boonen's position

[Climb01742]

to my untraained eye, boonen's position appears to be cramped, reach-wise. would the more knowledgeable folks here chime in: would a longer TT (his stem looks preetty long as it is) put tom in a "better" position? again, my untrained eye could envision why tom's back might hurt.

[Len J]

to my untraained eye, boonen's position appears to be cramped, reach-wise. would the more knowledgeable folks here chime in: would a longer TT (his stem looks preetty long as it is) put tom in a "better" position? again, my untrained eye could envision why tom's back might hurt.

like he's riding way forward on his seat....maybe that explains the "cramped" look.

Len

[jthurow]

I agree that Boonen looks like he should be on a bigger bike but I think Boonen's position is like Sean Kelly's. Neither one of their positions is one that I would try to to emulate but it certainly seems to work for them.

jimi

[edouard]

that ain't his bike _ it's a lawn mower _ good position for it too _ ask stevep

[crossjunkee]

What is his seat height to bar height ratio??? WOW!!! It hurts looking at it...

[Fat Robert]

ughh

that's sorta how i look -- too low and all pseudo-cross scrunched.

here's the deal -- i stretch every day, all yogi-pogi style. i'm all flexy. i do all sorts of cycling-specific core stuff. put me on a bike and it all goes out the wnidow.

i've tried to stretch out during the fall and winter (hence the 130 stem and higher saddle on my pacenti when it was first built up -- i rode like that from sept-jan, then when i start going hard, i naturally shorten up -- i'm comfortable for long slow rides all stretched out, but i get more power out in race and club ride situations when my saddle is lower and my reach shorter...its finally registered with stupid me that if a 120 stem and a lower saddle is the way to go to do the 2-minute sprintsurge slamdown thing, then that's where it needs to stay...instead of doing this moronic saddle gets higher and stem gets longer thing during the winter, which is all backwards.... i'm just a muchwack hunchback scrunchback. love me as i am.

tom looks fine to me. his back hurt because his bike sucked. that's our story and were sticking to it.

[72gmc]

From the 2003 Worlds. He looks like his hips/back are in a more relaxed position, no?

[swoop]

doesn't look scrunched to me.... the angle of his arm in relationship to his torso looks well within an appropriate angle ...
his position is the same it was last year. its the goemetry that's killing him (front center).

jerk.. you put it best on ww... tell them what i mean.... points of contact are the same...



niether photo is dead level. position changes race to race throughout the season.... in subtle ways.

the issues are more likely from dealing with the center of balance on the bike and the way the body has to make tiny endless corrections... rather than the gross points of contact which are east to replicate.

remember the old saying: "a little knowledge is dangerous"

[cpg]

Looks mp to me BUT I figure this guy knows what works for him. When he orders a frame from me I'll build it just like he wants. Not everybody can be pretty on the bike. Just check out DWF. Well just make sure you have an empty stomach.

Curt

[jthurow]

...and he still looks cramped to me ;)
http://i.eurosport.com/2006/01/07/237814-721035-303-227.jpg

jimi

[michael white]

doesn't look scrunched to me.... the angle of his arm in relationship to his torso looks well within an appropriate angle ...
his position is the same it was last year. its the goemetry that's killing him.

jerk.. you put it best on ww... tell them what i mean.... points of contact are the same...

it's really not a fair comparison. In the first photo, his hands are pretty far out on the hoods. In the second, they're back on the ramps . . . for me, I'd rather be the second photo, but who knows whatever works for him.

[72gmc]

Sure, but to climb's point the tt on that time still looks longer than the tt on the specialized to my bleary eye. Look at the head tube in relation to his chin.

[atmo]

Sure, but to climb's point the tt on that time still looks longer than the tt on the specialized to my bleary eye. Look at the head tube in relation to his chin.
but look at his butt in relation to his saddle.
he's forward on the spec - and i betchoo that
pic was one taken when he was not riding in
anger atmo.

[coylifut]

the reason why he looks relaxed in the second picture is because he is relaxed - riding around before the start of the a race. he's always looked quite scrunched up to me. it seems as if he wants to get his bars as low as possible to get his tall self some draft off the average sized rider in front, so his reach is really short to compensate. it obviously works for him - he's a giant killer.

I guess we'll find out if the bike IS the problem after they make his custom. However, he's always looked about 5 hard pedal strokes from a herniated disk to me.

[crossjunkee]

I think Boonen should just call Tom Kellogg and be finished with it!

[CNY rider]

I think Boonen should just call Tom Kellogg and be finished with it!

Would the result be a "Special K"?

Sorry everyone, I had to do it. Just couldn't resist. Move along now. Nothing to see here. ;)

[crossjunkee]

[QUOTE=CNY rider]Would the result be a "Special K"?
QUOTE]

That's pretty good! :D

[inGobwetrust]

Hello................
http://www.bikes.msu.edu/greatest_cyclists/lance_armstrong_tt.jpg

[swoop]

gonna reduce this down to a simple truth. fit is more than just points of contact.

points of contact are easy to replicate. it just takes a level, a plumb bob and a ruler. fit regards the geometry of the bike in relationship to the points of contact. even a few mm of change in front center changes everything.

think about the miles logged and the patterns burned into the brain. its not just a physiologicalissue.. it's also neurological. something changing a little bit... can make a mess... if the change is arbitrary and the body cannot adapt. these tend to be small muscle strains rather than the big ones. we're talking about a collection of fine movements.

the better conditioned the athlete.. the more finely attuned and vulnerable the body...

atmo.

[coylifut]

Hello................
http://www.bikes.msu.edu/greatest_cyclists/lance_armstrong_tt.jpg

two guys with known back problems. No?

