Last match built Paramount value (discuss)

[stackie]

So, the last match built Paramount is on ebay now. It's a custom design by Tim Isaac, brazed by the seller. It's very different than the stock bikes, not only in geometry, but also in lugs, cable routing, paint, seat stays, etc. It does happen to be my size. In some ways, I'd prefer one that was more stock, i.e., the stock lugs and stock curves for the seat stays. But, this one is somewhat special. I'm sure that it will probably go for way more than I want to pay, but I'm just curious what the peeps here say.

Jon

[michael white]

I looked through the ad briefly, the red one.
The cable routing looks like the main thing different from the stock match Paramount. I think it's just a little unfortunate, as the split stops are a better system for me, but it's a minor issue. Otherwise it looks just like a stock match Paramount. Lugs, stays and all are like mine. I have a blue one. My plan is that when it's time to repaint, I'll switch to red. Although the stock red was a little more of a metallic scarlet than that ebay bike, which also has different decals. I wonder who this seller is?

This is still a spendid frame regardless, it really rides great. Every accolade you can say is fully deserved. There's not much clearance with the fork crown, and I am not sure I care much for the bent chainstays, as I rub my heels a lot back there. But this frame was made to be a dream bike and it still is one. They were 1400 retail for the frame, which used to seem like a lot back then, but it would be hard to get a comparable frame for twice that now.

[97CSI]

Was out-bid at $595 (think the final price was $603) on a pristine blue Match-built Paramount about a month ago. Believe there were 8 bidders, if that is any help. Included the original fork.

[dbrk]

Some (say, like me) think that the lugs on those match-built Paramounts were among the most elegant we've ever seen. There are still sets of those lugs available. My next Mariposa will be using them, in fact. There is a great picture of them too on the old Rivendell lug calender which came out, I think, in 2000 or 2001 (I'll look...it's downstairs).

These bikes were a great idea but there were all sorts of...err....strange...design issues. There were, for example, supposed to be, if I am not mistaken, custom cable guides on the bb but were never finished. I had one of these bikes and regret having sold it. The aesthetic was simply great and the quality of the build was really swell.

dbrk

[michael white]

"of...err....strange...design issues. " (douglas)


I ride mine a lot and it's possibly my best all around bike. As for design issues, here's another example: the sloping fork crown doesn't allow much clearance either for bigger tires or for the actual brake caliper. I am using mostly Suntour SP on this bike, but had to swap out the front brake for a Shimano, because the Suntour brake actually made contact with the headset (the rake is set in the crown, which causes the caliper to angle sharply up). The Shimano works fine, but if I were a snob I would resent the mongrelization of a fine bike. Still, it's a very special bike.

An example of how good it is: the seat tube was honed by stone, not reamed. So the seatpost goes in smooth like you wouldn't believe.

And it's true, that seat cluster is a signature marvel, though some might prefer old-school fluted caps. It's very American, kinda follows in the line of Eisentraut/Ritchey etc, like the bike itself, in my opinion.

[Keith A]

I too have a match built Schwinn Paramount in red and it's a beauty! As dbrk stated, the lug work is superb and the way the seat collar is integrated into the seat stays is just lovely. However, they did have some paint issues and mine has chipped easily and would like to get it refinished at some point.

Regarding the eBay bike, I can't see any difference in the lug design between this one and mine (which I'm looking at right now). But I'm sure the seller would know since he built it. BTW, his name is Brian which is printed on the CAD drawing. I'm sure KP could tell us more if he cares to do so.

[big shanty]

Just my size......

[Keith A]

duplicate post

[Keith A]

The eBay auction states...

"1998 Schwinn Paramount, for sale by the frame’s builder......

Schwinn hired the world renowned designer, Tim Issac to design and build the signature frame without compromise. He used every trick in the book in designing this unique bike. The bikes were built in Woodinville Washington by hand using state of the art machinery, skilled craftsmen and the finest raw materials as specified by TS Isaac."

I didn't take from this statement that TI built this frame himself -- especially since the CAD drawing has "Brian's 63cm" in the description.

BTW, here's the link to the eBay auction (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270103738504&indexURL=6&photoDisplayType=2#ebayphotohosting).

I also found this reference to the builders at match by a quick search of the Internet...

"Tim Isaac at Match Cycles employed some great frame builders and mechanics. Among them were Kirk Pacenti, Steve Hampsten, Curt Goodrich, Mark Bulgier, Brian McCarthy, Rick Ghneme, Alistair Spence, Martin Tweedy and Dan Swanson. "

[Keith A]

<snip>These bikes were a great idea but there were all sorts of...err....strange...design issues. There were, for example, supposed to be, if I am not mistaken, custom cable guides on the bb but were never finished.<snip>This was posted on the forum by KP a while back regarding the bottom bracket...

