fortunately every conference I've been to gives them away (I'm a comm. college math prof), so I've gotten several that way. My wife has a Nicaraguan bag called a Canasta. Actually it is made of plastic string woven. It's huge, but very strong. Last summer we went to Kenya, and while there bought a woven bag called a kiondoo. We take these with us when we go shopping and get tons of comments. We love it.

As far as plastic bags go, one person said they take them back to the store to recycle. Why not take the extra step and take them inside and reuse them? We've done that sometimes in the past when we didn't have so many permabags, and it works great.

We still get some bags, we forget to bring ours with us and pick something up on the way home from work. But we use those for our kitchen garbage, dog poop, etc.

The reason the baggers put so few things in the plastic bags is the quality has decreased. They've complained about it to me when I bring in bags. It doesn't take much to tear the grocery bags.

I would love to ride to the store more, but we at least try to combine our trips (we go to the natural foods coop and the regular grocery store). We probably had more than 100 lbs. of groceries last night. That would've been hard on the bike. Maybe I'll get an ExtraCycle.

jimbo

[Kevan]

to return some cd's I borrowed. Stuffed them in the big VO bag, switched the pedals to mks (sneakers), and took off sans helmet, wearing jeans and rolled up cuff.

Great library, lousy bike rack. Barely fits a 700 sized wheel and my tires, even with the 32's, they were too skinny to keep the bike upright in the stand. Too bad...the placement of the rack is perfect, under the eve and right near the front door ta boot.

Time to talk to the chief librarian. Their rack is outdated, designed for the mtb and kiddy-bike generations.

[BBB]

You have to realize that Cees perceives the US as being the center of everything evil.

It is isn't it...?

A bike shop here in Melbourne has a card advertising its shop and it is a picture of graffiti on a suburban fence stating: "Car = CO2 Ride, Fat ***, Ride." Clever.

[Louis]

You have to realize that Cees perceives the US as being the center of everything evil. He's one of those bookworm-all brains-no common sense type of person...very intelligent in one area, but pretty naive in all others!

Whereas Americans (especially those who vote the Right way) are can-do, down-to-earth types who can do no wrong and are the center of everything good in the world, correct?

Yeah, I guess it's all our environmental regulations that have driven our automotive business overseas. Just look at those Shimano-riding Japanese. They're despoiling their country big time. Japan is just a cesspool of industrial waste. That's surely why over the last thirty years they've kicked Detroit's @ss all over the map...

[michael white]

I shopped tonight and saved my bags because of this thread.. I'll reuse them.

[JohnS]

Whereas Americans (especially those who vote the Right way) are can-do, down-to-earth types who can do no wrong and are the center of everything good in the world, correct?

Yeah, I guess it's all our environmental regulations that have driven our automotive business overseas. Just look at those Shimano-riding Japanese. They're despoiling their country big time. Japan is just a cesspool of industrial waste. That's surely why over the last thirty years they've kicked Detroit's @ss all over the map...
Obviously, you haven't read someof hiw other posts on guns, etc. I never mentioned politics.

[ss-jimbo]

True enough, especially when heavily loaded with beer. Some of our bags have shoulder straps, which is great for the heavy loads.

And John S. is right too. What's in the bags is likely to produce a lot more garbage than the bags themselves.

So, if you really want to entertain yourself while thinking about your own garbage production, read on. I conduct a large project on environmental decision-making in my environmental geology courses. Each student gets the opportunity to challenge themselves to reduce their environmental footprint in a variety of ways. One of the choices is to reduce your garbage output by 100%. Yes, that's 100%. Which means zero garbage. Recycling is allowed, reusing is allowed, composting is allowed, but nothing can go to the landfill. It is a brilliant thing to watch students go from typical Americans to incredibly aware consumers. The cool thing is that in the beginning students suddenly realize how garbage is all around them and it's seemingly unavoidable. But then, they learn that the way to avoid garbage is to plan ahead. Instead of buying an over-packaged, single-serving meal, they buy in bulk. Instead of a to-go cup, they use a travel mug or buy something in a recyclable bottle. They learn to think about their garbage implications before they make their purchases, and that is the key!

I saw a student about a year after she completed the project. She was in the student union eating a snack out of a used yogurt container that she was re-using like a tupperware container. She was so proud to show me that a year later, she was still taking steps to avoid waste. I was proud too! :)

This is interesting, but it seems the only way to do this is to go vegetarian. You can recycle egg cartons and milk jugs (though not the lids, so there goes any beverage in a non-aluminum container). I don't know how you would buy meat without have some container to dispose, plastic, at least. Maybe you can compost the wax paper that butchers use, but I've never had fish that wasn't in plastic (wash and recycle back at the store maybe?). Also you can't compost left over meat things, like chicken bones and fat, and I wouldn't feed chicken bones to my dogs.

I love the idea, but the practicalities are enormous. I'd love to hear how your students deal with some of these issues.

[93legendti]

This is interesting, but it seems the only way to do this is to go vegetarian. You can recycle egg cartons and milk jugs (though not the lids, so there goes any beverage in a non-aluminum container). I don't know how you would buy meat without have some container to dispose, plastic, at least. Maybe you can compost the wax paper that butchers use, but I've never had fish that wasn't in plastic (wash and recycle back at the store maybe?). Also you can't compost left over meat things, like chicken bones and fat, and I wouldn't feed chicken bones to my dogs.