[coylifut]

gonna reduce this down to a simple truth. fit is more than just points of contact.

points of contact are easy to replicate. it just takes a level, a plumb bob and a ruler. fit regards the geometry of the bike in relationship to the points of contact. even a few mm of change in front center changes everything.

think about the miles logged and the patterns burned into the brain. its not just a physiologicalissue.. it's also neurological. something changing a little bit... can make a mess... if the change is arbitrary and the body cannot adapt. these tend to be small muscle strains rather than the big ones. we're talking about a collection of fine movements.

the better conditioned the athlete.. the more finely attuned and vulnerable the body...



atmo.

as much as i respect and usually agree with your take, i think the above is a bunch of hooey.

[weisan]

I blame it on the weather.

[swoop]

as much as i respect and usually agree with your take, i think the above is a bunch of hooey.


well.... i still love you too. but... you can't think for a second that they didnt replicate boonens points of contact. anybody can do that.

look at bettini too. he can hardly stay up. the geo on the specialized is ... specific. its the fine motor movements that are bringing the hurt.
the new bike will have the same points of contact.. but the geo will be different.

i'll put five bucks on it.

jerk... help me 'splain this!

[CNY rider]

as much as i respect and usually agree with your take, i think the above is a bunch of hooey.

Terry I'm respectfully agreeing with you here.

I don't care who you are, I don't think a few mm of anything, be it front center or other dimension is going to make a difference.

And I think that a well conditioned athlete should be able to handle different physiologic stresses; that to me is an axiomatic part of being called a well conditioned athlete.

[atmo]

the new bike will have the same points of contact.. but the geo will be different.
coy and swoop are part of my west coast pals
guild, but what the doc says above is the shizzle.
right fit + wrong bike = deal breaker atmo.

[sspielman]

To me, Boonen does not look comfortable on the Specialized. Even if his contact points are the same, he looks to be fighting his bike. This is the sort of thing that over long racing and training mileage can lead to alot of muscle tension and eventually an overuse injury....

[crossjunkee]

well.... i still love you too. but... you can't think for a second that they didnt replicate boonens points of contact. anybody can do that.

look at bettini too. he can hardly stay up. the geo on the specialized is ... specific. its the fine motor movements that are bringing the hurt.
the new bike will have the same points of contact.. but the geo will be different.

i'll put five bucks on it.

jerk... help me 'splain this!


Swoop, I can totally see your point. I can relate that to playing the guitar. They're all pretty much guitars, but the slightest difference in necks, and your fingers are thrown off (at least with me).

Wired to win! The athlete with the fittest mind wins. If his mind thinks it wrong, it for sure will be!

[72gmc]

So who's going to make the customs? Is Specialized really going to pop out a new frame shape--or are they going to call in a ringer?

[LegendRider]

Over at the Weight Weenies forum our friend obtuse said the following:

it's not boonen's position that is aggravating him; there are people on a pro-tour level team who can adequatly replicate contact points through the use of high-tech technology like a plumb bob, a level and a tape measure....his position hasn't changed since last year; the frame sucks. the thing has geometry that makes boonen unable to relax on the bike; the front center is whacked; the geometry is weird and he's constanly struggling to stay on top of the thing. his back hurts because he's spending too much time correcting for the peculiarities of the frames geometry.

he's a big powerful boy and that bike is a monstrosity that has no place in the pro tour with its strange geometry. specialized can make him a bike that'll replicate the handling charachteristics and the torsional rigidity of the bikes he's used in the past and he'll be fine.

jerk

Why SPECIFICALLY (no pun intended) do Specialized Tarmacs and Roubaixs suck? What number, measurement, angle or combination thereof is bad or wrong? Did Levi feel like they sucked when he was with Gerolsteiner?

[obtuse]

i just killed myself for three hours so my legs really, really hurt and i'm a little light headed- but what swoop said is right. boonen's position has not changed one iota....the problem with the specialized is the fact that it doesn't handle properly in that positon- the geometry is whacked and while boonen can make it work; the bike is a bit of a handful and requires a certain amount of attention that's 'prolly messing with his lower back.

that's all it is. specialized will make him something that works....alot of production bikes don't have front ends that make sense.

obtuse

[obtuse]

Over at the Weight Weenies forum our friend obtuse said the following:

it's not boonen's position that is aggravating him; there are people on a pro-tour level team who can adequatly replicate contact points through the use of high-tech technology like a plumb bob, a level and a tape measure....his position hasn't changed since last year; the frame sucks. the thing has geometry that makes boonen unable to relax on the bike; the front center is whacked; the geometry is weird and he's constanly struggling to stay on top of the thing. his back hurts because he's spending too much time correcting for the peculiarities of the frames geometry.

he's a big powerful boy and that bike is a monstrosity that has no place in the pro tour with its strange geometry. specialized can make him a bike that'll replicate the handling charachteristics and the torsional rigidity of the bikes he's used in the past and he'll be fine.

jerk

Why SPECIFICALLY (no pun intended) do Specialized Tarmacs and Roubaixs suck? What number, measurement, angle or combination thereof is bad or wrong? Did Levi feel like they sucked when he was with Gerolsteiner?

head angle, trail, front center and fork rake as a unit are a mess on those bikes. small bikes are alot easier to get right than big bikes.

obtuse

[Fat Robert]

geo

2000 S-Works Tarmac SL

Size 58 61

Seat Tube Length, Center to Top 550mm 580mm

Seat Tube Length, Center to Center 500mm 530mm

Top Tube Length (Horizontal) 582mm 600mm

Bottom Bracket Drop 67.5mm 67.5mm

Chainstay Length 407mm 410mm

Seat Tube Angle 73° 72.5°

Head Tube Angle 73.5° 74°

Rake 43mm 43mm

Trail 56mm 53mm

Front Center 605mm 612mm

Wheel Base 1003mm 1013mm


just to my eye, and i'm a consumer who doesn't know jack, but i had one high bb, short stay, long f-c, low trail bike carbon bike that descended like shat...and well, some things look wack...the combo of high bb, short stays, low trail and longish f-c doesn't look like the geos of big bikes that handle well...i would ride a 56, and the specialized geo for those looks a little goofy, too.

