NAHBS 09 Questions

[NAHBS]

Howdy Folks,

I am a bit confused about some cities qualifying as "East Coast".

For example, I know Philly is in Eastern PA and is within a hundred miles or so of the ocean, so thats "east coast", however, Pittsburgh is still in the same state but is a few hundred miles away from the Atlantic, so is that more "midwest" or is it still east?

Where, geographically speaking, is the cutoff of "east coast" versus "midwest"?

I am sending out my "feelers" for 09 and beyond.

I like the possibilities in a few cities in PA, Maryland and NY, although I think a virtual central point in VA might be the way to go...anyone have any feedback on the VA idea (ONLY)?

DW

[atmo]

after one trip to the midwest followed by three to the far west,
it'll be a pleasure to stay in the east for at least three contiguous
shows. atmo east is anywhere i can drive in less than eight hours,
even though i might fly.


hey - thanks for asking.

[Smiley]

+1 for atmo

DW , the lure of crab cakes can't get you down to Charm City (BALTIMORE). They have a Civic Center a Convention Center, AMTRAK and BWI airport along with being a Southwest hub city. Please consider Baltimore :hello:

[manet]

t-town .... ?

+

[NAHBS]

after one trip to the midwest followed by three to the far west,
it'll be a pleasure to stay in the east for at least three contiguous
shows. atmo east is anywhere i can drive in less than eight hours,
even though i might fly.


hey - thanks for asking.


When did we go to the Midwest?

DW

[atmo]

When did we go to the Midwest?

DW
er houston is geographically more near the atlantic than the pacific atmo iirc.

[CNY rider]

I live in roughly the geographic center of NY state. If you were throwing a dart at a map of NY you would be aiming pretty close to my home.
I've also lived all over NY, east to west and I will say that culturally the midwest begins somewhere west of Rochester.
I am going to guess that's also about how far atmo can get in 8 hours in the car.
Pitt is OK but kind of far for those in the NY/Boston corridor.

Are you perhaps looking at Albany NY?

[NAHBS]

Please consider Baltimore :hello:

Already considered...whats the cyccling community like there?

iirc, didnt Balitmore have some sort of stigma attached like "Murder capitol of the US" or something like that? has it cleaned up? or was it never dirty?

honestly, i dont know much about it.

DW

[NAHBS]

er houston is geographically more near the atlantic than the pacific atmo iirc.

Oh, but its so far South, I thought it was "the south"

DW

[NAHBS]

Are you perhaps looking at Albany NY?

Thats the one....

DW

[rdparadise]

Are my recommendations. Both have excellent convention centers and both are cycling friendly.

I would love to see it in Philly only because it's all of 30 minutes from my front door.

Locally, of course we have, Havnoonian, Kellog and Bilenky as custom builders. That would save them a little coin to attend.

Philly has had Southwest Airlines now for 2-3 years so it's convenient and cost effective to come into town that way.

As long as it's east as ATMO said, I'd be a really happy camper.

Bob

[atmo]

Oh, but its so far South, I thought it was "the south"

DW

ct to houston = 1758 mi
sj to houston = 1888 mi

four years out there is plenty;
i say 3 years in the east min atmo.


well, you asked.
hey - thanks for asking.

[CNY rider]

Thats the one....

DW

Great, hope to see you there..... :banana:

[Bittersweet]

East of the Hudson River.

[rnhood]

Pittsburgh is considered East Coast. I don't know if there is a hard fast dividing line between East Coast and Mid-West areas but, for once-a-year type events (such as yours) anyplace within a state that touches or borders the sea would surely qualify as East Coast.

I would like to see this event in one of the higher growth areas, such as the one I live in (Raleigh/Durham/Chapel Hill) but, of course everyone probably prefers it to be in their town or area. At this point, just having it on the East Coast anywhere is reason for us Eastern'ers to be jubilant.

The places you mentioned (PA,VA, MD, etc) would be fine and, they are somewhat central to the East Coast. Polling your exibitors about this is a good idea, and one which you have probably already done (or will do).

[taz-t]

Howdy Folks,

I am a bit confused about some cities qualifying as "East Coast".

For example, I know Philly is in Eastern PA and is within a hundred miles or so of the ocean, so thats "east coast", however, Pittsburgh is still in the same state but is a few hundred miles away from the Atlantic, so is that more "midwest" or is it still east?

Where, geographically speaking, is the cutoff of "east coast" versus "midwest"?

I am sending out my "feelers" for 09 and beyond.

I like the possibilities in a few cities in PA, Maryland and NY, although I think a virtual central point in VA might be the way to go...anyone have any feedback on the VA idea (ONLY)?

DW

Easy enough... anything in the Eastern time zone is 'east'. But I don't understand the bias against the SOUTHeast. I mean - there's 5 million people in the metro Atlanta area and at least 3 or 4 of them own bikes. We even have an airport and some paved roads. I even hear that there's a state south of here that people travel to for vacations and conventions.

But if you don't like that, how about Asheville, NC or Chattanooga, TN? I think Kirk has some extra bedrooms we could stay in...

- taz

[DWF]

Denver. Then everybody can b1tch equally, except those blessed enough to live in the Rockies (que John Denver). I also have the most sheet to lug around, so that's got to be worth at least 10 votes right there. Besides THAT, I watched James Bond/Casino Royale on DVD last night and I could kick Daniel Craig's azz without working up a sweat. 20 votes. I now represent 1/4 of exhibitors.

[catulle]

Atmo, you ought to consider accesibility and bicycle culture around the city where the event will take place. Going to a small town in upstate NY I think is a bad idea, for instance.

For all of the above, I would consider three places:

1) Boston (Cambridge)
2) Washington, DC (Alexandria, Chevy Chase, et al.)
3) Miami, Fla. (Fort Lauderdale, Miami Beach, et al.)

Reaching any of the above cities by plane is very easy. Hotels are readily available in the general area. Transportation to the site of the event is also plentiful. Bicycles are very popular in any of the abovementioned cities. Of course, if you want the same die-hards going to the show year in and year out, and not capturing in any new blood, a remote location would be best :no:

[tiger]

Orlando, Jacksonville, Savannah, Charleston, Raleigh or Virginia Beach. Since it's in the winter we Northeasterners need to see sun and wear shorts. Then, the next year Baltimore, Philly, or Boston - for those that need a city atmosphere.

Any city in Upstate NY would fall all over themselves to attract you here, but this isn't exactly a destination travel location in the middle of winter...unless you enjoy sitting in the confines of Jet Blue aircraft on the tarmac waiting to be deiced, again...February is almost always the toughest winter month in the NE.

[J.Greene]

Orlando, Jacksonville

As much as I hate to admit it, FL is a bad idea. This is a place that has a big box mentality. Trek is King and custom means colored bar tape.

DC and Boston really appeal to me as far as bike culture goes.