"As a former match employee myself, and having brazed several hundred of those frames; I can tell you there was a cable guide [of sorts] cast into the shell. It has been too many years since I brazed on of these frames up, but I do recall Tim's design intent for the shell.

The shell had a raised "plate" that was designed to be a space for the serial number to be stamped into the frame. This plate also had two small grooves to act as "cable guides". Next to each of the grooves the plate had (or should have had) a small tapped hole. The hole was to accept a small cap screw that kept the calbe form popping out of position. The groove was deep enough that the cap screw bottomed out on the plate without touching the cable and causing friction.

This was one of many of Tim's really "tidy" design ideas that were great on paper, (but from the sounds of your post) may not have worked well in practice."

[michael white]

no, it works completely fine in practice. The bb has grooves in it, the cables run in the grooves, like many other designs, and mine has never given a hint of trouble in years of use.

I'm interested in the cap screws; thanks for digging that up. I just checked mine, and there are no cap screws, only the grooves and the plate as described. Maybe I should go to the fastener shop . . .

But I don't see any real need for the screws, either.

[shiftinjon]

I bought a Tim Isaac frame built up with all Super Record including Ti BB and Pedal axles back in '78. This was before he went to Trek. It was built as a display bike for the Columbus, Ohio dealer show. Impeccable work. It was the best all around bike I've ever ridden. Other frames did single things better, but none were better for everything than my Isaac. Of course, that could be the endorphin-charged opinion of a testosterone-charged young adult.

[cpg]

I remember this bike. Rick G. brought in his handy fixture for drilling the top tube internals. Then I showed Brian how to finish the ends. Cool bike and Brian is a cool dude.

Curt

[Steve Hampsten]

"erotically curvaceous" from the seller's description - yep, that's my pal Brian who now supplies me with paper products. Brian taught me how to light a torch, braze forks, and not cook the flux any more than necessary. He built this frame himself, for himself.

If it fits it's a cool frame and a keeper, but frame design has marched on since those halcyon days of '97. Imho there were enough of these built that they'll probably never be true collector's items but maybe your grandkids will thank you someday.

A quick note on the "state of the art" machinery used: most of it was brand-new single function Taiwanese milling machines made by a company called (I think) "Chi Tseng" or something like that - it was pronounced "she-CHUNG". Our joke was that she-CHUNG was the noise that the machine made each time it crashed and destroyed the cutter, the expensive 853 tube it was mitering, and fouled the setup of said machine. Last I heard Waterford was stuck with these silly tools.

[Jeff N.]

Anyone know anything about the Schwinn Peloton? It's also made from 853, but I believe it's Tig welded. Is it decent or a POS? Jeff N.

[Keith A]

I think the Peleton was basically the welded version of the Paramount, but I don't know who built these or if the same tubing was used or not. I'm sure one of the guys from the former match cycles could anwser this.

[avalonracing]

Anyone know anything about the Schwinn Peloton? It's also made from 853, but I believe it's Tig welded. Is it decent or a POS? Jeff N.

My old team had 853 Pelotons as our sponsor bike (this was back in '98 I think). We had some pretty good Cat 1's and 2's on the team and they really liked the bikes.

[Steve Hampsten]

The Peloton was cool. I don't know what the geometry was, but I assume they were essentially Taiwanese TIG-welded 853 Paramounts at a lower price point. Those guys do good work.

Goofy forks, iirc.

And of course, a big HUZZAH to the Serotta-welded titanium Paramounts.

(At match we didn't exactly SNEER at them so much as feel...ours...were the TRUE Paramounts - being steel and all. Titanium was fine for dilettentes but steel was keeping it real.)

[97CSI]

Not sure who built the Peloton, but a friend bought two NOS framesets for $100 about three years ago. He had S&S couplers put into one and uses as his 'traveling' bike. Very nice frameset for all around riding. Probably could be fairly compared to a Gunnar.

[Keith A]

Found this bit of information on the Schwinn forum (http://www.schwinnbike.com/heritage/showthread.php?t=32256) that also confirmed that the Peloton was built in Taiwan. The catalog states the following about the Peloton...

"Schwinn Paramount road design frame featuring a TIG welded Reynolds 853 main frame, curved seatstays and chainstays, and forged dropouts."

It doesn't say what the rear triangle is made of, whereas the Paramount specifically makes note that its rear is Reynolds 725. The Peloton did have the same geometry and it came with an "Schwinn Alloy straight blade fork".

[Ken Robb]

I did a lengthy test ride on a peloton when they were current and it was a good ride. I rode one with a carbon fork and one with an aluminum (alloy) fork. The carbon was better in every way and I don't recall that it was a really good carbon fork either. I think a Peloton with a good steel or carbon fork could be a great ride for low$$.