[coylifut]

coy and swoop are part of my west coast pals
guild, but what the doc says above is the shizzle.
right fit + wrong bike = deal breaker atmo.

I defer to my right and left coast friends here. They souce of my dissonance is these guys routinely completely change bike brands every few years and it's no problem. The Gerolsteiner guys have been riding them for a while and we don't have a team of back problems. Since no one here has talked to Boonen's people and we are all speculating as to the root of the problem, here's my theory.

Tom hurt his back in a crash(s). I don't know-It could have been the series of crashes that finally knocked him out of the tour a couple of years ago with a knee issue. Everytime I crash in a race, the next day feels like I was in a car wreck, not a bike wreck. He gets a new bike and the suttle difference agrivates this old injury and he just can't get comfortable on it. Or, it's not the bike at all and his back just hurts (because it's injured), but since the bike is what's been changed-the bike get's blamed. That's a long way from the bike has a whacked out geo and is THE problem. THE problem is with Boonen's back. This particular bike doesn't help, but the problem is the back.

It's more likely that instead of being a highly tuned athlete that is hypersenstive to even the most suttle of changes, he's an athlete out of balance do to the nature of his sport (pedaling a bicycle) and falling off of it.

[atmo]

geo

2000 S-Works Tarmac SL

Size 58 61
Chainstay Length 407mm 410mm
Front Center 605mm 612mm


my free 2 cents is that the 2 isolated specs above are enough to eff
with someone's head and bike handling ability, even if the frames
were made to fit vis-a-vis the contact points atmo. are these specs
germaine to boonen's 06 and 07 mounts?

[Grant McLean]

my free 2 cents is that the 2 isolated specs above are enough to eff
with someone's head and bike handling ability, even if the frames
were made to fit vis-a-vis the contact points atmo. are these specs
germaine to boonen's 06 and 07 mounts?

no, Tommy rides a roubaix, not a Tarmac.

58 roubaix:

73' seat
72.5 head
49mm rake
trail 56
top tube 58.2
chainstay 41.8
front center 62
wheelbase 1029

The irony is that Boonen's Paris-Roubaix custom Time is pretty darn close
to the Specialized!
http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2006/apr06/roubaix06/?id=/tech/2006/features/boonen_time


Attached is the time std geo, don't know if Tom had a custom or not:
g

[regularguy412]

no, Tommy rides a roubaix, not a Tarmac.

58 roubaix:

73' seat
72.5 head
49mm rakeSeems like these two dimensions are somewhat in conflict with one another. Is there some general 'rule' for larger frames that the rake increases as frame size goes up? Is the slack HT angle an attempt to reduce any 'twitchyness' induced by a longer rake fork?
trail 56
top tube 58.2
chainstay 41.8
front center 62
wheelbase 1029

The irony is that Boonen's Paris-Roubaix custom Time is pretty darn close
to the Specialized!
http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2006/apr06/roubaix06/?id=/tech/2006/features/boonen_time


Attached is the time std geo, don't know if Tom had a custom or not:
g

<<Hijack finished>>
Mike in AR

[mosca]

The irony is that Boonen's Paris-Roubaix custom Time is pretty darn close
to the Specialized!
http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2006/apr06/roubaix06/?id=/tech/2006/features/boonen_timeAnd this Specialized geometry which is so "questionable" here seems remarkably similar to the C50 in that size. Anyone man enough to question The Maestro? Not me!

[chrisroph]

no, Tommy rides a roubaix, not a Tarmac.

58 roubaix:

73' seat
72.5 head
49mm rake
trail 56
top tube 58.2
chainstay 41.8
front center 62
wheelbase 1029

The irony is that Boonen's Paris-Roubaix custom Time is pretty darn close
to the Specialized!
http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2006/apr06/roubaix06/?id=/tech/2006/features/boonen_time


Attached is the time std geo, don't know if Tom had a custom or not:
g

interesting geo, does not look like a modern racing bike with the slack ha and the long fc.

[CNote]

interesting geo, does not look like a modern racing bike with the slack ha and the long fc.


I happen to think the Roubaix is the best designed frame in Europe. The
geometry is nearly identical to what Richard Sachs builds, how bad can
that be?
g

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=330100&postcount=8

[obtuse]

And this Specialized geometry which is so "questionable" here seems remarkably similar to the C50 in that size. Anyone man enough to question The Maestro? Not me!

a 61cm colnago does not have a stupid headtube angle.

obtuse

[mosca]

a 61cm colnago does not have a stupid headtube angle.

obtuse73.5 degrees seems fairly conventional - what makes it stupid?

[atmo]

73.5 degrees seems fairly conventional - what makes it stupid?
????????????????????????

[Fivethumbs]

I heard somewhere that Specialized put Tom on a bike and asked him if the handlebars obscured the view of the front hub. Tom replied, "Kind of." Then Specialized said, "Alright then, you're good to go!"

[atmo]

I heard somewhere that Specialized put Tom on a bike and asked him if the handlebars obscured the view of the front hub. Tom replied, "Kind of." Then Specialized said, "Alright then, you're good to go!"
that's life in the sinyard atmo.

[mosca]

????????????????????????OK, let me try this another way then. I am wondering if those of you who criticize the Specialized frame geometry would extend your criticism to the C50 with nearly identical geometry, or is there some subtle difference between the two that I am missing? Genuinely curious.

[Serotta_Andrew]

to my untraained eye, boonen's position appears to be cramped, reach-wise. would the more knowledgeable folks here chime in: would a longer TT (his stem looks preetty long as it is) put tom in a "better" position? again, my untrained eye could envision why tom's back might hurt.


the picture looks like he is on a descent, no??