JG

[jmewkill]

Denver. Then everybody can b1tch equally, except those blessed enough to live in the Rockies (que John Denver). I also have the most sheet to lug around, so that's got to be worth at least 10 votes right there. Besides THAT, I watched James Bond/Casino Royale on DVD last night and I could kick Daniel Craig's azz without working up a sweat. 20 votes. I now represent 1/4 of exhibitors.

Denver is my vote

Plus the added bonus of combining bikes with the fledgling North American Handmade Whisky show.

And it is far enough away that the hangover has gone by the time I get off the plane.

[atmo]

Denver is my vote

Plus the added bonus of combining bikes with the fledgling North American Handmade Whisky show.

And it is far enough away that the hangover has gone by the time I get off the plane.
i heart this cat.
so - after 3 years in the east, i vote for denver atmo.

[NAHBS]

Couple comments.

DWF, dont worry, we'll be there in the future. We need to go back east for a year or two.

Pittsburgh...does it have enough food/beer/panache to attract the folks from NYC or Boston? How is the local bike culture? I know Dirtrag is based there, and so are the Penguins...so anytme I can catch an NHL game and mix it with work, I am down.

Boston is too pricey for hotel rooms. Already checked for 08 and very few places in the NE want to give a break on the room rates, unless (UNLESS) we have major food/beverage events, i.e., a banquet every night we stay there.

Savannah has like 25 cyclists. Not even I am brave enough to deal wit those sand gnats in the spring...eff that! I still have scars from when I lived there 10 years ago...

Again folks, the criteria are as follows...cycling community, NON union hall, affordable local hotels, good food and microbrews, yada yada yada.

DW

[J.Greene]

Couple comments.


Pittsburgh...does it have enough beer

DW

Iron city pounders!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

JG

[rdparadise]

DW,

I don't like your VA. idea although I do know that they have a thriving cycling community. I'm not sure how much square feet of show space you need for a show like yours but that is a factor for sure whereever you decide to land.

If you want to attract the most people for gate receipts then I wouldn't go further south then Baltimore, or DC. My reason for this is that population density is obviously most concentrated from DC north to Boston. Sure there are millions in Hotlanta and it's definitely a diverse community. Some of Georgis is great cycling, but I wouldn't include Atlanta as great cycling.

Philly has a thriving cycling community as does Baltimore, DC., NYC, and Boston. Any of these cities would work for sure if you ask me.

Later,

Bob

[PacNW2Ford]

The Portland Convention Center is east of I-5, so 2008 is already "back east" :) That said, Baltimore and Virginia have appeal. It would be great to visit the Udvar-Hazy Air & Space museum and the National Aquarium in Baltimore. I've been to SJC twice and PDX is home :beer:

[72gmc]

I'm not East Coast, but I would find Pittsburgh appealing. Seems to be so much cycling culture over there in PA.

[rdparadise]

DW,

I know Philly gets a bad rap because we are a union town and of course the city of brotherly love. I would encourage you to NOT write off Philly because of their past reputation. I have heard really great things recently about the NEW cooperative culture that has emerged in the last couple of years.

Our unions almost killed the convention center a few years back, I KNOW! That said, things have changed and WE deserve another look. Check around DW, I think you will be pleasantly surprised.

Bob

Ps. The state is investing millions in an expansion of the convention center to make it more competitive. This would not be happening without a changed environment regarding the union culture.

[atmo]

dee-dub
in 04 when we all began chatting about the show,
a mission statement, and what would be ideal, some
of the discussion touched on what my wife, aka the
lovely deb, had encountered in her life as a craftsperson
attending similar shows. here is one venue where things
were perfect, and went off without one hitch:
http://www.vfconventioncenter.com/
the promoter's site is here:
http://www.goodrichpromotions.com/designer_craftsmen/index.html

the model already exists.
or is should say, a model already exists atmo...



ps - from the site:
Non-union facility with eleven drive-in bays, eight fully enclosed loading docks and 14’, 15’ and 31’ ceiling heights.

[ergott]

One word. Javits.

http://www.javitscenter.com/

I think there are enough hotels and airports in the local area to suffice.

[taz-t]

DW,

I don't like your VA. idea although I do know that they have a thriving cycling community. I'm not sure how much square feet of show space you need for a show like yours but that is a factor for sure whereever you decide to land.

If you want to attract the most people for gate receipts then I wouldn't go further south then Baltimore, or DC. My reason for this is that population density is obviously most concentrated from DC north to Boston. Sure there are millions in Hotlanta and it's definitely a diverse community. Some of Georgis is great cycling, but I wouldn't include Atlanta as great cycling.

Philly has a thriving cycling community as does Baltimore, DC., NYC, and Boston. Any of these cities would work for sure if you ask me.

Later,

Bob


Okay - Atlanta does not have great cycling, but we don't have an ocean and we have a boat show. We don't have ice, but we have a hockey team. We don't have messengers and a bike "culture" but we have a UCI race, have had World Cup mtb races and we have 100+ show up for group rides in the middle of December.

What we *do* have is lots of people with disposable income and a population large enough to support a show - plus no local builders (that I know of) so a market that *needs* to be educated.

Do you think anyone in Portland that's interested in a custom bike can't find someone to build it for them?

Plus - it will be 84 degrees today.


- taz

[NAHBS]

One word. Javits.

http://www.javitscenter.com/

I think there are enough hotels and airports in the local area to suffice.

I was interested until I saw Freeman listed on their website.
Dont need to get into details, but Freeman is "off my list" of preferred decorators after this year in San Jose. They pulled a bunch of un-neccesary crap because they didnt get the contract. I am steering clear of them because of that issue.

DW

[stevep]

tons of flights into philly.
easy train right from the airport to downtown.
lots of restaurants
$100 round trip from a lot of major east coast cities.
always had a good time there at the bike show.

my vote or boston or providence or atmos house.

[merckx]

Boston

[catulle]

http://www.collect.com/krause/shows.asp?catalog_name=Krause&category_name=Blade+Show&showid=BSICF&Page=1&cookie%5Ftest=1

[Birddog]

East = Eastern Time Zone. East Coast= any state that borders the Atlantic Ocean, unless you are from W of the Rockies, then E means anything E of the Mississippi. I'm not sure why ATMO wants it so close. He doesn't travel with those milk crate displays does he? I thought he just borrowed them in the host city.

Birddog

[DWF]

I'm not sure why ATMO wants it so close. He doesn't travel with those milk crate displays does he? I thought he just borrowed them in the host city.

Birddog
Yeah, they're kind of Shimano. He'll have to go all Campagnolo for Portland just to maintain his street cred.

[ergott]

I was interested until I saw Freeman listed on their website.
Dont need to get into details, but Freeman is "off my list" of preferred decorators after this year in San Jose. They pulled a bunch of un-neccesary crap because they didnt get the contract. I am steering clear of them because of that issue.

