Potential Serotta ti purchase

[d_douglas]

Hello:

I need a few opinions on this one. I bought Frank Beshear's 2003 Serotta Concours last year. Feels great, beautiful bike, fancy paintjob, but I don't like the tall headtube and sloping top tube. I don't think this makes a difference to the overall geo's and the ride quality - it is mostly aesthetic. It is in excellent to mint condition, as I baby it (too much) so the frame looks more or less new.

see: http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=22377&highlight=concours

I live in Geneva. There is a shop here that sells/sold Serottas (see earlier rant about rude retailers). He struck a deal with Serotta some time ago where they built him frames and he branded and painted them as his own (Cycles Girard).

There is another shop in the city that happens to have an old ti serotta of this sort that is available for a good price. The entire bike is absolutely MINT - as in MINT!!! The shop owner said he figured that it had not been ridden more than 50km. It has original rubbber that looks new and the original bar tape that has a faint layer of dirt, likely from being fondled. I am certain that it has been stored in a climate controlled storage facility. He is selling it for a very reasonable price.

It is a 58x58cm horizontal TT (my size) with a Dura Ace 8-spd group / Mavic Ceramic wheelset, etc. that shows no wear.

I have contacted (Serotta) Andrew to inquire about this bike and he said he figures that it was likely a 1997 Legend with an F1 fork. Aside from the downside of having a 1-inch threaded fork, what disadvantages are there to this bike in comparison to my 2003 Concours? Should I eat my retro aesthetic pride and save myself the hassle of buying this bike and selling the group along with my frame and fork?

Are they practically the same bike with different geometries?

If I am to buy this frame, then I will put the Concours frame and fork on the selling block along with the Dura Ace group, and use my Campy group on the older Legend. All will transfer except that I will use a threadless adaptor for my OS stem.

Your opinions are appreciated (both aesthetic and technical). Your responses may fuel an advertisement for the Concours frame and fork along with a groupo that Dura Ace fanatics will drool over. I love the old Dura Ace, but can't afford to keep it because I know that it is quite valuable.

I am not prodding for buyers, but genuinely asking for your thoughts. It would save me hassle and grief from my wife (we are watching our finances) if I stick with what I know, but the other one (aside from the lame 'Cycles Girard' decals) seems prettier to me. A paint strip and some Serotta decals someday would make things all right.

Let the responses pour in......

[dbrk]

Personally, I don't see any downside to the threaded steerer except that it is out of "fashion". The F1 has very limited clearances and it's particularly stiff. I would compare fork clearances if such things matter to you .

Also, it might not be the case that this Legend rides much like the Concours and, I'm talkin' completely out of my hat here...completely...but the Legend might well be a stiffer, stouter ride overall. That is just a guess based on, well, nothing like facts. At 58cm the tubes get OS.

I'm sort of an aesthetic stickler and can't long own a bike that doesn't match my values. Yeah, it's a tool, it's a bike, ride it, it's all the ride, that chorus will undoubtedly make its appearance. I find most modern bikes don't meet my eye quite right, I am sorry to say. YMMV, of course!

If it were me...well, I'd look for a steel forked CSi, especially if I were looking for what I REALLY wanted. Good luck!

dbrk

[Serotta PETE]

The bikes should ride pretty much the same. The older one will be a little heavier because of F1 fork. It is a very good fork but is somewhat heavier than the newer ones. You did not mention any ride characteristics that you did not like with Frank's frame so they are very similar. The possible difference between F1 fork and others is that there is not a direct replacement if you care to go threadless less. It has something to do with fork height. Serotta Andrew could explain better.

From a ride point of view, I would stay with what you have, but if the looks are horrible to your eye than go with the Legend and F1. THERE IS REALLY NOT A CORRECT AND INCORRECT ANSWER,

Regards

PETE

[d_douglas]

Having foolishly passed on your lovely yellow Legend a couple of years ago, you are the right person to give advice.

The best thing for me to do (though it may sound alarm bells to the sellers, causing prices to be non-negotiable!) is to get the serial number, send it to Serotta and get every last detail. For all I know, it could be whack custom geometry, but it doesn't look like it.