[atmo]

let me try this another way -
OK, let me try this another way then. I am wondering if those of you who criticize the Specialized frame geometry would extend your criticism to the C50 with nearly identical geometry, or is there some subtle difference between the two that I am missing? Genuinely curious.

-----------
a 61cm colnago does not have a stupid headtube angle.
obtuse

73.5 degrees seems fairly conventional - what makes it stupid?
you
-----------
obtuse did not say it was stupid atmo...

[atmo]

the picture looks like he is on a descent, no??
yes - either he is descending or the camera angle
is tilted. that seat angle is too vertical atmo.

[mosca]

let me try this another way -


-----------
a 61cm colnago does not have a stupid headtube angle.
obtuse

73.5 degrees seems fairly conventional - what makes it stupid?
you
-----------
obtuse did not say it was stupid atmo...Silly me for trying to read between the lines then...

[atmo]

Silly me for trying to read between the lines then...
gimme 3 laps around the sin yard atmo.

[1centaur]

Sometimes I think the cool kids are just tormenting the linear thinkers on this forum with random half thoughts.

Sample concept:

Befuddled Poster: Why exactly are the numbers of Boonen's frames giving him problems?

Cool Kid 1: jmewkill gets it atmo

BP: I'm not jmewkill

CK2: Who is?

BP: Okay, but for example, the front center is 1 cm longer than Boonen used to ride, and the chainstays are a little longer, so what's that doing to the handling that makes him correct all the time to the detriment of his back?

CK3: It's the whole gestalt, not a number. Dario wouldn't hurt Boonen's back.

CK4: +1

....and so on for 20 extra posts.

Whether such an interchange is entertaining or frustrating depends on how my work day went. Atmo.

[mosca]

gimme 3 laps around the sin yard atmo.on the tarmac?

[swoop]

the issue (for me) isn't the geo itself .. stand alone. the issue is boonen's need for something specific and the fact that the stock geo isn't it for him.

if here were on a nago it would be custom. this is less about specialized being 'wrong' and more about guys being forced to ride bikes that are designed as much for crossover sizing rather than the individual.

the bike is bound to fit someone. just not him. some guys are robust in someways and sensitive in others. i don't know many guys in the sport that aren't working around injuries.
the bike in my size doesn't fit me.... but i know guys that love them. and i know guys that hate em.

[atmo]

Whether such an interchange is entertaining or frustrating depends on how my work day went. Atmo.
help me understand how your work day went atmo.
as far as boonen's bike(s) go, i think swoop nicely
summed up what may be the pressing issues.

[fierte_poser]

yes - either he is descending or the camera angle
is tilted. that seat angle is too vertical atmo.

Right, and last time I checked, Specialized isn't building these frames in a level TT config.

[atmo]

Right, and last time I checked, Specialized isn't building these frames in a level TT config.
there's a good photo edit on the velonews forum
by a post-er named 700x23. it sheds some light
on the pic that climb mined in post one atmo.

[Grant McLean]

the issue (for me) isn't the geo itself .. stand alone. the issue is boonen's need for something specific and the fact that the stock geo isn't it for him.

if here were on a nago it would be custom. this is less about specialized being 'wrong' and more about guys being forced to ride bikes that are designed as much for crossover sizing rather than the individual.

the bike is bound to fit someone. just not him. some guys are robust in someways and sensitive in others. i don't know many guys in the sport that aren't working around injuries.
the bike in my size doesn't fit me.... but i know guys that love them. and i know guys that hate em.

I'm down with what swoop writes here.

I'll go on record as saying that I think the Roubaix is a fantastic bike,
specialized in on to something. The head tube is a little long, but that's
a realistic thing for most of the marketplace who buys these bikes, but
obviously there is no single fit solution for everyone.

Maybe the Roubaix is wacking out Tornado Tom's equilibrim, and getting
his stuff all messed up. Maybe it's not the bike. Stuff happens. I have no
idea, but it's sure easy to blame the bike, when you really have no idea
what causes a problem. It's nice to have something to blame for your problems.

I'll also say that the C50 and roubaix are very different bikes. Their trail
numbers are very different, and the C50 chainstays are more than a cm
shorter.

All that being said... everyone should be on a custom, Serotta's for everyone!
Ride what you like!

g

[jmewkill]

gimme 3 laps around the sin yard atmo.

yeah.. and fit critiques on random 1/250 sec images with no pertinent medical or physical info has got to be worth 5 laps in the outback.

[stevep]

constructive comment.
all of boonens time frames were full custom.
dont know or have any geo but the standard geo does not really apply.
they can and do build custom frames for basicly all the pro team guys if necessary.

[swoop]

constructive comment.
all of boonens time frames were full custom.
dont know or have any geo but the standard geo does not really apply.
they can and do build custom frames for basicly all the pro team guys if necessary.

*sniff sniff* i asked gilles nicely.

[stevep]

*sniff sniff* i asked gilles nicely.

i doubt theyll do it unless you get yrself onto cofidis or boulangere.
the upside is that it will then be free.

the can of worms opened is too great.
they are not geared for production like this.

[swoop]

i doubt theyll do it unless you get yrself onto cofidis or boulangere.
the upside is that it will then be free.

the can of worms opened is too great.
they are not geared for production like this.


i knows. i'm just being cute.

[Grant McLean]

i doubt theyll do it unless you get yrself onto cofidis or boulangere.
the upside is that it will then be free.

the can of worms opened is too great.
they are not geared for production like this.

I'll take a stock small. It's perfect.
How about the **free** part?

g

[weisan]

I am not a cool kid....but rather the father of 4. This thread reminds me of Merckx, The Maestro, The "Crash"...

First, Mr. Merckx...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/20/Merckx_cover.jpg

Then, comes in Mr. Colnago...
http://alicehui.com/serotta/merckx_colnago/Colnago_merckx.jpg


And finally, the "crash" on the track in Blois - snipped from Wiki...'cos I am lazy to type.