DW

Well they ain't the only gig in town. The Sheraton is pretty big and does conventions as well. I'm sure there are more.

You have a killer night-life for anyone's taste's, and right over the GWB is some great riding (not to mention Central Park. Best thing is the city has everything within biking distance. You can fly in with a bike and never need a car to see all the cool stuff around the show. Should attract a healthy crowd of consumers.

[jmewkill]

I'm not sure why ATMO wants it so close. He doesn't travel with those milk crate displays does he? I thought he just borrowed them in the host city.

Birddog

Its the cost of transporting his posse that pushes that motivation.

[edouard]

I was interested until I saw Freeman listed on their website.
Dont need to get into details, but Freeman is "off my list" of preferred decorators after this year in San Jose. They pulled a bunch of un-neccesary crap because they didnt get the contract. I am steering clear of them because of that issue.

DW

and it's a friggin union house.

[CNY rider]

Well they ain't the only gig in town. The Sheraton is pretty big and does conventions as well. I'm sure there are more.

You have a killer night-life for anyone's taste's, and right over the GWB is some great riding (not to mention Central Park. Best thing is the city has everything within biking distance. You can fly in with a bike and never need a car to see all the cool stuff around the show. Should attract a healthy crowd of consumers.

NY is a great town, no doubt.

I'm not sure how folks will feel spending $200 and up a night for a decent hotel room if they want to stay in Manhattan. Will that hurt attendance by exhibitors and consumers?

[Len J]

anything within an 8 hour drive & I'm there.

DC, Balt, Philly, Harrisburg, Lancaster, NY (although very union & very expensive, boston area, etc. up the east coast would be great.

Pittsburgh is a good place, very hilly.

I'd say anywhere in or around Philly would be a great central location. This would include:

Lancaster
Valley Forge
West Chester
Wilmington
Fort Washington
Phoenixville
etc
etc.

Len

[rwsaunders]

A wise old sage from Indiana once told me that Midwesterners trust you until you screw them, as Eastcoasters think you're screwing them until they trust you. In categorizing Philadelphia, the Midwest ends in Pittsburgh.

[NAHBS]

NY is a great town, no doubt.

I'm not sure how folks will feel spending $200 and up a night for a decent hotel room if they want to stay in Manhattan. Will that hurt attendance by exhibitors and consumers?


See, thats what I am trying to avoid. Any other type of tradeshow would pay the big bucks, but framebuilders are always crying poormouth when it comes to hotels. I have to keep it "on the cheap" or risk losing some budget minded exhibitors and attendee's.

DW

[atmo]

See, thats what I am trying to avoid. Any other type of tradeshow would pay the big bucks, but framebuilders are always crying poormouth when it comes to hotels. I have to keep it "on the cheap" or risk losing some budget minded exhibitors and attendee's.

DW

read: the builders will come, no matter. the consumers will come,
no matter. after four years, nahbs is a brand, and in and of itself,
a draw. this is not about money or location. it is the only place in
the world that folks like us can kibbitz. it is the only place in the
world that message boarders can kibbitz with the kibbitzers. so stop
worrying about what a room costs; we are not talking about the carlisle
or the pierre, or even about manhattan atmo. are you feeling me?

the only real consideration is whether (or not) you can reasonably
ask a large contingent of your booth takers to continue getting on
planes and supporting a fedex habit.

[Len J]

See, thats what I am trying to avoid. Any other type of tradeshow would pay the big bucks, but framebuilders are always crying poormouth when it comes to hotels. I have to keep it "on the cheap" or risk losing some budget minded exhibitors and attendee's.

DW


Atlantic City. (BTW, not my favorite place), but...I'm sure you'd get good facilities, subsidized rooms, and you'd attract people from the strong cycling communities of Philly, DC, Baltimore, & NY. Access is pretty good either thru AC airport or 1.5 hour easy drive from Philly.

Don't know the union situation.

Len

[stevep]

lousy airline service to atlantic city...in fact...basicly none. you gotta fly into philly and take a 1 1/2 hr ride...
terrible. desparate, the dregs.

i have stayed at the franklin plaza in downtown philly for the us pro championships. room rate was $105. it was the host hotel special rate.
lotsa bars within a 5 minute walk is anyone is inclined. 5 minute walk to the convention ctr if you would use that for the show.

[ergott]

Come to think of it, velodrome vicinity should be a strong consideration. PA would get my nod in that case.

[atmo]

Come to think of it, velodrome vicinity should be a strong consideration. PA would get my nod in that case.
thusfar, the vicinity has not been local-rider-body-count specific.
this is a show that folks travel to. it's not about the weather, or
the area's riding features, or the like. it's all about what happens
at the venue, and especially at the anvil booth atmo.

[NAHBS]

So far, I think the Valley Forge is at the head of the pack...
I will have my people call their people and talk during lunch about availability and rates.

That being said, I know the folks in Pittsburgh had decent room rates and such...but is it too far from NYC, Boston, Baltimore, etc?

DW

[Jeff Weir]

Yes, it is.

[jmewkill]

thusfar, the vicinity has not been local-rider-body-count specific.
this is a show that folks travel to. it's not about the weather, or
the area's riding features, or the like. it's all about what happens
at the venue, and especially at the anvil booth atmo.

The place where dreams are lived and fantasy's fulfilled.

I had a conversation with a high level industry non forum member this week who said "best bike show in forever" (paraphrased). Sign up early, Sign up often.

These are Good bike people.

Y'all make me cry a little.

[NAHBS]

The place where dreams are lived and fantasy's fulfilled.

I had a conversation with a high level industry non forum member this week who said "best bike show in forever" (paraphrased). Sign up early, Sign up often.

These are Good bike people.

Y'all make me cry a little.

He's not an Armani wearing short dude (well, most everyone is short next to me) that lives in SoCal, is he? If so, I know who you mean and he did tell me some such phrase as well...or close to it.

DW

[goonster]

So far, I think the Valley Forge is at the head of the pack...


Nobody has mentioned it yet, and I don't know the project schedule, but by '09 Valley Forge may have a brand new velodrome. There is also a paved trail that connects VF to Manayunk and Center City Philadelphia.

As far as microbrews are concerned . . .

If you come to VF I'll shuttle the kegs from Victory and Yards personally.

[roman meal]

Nobody has mentioned it yet, and I don't know the project schedule, but by '09 Valley Forge may have a brand new velodrome. There is also a paved trail that connects VF to Manayunk and Center City Philadelphia.

As far as microbrews are concerned . . .

If you come to VF I'll shuttle the kegs from Victory and Yards personally.

OMG, have it there for Yards beer alone.... Seriously..

[edouard]

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e61/easterncaster/bscrapple.jpg

[davids]

I grew up in Cleveland - Pittsburgh is in the Midwest.