My guess is that this shop ordered 50 stock Legends and painted them as they saw fit (ugly, in my opinion, but paint can always be changed or eliminated)

So, you think that a 1997 will have OS tubes? As far as fork clearances, I would not run anything wider than 25mm (more like 23mm) . That shouldn't be a problem, right? No fenders on this bike, so no worries in that department.

[d_douglas]

Yes - nothing stands out to me as being weird on my Concours. It looks tall, but I would have my stem set in the same place with teh help of spacers, stem rise, etc. It is my first Serotta and my first ti frame. I was/am so enamoured with the Serotta and the ti that I might be blinded from seeing faults in the ride. That said, I recently owned a Dekerf road bike that was gorgeous, but didn't feel right, so I think I would be able to identify a fault in the Serotta if there was one.

Oh, I believe that the shainstays are a bit long on it. It doesn't particularly bother me, but does change the ride, I am sure. That said, I hate SHORT chainstays.

[Serotta PETE]

MY F1 FORK WILL NOT TAKE A 25MM MICHELIN WITHOUT RUBBING. IT HANDLES THE 23 FINE. Douglas has far more knowledge than I do in this area. PETE


Having foolishly passed on your lovely yellow Legend a couple of years ago, you are the right person to give advice.

The best thing for me to do (though it may sound alarm bells to the sellers, causing prices to be non-negotiable!) is to get the serial number, send it to Serotta and get every last detail. For all I know, it could be whack custom geometry, but it doesn't look like it.

My guess is that this shop ordered 50 stock Legends and painted them as they saw fit (ugly, in my opinion, but paint can always be changed or eliminated)

So, you think that a 1997 will have OS tubes? As far as fork clearances, I would not run anything wider than 25mm (more like 23mm) . That shouldn't be a problem, right? No fenders on this bike, so no worries in that department.

[dbrk]

MY F1 FORK WILL NOT TAKE A 25MM MICHELIN WITHOUT RUBBING. IT HANDLES THE 23 FINE. Douglas has far more knowledge than I do in this area. PETE


Pete's right: the F1 really won't take a Michelin Pro Race 25c, which I consider the clincher gold standard, the tire with no downside. If I'm not riding these, then it's up to Rivendell RP/RT, Avocet 28 or 32, or Gran Bois. A 23c tire imho stiffens up a ride considerably. Tires over all else when it comes to the first level of comfort; and so little is compromised and so much gained with even a slightly wider tire. Still, I'd bet the Legend is a tad stiffer...just guessing....certainly a beautiful bike!!

dbrk

[Ken Robb]

I can ride Conti UltraGatorskin 700x25 but not 700x28 in our CSI/F1 fork. Michelins run a little fatter than most brands. I love the ride of the Ms but I get way too many flats riding them.

[abqhudson]

My first guess is that you just need a level top tube Concours to make you happy and my second guess is that the older bike will have a stiffer ride.

I really like the ride of the Concours (level top tube) I purchased recently and like it better than the two Seven Axioms (butted tubing) that I owned previously.

YMMV.

Jim

[Ahneida Ride]

MY F1 FORK WILL NOT TAKE A 25MM MICHELIN WITHOUT RUBBING. IT HANDLES THE 23 FINE.
PETE

Pete is correct about this .....

[d_douglas]

Hmmm - I can't decide now.

I took the Concours out for 2 hours this afternoon in the warm sunshine outside of Geneva. Truth is, once I am on the bike, I can't tell if there's a tall HT or a sloping TT. The bike feels great and I pedalled hard into corners to test the handling capabilities. All very nice.

Though it has been more than a year since I have ridden a trad geo bike, the only guess I have of a shortcoming for my bike is that it doesn't have that feelling of momentum that my Cinelli has. Somehow, i feel like I get a real head of steam going on that one that the Serotta doesn't capture. Perhaps that's because it actually handles nicer than the Cinelli and doesn't make you feel like you are on top of a missile - I am not sure.

Still thinking about what to do...

[djg]

Can you ride the other bike?

