View Full Version : Pro Race 23's vs. 25's
weaponsgrade
03-25-2007, 09:05 PM
Trying to get an idea of what size tire people are riding. My tire of choice for years has been the Michelin Pro Race in a 23. But in the Oct. 2006 edition of Vintage Bicycle Quarterly they reported that the 25's were faster, in addition to being more comfortable. So, I'm in need of new tires and want to know whether you've found 25's to be faster than the 23's.
dave thompson
03-25-2007, 09:09 PM
25s faster than 23s? Perhaps. More comfortable? Definitely! The Thompson herd has switched all the tires to 25. No downside that I can determine.
AgilisMerlin
03-25-2007, 09:11 PM
i ride the 23's
the 25's rub the top of my reynolds carbon fork.
David Kirk
03-25-2007, 09:12 PM
25's with 100psi rear and 90 front. Fast and smooth on our MT chipseal.
Dave
Moosedryvr
03-25-2007, 09:16 PM
Just switched from 23s to 25s and don't see myself going back any time soon. Also ride 90 f/100 r and am digging the new feel with no perceived drawbacks (other than no all black option with the Michelin, may try the new Vittoria EVO 25s next).
Shawn G.
Been using the 25s for a couple of years, if you can fit them, use them. The ride becomes less jarring vs 23s with absolutety no loss of speed.
SoCalSteve
03-25-2007, 11:15 PM
i ride the 23's
the 25's rub the top of my reynolds carbon fork.
I have 3 or 4 Ouzo Pro forks on bikes and all use Michelin Pro Race 25's with out any clearence problems at all.
Im kind of surprised that you say that. Is it a 1" version? Or maybe an Ouzo Comp?
Just askin'
Steve
PS: I switched a couple years back and also switched on my wife's Merlin (with Ouzo Pro fork) and both of us will never go back.
vaxn8r
03-25-2007, 11:32 PM
Trying to get an idea of what size tire people are riding. My tire of choice for years has been the Michelin Pro Race in a 23. But in the Oct. 2006 edition of Vintage Bicycle Quarterly they reported that the 25's were faster, in addition to being more comfortable. So, I'm in need of new tires and want to know whether you've found 25's to be faster than the 23's.
Depends on what your use is. I use both. The 23 is not a harsh tire. It's fairly round and rolls very well. They feel fast. If you need a 25 the Pro Race are great as well. You can't go wrong.
bironi
03-25-2007, 11:33 PM
25's :beer:
Ti Designs
03-25-2007, 11:57 PM
Trying to get an idea of what size tire people are riding. My tire of choice for years has been the Michelin Pro Race in a 23. But in the Oct. 2006 edition of Vintage Bicycle Quarterly they reported that the 25's were faster, in addition to being more comfortable. So, I'm in need of new tires and want to know whether you've found 25's to be faster than the 23's.
I've never even considered reading Vintage Bicycle Quarterly to see which parts are faster...
As for tires, the parameters aren't that hard to understand. If you're talking about rolling on a glass smooth surface, the thinnest, highest pressure tires would win every roll out test. In the real world, road surface isn't that smooth, and there are adheasion/traction issues to deal with as well. There's a simple question, which one takes more energy, deflecting the tire surface or lifting the weight of the whole bike? If a bike is rolling down the road and it hits a 1cm object, the tire will either deflect and allow the weight of the bike to continue in it's path, or it will life the path by 1cm, or find something between those two. If it takes less energy to deflect the time, at that instant there is an energy savings over the thinner, higher pressure tires. If the road surface is made up of these deviations in level, the larger tires will be faster (waste less energy) and feel less abusive on the rider as well.
I've never even considered reading Vintage Bicycle Quarterly to see which parts are faster...
It's now Bicycle Quarterly as the focus has changed slightly.
The jury is still out as to the statistical significance of their tests (see the newsgroup rec.bicycles.tech for details), but they have put a lot of thought into them and came out with some results that surprised them.