Albany sounds intriguing (right down the road from Saratoga Springs) but the Philly area could be a nice choice, too.

Of course, my first choice is Boston. Then Providence. Then atmo's yard. (stevep, that'll be $25 per vote. I put it on your tab.)

[julia]

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s306/juliahensley/philly1x600.jpg

[edouard]

http://dcjobsource.com/richest.html

[edouard]

.

[bcm119]

Philly. SE Penn. has the best beer in the east. Pittsburgh is in the midwest culturally. Anything west of Hazelton PA is midwest. ;)

[dave thompson]

Philly. SE Penn. has the best beer in the east. Pittsburgh is in the midwest culturally. Anything west of Hazelton PA is midwest. ;)
Wrong! Anything east of Bozeman Montana is East Coast.

[slowgoing]

Annapolis. Nice scenery and food and not too far away from DC or Baltimore.

[obtuse]

don walker-

i've been to pittsburgh. i half expected a post-apocolyptic version of "escape from new york" crossed with circa 1982 beirut but with a stronger union presence and a distinct odor of yuengling and piss. you know, the type of depressed dying town where the river catches on fire and the women pull iron grates over the doors on slovak pride day for fear that the windows will be bashed in by marauding hordes using broken parking meters as cudgels....and i have to tell all of you; the foot ball team may have a u.s. steel emblem for its logo; and the weather in february may suck; but i have never seen a prettier city with nicer people and a more beautiful surrounding countryside. the river is awesome, the new sports stadiums are great, the surrounding hills engulf and surround the town in a vaguely black forest; pre-patton bavarian kind of way and the bars are great.

by the way; yuengling also happens to be the best shi'ite domestic beer around. tastes like jupiler. don't know if anyone rides bikes but i'd go there again.

obtuse

[goonster]

by the way; yuengling also happens to be the best shi'ite domestic beer around. tastes like jupiler.

Pottsville is much, much closer to VF than to Pittsburgh. Dunno how you got the impression that Ying is an Iron City thing . . . :confused:

http://www.thebottlecapman.com/images/Used%20Beer%20Caps/Yuengling_Pottsville.jpg

http://www.outofbalance.org/days/2006/images/death-yuengling.jpg

[obtuse]

Pottsville is much, much closer to VF than to Pittsburgh. Dunno how you got the impression that Ying is an Iron City thing . . . :confused:

http://www.thebottlecapman.com/images/Used%20Beer%20Caps/Yuengling_Pottsville.jpg

http://www.outofbalance.org/days/2006/images/death-yuengling.jpg


i know it's not but it is a pennsylvania thing and i ain't hanging out on the main line yo- plus it's what i drank when i was there....my wife drank so many we got kicked out of a hotel bar and told to go across the street to a "real bar".

obtuse

[Your_Friend!]

i know it's not but it is a pennsylvania thing and i ain't hanging out on the main line yo- plus it's what i drank when i was there....my wife drank so many we got kicked out of a hotel bar and told to go across the street to a "real bar".

obtuse

Obtuse!

That is poetry!

[goonster]

i know it's not but it is a pennsylvania thing and i ain't hanging out on the main line yo- plus it's what i drank when i was there....my wife drank so many we got kicked out of a hotel bar and told to go across the street to a "real bar".


True dat, and I'm relieved to hear you comported yourselves honorably in the Commonwealth. :beer:

VF would be a great location (significantly closer for most East Coasters), but heck, I'll drive to Pittsburgh. I'll bring a half keg of Storm King, and y'all are invited to help me with that, at your own risk.

No more Primanti Bros. sammiches for me though. (shudder) :no:

http://www.pittsburghhomesdaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/08/primantisandwich.jpg

[NAHBS]

No more Primanti Bros. sammiches for me though. (shudder) :no:

http://www.pittsburghhomesdaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/08/primantisandwich.jpg

I have no clue *** that sandwich is, and frankly, if I saw someone eating it, i'd probably gag.

On a separate note...if we did 1 year VF and one Pittsburgh, would folks still come the following year in P'bugh? I know we had a slight growth this year (not as much as we had anticipated) and someone mentioned most of the locals felt that "they had already seen it last year"....I know its flawed logic from my POV, but still....would you all come a 2nd year?

DW

[NAHBS]

don walker-

i've been to pittsburgh. i half expected a post-apocolyptic version of "escape from new york" crossed with circa 1982 beirut but with a stronger union presence and a distinct odor of yuengling and piss. you know, the type of depressed dying town where the river catches on fire and the women pull iron grates over the doors on slovak pride day for fear that the windows will be bashed in by marauding hordes using broken parking meters as cudgels....and i have to tell all of you; the foot ball team may have a u.s. steel emblem for its logo; and the weather in february may suck; but i have never seen a prettier city with nicer people and a more beautiful surrounding countryside. the river is awesome, the new sports stadiums are great, the surrounding hills engulf and surround the town in a vaguely black forest; pre-patton bavarian kind of way and the bars are great.

by the way; yuengling also happens to be the best shi'ite domestic beer around. tastes like jupiler. don't know if anyone rides bikes but i'd go there again.

obtuse

Obtuse,

Dirtrag is behind a movement to get us to come there, and up until a month or so ago, Micheal Browne and I had many conversations about P'burgh and he somehow managed to sell me on the idea. I just have certain other concerns, like Unions.

DW

[atmo]

On a separate note...if we did 1 year VF and one Pittsburgh, would folks still come the following year in P'bugh? I know we had a slight growth this year (not as much as we had anticipated) and someone mentioned most of the locals felt that "they had already seen it last year"....I know its flawed logic from my POV, but still....would you all come a 2nd year?

DW

thusfar, the vicinity has not been local-rider-body-count specific.
this is a show that folks travel to. it's not about the weather, or
the area's riding features, or the like. it's all about what happens
at the venue, and especially at the anvil booth atmo.




read: the builders will come, no matter. the consumers will come,
no matter. after four years, nahbs is a brand, and in and of itself,
a draw. this is not about money or location. it is the only place in
the world that folks like us can kibbitz. it is the only place in the
world that message boarders can kibbitz with the kibbitzers. so stop
worrying about what a room costs; we are not talking about the carlisle
or the pierre, or even about manhattan atmo. are you feeling me?

the only real consideration is whether (or not) you can reasonably
ask a large contingent of your booth takers to continue getting on
planes and supporting a fedex habit.

[stevep]

easy plane access critical.
imo.
more people would come if the flight was 2hrs or less and not a ton of $$$.
hotel room cost less imprtant imo.
100-150? whats the difference really.
draw new population in a major metro area like ny, philly, boston,
pittsburgh maybe?

there are like 300 bike shops ( probably more ) within an hour drive of the empire state bld... a large population of enthusiasts there, believe me. philly a lot also. these people would drive or take transit. your base numbers would expand.