"The blackest day in Merckx's career dates from 1969, when he crashed in a derny race towards the end of the season. A pacer and a cyclist fell in front of Merckx's pacer, Fernand Wambst, causing both Wambst and Merckx to crash. His pacer was killed instantly, and Merckx suffered a bad concussion and fell unconscious. This accident cracked a vertebra and twisted his pelvis. He admitted in interviews that, because of his injuries, his riding was never the same. He would keep adjusting his saddle while riding to make sure it had the right position, and would always be in pain, especially while climbing."

Now, draw your OWN understanding.

[atmo]

those frames show schematics of frames that are
all quite alike, dimension-wise, and the only real
telling variable is that the setback is changed on
the track frame (as would be expected), or slightly
lengthened in the tt bike spec-ed for the td belgium.
essentially, these are all 60ish by 57.5ish rigs once
the saddles and stems are affiixed.

note -
don't be mislead by the tt lengths stated as 54 something.
these would be the cut lengths, not the yield length atmo.

[weisan]

Listen to the coach. ;)

[atmo]

Listen to the coach. ;)
pay coach, but go first class atmo.

[BBB]

Isn't Boonen getting, or at least now got, a custom Specialized to help try and deal with some of these issues?

[chrisroph]

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=330100&postcount=8

72.5 ha and 62 fc are closer to cross bike numbers than euro pro road race bike numbers for a 58, quite unusual and way too long in the fc for this 57-58 rider.

[cs124]

Isn't Boonen getting, or at least now got, a custom Specialized to help try and deal with some of these issues?

Yep. I predict they give him the same old bike with the word "custom" stenciled on the top tube, along with an appointment with a swedish masseuse.

It will be the last we hear fom him on the matter but it will provide for endless navel gazing around some parts.

[yetirich]

From CN March 26th:

Boonen gets new custom bike
Former World Champion Tom Boonen - who has had back problems for four years - is to receive a custom-built from Specialized. On Sunday, the American bike manufacturer said it had given the Belgian a custom-made bike to test, in the hope that his problems will improve.

Monaco-based Boonen has now returned to his home country in preparation for the Spring Classics. "Because the races take place here now, he's staying in the country and will see a back specialist, too," Quick-Step team director 'Fitte' Peeters told Sportwereld. "Tom's back problems started in Gent-Wevelgem four years ago, when he crashed into a photographer. It remains a delicate issue, but we have it under control."

Here is the write up of today's race:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/road.php?id=road/2007/mar07/dwars07

His new bike is Black.....his old bike was red
http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/?id=/photos/2007/mar07/dwars07/Boonen_relaxed

[Chris]

Looks like another famous sprinter's "stock" specialized from the past...

[swoop]

does anybody recall me saying something to the effect of: so many of these guys.. left to their own devices.. would just prefer to be on a nice stiff custom aluminum frame?

i think the bike racing part is pretty uncomfortable for all parties involved. and the thing that reduces suffering isn't the comfort of the bike.. its the fit and the sensation that everything you do makes the bike go forward.

atmo.

[72gmc]

Good points, swoop.

From cn: "Boonen's new bike is 13mm longer than his old one." Does that make climb's guess right? Was he riding a small frame in order to get his preferred saddle-to-bar drop?

FWIW I'm not a Specialized hater. Just interested in bike fit, and the collision of marketing and reality.

[atmo]

From cn: "Boonen's new bike is 13mm longer than his old one." Does that make climb's guess right? Was he riding a small frame in order to get his preferred saddle-to-bar drop?
the longer could refer to wheelbase stuff atmo.

[mosca]

Was he riding a small frame in order to get his preferred saddle-to-bar drop?The most reasonable theory I've heard so far. On the plus side Alu's comin' back, baby!

[72gmc]

the longer could refer to wheelbase stuff atmo.

yeah, it probably does. Just piqued my interest. I am not afraid to be dumb if it draws out the smart people--thank you for proving my theory works.

[atmo]

yeah, it probably does. Just piqued my interest. I am not afraid to be dumb if it draws out the smart people--thank you for proving my theory works.
you're lucky i'm on the phone and can type
and nod my head at the same time atmo.

[jmewkill]

This could also be posturing on Boonen's part. A way to flex his marketing muscle with the new team bike sponsor. Of course Specialized need to address the issue or it becomes a pr disaster (in more ways than one)

Similar to the texan and his disinformation campaign sold as the chronicles.

[Ray]

the better conditioned the athlete.. the more finely attuned and vulnerable the body...
Sorta interesting thread, as most of these bike fit threads are. A couple of days in bed (and bath) with the stomach flu kept me from wading through until now. Basically nothing to add, but I gotta call bull***** on this line. I know a lot of riders, in person and online, and none of them - NONE are more sensitive to minute changes in position than I am. I can move my seat a couple of mm and have horrible hip/back/knee problems until I figure it out and get it fixed. Same with the bars. I've lost months of productive riding because of these kinds of things. And changes in geometry - don't get me started on that. I've been amazed at some of the bikes that I couldn't get to work for me relative to others that worked great. A friggin' princess I seem to be, of the hairy male variety.

And no part of 'the better conditioned the athlete' applies to me. I'm a tourist. I ride plus or minus 5,000 miles per year. I go hard occasionally, but probably not by many of your standards, and I don't do it with any structure or thought at all - just when I feel like it. I'm contentedly slow. It just doesn't apply. Perhaps the body is finely attuned. DEFINITELY the body is vulnerable. But its rarely particularly well conditioned. And laughably not in comparison with Boonen and his ilk.