I'm sure it's a fine bike and that the differences may be small, or matters of personal preference. But one thing I'd wonder about is this: if the older bike was built as a custom bike, there may be different tube selection depending on whether the intial rider was, I dunno, 125 pounds or 225 pounds, and there may be small geometry differences that were incorporated for him (or her). I'm sure it all makes sense as a bike, but what you have is a known quantity, whereas the new one may not be.

[d_douglas]

I am a bit doubtful that they'd let me try it out, since it is a consigned bike by a customer, but I could get the SN easily enough and then call serotta to dig up information on the geometry. If anything looks weird, I would avoid it.

I will keep you posted...

[DRZRM]

I have a 96-97 Legend, and based on what I learned when I asked for info off the SN, they will probably have some difficulty finding the specs on it (paper copies in a box, not on computer like the newer numbers). Maybe you will get lucky.

Seems to me that if a foreign shop were buying bulk frames to rebadge, I doubt they would be ordering custom, so it is probably stock 58 frame. For what it is worth, I love mine.

Zach

[Keith A]

d_douglas -- DRZRM is correct about Serotta most likely not having the geometry details on a bike of that age, but if you do get the serial number, then post it here. If it goes back to the "L" geometry period of Serotta, then I can give you the specs of the geometry based on what was printed in their catalogs from that era. BTW, my Legend is from the same time period and it came with an F1 fork on it and I have switched this for an all carbon Ouzo Pro which improved the ride IMO.

BTW, I would think that the shop would at least let you take it for a spin around the block. After all, I would expect that you are still spending more than $1K for the bike and it is completely reasonable that you be allowed to ride the bike before making the purchase. If they refuse, then you could politely ask them to contact the seller and see if he would give permission to do so. If he is motivated to sell his bike, then I'm sure he would agree.

Edit: Two quick differences I see right now in the geometry are that the Legend is going to have a BB drop of 7cm and I'm pretty sure the chainstays are going to be 41.5cm long.

[d_douglas]

I went there yesterday (disguised myself as looking for new tires - sneaky) and subsequently got caught in the freakiest thunder and lightning storm I have seen in ages. It started raining, then it hailed, then the streets filled with wet snow within 15minutes - weird. So, in an effort to stay outta the downpour, I hung out in the shop and flipped over the 'ol Serotta.

Unforntunately, my memory is failing me and I recall most, but not all of the SN:

It is either SL 58 110 OR ST 58 110

Though I am pretty sure it was an 'L' which represents 'legend'. I had a good look at the bike and it truly is a 9.7+/10 - the ugly yellow Turbomatic and the yellow bar tape had a faint bit of grime on them, but it could be mistaken for new. I have never seen a 10 year old bike in this condition!

Does anyone know about this vintage based on teh provided serial number?

Thanks,
Darren

[Keith A]

Darren -- It is going to be difficult to know much based on the partial serial number. My '97ish Legend has the serial number of Ti55L 1522. The 55L indicates the size and their "long" geometry and the 1522 is the production number starting with zero.

Could you call the bike shop and have them give you the number? That would be really helpful.

A couple of other things that can help date the frame is the following:
o Does it have "Ti" or "Legend Ti" on the top tube?
o What type of rear dropouts are on the frame? There have been three different versions (that I know of) that have been used on the Legends.

[d_douglas]

Unless I missed something, I think that was the entire SN. It was clearly stamped on the BB (but maybe continued around the underside of the shell??)

As for the model, since it is painted the shop colours, I don't recall there being anything to indicate 'ti' or 'Legend', etc. It says something like 'made for ...... by Serotta' on the chainstay and has the typical Serotta tubing decals and Made in the USA type stuff as well as the fork crown markings. That was it, I think.

I foolishly forgot to check the dropouts - I have no idea.

As for the SN, maybe they are specific to runs of outsourcing that they did for this shop or Paramount or ???????.


PS Keith A: your Legend is gorgeous - I love the finish on it.

[Ken Robb]

If I remember correctly Serotta made or still makes a bike called a Saratoga for sale by a shop in Northern California (City Cycles?) and maybe others. It sounds like this may be what you are looking at. They would not be equal to a Legend. Maybe more like the discontinued Classique? That might explain the ST serial # which certainly isn't anything like the numbers on any Legend I've ever seen.