"new blood would help"
quote taken out of context by johan bruyneel.

[NAHBS]

thusfar, the vicinity has not been local-rider-body-count specific.
this is a show that folks travel to. it's not about the weather, or
the area's riding features, or the like. it's all about what happens
at the venue, and especially at the anvil booth atmo.




read: the builders will come, no matter. the consumers will come,
no matter. after four years, nahbs is a brand, and in and of itself,
a draw. this is not about money or location. it is the only place in
the world that folks like us can kibbitz. it is the only place in the
world that message boarders can kibbitz with the kibbitzers. so stop
worrying about what a room costs; we are not talking about the carlisle
or the pierre, or even about manhattan atmo. are you feeling me?

the only real consideration is whether (or not) you can reasonably
ask a large contingent of your booth takers to continue getting on
planes and supporting a fedex habit.


Deja Vu?

DW

[atmo]

Deja Vu?

DW
it's nothing you and i haven't spoken about since 05 atmo.

[NAHBS]

easy plane access critical.
imo.
more people would come if the flight was 2hrs or less and not a ton of $$$.
hotel room cost less imprtant imo.
100-150? whats the difference really.
draw new population in a major metro area like ny, philly, boston,
pittsburgh maybe?

there are like 300 bike shops ( probably more ) within an hour drive of the empire state bld... a large population of enthusiasts there, believe me. philly a lot also. these people would drive or take transit. your base numbers would expand.

"new blood would help"
quote taken out of context by johan bruyneel.

Theres a buttload of builders back east who havent gotten involved yet...I think they will be on this like a dog on a bone when we move east...but they will be missing out on Portland, which is going to be the best exposure yet!

DW

[atmo]

Theres a buttload of builders back east who havent gotten involved yet...I think they will be on this like a dog on a bone when we move east...but they will be missing out on Portland, which is going to be the best exposure yet!

DW
it'll be even more enticing for the easterners that you are
citing (above) when you keep it in the east for at least three
successive years.

ps why are there not parallel threads on the listserve, frameforum,
and on the nahbs website? it's a shame to leave the exhibitors out
of the discussion atmo. banana.

[YO!!!]

DW,

The NAHBS is a show FOR the framebuilders.

Meet their NEEDS and the public
will follow 'em regardless of the whatevers.

[DWF]

Theres a buttload of builders back east who havent gotten involved yet...I think they will be on this like a dog on a bone when we move east...but they will be missing out on Portland, which is going to be the best exposure yet!

DW
I don't understand this and frankly, it doesn't make good business sense to me, atmo.

NAHBS has become the focal point for the custom/bespoke/boutique framebuilder. Period. If you're not there, you are at risk of being off the back for a whole new category of customers: the internet and forum member generation. NAHBS happens once of year, if the builder misses the wave, they have to wait a year to try and catch another.

For example, atmo, handmade companies like Serotta and Moots lost customers. They weren't on the scene, they sat on the bench and in my mind took themselves off the short list for a lot of folks. Customers who got to meet and greet with their competitors, get on a first name basis, spark the tender of a potential relationship. They lost them to IF and Seven and Eriksen and Roark and Strong and NTP, etc. who WERE there with flash Ti bikes for folks and camera's and the internet to drool over. Their brand became the ghost image in a NAHBS double exposure.

DW - NAHBS is not a bike shop. It's organic. It's bike culture. Community. Passion. It's about the people on both sides of the booth and that's what makes it so cool. Don't let the # of heads through the door be your only guide. It's like being a custom builder and trying to compete with mass manufacturers. They're not your competition. NAHBS and handmade builders do not compete for the greater cycling community. Those that "get" what we do will be there, and those that don't aren't our customers. Yet. The "apres NAHBS" chatter and internet/bike rag exposure will inform those folks and either inspire them to attend future events or not.

That said, I don't want to see NAHBS become a purely commercial venue. I don't want to see it get diluted with factory made bikes and the glimmer that goes with it. Don't forget how this started: framebuilders, and how Houston became San Jose: framebuilders. You get major props from me because you sacked up and herded a few cats to Houston where those same builders took up a collection for you to help make ends meet and then stuck with it to San Jose where it took on a life of its own. Framebuilders and those who love them. You need to make NAHBS self-sustaining and profitable for you, and it should be, but mark my words: you start focussing solely on the $$$ and you'll phock this up. Focus on the builders and the people will come.

[NAHBS]

I don't understand this and frankly, it doesn't make good business sense to me, atmo.

NAHBS has become the focal point for the custom/bespoke/boutique framebuilder. Period. If you're not there, you are at risk of being off the back for a whole new category of customers: the internet and forum member generation. NAHBS happens once of year, if the builder misses the wave, they have to wait a year to try and catch another.

For example, atmo, handmade companies like Serotta and Moots lost customers. They weren't on the scene, they sat on the bench and in my mind took themselves off the short list for a lot of folks. Customers who got to meet and greet with their competitors, get on a first name basis, spark the tender of a potential relationship. They lost them to IF and Seven and Eriksen and Roark and Strong and NTP, etc. who WERE there with flash Ti bikes for folks and camera's and the internet to drool over. Their brand became the ghost image in a NAHBS double exposure.

DW - NAHBS is not a bike shop. It's organic. It's bike culture. Community. Passion. It's about the people on both sides of the booth and that's what makes it so cool. Don't let the # of heads through the door be your only guide. It's like being a custom builder and trying to compete with mass manufacturers. They're not your competition. NAHBS and handmade builders do not compete for the greater cycling community. Those that "get" what we do will be there, and those that don't aren't our customers. Yet. The "apres NAHBS" chatter and internet/bike rag exposure will inform those folks and either inspire them to attend future events or not.

That said, I don't want to see NAHBS become a purely commercial venue. I don't want to see it get diluted with factory made bikes and the glimmer that goes with it. Don't forget how this started: framebuilders, and how Houston became San Jose: framebuilders. You get major props from me because you sacked up and herded a few cats to Houston where those same builders took up a collection for you to help make ends meet and then stuck with it to San Jose where it took on a life of its own. Framebuilders and those who love them. You need to make NAHBS self-sustaining and profitable for you, and it should be, but mark my words: you start focussing solely on the $$$ and you'll phock this up. Focus on the builders and the people will come.

DWF,
NAHBS has always been about the framebuilder and those who support us in some way, shape or form. I totally know that Ernesto C. doesnt belong. No matter how big a draw at the gate it would be, he's just become too mainstream.
That being said, money is still an issue, but its not what drives me. My internal mechanism is my passion for educating the consumer to the handmade option. (is it ironic I still havent sold a bike at the very show I promote?)