-Ray

[atmo]

question -
<snipped> Basically nothing to add, but I gotta call bull***** on this line. I know a lot of riders, in person and online, and none of them - NONE are more sensitive to minute changes in position than I am. I can move my seat a couple of mm and have horrible hip/back/knee problems until I figure it out and get it fixed. Same with the bars. I've lost months of productive riding because of these kinds of things. And changes in geometry - don't get me started on that. I've been amazed at some of the bikes that I couldn't get to work for me relative to others that worked great. A friggin' princess I seem to be, of the hairy male variety.<cut>



-Ray
but why would you move your seat a couple of mm (and then
have horrible hip/back/knee problems until you figure it out and
get it fixed.)? you've been riding a long time, and 5,000mi a
year is nothing to sneeze at. why not keep the position that is
your position, and leave the adjusting to others who are not
as seasoned? just curious atmo.

[Ray]

question -

but why would you move your seat a couple of mm (and then
have horrible hip/back/knee problems until you figure it out and
get it fixed.)? you've been riding a long time, and 5,000mi a
year is nothing to sneeze at. why not keep the position that is
your position, and leave the adjusting to others who are not
as seasoned? just curious atmo.
I didn't just move the seat. I tried new pedals. Adjusted for the difference in stack height but not enough. Diagnosed the problem as having to do with float characteristics rather than leg extension and then tried yet another type of pedal. Couldn't get that nailed either. Finally went back to the old style Looks (which I've been riding forever), got the saddle dialed back in and all was well again. Changing pedals, when nothing was broke, was a really really bad idea to begin with. I understand that. I reserve the right to be stupid at least 2-3 times per year :cool:

-Ray

[atmo]

I didn't just move the seat. I tried new pedals. Adjusted for the difference in stack height but not enough. Diagnosed the problem as having to do with float characteristics rather than leg extension and then tried yet another type of pedal. Couldn't get that nailed either. Finally went back to the old style Looks (which I've been riding forever), got the saddle dialed back in and all was well again. Changing pedals, when nothing was broke, was a really really bad idea to begin with. I understand that. I reserve the right to be stupid at least 2-3 times per year :cool:

-Ray
back to the evening news atmo -
i'd wager boonen did not change his position. if he did
change his position, it was evolutionary, and not because
he switched brands. his bicycle did change though, and
as has been noted, the right position on the wrong bicycle
is not always tolerated, especially by these finely tuned
athletes stmo.

ps -
luv your initials atmo.

[Ray]

ps -
luv your initials atmo.
I might be willing to rent them out to the right bidder.

[swoop]

Sorta interesting thread, as most of these bike fit threads are. A couple of days in bed (and bath) with the stomach flu kept me from wading through until now. Basically nothing to add, but I gotta call bull***** on this line. I know a lot of riders, in person and online, and none of them - NONE are more sensitive to minute changes in position than I am. I can move my seat a couple of mm and have horrible hip/back/knee problems until I figure it out and get it fixed. Same with the bars. I've lost months of productive riding because of these kinds of things. And changes in geometry - don't get me started on that. I've been amazed at some of the bikes that I couldn't get to work for me relative to others that worked great. A friggin' princess I seem to be, of the hairy male variety.

And no part of 'the better conditioned the athlete' applies to me. I'm a tourist. I ride plus or minus 5,000 miles per year. I go hard occasionally, but probably not by many of your standards, and I don't do it with any structure or thought at all - just when I feel like it. I'm contentedly slow. It just doesn't apply. Perhaps the body is finely attuned. DEFINITELY the body is vulnerable. But its rarely particularly well conditioned. And laughably not in comparison with Boonen and his ilk.

-Ray

you mean one thing and i mean the other. a ferrari tune up is a different thing than a jetta. the better shape i am in .. the less robust i am when things aren't right. that's different than the princess and the pea.

[obtuse]

for the hundreth time; boonen's problem with his bike was not his "fit"...the seat, the pedals, and the handlebars were all in the same place on the bike that sucked as they were on the bike from last year that didn't suck. the issue was that the bike did not handle right with boonen on it because it wasn't designed properly. the new bike does- most people who spend alot of time on their bikes don't change their position much; and if they do it certainly isn't because someone else wants their logo on your jersey. there is not one instance that i can think of where a pro-cyclist changed their position due to sponsorship changes.

obtuse

[bozman]

Also getting a free new bike is Tom Boonen, the Belgian road sprinter who has been ailing with backaches since his Quick Step team switched bike sponsors from Time to Specialized this season. Although Boonen originally hurt his back in a crash four seasons ago, it's thought that his team-issue bike has been playing a role in the revival of discomfort. So Specialized customized a frame with a 13-mm longer top tube, and Boonen received it on Sunday after Milan-San Remo. Yesterday he rode it a sprint victory in the Across Flanders road race, his seventh win of the season. "I just had to thank my new bike," Boonen told the Associated Press. "It gave me no back problems whatsoever."

[Climb01742]

if the TT on his new bike is 13mm longer, would it be a safe assumption that this was done to get his bars 13mm farther forward? i know it's usually stupid to disagree with obtuse, but a change a TT_seems_to say he is trying to get his bar contact point where he wants it, no? the stem on the first photo i posted looks long, maybe a 140. to get an additional 13mm of reach, even a deda 150 wouldn't do it. i may be totally wrong here but it_seems_his new bike is trying to allow him to achieve his old fit, no?

[Ray]

if the TT on his new bike is 13mm longer, would it be a safe assumption that this was done to get his bars 13mm farther forward? i know it's usually stupid to disagree with obtuse, but a change a TT_seems_to say he is trying to get his bar contact point where he wants it, no? the stem on the first photo i posted looks long, maybe a 140. to get an additional 13mm of reach, even a deda 150 wouldn't do it. i may be totally wrong here but it_seems_his new bike is trying to allow him to achieve his old fit, no?
It might have just been to extend the front center and make the bike handle right. He may have shortened the stem to compensate, keeping the position the same but changing the handling.