I love the idea, but the practicalities are enormous. I'd love to hear how your students deal with some of these issues.


Ah, there is the rub...what's next after plastic shopping bags? Besides the fact they are so thin and flimsy and I am unaware exactly how envionmentally unfriendly they are (but they sure work nice for my son's diapers) plastic is everywhere. And it works. I noticed at the allergist yesterday the injection was given with a plastic syringe which was immediately thrown away--the nerve! They must throw away hundreds EVERY week. What about the baby bottles we use? Anyone want to buy used baby bottles? We couldn't take glass bottles on the plane when we flew last month- so glass is out. No more yo-yo's, frisbees, hula hoops, the list is endless. Banning plastic shopping bags sounds nice, but really it can't be more than a pin prick sized drop in the bucket.

[JohnS]

Ah, there is the rub...what's next after plastic shopping bags? Besides the fact they are so thin and flimsy and I am unaware exactly how envionmentally unfriendly they are (but they sure work nice for my son's diapers) plastic is everywhere. And it works. I noticed at the allergist yesterday the injection was given with a plastic syringe which was immediately thrown away--the nerve! They must throw away hundreds EVERY week. What about the baby bottles we use? Anyone want to buy used baby bottles? We couldn't take glass bottles on the plane when we flew last month- so glass is out. No more yo-yo's, frisbees, hula hoops, the list is endless. Banning plastic shopping bags sounds nice, but really it can't be more than a pin prick sized drop in the bucket.
There you go, using common sense again! I'm getting sick of agreeing with you! :) It's not about doing something worthwhile, it's about "making a statement". Cees rags about us ugly Americans (again), so everyone starts beating their breasts in consternation... :crap:

[Karin Kirk]

This is interesting, but it seems the only way to do this is to go vegetarian. You can recycle egg cartons and milk jugs (though not the lids, so there goes any beverage in a non-aluminum container). I don't know how you would buy meat without have some container to dispose, plastic, at least. Maybe you can compost the wax paper that butchers use, but I've never had fish that wasn't in plastic (wash and recycle back at the store maybe?). Also you can't compost left over meat things, like chicken bones and fat, and I wouldn't feed chicken bones to my dogs.

I love the idea, but the practicalities are enormous. I'd love to hear how your students deal with some of these issues.

You are spot on Jimbo! No coincidence, eating a vegetarian diet is part of the project too. Those two categories are sort of designed to go hand-in-hand.

Keep in mind we're talking about college students here. Some of them eat in the dining hall which greatly simplifies their job of not producing garbage. It's still a challenge for them though. I also teach the project in a distance learning course where the students are grown-ups so the project is a wholly different experience for them.

Also, the project goal is 100% garbage reduction. I think most students (me included) accomplish that only on selected days when you are ultra-careful. Typically the reduction is closer to 80-90% (i.e. the lid of a recyclable container), and that is still pretty darned good.

The ways the students deal with the challenges of the project are completely amazing. They come up with very clever ways around the pitfalls of a wasteful lifestyle. They keep track of every day of their project in a journal, and reading the journals is one of the most inspirational things I've ever done. It shows that average people can be deeply commited, can be highly flexible, and can make significant improvements in their environmental footprint.

[michael white]

You go, Karin!

I live in a lovely but rapidly developing part of the east coast. We have giant landfills and very little public land around here. The situation's not getting better. I like nature, and I see less of it every year.

We need more like you.

best,
michael

[zeroking17]

<snip> Banning plastic shopping bags sounds nice, but really it can't be more than a pin prick sized drop in the bucket.

The act of banning plastic shopping bags is not, by itself, the point. I agree with you that in purely material terms it will have minimal overall impact.

However, in conceptual terms it's potentially quite powerful. If it can change a mindset, first in a few, then in a multitude, it can make a real difference. Once the argument is framed in these terms, futility becomes hope.

[Karin Kirk]

Thanks Michael!

Here's some more info about the lifestyle project, which will answer more of Jimbo's questions.
Complete description of the project (this is written for teachers and is not quite done yet, but it still gives all the info)
http://serc.carleton.edu/dev/introgeo/enviroprojects/lifestyle.html

Also, here's a paper that describes the project:
http://www.nagt.org/nagt/jge/abstracts/nov03.html#v51p496
This paper has some quotes from students' journals, which give you a taste for what they are capable of.

[JohnS]

However, in conceptual terms it's potentially quite powerful. If it can change a mindset, first in a few, then in a multitude, it can make a real difference. Once the argument is framed in these terms, futility becomes hope.
Bull*****. The production of solid waste is nowhere near as important than other pollution. How many here have cars that get at least 30mpg? How many have larger houses than they need? Large houses=more trees cut down for construction + larger heating/cooling costs (read:fossil fuel). Ecology, like charity, begins at home. Don't be criticizing corporations if you're not doing your part!

[93legendti]

[QUOTE=JohnS]There you go, using common sense again! I'm getting sick of agreeing with you! :) It's not about doing something worthwhile, it's about "making a statement". Cees rags about us ugly Americans (again), so everyone starts beating their breasts in consternation... :crap:[/QUOTE

As I sit here eating my Greek Fage Yogurt, out of the plastic container it came in, all I can say is: I agree with you.:)

[Louis]

How many here have cars that get at least 30mpg? How many have larger houses than they need? Large houses=more trees cut down for construction + larger heating/cooling costs (read:fossil fuel). Ecology, like charity, begins at home. Don't be criticizing corporations if you're not doing your part!