Orin.
Erik.Lazdins
03-26-2007, 08:07 AM
I weigh 180 and ride the 25mm tire inflated to 95 on the rear and 90 on the front. The tires are great - a bit more cushion than the 23mm, seemingly tougher tread (less cracks), and seemingly better flat resistance. The 25s are on a Serotta with an F2 fork.
I recall reading the difference between 23 and 25mm is a slight aerodynamic advantage provided you have the capacity to ride over 20 mph.
mcteague
03-26-2007, 08:16 AM
I used Michelin 23s for years and bought two pair of PR2s last Summer. The 25s seem much smoother and a lot less jarring. I, too, run about 100psi on the back and 90 on the front and I weigh 160lbs. While there is not a lot of clearance with my Ouzo Pro fork there are no rubbing issues. I did notice that the 25s seem to have an odd texture that can almost be called a tread, unlike the 23s.
Tim McTeague
93legendti
03-26-2007, 08:27 AM
I must have a bum pair. I rode new PR2 25's yesterday at 90psi and my back hurts today. Guess I will try them at 80psi today and see. Same wheels with Veloflex Pave 22c tires at 95psi and the ride is much better: smoother and less ouch factor over bumps. Over smooth-ish roads the PR2's are nice enough, but over the many bumps, cracks, pot holes and broken roads in Oakland County, Michigan--ouch!
FWIW, I don't see how a tire that is as hard to the touch like the PR2 is supposed to give a smoother, more comfortable ride than a supple tire like the Pave or Conti 4000.
michael white
03-26-2007, 08:27 AM
the only problem with 25's is availability and choice of color.
otherwise, I see no reason for 23's personally.
Jeff N.
03-26-2007, 08:32 AM
Michelin Pro-2 Race. 23's exclusively. Tried out Specialized Mondo S-Works and liked 'em, (they'll take 130PSI) but went back to Michelin's. I always fill close to the max before a ride. Jeff N.
Blackbird
03-26-2007, 08:59 AM
I used Pro 2 Race 23's all last year, I was getting beat up a bit on my Alu bike. I just switched to Specialized Roubaix S-Works 290TPI 23/25. The tire is a 25 but has a 23 rolling surface. I run them at 120 PSI and get a super smooth ride.
Sandy
03-26-2007, 09:03 AM
Continental GP 4000 700x25, f 95, r 105. Great tires. I see no advantage of the 700x23 over the 700x25, except a slight aero one, which is meaningless to me. The comfort is much better in the 25, and the handling seems improved too, with the front end of the bike being more planted and stable.
The Michelin Man
I am almost sure that I will never use a 700x23 again.
Karin Kirk
03-26-2007, 09:43 AM
I'll admit it. I'm vain. I choose the PR2 23s because they come in sweet light blue that matches my bike rediculously well. :)
I had the 25s on my last bike and enjoyed them, but I also like the crisper feeling of the 23s. Then again, I'm comparing them on two different bikes, so it's not a fair comparison.
Too Tall
03-26-2007, 09:48 AM
M. Pro Race 25's are the best clincher I've ever used on the tandem. I *think they are faster based on a well known long fast downhill. Compared to Conti or Veredestine 25's the Pro race seem to consistently roll 2 mph faster at the bottom of this hill....not very scientific :rolleyes: GREAT quality and generous volume and DBRK approved...wadddayahwant???
vaxn8r
03-26-2007, 10:26 AM
M. Pro Race 25's are the best clincher I've ever used on the tandem. I *think they are faster based on a well known long fast downhill. Compared to Conti or Veredestine 25's the Pro race seem to consistently roll 2 mph faster at the bottom of this hill....not very scientific :rolleyes: GREAT quality and generous volume and DBRK approved...wadddayahwant???
Thta's what I'm talking about. They feel wicked fast.
I can’t help but think that rider weight has to play a major part in this comparison. I’d expect a 120 pound lady riding the same tire at the same pressure to have a significantly different experience than a 200 pound guy.