If it werent for those supporting the show (some from the very beginning), the show would have died already. I am thankful to you and every other exhibitor who has stepped up and backed the show from its concept. I know who has been loyal and will always remember them and their support. I truly want folks to know, I dont make this show what it is, in my mind its the exhibitors. I may have an influence on it, but its the exhibitors that really contribute to the overall good of the show.

btw, BG sent me a bottle of Stranahans. Damm good stuff! If I didnt have my addiction to Single Malts, I could see drinking that stuff on a regular basis.

DW

[michael white]

baltimore is a treat for conventions. inner harbour, can't hardly beat it.

DC also, a very easy place to get around, considering, with major attractions for everyone.

[catulle]

I'm lost. Shouldn't the show be for potential or repeat buyers? I realize that without builders there would be no builders show, but isn't the objective of the meeting to attract people to buy frames from the builders? Or is this just a builders get-together?

If the show is for the builders then it might make sense to consider cheap hotels, bars, a remote location, or who knows what (although I'm sure this is not the case for all makers.) If it is for those interested in buying fine hand-built frames, then accesibility and a copious cycling community would make sense.

Whatever.

[norman neville]

i'm pretty sure hartford has boatloads of new, underutilized convention-type facilities recently constructed in a typical governor-is-a-criminal distraction boondoggle, low-income taxpayer ripoff fashion.

and some hotels. (the grantmoor comes to mind. that's probably where various local framebuilders are right now.)

there may even be an airport nearby. and a highway. and stuff.

much less expensive than new york, boston, philidelphia and with much less to see and do.

plus it's close to new haven.

otoh, what's up with this anti-union bias? it's creepy, atmo.

[atmo]

I'm lost. Shouldn't the show be for potential or repeat buyers? I realize that without builders there would be no builders show, but isn't the objective of the meeting to attract people to buy frames from the builders? Or is this just a builders get-together?

If the show is for the builders then it might make sense to consider cheap hotels, bars, a remote location, or who knows what (although I'm sure this is the case for all makers.) If it is for those interested in buying fine hand-built frames, then accesibility and a copious cycling community would make sense.

Whatever.
the show is for the builders; it was conceived on the listserve as
well as on frameforum dot net as a vehicle with which the buiders
would converge and spend a weekend sharing resources, telling
stories, and generally do whatever happens so that everybody left
smarter and more enthusiastic on monday morning. it was conceived
as a show at which there was (to be) no industrial-made stuff, and
no vendors who made frames before there were clients for said frames,
and certainly no one would be allowed to show if their stuff bordered
on being made in a subcontacting arena. oh - and of course - it was
for builders, not clothing makers, or brake makers, derailleur makers,
yada blah blah. oh, to have a time capsule in houston atmo. atmo,
that show, though small, was the ideal. but what happened? well,
it made no sense to not let folks in, so the show was also open to
the public, and the rest is history.

the issue here is how does don walker, saint-in-residence that he is,
make money now that the original mission statement has jumped
the shark? heck, i certainly don't know. but the odds have grown,
the light shining on all this is brighter than ever, ya' have corporate
entities that wanna glom off of what seems like a success story and
even offer to sponsor it if we jump through a few of their unreasonable
hoops. hey - shut me up already.

the show is now its own brand. atmo, as i wrote already, it can and
will be a success no matter where it's held. i would even place a wager
on that fact.

but at the core of all this is that the show is of the builders, not of the
consumers. any builder that misses it will be missing a possible chance
to book most of the year's order from the press and goodwill that comes
from these 3 winter days. ironic, it is to me, that folks are somehow
worried about room rates and locations. atmo, what walker has done
is mapped out a formula in which mebbe 80% of the booth takers are
either fledgling newbies (5-10 years or less) or part timers, and his
retreats have allowed these cats the publicity machinery to become
cults of personality if you will. as noted on another thread, the message
boarders, in turn, take all the flicker sites and the youtubes, combine
these with their own accounts, and viola, guys are backed up 1-3 years
without ever having bought an ad anywhere or even having what some
would consider a business plan. no real harm, i s'pose.

well, what now? this thing (i can hear kate calling it this sicilian thing...)
is huge, but it really is no bigger nor more important than a trekie
convention. i'm a believer. i have been since we started talking about
a show on neil's site in 2004. my primary interests are that it not get
(too) commercial and hence lose its roots, and i also want to see don
be able to make a salary from it. but the minute it becomes interbike-
esque, or if some cat offers to buy the property and don leaves the
helm, that interest will waiver atmo.

[Johny]

but the minute it becomes interbike-
esque, or if some cat offers to buy the property and don leaves the
helm, that interest will waiver atmo.

The 3mm moment has come.

[Serotta PETE]

Pittsburg is cheap for a reason at that time of the year, as is ATLANTIC CITY,,,,,RALEIGH would be a better location than PITTSBURG or ATLANTIC City.

Phile or the north east corridor from Washington to MeadonwLands NJ would be central. (and probably reasonable at that time of the year.

just my two cents....Dallas Fort Worth is a hike for all just as Houston is. (I have to travel either way but to attract the most folks with least travel the NY area is probably best.

:confused: :confused:


So far, I think the Valley Forge is at the head of the pack...
I will have my people call their people and talk during lunch about availability and rates.

That being said, I know the folks in Pittsburgh had decent room rates and such...but is it too far from NYC, Boston, Baltimore, etc?

DW

[taz-t]

the show is for the builders; it was conceived on the listserve as
well as on frameforum dot net as a vehicle with which the buiders
would converge and spend a weekend sharing resources, telling
stories, and generally do whatever happens so that everybody left
smarter and more enthusiastic on monday morning. it was conceived
as a show at which there was (to be) no industrial-made stuff, and
no vendors who made frames before there were clients for said frames,
and certainly no one would be allowed to show if their stuff bordered
on being made in a subcontacting arena. oh - and of course - it was
for builders, not clothing makers, or brake makers, derailleur makers,
yada blah blah. oh, to have a time capsule in houston atmo. atmo,
that show, though small, was the ideal. but what happened? well,
it made no sense to not let folks in, so the show was also open to
the public, and the rest is history.

the issue here is how does don walker, saint-in-residence that he is,
make money now that the original mission statement has jumped
the shark? heck, i certainly don't know. but the odds have grown,
the light shining on all this is brighter than ever, ya' have corporate
entities that wanna glom off of what seems like a success story and
even offer to sponsor it if we jump through a few of their unreasonable
hoops. hey - shut me up already.

the show is now its own brand. atmo, as i wrote already, it can and
will be a success no matter where it's held. i would even place a wager
on that fact.

but at the core of all this is that the show is of the builders, not of the
consumers. any builder that misses it will be missing a possible chance
to book most of the year's order from the press and goodwill that comes
from these 3 winter days. ironic, it is to me, that folks are somehow
worried about room rates and locations. atmo, what walker has done
is mapped out a formula in which mebbe 80% of the booth takers are
either fledgling newbies (5-10 years or less) or part timers, and his
retreats have allowed these cats the publicity machinery to become
cults of personality if you will. as noted on another thread, the message
boarders, in turn, take all the flicker sites and the youtubes, combine
these with their own accounts, and viola, guys are backed up 1-3 years
without ever having bought an ad anywhere or even having what some
would consider a business plan. no real harm, i s'pose.

well, what now? this thing (i can hear kate calling it this sicilian thing...)
is huge, but it really is no bigger nor more important than a trekie
convention. i'm a believer. i have been since we started talking about
a show on neil's site in 2004. my primary interests are that it not get
(too) commercial and hence lose its roots, and i also want to see don
be able to make a salary from it. but the minute it becomes interbike-
esque, or if some cat offers to buy the property and don leaves the
helm, that interest will waiver atmo.