I agree.

We all leave some footprint on the Earth, some larger than others. I try to minimize mine in as many ways as I can, (vegetarian, 35 mpg car, set the thermostat at 58* in winter, recycle, turn off the water in shower when I soap up, avoid chemicals in the garden, etc.). I could do more, but draw the line where it feels comfortable for me.

[93legendti]

The act of banning plastic shopping bags is not, by itself, the point. I agree with you that in purely material terms it will have minimal overall impact.

However, in conceptual terms it's potentially quite powerful. If it can change a mindset, first in a few, then in a multitude, it can make a real difference. Once the argument is framed in these terms, futility becomes hope.

Yes, but the flip side is people may think it is so minimally effective in the overall scheme as to be a waste of time and effort. Or, wonder if this seemingly innocent gesture is the start of a broader attack on our economy.

FWIW, I would LOVE for the USA to get off Mideast oil and switch to Ethanol like Brazil. To me this is a real issue, with real possibilities. I have no clue why this Congress doesn't spend a day or 2 on this issue.

[zeroking17]

Bull*****. The production of solid waste is nowhere near as important than other pollution. How many here have cars that get at least 30mpg? How many have larger houses than they need? Large houses=more trees cut down for construction + larger heating/cooling costs (read:fossil fuel). Ecology, like charity, begins at home. Don't be criticizing corporations if you're not doing your part!


Your ability to misunderstand my point is impressive.

[sspielman]

Okay...here is the environmental dilemma that we face on this planet: We have a burgeoning population that is consuming resources at an ever increasing rate...and the waste products from this consumption are polluting the planet more all the time. Additionally, the more affluent members of society are WAY disproportionally contributing to the problem. Now...how do we solve the problem? Unfortunately, the solutions to the problem have to be worked out through the political process. This leaves us in a real lurch...because today, we have a Ruling Elite Class who serve at the pleasure of the Elite...both classes of which live completely above the rule. So, all of the regulations will be set up for you and I to make huge sacrifices so that the Elites will be able to maintain the lifestyle to which they have become accustomed. So once again the common denominator is abject greed. We will do nothing meaningful to solve our problems without having citizens with a genuine stake in the decision making process....and THAT won't occur without a major upheavel.

[Karin Kirk]

Bull*****. The production of solid waste is nowhere near as important than other pollution. How many here have cars that get at least 30mpg? How many have larger houses than they need? Large houses=more trees cut down for construction + larger heating/cooling costs (read:fossil fuel). Ecology, like charity, begins at home. Don't be criticizing corporations if you're not doing your part!

I'm confused? Where did Zeroking criticize corporations?
You are both right (imho). Zeroking is right that you gotta start somewhere, and that even an individual effort is worthwhile.

JohnS is right in that there are all too many places to start. Anyone can do better. It would be nice if everyone tried, such as Louis' nice examples.

[JohnS]

Your ability to misunderstand my point is impressive.
No, I understood your point exactly. It's the ole "one step for A man, one giant leap for mankind" approach. But, like my buddy 93Legendti states, it's pointless. Saving the planet isn't about making statements, it's about doing something substantial.

[DWF]

Your ability to misunderstand my point is impressive.
Yes. Where would we start? There is just so much plastic out there that we should just throw our hands in the air and declare defeat already!

[zeroking17]

Yes, but the flip side is people may think it is so minimally effective in the overall scheme as to be a waste of time and effort. Or, wonder if this seemingly innocent gesture is the start of a broader attack on our economy.

<snip>

Portraying an attempt to ban plastic shopping bags as a "seemingly innocent gesture [that] is the start of a broader attack on our economy" leaves me speechless. Next step, fluoridating the plastic bags.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . FWIW, I would LOVE for the USA to get off Mideast oil and switch to Ethanol like Brazil. To me this is a real issue, with real possibilities. I have no clue why this Congress doesn't spend a day or 2 on this issue.

Unfortunately it's not as simple as that. I went hiking a few years ago with a guy who showed up at the trailhead in his old diesel Mercedes wagon converted to run on recycled vegetable oil. He had a hose running from a hot water heater tank in the back seat to the engine compartment. He got his "fuel" from local restaurants, so the whole car smelled of french fries or fried rice or wherever he had gotten his last "fill-up." Quite comical . . . but I digress.

Anyway, this guy went on and on and ON about how if only everyone would switch over to this recycled vegetable oil or ethanol to fuel their cars, then everything would be wonderful. He was not particularly receptive when I pointed out that in order to raise enough corn to power EVERYONE'S car, you would very probably need to raise corn on every acre on the surface of the earth--and then some.

And as it turns out, we could never do that anyway. We have run multiple stories in our paper lately about how, because of the demand for corn for ethanol production, the price of corn is going through the roof. This is sending the rpice of beef through the roof because all the cattle are fed on corn. And it's creating problems in the whole agriculture industry as more farmers are trying to plant corn--instead of other stuff--to capitalize on the price jump.

It just ain't as simple as you think. Or George Bush thinks . . .

BBD

[JohnS]

The way I look at it, everyone is looking for means to be more earth-friendly while continueing their current lifestyle. That's not going to happen, folks. We can't grow enough corn for ethanol if we drive SUV's getting 16mpg. Oil is NOT going to last as long as we keep building McMansions. We (and I mean everyone) is going to have to downsize their lifestyle.