[d_douglas]

I rolled in briefly today to see that the dropouts were not standard old school plates - they were fancy-ish Serotta DOs. I imagine that the new ones are even more intricate, but these were definitely modern looking.

No photos to show. So, does this accurately date or identify the model of this frame? A 1997 Legend? Does it matter?

DD

[Keith A]

I assume the folks at Serotta would know specifically when the 3D dropouts were introduced, but here's the best I can do....the '97 catalog doesn't say anything about dropouts and I don't have a '98 catalog, but the '99 catalog does indeed list the Legend Ti as having "Ultra-light Serotta 3/D CNC 6/4 titanium vertical" dropouts. So this would put this frame in the '97 to '99 year range.

The geometry from the '99 catalog for a "58" is:
Seat Tube: 58 cm (not sure if this is c-t or c-c)
Seat Angle: 73.0º
Top Tube: 58.0 cm
Head Angle: 73.5º
Chainstay 41.5 cm
Fork rake: 4.3 cm
Wheelbase: 100.8
Stand-over: 84.2 cm

No mention of the bottom bracket drop, but I'm pretty sure it is 7 cm. BTW, the '97 catalog I have does not have any geometry specs listed.

Finally, I think Ken Robb is probably correct about the serial number since these were not labeled as a Serotta and therefore were not included in the standard Serotta serial numbers.

Edit: Darren -- thanks for the kinds words regarding my Legend :)

[Ken Robb]

Does it have the shaped Colorado Concept tubes? That would give you a clue where in the Serotta frame hierarchy this mystery frame fits.

Does it matter if it's a Legend you ask. Not if you think all Serotta frames are the same. Is a Fierte the same as a Legend? :)

[d_douglas]

I am rolling home on through Geneva ona sunny saturday afternoon after a beautiful ride and at a big public bike stand sits the aforementioned Swiss Serotta!!! Son of a B*tch!!!

Anyways, looks like I missed the boat on it OR the original owner decided to hold onto it and enjoy. Funny thing is that it was sitting in the bike racks just like the rusty old beaters propped up beside it.

FYI I actually finally went and rode it last Wednesday and it was a big change from my Concours. I use 46cm bars and these were 42cms (How do people my size use bars this narrow?!?!) so that threw me off, but the ride was great. I just spun around the block and noticed that I would probably put my name in on the mounting petition for a HeadsUp if I bought it, but alas, that isn't a problem now.

I scrawled a note with my keys in the paint job saying I would be interested in buying it if they were having buyers remorse (not sure what i said because I have no idea how to translate 'buyers remorse') but anyways, it was a last stab to see what happens...

Darren

PS just kidding about keying the bike. You knew that, right?

[Ahneida Ride]

MY F1 FORK WILL NOT TAKE A 25MM MICHELIN WITHOUT RUBBING. IT HANDLES THE 23 FINE. Douglas has far more knowledge than I do in this area. PETE

Amen on Pete's remark ...

F1 will not accomodate a 23 Michelin. But a 23 is just fine.

Us Cylesdales, like the F1.

[Marcusaurelius]

I love my F1 fork and I've never had a problem with 700X25mm continental tires but I'm not sure about other brands. The F1 is one of the few forks I've ridden that I found was stiff enough for me.

[vaxn8r]

I love my F1 fork and I've never had a problem with 700X25mm continental tires but I'm not sure about other brands. The F1 is one of the few forks I've ridden that I found was stiff enough for me.
Conti 700x25 = Michelin 700x23

[barry1021]

I am a bit doubtful that they'd let me try it out, since it is a consigned bike by a customer, but I could get the SN easily enough and then call serotta to dig up information on the geometry. If anything looks weird, I would avoid it.

I will keep you posted...

hard to believe they would not let you ride it if you ask.....

b21

[39cross]

I am rolling home on through Geneva ona sunny saturday afternoon after a beautiful ride and at a big public bike stand sits the aforementioned Swiss Serotta!!! Son of a B*tch!!! In my opinion...if you really loved it you would have intuitively known it and have plunked down the cash. As has been said in another context, there are plenty of fish in the sea...you'll find what you're looking for.