So is it a trade show or a convention? If it's a framebuilder's convention, there's no need to bring your wares, just pack a bag and head to your favorite golf course or ski resort with a conference room and a bar. If this is the case, the vendors *should* be the clothing distributors and the tubing manufacturers, etc. They should be invited to attend with the expectation/stipulation they pick up part of the tab like any other professional convention.

But if it's a trade show, the audience is your potential client base and a balance between the vendors and the consumers (as far as location, etc) needs to be considered.

Regardless of the original intent and/or discusssions from '04 the 'event' set its path when v1.0 allowed or suggested that attendees bring their bikes and display to the public.

I'm not saying that the original idea doesn't have merit, just that it never happened. Maybe the two could be combined or the whole enterprise rethought, but they're not the same thing. You might consider taking the word 'Show' out of the name if that's not the intent.

[atmo]

I'm not saying that the original idea doesn't have merit, just that it never happened.
it did happen atmo.

[catulle]

I'm no longer lost. Now I get it. As always, thanks for the enlightenment. I guess choosing a location is much easier now. Just make it close to a Hooter's. Good thing that non-builders can attend, though.

(Er, I made an important edit to my previous post)

[taz-t]

it did happen atmo.

So what happened between Houston and San Jose, other than the event growing larger? (asking, not arguing) To me, they appear the same. But I wasn't at either so maybe I'm missing some nuance?

- taz

[DWF]

I'm no longer lost. Now I get it. As always, thanks for the enlightenment. I guess choosing a location is much easier now. Just make it close to a Hooter's. Good thing that non-builders can attend, though.

(Er, I made an important edit to my previous post)
I'm having trouble discerning your tone or intent. Here's the deal: OF COURSE the public is welcome and to be considered. BUT, the show can't become a circus or lose sight of what its intent is/was: to highlight the craftsmanship and wares of the handmade builder which is often lost in the bright lights and glam marketing of the larger bicycle industry.

You know what the problem really is, is that this is not the proper "forum" for a lot of this discussion to take place. For every line I've written, there is an unwritten line that is understood by those directly involved, but probably lost on the greater audience here. DW did not climb Mt. Sinai, step away from a burning bush, and pronounce there would be a NAHBS. DW took the bull by the horns, but it came about from a long, trying, set of discussions and meetings by a small group to define what the show was all about and what its "mission" was. I, for one, think it is important that the show, and its founding principles, not be prostituted soley for the sake of the "gate." Do you "feel" me?

[catulle]

I'm having trouble discerning your tone or intent. Here's the deal: OF COURSE the public is welcome and to be considered. BUT, the show can't become a circus or lose sight of what its intent is/was: to highlight the craftsmanship and wares of the handmade builder which is often lost in the bright lights and glam marketing of the larger bicycle industry.

You know what the problem really is, is that this is not the proper "forum" for a lot of this discussion to take place. For every line I've written, there is an unwritten line that is understood by those directly involved, but probably lost on the greater audience here. DW did not climb Mt. Sinai, step away from a burning bush, and pronounce there would be a NAHBS. DW took the bull by the horns, but it came about from a long, trying, set of discussions and meetings by a small group to define what the show was all about and what its "mission" was. I, for one, think it is important that the show, and its founding principles, not be prostituted soley for the sake of the "gate." Do you "feel" me?

Your hostility is totally groundless. You must've forgotten your medication or something. No, I don't "feel" you and don't care to ever do so. Actually, it's best you take your frustations somewhere else. I have no idea who you are and haven't read any of your posts.

If you didn't understand my point previously, maybe you will this second time. The original question as I understood it was: Where do you suggest that the next show be held? Thinking, as I wrote earlier, that the idea was to attract potential buyers I suggested a few places. Richie, very considerately, explained the roots of the show and shed light on its purposes. I, in return, thanked him for the clarification.

I look forward to meeting you at the next show. I know communication is much better when up close and personal.

By the way, I own one frame and have three other frames ordered from show exhibitors; some of which I know personally and consider friends. In any case, I'm on the "side" of the builders. I buy their frames.

[DWF]

Your hostility is totally groundless. You must've forgotten your medication or something. No, I don't "feel" you and don't care to ever do so. Actually, it's best you take your frustations somewhere else. I have no idea who you are and haven't read any of your posts.

If you didn't understand my point previously, maybe you will this second time. The original question as I understood it was: Where do you suggest that the next show be held? Thinking, as I wrote earlier, that the idea was to attract potential buyers I suggested a few places. Richie, very considerately, explained the roots of the show and shed light on its purposes. I, in return, thanked him for the clarification.

I look forward to meeting you at the next show. I know communication is much better when up close and personal.

By the way, I own one frame and have three other frames ordered from show exhibitors; some of which I know personally and consider friends. In any case, I'm on the "side" of the builders. I buy their frames.
Um, there was no hostility in my post. :confused:

[stevep]

then there was the time at the interbike show that at the same time there was a strippers convention. many of those attendees were staying at our hotel. they were easily recognisable.
a trip to the pool was inspirational...like a religious experience.
there were so many flotation devices implanted that the women could walk on the water in the pool.

make the show coincide with a stripper convention.
worth the effort.
then you can just forget the handmade bikes..nobody will care.

[atmo]

So what happened between Houston and San Jose, other than the event growing larger? (asking, not arguing) To me, they appear the same. But I wasn't at either so maybe I'm missing some nuance?

- taz
1) the need to make $$$
2) standards are lowered (or changed) for the sake of 1 above.
3) folks that have invested in this emotionally and intellectually
from day 1 start rethinking their priorities.

oh - and i am not refering to (only) myself atmo.
btw, as i wrote above, we (the constituants) have a listserve,
a website, and a forum on that website, and the show itself
has a website. there is also 1) a full cc email address field
that often receives emails, and 2) an inner circle of about
12 builders that routinely discusses and er, shapes, some of
the show's more in-your-face features. so, my puzzlement is
about why this message board is (now) being used to table
a discussion about something that is a year away from a show
that will occur in the winter of 2008. while it puzzles me on
several layers, one that is prominant is that through several
pms exchanged with a mod here, i was informed that the
board (and/or its host) did not see the value of this show
and would not attend. mp atmo.