[Karin Kirk]

There is just so much plastic out there that we should just throw our hands in the air and declare defeat already!

Better yet. Let's throw our fluoridated plastic bags in the air, then declare defeat.

Ironically, I just got back inside from bringing out the garbage. ;)

Seriously, there are plenty of examples where collective actions do make a substantial dent in environmental problems. Does it cure the entire planet? Of course not. Is it still worth it? I sure as heck think so.

[93legendti]

Portraying an attempt to ban plastic shopping bags as a "seemingly innocent gesture [that] is the start of a broader attack on our economy" leaves me speechless. Next step, fluoridating the plastic bags.

Well, is there a next step to ban other things made from plastic after plastic bags? If no, great--allthough what the ban on plastic bags and plastic bags only does is lost on me as far as any REAL effect. If yes, then where is the line drawn?

Milk, water and juice containers, food containers, garbage cans, parts of cars, packaging for widgets, medical devices, pill and vitamin bottles, packing materials for shipping widgets, the tops of UPS trucks, surgical and medical grade plastic items, wiffle balls and bats, shuttlecocks, phones, answering machines, zip ties, water bottles for bicycle use, tire levers, guitar pics and tuning keys, PC monitors, lap tops, the bottle my Prolink lube comes in, parts of my cycling shoes, sunglasses, etc. etc. etc.

[DWF]

Better yet. Let's throw our fluoridated plastic bags in the air, then declare defeat.

Ironically, I just got back inside from bringing out the garbage. ;)

Seriously, there are plenty of examples where collective actions do make a substantial dent in environmental problems. Does it cure the entire planet? Of course not. Is it still worth it? I sure as heck think so.
I was being facetious. Sigh. If only more people understood my humor, I could have a TV show on Comedy Central.

[JohnS]

How many here recycle their newspapers and magazines? Now there's something which can make a substantial dent in landfills, unlike plastic bags.

PS-- I bet Cees is laughing his azz off with the argument he started... :butt:

[zap]

snipped

...and switch to Ethanol like Brazil. To me this is a real issue, with real possibilities. I have no clue why this Congress doesn't spend a day or 2 on this issue.

Too date, ethanol in the US is corn based and yields less than Brazil's sugar cane production. Production in the US requires quite a bit of fossil fuel and ethanol plants sucks up a lot of water. We'll see if future developments such as using switch grass yields any improvement. Distribution is a problem as well. To top it all of, ethanol is roughly 25% less fuel efficient than gasoline.

I see diesel biofuel as the better solution today. Cleaner emissions technology is in the works and diesel is roughly 35% more efficient than gasoline power.

[sspielman]

I was being facetious. Sigh. If only more people understood my humor, I could have a TV show on Comedy Central.
At least you can still sell your ephemera on Ebay......

[Karin Kirk]

Well, is there a next step to ban other things made from plastic after plastic bags? If no, great--allthough what the ban on plastic bags and plastic bags only does is lost on me as far as any REAL effect. If yes, then where is the line drawn?



The point of the proposed ban on plastic bags is not due to the use of plastic, it's because of the bags' tendancy to blow away and litter the landscape.

I'm not supporting it one way or another, but that is the stated reason for the ban.

[93legendti]

Unfortunately it's not as simple as that. I went hiking a few years ago with a guy who showed up at the trailhead in his old diesel Mercedes wagon converted to run on recycled vegetable oil. He had a hose running from a hot water heater tank in the back seat to the engine compartment. He got his "fuel" from local restaurants, so the whole car smelled of french fries or fried rice or wherever he had gotten his last "fill-up." Quite comical . . . but I digress.

Anyway, this guy went on and on and ON about how if only everyone would switch over to this recycled vegetable oil or ethanol to fuel their cars, then everything would be wonderful. He was not particularly receptive when I pointed out that in order to raise enough corn to power EVERYONE'S car, you would very probably need to raise corn on every acre on the surface of the earth--and then some.

And as it turns out, we could never do that anyway. We have run multiple stories in our paper lately about how, because of the demand for corn for ethanol production, the price of corn is going through the roof. This is sending the rpice of beef through the roof because all the cattle are fed on corn. And it's creating problems in the whole agriculture industry as more farmers are trying to plant corn--instead of other stuff--to capitalize on the price jump.

It just ain't as simple as you think. Or George Bush thinks . . .

BBD
I'm no expert, but how does Brazil do it?

As far as problems in the agriculture industry, that's my point. There are no free lunches. For every change we make, there are transactional costs which affect people in an unintended way. Some people think there is a point of dimishing returns, other seem not to worry about cost at all. Ban plastic bags and what about the trees and costs of cloth bags??

[93legendti]

The point of the proposed ban on plastic bags is not due to the use of plastic, it's because of the bags' tendancy to blow away and litter the landscape.

I'm not supporting it one way or another, but that is the stated reason for the ban.

Gotcha. Gee, I thought they were worried about the environment!

[Karin Kirk]

I was being facetious. Sigh.

Yes, I know. So was I!
:)

[zeroking17]

The way I look at it, everyone is looking for means to be more earth-friendly while continueing their current lifestyle. That's not going to happen, folks. We can't grow enough corn for ethanol if we drive SUV's getting 16mpg. Oil is NOT going to last as long as we keep building McMansions. We (and I mean everyone) is going to have to downsize their lifestyle.