To illustrate - I once had a Bike Friday and I'd dialed the position in to the friggin' MM so it was exactly the same as on my most comfortable bike. And that bike friday KILLED my back. I couldn't ride it more than 30-40 miles without screaming pain. I always figured it was a combination of the geometry and those busy little wheels that would turn-in on any provocation that made me spend more energy keeping the thing going in a straight line and kept me from really being able to relax my back like I can on a bike that handles right. Same exact position - very different 'comfort' experience. Could be what's going on with Boonen.

FWIW, I've heard similar stories from other Friday owners - same position but lots of back problems. They're just very quick and require a fair amount of attention. The way a bike handles has a lot to do with perceived comfort.

-Ray

[atmo]

if the TT on his new bike is 13mm longer, would it be a safe assumption that this was done to get his bars 13mm farther forward? i know it's usually stupid to disagree with obtuse, but a change a TT_seems_to say he is trying to get his bar contact point where he wants it, no? the stem on the first photo i posted looks long, maybe a 140. to get an additional 13mm of reach, even a deda 150 wouldn't do it. i may be totally wrong here but it_seems_his new bike is trying to allow him to achieve his old fit, no?
i read the roadbiker.com piece and ray's post above. and here
is my pov: the culprit was the frame geo and not the fit issue.
certainly tb could assimilate a fit on the specialized, but the
troubles came from how the bicycle worked. to circumvent
this, adding 13mm to a stem would make no sense since the
front end was already (too) short. lengthening it (by dint of
a longer reach) without using the stem as a crutch, is/was
the antidote atmo. the reach and the front end are parts of
the whole, as was courtney love, and should not be thought
of as separate frame specs.

[bozman]

the reach and the front end are parts of
the whole, as was courtney love...

A fantastic reference!

Maybe she could help fix Boonen's back problems...

[atmo]

A fantastic reference!

Maybe she could help fix Boonen's back problems...
the issue here is the front center atmo.

[edouard]

for the hundreth time; boonen's problem with his bike was not his "fit"...the seat, the pedals, and the handlebars were all in the same place on the bike that sucked as they were on the bike from last year that didn't suck. the issue was that the bike did not handle right with boonen on it because it wasn't designed properly. the new bike does- most people who spend alot of time on their bikes don't change their position much; and if they do it certainly isn't because someone else wants their logo on your jersey. there is not one instance that i can think of where a pro-cyclist changed their position due to sponsorship changes.

obtuse

devil's advocate...


so was it a custom made for him? if not, if it was an off-the-shelf model, then perhaps 'we' could say that his contacts points are not meant for this design (visa-versa works too). this design may be spot on for other riders... no? ... not necessarily designed improperly.

again, perhaps prior injury HAS tweaked his position, in such that
if he hadn't been hurt this particular 'improper' design would function as desired.


if it is an off-the-shelf-model, and perhaps even if not,
who designs the bikes at specialized? surely not a bunch of wacko-provo-bound-geeks

[swoop]

the tubesets were off the shelf. the goe is not. the bike is made for him.
i know plenty of guys riding custom bikes using the company's signature shaped tubesets...that says nothing about who built it.

but no.. this isn't off the shelf and isn't a big deal at all.

[edouard]

thanks swoopster.

and now back to the olympia prom...

[chrisroph]

Based on the pics over at velonews, it looks like tom's contact points were not the same. It looks like he had a shorter reach on the spec carbon.

It also appears that the f-c on the spec carbon was shorter than the new al bike or the times. Thus, it appears that his problems were exacerbated by a position change and a geo change.

It is hard to believe that tom would ride a bike with a tt that was 13mm too short. That is a huge and unacceptable difference.

[Grant McLean]

if it is an off-the-shelf-model, and perhaps even if not,
who designs the bikes at specialized? surely not a bunch of wacko-provo-bound-geeks

It's a custom geometry 1-off bike.

Andy Jacques-Maynes is the road bike product manager at Specialized.
Yes, Specialized is a company that actual people work at, it's not just
a big corporation with computers. Andy is a kick *** rider, as is his
brother Ben. Being a busy guy, (it's a global brand!), there are also staff
who deal specifically with the team riders needs.

Specialized, like any company, can produce a prototype or custom geometry
bike in aluminum easily, given the freedom of tig welding any size or angle
tube without any limits. Producing a carbon frame with their current construction
just takes more time, but it's completely possible.

g

[mosca]

So to play devil's advocate once again, why didn't Boonen just go to the next size up in the carbon frame? And, are the carbon frames completely non-customizable, geometry-wise? :confused:

[Climb01742]

my guess is the HT would have been too long.

[RPS]

It might have just been to extend the front center and make the bike handle right. He may have shortened the stem to compensate, keeping the position the same but changing the handling.

To illustrate - I once had a Bike Friday and I'd dialed the position in to the friggin' MM so it was exactly the same as on my most comfortable bike. And that bike friday KILLED my back. I couldn't ride it more than 30-40 miles without screaming pain. I always figured it was a combination of the geometry and those busy little wheels that would turn-in on any provocation that made me spend more energy keeping the thing going in a straight line and kept me from really being able to relax my back like I can on a bike that handles right. Same exact position - very different 'comfort' experience. Could be what's going on with Boonen.

FWIW, I've heard similar stories from other Friday owners - same position but lots of back problems. They're just very quick and require a fair amount of attention. The way a bike handles has a lot to do with perceived comfort.
-RayRay, with all due respect, I can’t follow your analogy with a Bike Friday. It may be possible that a bike which requires a lot of attention may keep the rider tense all the time, which could lead to muscular fatigue and soreness, but in the case of a Bike Friday with small wheels; it’s far more likely IMHO that any back problems would be associated with the harsher ride. Impact loads are simply much higher with smaller wheels; something to avoid more so with a bad back.

[coylifut]

So to play devil's advocate once again, why didn't Boonen just go to the next size up in the carbon frame? And, are the carbon frames completely non-customizable, geometry-wise? :confused:

I was told by a Giant employee that such molds cost somewhere in the neighborhood of 35k to produce. For those of you in the know, does that sound like a reasonable figure? It shocked me.