For me the main benefit of riding larger tires is being able to run lower pressure without risking pinch flats. When I’ve tried 25s and even 28s at the same pressure that I run 23s (in the 100 PSI range), the ride was about the same over rough chip and seal pavement but much more jarring over larger imperfections like pot holes, tracks, etc…. I’ve also had the same experience with my tandems – larger tires at high pressure are too jarring.
As it affects me, it’s as much or more about tire pressure than tire size -- decreasing pressure on the 23s has about the same effect on ride quality as running larger tires at that same lower pressure. And in all honesty, rolling resistance is such a small part of the total that I can’t say I can tell the difference – or at least I don’t worry about it.
Bittersweet
03-26-2007, 10:57 AM
I switched to PR25s from PR23s last year and I like them more than enough not to switch back. I also really like the 23 Grips if you find them on sale. I use them for everyday not just in rain and they do really "Grip".
If they fit go 25s as the pros outweigh the cons.
davids
03-26-2007, 11:18 AM
the only problem with 25's is availability and choice of color.
otherwise, I see no reason for 23's personally.
Yep. I really like the PR2s.
I'd try the 25s, but they don't come in red & black. I'm willing to suffer for fashion.
learlove
03-26-2007, 01:19 PM
seems like 23's are out and 25's are all the rage these days. All too common in this sport we call cycling - fads and rages that is. How ironic they "cycling".
Back in my racing days 700by20 or 19's were the fad of the day. I had a 19 on the front and 20 on the rear of my cannondale race bike.
bottom line is to get out and ride, find out what works for you and what doesn't.
I remember being unable to believe how much more comfy i was riding a Fuji Del Ray touring bike that i had converted to a cross rig on
long(er) hilly/rolling rides than my cannondale 3.0 with dura ace. Hey thats not supposed to be right, that there cannonadle is a pure race machine, high end parts and all. How can I be faster on an old steel touring rig with sugino and suntour parts? Hey whatever works - now get out and ride.
I'll admit it. I'm vain. I choose the PR2 23s because they come in sweet light blue that matches my bike rediculously well. :)...
you haven't found a source for light blue bar tape have you? I have a pair of PR2 LE's in light blue I would like to match.... :cool:
dave thompson
03-26-2007, 02:18 PM
you haven't found a source for light blue bar tape have you? I have a pair of PR2 LE's in light blue I would like to match.... :cool:
Ozz:
How's this color? Cinelli light blue.
Karin Kirk
03-26-2007, 02:49 PM
you haven't found a source for light blue bar tape have you? I have a pair of PR2 LE's in light blue I would like to match.... :cool:
No, I'm sticking with black bar tape, lest I overdo it. However I'm still looking for a perfect light blue jersey to match my shoes and socks ;)
You know you've definitely gone too far when you match the color/flavor of your energy drink to your bike. In a clear bottle, some of those drinks are rather interesting colors. Even I haven't gone that far!
davids
03-26-2007, 02:54 PM
Ozz:
How's this color? Cinelli light blue.
Ooh. It looks good with the Spectanium frame.
Ozz:
How's this color? Cinelli light blue.
That could work...thanks. Where did you get it?
palincss
03-26-2007, 03:09 PM
I've never even considered reading Vintage Bicycle Quarterly to see which parts are faster...
Then maybe it's time you started. The name's been changed to Bicycle Quarterly because too many people had the wrong idea about the scope. It's not Classic Rendezvous in hard copy, not at all.
Modern bikes and equipment are tested along with vintage gear. The articles on derailleurs included ones from the 1930s on up to current models. Funny thing, though: in some cases, the 1939 model outperformed the 2006 models.