I agree with the need to downsize lifestyles. However, this induces a vapor lock in the USA economy, which is driven by the two-cycle engine of consume-discard, consume-discard, consume-discard. You're making a truly revolutionary suggestion.

And by "everyone," I assume that you're talking just about, what?, the upper 15% of the world population, those that can "afford" to downsize. If you're already living in a shack, hungry and tired, you don't want to hear a gaggle of fat cats hectoring you to "downsize."

[JohnS]

I
And by "everyone," I assume that you're talking just about, what?, the upper 15% of the world population, those that can "afford" to downsize. If you're already living in a shack, hungry and tired, you don't want to hear a gaggle of fat cats hectoring you to "downsize."
Yeah, us forumites...

[bcm119]

Ah, there is the rub...what's next after plastic shopping bags? Besides the fact they are so thin and flimsy and I am unaware exactly how envionmentally unfriendly they are (but they sure work nice for my son's diapers) plastic is everywhere. And it works. I noticed at the allergist yesterday the injection was given with a plastic syringe which was immediately thrown away--the nerve! They must throw away hundreds EVERY week. What about the baby bottles we use? Anyone want to buy used baby bottles? We couldn't take glass bottles on the plane when we flew last month- so glass is out. No more yo-yo's, frisbees, hula hoops, the list is endless. Banning plastic shopping bags sounds nice, but really it can't be more than a pin prick sized drop in the bucket.
All this is true. But as JohnS said, it starts at home. The logic used above is the main reason most people don't even try to reduce their footprint at home. They feel, and rightly so, that their actions are trivial, just a drop in the bucket, and inconvenient to them. If everyone did a few things differently, like Louis is doing, maybe there would be a small difference. Nothing very significant on a global scale, but we'd see small changes. Since its a volunteer deal, personally I doubt the majority of the populace will ever get on board. Its a personal decision and one thats affected by many things- such as JohnS' indignation at those who are simply making a do-gooder statement- so it gets complicated, socially, logistically, economically.

I would wager that I have a bottom 10th percentile carbon footprint amongst non-urban dwellers. That makes me feel good, but I have no misconceptions about changing anything. I have no confidence that the populace will adapt a more sustainable lifestyle in the near future. Maybe I'm pessimistic, but if it doesn't make economic sense or increase convenience, Americans won't do it, period. So what do we do? All the pointing fingers and b;itching about the do-gooders and the environmentalists and the republicans and the tree huggers and the corporations doesn't get us anywhere.

How do we reduce the overall output of pollution in the US? Support scientific research. Vote for people who believe in science and education. The only solution I see is through technology-- make sustainable energy sources economically viable; create less noxious materials that are economically viable. Until that happens, I don't foresee any real change in terms of pollution rates.

[gdw]

It's good that Brazil is putting all the land they cleared by cutting down the rainforest to good use...... ;)

[JohnS]

So, what's everyone think of nuclear energy? :)

[Karin Kirk]

Nice post, bcm!
Very thoughtful. I'd vote for you.
:)

[sspielman]

It's good that Brazil is putting all the land they cleared by cutting down the rainforest to good use...... ;)
Thanks for that. I was trying to hold back......within this thread, first China and then Brazil have been held up as examples of environmental rsponsibility.

[sspielman]

So, what's everyone think of nuclear energy? :)

Ahh...the nuclear option. In discussions of the environment and sustainable energy, that topic is as much off the table as scientific debate on the whole global warming "issue"

[gdw]

I couldn't resist. Care to educate the masses on the drawbacks of diesel biofuel?

[BumbleBeeDave]

How many here recycle their newspapers and magazines? Now there's something which can make a substantial dent in landfills, unlike plastic bags.

PS-- I bet Cees is laughing his azz off with the argument he started... :butt:


He DOES seem to have disappeared, eh? :rolleyes:

BBD

[grey poupon]

...

[mosca]

He DOES seem to have disappeared, eh? :rolleyes:

BBDHe's put us on the path of righteousness. His work is done.

[ss-jimbo]

Ah, there is the rub...what's next after plastic shopping bags? Besides the fact they are so thin and flimsy and I am unaware exactly how envionmentally unfriendly they are (but they sure work nice for my son's diapers) plastic is everywhere. And it works. I noticed at the allergist yesterday the injection was given with a plastic syringe which was immediately thrown away--the nerve! They must throw away hundreds EVERY week. What about the baby bottles we use? Anyone want to buy used baby bottles? We couldn't take glass bottles on the plane when we flew last month- so glass is out. No more yo-yo's, frisbees, hula hoops, the list is endless. Banning plastic shopping bags sounds nice, but really it can't be more than a pin prick sized drop in the bucket.

Everything you mentioned is reusable except the syringe (which actually could be cleaned in an autoclave). If a product is used multiple times that reduces the environmental impact of its creation.

Plastic in and of itself isn't evil, but creating something from plastic that is designed to be thrown away after a single use is shortsighted.

[gdw]

Hopefully Cees is back in the shop making plastic wheels for Jan to use in this years tour.......