[yeehawfactor]

I was told by a Giant employee that such molds cost somewhere in the neighborhood of 35k to produce. For those of you in the know, does that sound like a reasonable figure? It shocked me.
coupla trek guys have said that machinery to make lugs for each size frame is several hundred thousand. fwiw.

[pdxmech13]

true story.......

[Grant McLean]

are the carbon frames completely non-customizable, geometry-wise? :confused:

Specialized has two methods of making carbon frames.
1) is a 3 piece monocoque, made from a front triangle, and two rear wishbones.

2) In the AZ1 process, each tube is formed by istelf, as a single cured tube,
and then all the tubes are assembled and wrapped.

Both processes require special fixtures, molds, and assembly procedures
and the correct size, shape, spec pieces of carbon cloth to manufature.
Unlike Serotta, which makes 1 carbon frame at a time, the process specialized
uses is much more like assembling a car or piece of electonics in an assembly
process set up for volume production.

Lots of photos and info here:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/sponsors/specialized/2006/FACT_Final_opt-1.pdf

Making 1 custom carbon frame would require a special set of molds, changes
in tooling, and these are just to change the geometry. The layup of the
carbon can be individualized as well. And it's expensive, and time consuming.

For all these reasons, Serotta chose a totally different route to be able to
offer customized carbon. If the priority is on being able to change the geo
from stock sizes, Serotta has a great system. If making hundreds or thousands
of identical frames in stock sizes for production, it's not very efficient, and
therefore difficult and expensive.

Tig welding an aluminum frame was the best solution for the short term to
get Boonen on a custom frame quickly.

g

[swoop]

guys.. no one changes their points of contact. even at my semi retarded level i can rattle them off like my phone number and they remain the same no matter what bike company or little team i'm able to con my way onto year to year.

this has been overthunk the great effect in this thread. all that happened is that a guy that's been riding custom geo was asked to ride stock geo. he chose the stock frame that would alow the points of contact to be replicated in the most efficient manner.

the custom frame gets him to the points of contact in a way his body and brain are familiar with.
the custom frame could me made of steel, bamboo, fiberglass, hair and stardust. it doesn't matter... as long as its stiff enough and the measurements are correct.

and the problem is solved. this is the very reason i feel better on a custom frame rather than a stock one. it isn't a statement about anything but how ones body deals with things. it isn't a big deal and way to much is being read into it.


essentially the balance point of the bike is different on his custom. his body doesn't have to adapt tho the balance point.. rather the frame puts it where his body needs it.. and so it doesn't strain some core and back muscles. it just inst a big deal.

the dude is a fairly finely tuned instrument. little things mean a lot. his races are longer than 90 minutes..small things become big things.
what we are talking about here is the tailoring..
that's really all that matters.

i don't know if they will need to make the bike carbon for marketing reasons. carbon isn't better than aluminum.. its just different. if they feel they need to make the frame carbon.. they can prototype a wood mold. they'll only be able to get a few frames out of the mold but the tooling costs less.

there is no reason from a functionality point of veiw for the frame to be made out of carbon. all that is less important than the fit.

i'm sure he'll be on a different custom frame for the cobbled classics like p/r. something with a longer wheel base and rubber inserts. they have the budget.... and they can find a way to market it.

[mosca]

Thanks, Grant - that's great info. And I still think the Alu bike looks cool - cool like a tool. :D

[swoop]

boonens new position: his back works better if he rides with his head below the bottom bracket. you should try it. i think rosie odonnel taught him how.

[Ray]

Ray, with all due respect, I can’t follow your analogy with a Bike Friday. It may be possible that a bike which requires a lot of attention may keep the rider tense all the time, which could lead to muscular fatigue and soreness, but in the case of a Bike Friday with small wheels; it’s far more likely IMHO that any back problems would be associated with the harsher ride. Impact loads are simply much higher with smaller wheels; something to avoid more so with a bad back.
Maybe that was it. Maybe it was a combination of impact and handling, although I was using relatively fat tires on the Friday because of that issue. I guess the same impact issue is there with a shorter wheelbase as well, if to a lesser degree. I guess I was just reinforcing what others had said that there's more to comfort than matching contact points - the way the bike rides and handles also affects it and I'd include the roughness of the ride in that equation.

-Ray

[stevep]

I was told by a Giant employee that such molds cost somewhere in the neighborhood of 35k to produce. For those of you in the know, does that sound like a reasonable figure? It shocked me.

coy, thats a production mold... will make many hundreds of frames. the same stuff can be made by hand for one off stuff...too time consuming for production but no problem for a few "special" bikes.
time lugs are made by hand and i assume that crumpton, parlee, etc do the same..just takes longer.
like boonens bike friday coming next week.
id be very surprised if he was not on a carbon one off in a week or 2.

[RPS]

Maybe that was it. Maybe it was a combination of impact and handling, although I was using relatively fat tires on the Friday because of that issue. I guess the same impact issue is there with a shorter wheelbase as well, if to a lesser degree. I guess I was just reinforcing what others had said that there's more to comfort than matching contact points - the way the bike rides and handles also affects it and I'd include the roughness of the ride in that equation.

-RayRay, I know it's not a popular opinion, but as I've stated before, I honestly think that fatter tires can increase shock/impact loads under certain conditions unless the pressure is reduced substantially.

[yeehawfactor]

coy, thats a production mold... will make many hundreds of frames. the same stuff can be made by hand for one off stuff...too time consuming for production but no problem for a few "special" bikes.
time lugs are made by hand and i assume that crumpton, parlee, etc do the same..just takes longer.
like boonens bike friday coming next week.
id be very surprised if he was not on a carbon one off in a week or 2.
exactly, hence the more oldschool(in style) lugs-none of that integrated top tube double wishbone shtuff