ChrisK
03-26-2007, 03:17 PM
I've been using the 25s for years on my old race bike and love them. Small changes in tire pressure do not measurably effect speed, so with 25s you can ride at 80 or 90 psi and be more comfortable without the risk of pinch flats. It can also be argued that wider and more supple tires are faster that hard narrow ones on pavement. The BQ article points out that most tire tests are done on smooth rollers which do not reflect the real world, unless you ride on smooth metal roads I suppose. That article was very good and well worth reading, twice.
dirtdigger88
03-26-2007, 03:21 PM
I have several sets of PR25s on various rims
On my CSi- I have 25 out back and 23 up front (F1 fork)
I will agree that the two tires at the same pressure - feel different
I run less in my 25s (80-90) than my 23s (110)
Jason
vaxn8r
03-26-2007, 03:48 PM
I'm pretty sure the PR 25's have a max PSI rating of 95 psi. The PR 23's go much higher than that but don't recall the number.
Basically you're not supposed to be running 110-120 on PR 25's anyway.
thejen12
03-26-2007, 07:47 PM
I can’t help but think that rider weight has to play a major part in this comparison. I’d expect a 120 pound lady riding the same tire at the same pressure to have a significantly different experience than a 200 pound guy.
Speaking of which, what pressure would you recommend for a comfy ride for a 120 lb. lady riding the Michelin 25s?
Thanks! Jenn
Simon Q
03-26-2007, 07:54 PM
I weigh 180 and ride the 25mm tire inflated to 95 on the rear and 90 on the front. The tires are great - a bit more cushion than the 23mm, seemingly tougher tread (less cracks), and seemingly better flat resistance. The 25s are on a Serotta with an F2 fork.
I recall reading the difference between 23 and 25mm is a slight aerodynamic advantage provided you have the capacity to ride over 20 mph.
You have hit on a good point re aerodynamics. Obviously tje front tyre in particular has to cut through the wind and the thinner it is the less turbulence it creates. I have read (I think on both Zipp and Conti websites) that 23s may give best blend of aero and rolling res so I have gone back to 23s (GP 4000) and been very happy. I have carbon wheels, Councours CS and Aliante saddle so it is a plush ride that may take up some of the 23s harshness and my rides tend to be shorter at high tempo so aero is more of a factor. If I was a tourer I would be on 25s.
Speaking of which, what pressure would you recommend for a comfy ride for a 120 lb. lady riding the Michelin 25s?
Thanks! JennJenn, IMO much of this is driven not only by personal preferences but also circumstances; like what kind of roads your ride, your bike type, whether you are training or racing, whether you ride light or heavy on your bike, etc…. Solely from a comfort standpoint, the lower the pressure within reason the nicer the ride; but if you go too low handling will be adversely affected (think of what your bike feels like when you are getting a flat) as will rolling resistance.
Personally I think that in general a tire contact patch that is longer and narrower is slightly superior than one that is shorter and wider (strictly a personal preference) because it tends to distribute tire loads better in the direction of travel. For that reason I think that when riders use tires that are too wide along with too much pressure for their weight, they will experience greater shock loads when they hit things like expansion joints, pot holes, tracks, cattle guards, etc…
Since much heavier riders can get by with as little as 80 to 90 PSI using 25s (as an example I can successfully run 80 PSI on my 23s and I weight between 150 and 160), unless you are prone to pinch flats I’d suggest starting in the 80 PSI range and vary pressure up and down from there in 5 PSI increments to see what works best for you. Experimenting can be fun; and ultimately it comes down to what you like best.
Personally I think that in general a tire contact patch that is longer and narrower is slightly superior than one that is shorter and wider (strictly a personal preference) because it tends to distribute tire loads better in the direction of travel. For that reason I think that when riders use tires that are too wide along with too much pressure for their weight, they will experience greater shock loads when they hit things like expansion joints, pot holes, tracks, cattle guards, etc…
I don't think the contact patch is going to straddle a cattle guard whatever bicycle tire you are using...
Comfort comes down to how much the tire deflects vertically - and that depends on pressure (excluding tires with stiff sidewalls and/or really thick tread). Wider tires allow you to run less pressure without the risk of pinch flats.
Orin.