[ada@prorider.or]

Hopefully Cees is back in the shop making plastic wheels for Jan to use in this years tour.......
its really sad to see that he still denies all this

plastic b...y bag meaby then, i am speecless

[shralp]

i see the landfill with some frequency. i think it should be a mandatory field trip.

economic status is not proportional to how much you waste.

thoughtless consumption creates big waste. laziness creates big waste. defeatist attitudes create big waste. lack of awareness creates big waste. and so on.

there's really something to that "reduce, reuse, recycle" approach. it's fun. saves you money, too. and i'm rich, i think?

i live pretty small, but i do it for me. if i can encourage someone to take some similar steps, great. you never know what sort of ripple effect you are having.

buy quality and take care of your things. they should serve you a long time.

people should consider the length of the trip their purchases make, physically and resource-wise. all purchases, large or small. how long will that item be used?


one quick example:

not sure if the popularity of bottled water is the same nation wide but
i see folks buying case after case after case of pint bottles of water because it's convenient.

well, somebody had to produce it, create bottles, package it, truck it to the retailer, etc.

then consumers have to lug it, buy it, drive it home, store it, dispose of it along w/packaging (hopefully recycle)....

boy, you want to talk about convenience? buy a filter if your tap water sucks and fill a container you already have at the kitchen sink.

[SManning]

I've been considering making the leap from disposable to washable diapers. Our trash output used to be pretty decent, but once my daughter was born 10 months ago, our trash has increased considerably. My main drawback to using washable diapers has been rinsing and washing the poopy ones. There are days where she can really, really poop. I've been looking at a diaper called the Gdiaper. The absorbent liner is disposable, but it's flushable and biodegradable. The outer liner then gets washed. Due to my research, I've been reading a discussion board and one of the posters mentioned biobags. I guess they're plastic bags that are bio-degradeable. Kind of interesting...

I do reuse my plastic bags, the daycare that my daughter attends uses them to send home wet and poopy clothing. This thread has inspired me to start using the canvas bags instead.

[JohnS]

He's put us on the path of righteousness. I believe the correct term is "self-righteousness".

[dirtdigger88]

and now a word from George Carlin

We're so self-important. So self-important. Everybody's going to save something now. "Save the trees, save the bees, save the whales, save those snails." And the greatest arrogance of all: save the planet. What? Are these ****ing people kidding me? Save the planet, we don't even know how to take care of ourselves yet. We haven't learned how to care for one another, we're gonna save the ****ing planet?

I'm getting tired of that ****. Tired of that ****. I'm tired of ****ing Earth Day, I'm tired of these self-righteous environmentalists, these white, bourgeois liberals who think the only thing wrong with this country is there aren't enough bicycle paths. People trying to make the world save for their Volvos. Besides, environmentalists don't give a **** about the planet. They don't care about the planet. Not in the abstract they don't. Not in the abstract they don't. You know what they're interested in? A clean place to live. Their own habitat. They're worried that some day in the future, they might be personally inconvenienced. Narrow, unenlightened self-interest doesn't impress me.

Besides, there is nothing wrong with the planet. Nothing wrong with the planet. The planet is fine. The PEOPLE are ****ed. Difference. Difference. The planet is fine. Compared to the people, the planet is doing great. Been here four and a half billion years. Did you ever think about the arithmetic? The planet has been here four and a half billion years. We've been here, what, a hundred thousand? Maybe two hundred thousand? And we've only been engaged in heavy industry for a little over two hundred years. Two hundred years versus four and a half billion. And we have the CONCEIT to think that somehow we're a threat? That somehow we're gonna put in jeopardy this beautiful little blue-green ball that's just a-floatin' around the sun?

The planet has been through a lot worse than us. Been through all kinds of things worse than us. Been through earthquakes, volcanoes, plate tectonics, continental drift, solar flares, sun spots, magnetic storms, the magnetic reversal of the poles...hundreds of thousands of years of bombardment by comets and asteroids and meteors, worlwide floods, tidal waves, worldwide fires, erosion, cosmic rays, recurring ice ages...And we think some plastic bags, and some aluminum cans are going to make a difference? The planet...the planet...the planet isn't going anywhere. WE ARE!

We're going away. Pack your ****, folks. We're going away. And we won't leave much of a trace, either. Thank God for that. Maybe a little styrofoam. Maybe. A little styrofoam. The planet'll be here and we'll be long gone. Just another failed mutation. Just another closed-end biological mistake. An evolutionary cul-de-sac. The planet'll shake us off like a bad case of fleas. A surface nuisance.

You wanna know how the planet's doing? Ask those people at Pompeii, who are frozen into position from volcanic ash, how the planet's doing. You wanna know if the planet's all right, ask those people in Mexico City or Armenia or a hundred other places buried under thousands of tons of earthquake rubble, if they feel like a threat to the planet this week. Or how about those people in Kilowaia, Hawaii, who built their homes right next to an active volcano, and then wonder why they have lava in the living room.

The planet will be here for a long, long, LONG time after we're gone, and it will heal itself, it will cleanse itself, 'cause that's what it does. It's a self-correcting system. The air and the water will recover, the earth will be renewed, and if it's true that plastic is not degradable, well, the planet will simply incorporate plastic into a new pardigm: the earth plus plastic. The earth doesn't share our prejudice towards plastic. Plastic came out of the earth. The earth probably sees plastic as just another one of its children. Could be the only reason the earth allowed us to be spawned from it in the first place. It wanted plastic for itself. Didn't know how to make it. Needed us. Could be the answer to our age-old egocentric philosophical question, "Why are we here?" Plastic...*******.