I don't think the contact patch is going to straddle a cattle guard whatever bicycle tire you are using...
Comfort comes down to how much the tire deflects vertically - and that depends on pressure (excluding tires with stiff sidewalls and/or really thick tread). Wider tires allow you to run less pressure without the risk of pinch flats.
Orin.Obviously, but that’s not how I look at it. I’m not thinking in terms of straddling pipes on 6-inch centers. I’m looking at it from the point of view of how the geometry of two separate tires affect maximum forces as the tires roll from one pipe to the next. And it is my opinion that narrower tires at the same pressure will deflect more and will lessen impact loads. The limiting factor is bottoming out, but we are all in agreement there. Anyway, we are only talking about 23s versus 25s, not like putting tractor tires on a bike, right?
chrisroph
03-27-2007, 08:39 AM
If max comfort is your goal --dare I say it--tubulars are the way to go. A nic veloflex or vittoria is way more comfortable than a PR2 25.
93legendti
03-27-2007, 08:42 AM
I'm pretty sure the PR 25's have a max PSI rating of 95 psi. The PR 23's go much higher than that but don't recall the number.
Basically you're not supposed to be running 110-120 on PR 25's anyway.
My PR2's sidewalls say the range is 73-102 psi. Not sure about the PR. In any event, I tried 80 psi yesterday and quickly turned around and put on a wheelset with Veloflex Pave's pumped up to 95psi. My back was very happy. :)
If max comfort is your goal --dare I say it--tubulars are the way to go. A nic veloflex or vittoria is way more comfortable than a PR2 25.
Let's say, a veloflex roubaix, which is a true 24, at reasonable pressure. Smooth.
dirtdigger88
03-27-2007, 09:26 AM
If max comfort is your goal --dare I say it--tubulars are the way to go. A nic veloflex or vittoria is way more comfortable than a PR2 25.
agreed- but neither tire holds a candle to the PR2 for durability- I own all or the aboved mentioned tires- trust me
I just installed a set of Tufo Elite 25 tubulars- very nice as well- but I think they will hold up better than the veloflex or the vittorias
jason
dirtdigger88
03-27-2007, 09:27 AM
.
jason
chrisroph
03-27-2007, 09:46 AM
agreed- but neither tire holds a candle to the PR2 for durability- I own all or the aboved mentioned tires- trust me
I just installed a set of Tufo Elite 25 tubulars- very nice as well- but I think they will hold up better than the veloflex or the vittorias
jason
I like the PR's just fine. I've got a bunch of miles out of a set of the 23's on some 32 OP 14-15 brass centaur handbuilts. I rode em a bunch a couple years ago in the summer, rode the wheels for the entire bicycle tour of colorado, and have been using the rear as a winter wheel for a while. They are very high volume for 23's, are quite smooth and comfortable and have been incredibly durable although they are getting to the end of their life. My point only was that, with all the talk of comfort, tubies are more comfortable. Clinchers are of course more convenient and I ride them most of the time. The PR's are a great tire and I just got a pair of 23 PR2's for about $23 per tire, very good value and much cheaper than you will ever find a good tubular tire.
agreed- but neither tire holds a candle to the PR2 for durability- I own all or the aboved mentioned tires- trust me
I just installed a set of Tufo Elite 25 tubulars- very nice as well- but I think they will hold up better than the veloflex or the vittorias
jason
Maybe--the veloflex roubaix is not what I'd call a heavy duty tire, but I have gotten pretty good wear out of it; the vittoria evo pave tubular is, if not as supple, nonetheless a nice riding 25 that does seem built to last--I've been running a set on my fixed gear bike for over a year now.
dirtdigger88
03-27-2007, 12:09 PM
the vittoria evo pave tubular is, if not as supple, nonetheless a nice riding 25 that does seem built to last--
but for now at least- these tires are a very ugly green- IMHO
it they make a tubular version of the clinchers I just picked up - Im in tubular bliss
Jason
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