So, the plastic is here, our job is done, we can be phased out now. And I think that's begun. Don't you think that's already started? I think, to be fair, the planet sees us as a mild threat. Something to be dealt with. And the planet can defend itself in an organized, collective way, the way a beehive or an ant colony can. A collective defense mechanism. The planet will think of something. What would you do if you were the planet? How would you defend yourself against this troublesome, pesky species? Let's see... Viruses. Viruses might be good. They seem vulnerable to viruses. And, uh...viruses are tricky, always mutating and forming new strains whenever a vaccine is developed. Perhaps, this first virus could be one that compromises the immune system of these creatures. Perhaps a human immunodeficiency virus, making them vulnerable to all sorts of other diseases and infections that might come along. And maybe it could be spread sexually, making them a little reluctant to engage in the act of reproduction.

Well, that's a poetic note. And it's a start. And I can dream, can't I? See I don't worry about the little things: bees, trees, whales, snails. I think we're part of a greater wisdom than we will ever understand. A higher order. Call it what you want. Know what I call it? The Big Electron. The Big Electron...whoooa. Whoooa. Whoooa. It doesn't punish, it doesn't reward, it doesn't judge at all. It just is. And so are we. For a little while.

Jason

[Hardlyrob]

Yes, but the flip side is people may think it is so minimally effective in the overall scheme as to be a waste of time and effort. Or, wonder if this seemingly innocent gesture is the start of a broader attack on our economy.

FWIW, I would LOVE for the USA to get off Mideast oil and switch to Ethanol like Brazil. To me this is a real issue, with real possibilities. I have no clue why this Congress doesn't spend a day or 2 on this issue.

Sorry - a little late to the game / rant / food fight: congress and various state legislatures have spent quite a bit of time on this - unfortunately it's not a simple as it seems. Today there are state and federal mandates for the amount of renewable fuels that must be used - Ethanol in gas and biodiesel (from a number of sources including old fryer grease). Farmer groups and some big companies (ADM) are building ethanol plants as fast as they can. There is good money for farmer investments with the current demand for ethanol and the high spot prices.

The challenge is the law of unintended consequences - in the US we make ethanol from corn. Corn prices haver spiked from $2.40 / bushel last year to $4+ today. 60% of the cost of chicken production is corn - so we're paying more for our chicken, beef, coke (corn syrup) etc. because of demand for renewable fuel.

On top of this, ethanol isn't the answer. If every acre in the US that could grow corn was planted in corn for ethanol, we still would only produce about 60% of the fuel requirements, and have nothing to feed to chickens and cows. Ultimately the ethanol producers know that corn isn't the right starting material. The holy grail is cellulose so you could use municipal waste, grass clippings etc. But that technology just barely works in the proof of concept stage. On top of that, it can't be retro-fit into the existing ethanol infrastructure - different process. The smart farmers see this as a bubble, and are looking to get their money out FAST.

Cheers!

Rob

[Hardlyrob]

Someone a page back or so asked how Brazil fuels most of their cars with ethanol - first off they start with sugar cane which is a better way to make sugar to feed to yeast to make booze. Second, there are huge government incentives in place to grow sugar cane, and to make fuel ethanol. Their taxes are in some ways making the fuel ethanol biz. work for the country.

There was another question about biodiesel. Biodiesel is a simpler and more predictable process than fuel ethanol as it is really treated vegetable oil. The challenges today are that the production scale is not there for biodiesel, and the bigger challenge is that is turns into diesel jello when it gets too cold. Fuel injectors really dislike jello. Stabilizing biodiesel for use in cold weather is where a LOT of research is going on right now. Several midwest states have mandates for the amount of biodiesel that must be used (MN, IL, MI among others).

HTH Rob

[zeroking17]

<snip>

The challenge is the law of unintended consequences - in the US we make ethanol from corn. Corn prices haver spiked from $2.40 / bushel last year to $4+ today. 60% of the cost of chicken production is corn - so we're paying more for our chicken, beef, coke (corn syrup) etc. because of demand for renewable fuel.

On top of this, ethanol isn't the answer. If every acre in the US that could grow corn was planted in corn for ethanol, we still would only produce about 60% of the fuel requirements, and have nothing to feed to chickens and cows. Ultimately the ethanol producers know that corn isn't the right starting material. The holy grail is cellulose so you could use municipal waste, grass clippings etc. But that technology just barely works in the proof of concept stage. On top of that, it can't be retro-fit into the existing ethanol infrastructure - different process. The smart farmers see this as a bubble, and are looking to get their money out FAST.

Cheers!

Rob

Insightful comments. Thanks.

Speaking as someone who grew up working on a farm, I'm less than enthused about this mad rush to view ethanol as a "silver bullet" that will solve, or even slightly improve, our dependence on foreign energy sources.

In addition to the reasons that you articulated, the temporary incentive to plant more corn will lead to increased use of herbicides and pesticides (and their runoff into our streams and rivers); increased use of diesel fuel to till the soil, plant, and harvest the additional corn; increased soil erosion; increased use of natural gas to dry the corn for storage,...well, you get the picture.

Many non-farmers who drive through the midwest comment on the lush, "natural" landscape, unaware that today's corn and bean fields are some of the most unnatural, highly manipulated, sterile patches of ground that you find this side of the moon.

A rush toward corn-based ethanol will result in extremely damaging monocultural farming practices. As others in this thread have stated so well, it should be about getting by on less, downsizing, rather than searching for alternate ways to prop up a wildly irresponsible standard of living.

[93legendti]

Sorry - a little late to the game / rant / food fight: congress and various state legislatures have spent quite a bit of time on this - unfortunately it's not a simple as it seems. Today there are state and federal mandates for the amount of renewable fuels that must be used - Ethanol in gas and biodiesel (from a number of sources including old fryer grease). Farmer groups and some big companies (ADM) are building ethanol plants as fast as they can. There is good money for farmer investments with the current demand for ethanol and the high spot prices.

The challenge is the law of unintended consequences - in the US we make ethanol from corn. Corn prices haver spiked from $2.40 / bushel last year to $4+ today. 60% of the cost of chicken production is corn - so we're paying more for our chicken, beef, coke (corn syrup) etc. because of demand for renewable fuel.

On top of this, ethanol isn't the answer. If every acre in the US that could grow corn was planted in corn for ethanol, we still would only produce about 60% of the fuel requirements, and have nothing to feed to chickens and cows. Ultimately the ethanol producers know that corn isn't the right starting material. The holy grail is cellulose so you could use municipal waste, grass clippings etc. But that technology just barely works in the proof of concept stage. On top of that, it can't be retro-fit into the existing ethanol infrastructure - different process. The smart farmers see this as a bubble, and are looking to get their money out FAST.

Cheers!

Rob
I agree, that's why I said what I said. And you agree with my point that there are no simple solutions. Every new answer has unintended consequences, without question.

[sspielman]

In the above discussion, there have been many posts about pollution...and others about sustainable or alternative energy...as if they are the same thing. It should be pointed out theat they are not. In this example, pollution is simply what is left over after we use something. Sustainable energy simply refers to energy sources other than from fossil fuels. There is a HUGE misconception (fallacy) in the environmental movement that all sustainable energy sources are environmentally friendly. Our energy economy is carbon based. The so-called "biofuels" that have come into fashion of late are simply made from plant material that has been recently grown as opposed to plants that were grown several million years ago (as in crude oil, coal or natural gas). They pollute every bit as much in use as their fossil analogs....or more if one takes into consideration the fuels that are utilised in their refinement. The bottom line is that we derive energy from the carbon bonds in these fuels. A "new" carbon bond provides no more energy than the one that is a couple eons old...so our carbon consuming machines spew out just as much hydrocarbon pollution after use (including the much maligned "greenhouse gas" CO2)

[Hardlyrob]

I agree with you Zeroking17 - Ethanol isn't the answer for energy dependence - it is a way for farmers in the US to make a little more money as the ethanol demand cannot be filled no matter how much corn they plant each year.

I'm not sure using plant materials for biofuels will be more damaging than what is happening today. With the GMO crops, the use of pesticides is greatly reduced from what it was only 10 years ago. About the only chemical that is used in abundance is Roundup / Glyphosate and that stuff is pretty much inert 24 hours after application. Today the midwest is far from a natural landscape - more bicultural agriculture - corn and soybeans - each their own monoculture.

I also agree with Sspeilman renewable biofuels are not neccesarily very environment friendly. Yes the vast majority of our energy is carbon based today (except nukes, hydro and wind). Renewable fuels are simply lower net carbon additions to the atmosphere because they are "recent" carbon. I haven't seen good numbers, but one that's thrown around in the industry is that ethanol only contributes about 30% more energy than it takes to produce it considering diesel for tractors, trucks, gas for drying corn, ethanol processing energy etc. Reducing consumption is the key, but as most humans, we won't do that until there is a direct threat to us as individuals or as a country - or energy gets so expensive that we really have to think about it.

Cheers!

Rob

[LesMiner]

True we all have the paradigm that internal combustion engines must operate on a carbon based fuel. We also believe the same about power generation and heating. Our science and technology converts heat into mechanical energy and in part into electricity. Heat can be produced other ways. Nuclear is alternative. It is used to heat water into steam then into mechanical energy then into electricty. But nuclear waste is potentially a bigger problem than CO2 other green house effects. Yet there are other ways to produce heat. The following website illustrates a company that can produce heat from water only, no carbon base fuel.

http://hytechapps.com/aquygen

[William]

True we all have the paradigm that internal combustion engines must operate on a carbon based fuel. We also believe the same about power generation and heating. Our science and technology converts heat into mechanical energy and in part into electricity. Heat can be produced other ways. Nuclear is alternative. It is used to heat water into steam then into mechanical energy then into electricty. But nuclear waste is potentially a bigger problem than CO2 other green house effects. Yet there are other ways to produce heat. The following website illustrates a company that can produce heat from water only, no carbon base fuel.

http://hytechapps.com/aquygen

Very interesting. Seeing that water is vital to life, I wonder how much water would be needed to do this on a large scale? What are the by-products if any?




William

[LesMiner]

Water is more precious in some places than in others. The world has a lot more water than oil, coal or natural gas that is available in far more places. In this process you don't create the gas then distribute it. Instead you procduce the gas as part of the application. The fossil fuel refining process produces green house gases before it is consumed as fuel.

The by product is water. The process works by separating water into a gas that has 2 parts hydrogen and one part oxygen. Ignite it and heat is produced while the gas returns to its former state, water. Here is another link into the same website showing the technology applied to a car.

http://hytechapps.com/aquygen/hhos