[saab2000]

Madison, Wisconsin.

Honest.

Beer, brats, babes and bikes.

What's not to like.

Besides, there's even good riding there and maybe some of you alcoholics with a bikebuilding problem could actually ride those things in between binges.

[stevep]

not to veer off topic.
saab,
where are you landing?
( get it )
swiss or here??

[saab2000]

not to veer off topic.
saab,
where are you landing?
( get it )
swiss or here??

Not sure yet. Go to Switzerland on the 10th for a meeting. It will become more clear then.

Still unsure....... The mountains are beckoning though....

[big shanty]

I was up the street at a local hole-in-the-wall Seattle bike shop yesterday, and some young schmegagel was telling me that his "dream bike" is a "coupled Bilenky city bike". $10 says a year and dozens of internet hours ago he wanted a Surly Long Haul Trucker.

[soulspinner]

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s306/juliahensley/philly1x600.jpg


Yeah baby...

[Brian Smith]

I heart ATMO, yo.
DWF, I'm feelin' ya.

I know that whether this happens <here> or through a listserv, or a different forum, that it's still from one keyboard and monitor others, but yo, as ATMO stated indirectly... the Serotta Forum is not a hash-out zone for a yet-to-be-conceived show that happens after yet-to-be-finalized shows of a group of non-industry mavericks, or as someone else somewhat aptly put it, starving artists.

NAHMBS - ATMO is right, NAHMBS has brand draw. Put it in podunk, NoWhere and builders will show up and therefore afficianados will show up and attend. Ask your exhibitors, who make your show, where they want to be, not where some afficianados like the beer and have friends. I'll bet the exhibitors will say they like bike culture spots becuase they like the beer, riding, and have friends. What the hell difference is an extra $50/night for the room when you're already talking debt incurrence?

See there I go...
this isn't the place, even though it's my keyboard and monitor to yours.

Where's that link to the cyclingnews dream team picks again?

[OldDog]

Considering most of the quality builders seem to have a multi year backlog, moving the show to various pasts of the country seems to make sense to me, tapping potential buyers from all over. Yeah, if I want builders X's frame, I will just order it, show or no show. But hitting different markets can only be good for the builders. For the east coast, the philly - ny corridore may make the most sense, tapping into the New England to DC market.

Valley Forge, would be cool...only an hour and a half away for me. :beer:

But, I was born and raised on Ying :butt: Bring on the Victory.

[taz-t]

1) the need to make $$$
2) standards are lowered (or changed) for the sake of 1 above.
3) folks that have invested in this emotionally and intellectually
from day 1 start rethinking their priorities.

oh - and i am not refering to (only) myself atmo.
btw, as i wrote above, we (the constituants) have a listserve,
a website, and a forum on that website, and the show itself
has a website. there is also 1) a full cc email address field
that often receives emails, and 2) an inner circle of about
12 builders that routinely discusses and er, shapes, some of
the show's more in-your-face features. so, my puzzlement is
about why this message board is (now) being used to table
a discussion about something that is a year away from a show
that will occur in the winter of 2008. while it puzzles me on
several layers, one that is prominant is that through several
pms exchanged with a mod here, i was informed that the
board (and/or its host) did not see the value of this show
and would not attend. mp atmo.

thanks for the perspective... i've checked out the framebuilders listserv, but i don't post because i have nothing to contribute. That's your (meaning *all* the framebuilders, not just atmo) world and I just look through the window. If this same discussion had appeared there, I would have stayed quiet. As it happened here, and the thread started by DW, I thought the consumer's point of view was of interest (maybe wrong on that point). I think I understand where you're coming from - it's good to be able to meet/share with others in your field without having to be *on* for potential clients, or at least have the focus on the builders with the other being a sideline.

As for the regionalism (my town's better than your town), I think it's all in good fun. i'd personally like to see more bikie events happening in the southeast just because 1)it's more convenient for me and 2) seems like all the cool stuff is happening either west or north, especially since the cirque is coming to an end.

- taz
(and hey, can I expect an atmo special in 2010? :) )

[atmo]

thanks for the perspective... i've checked out the framebuilders listserv, but i don't post because i have nothing to contribute. That's your (meaning *all* the framebuilders, not just atmo) world and I just look through the window. If this same discussion had appeared there, I would have stayed quiet. As it happened here, and the thread started by DW, I thought the consumer's point of view was of interest (maybe wrong on that point). I think I understand where you're coming from - it's good to be able to meet/share with others in your field without having to be *on* for potential clients, or at least have the focus on the builders with the other being a sideline.

As for the regionalism (my town's better than your town), I think it's all in good fun. i'd personally like to see more bikie events happening in the southeast just because 1)it's more convenient for me and 2) seems like all the cool stuff is happening either west or north, especially since the cirque is coming to an end.

- taz
(and hey, can I expect an atmo special in 2010? :) )


of course. it's business mike, nothing personal.
hyman roth always made money for his partners atmo.

[atmo]

.

[NAHBS]

As it happened here, and the thread started by DW, I thought the consumer's point of view was of interest (maybe wrong on that point).


Bingo. I wanted to know what the attendee's felt.

It somehow was percieved that I wanted more input elsewhere.

hope I didnt get anyone riled up.

DW

[sailorboy]

Just saw this thread, so my vote is a little late but, you gotta have Pittsburgh on the very short list. I grew up there, came back from 03 to 05 when I was a cyclist to find a crazed cycling sub-culture. Any discussion of riding opportunities should be considered theoretical unless you are going to change the dates. Early March can throw you a decent few days, but don't count on it. It is a super area for riding in my experience as a cat 3 racer and club rider, there are a lot of strong riders trolling around there, and the dedicated club-level enthusiasts that go along with them. Early spring in the East and you are probably going to have a lot of people craving anything cycling too. Only a day's drive (a pretty one) from the more remote confines like New England, mid-atlantic population centers.

Hey Don here's a name you have to remember as well (if he still works there) Freddie Fu--he's a premier orthopedic surgeon who is also a bike nut. He has generously sponsored a local team for longer than US Postal did, and he is the guy behind the cycling performance center/lab at the sports medicine center there. You could probably make a great case to him for some sort of support as a sponsor. And hey you builders; he is known to buy bikes like some of my fellow sailors buy whores in Bangkok. No one knows for sure how many he has, but rest assured he would put dbrk to shame based on sheer numbers. True story: when the steelers built thier new practice complex and fields down by the river a few years back, they had to limit the lengths of the fields to 90 yards because building them a full 100 would take out the new bike path that goes along the river. Fu insisted that they would not do it, and said 90 yards was enough to practice on!

Sorry to be long-winded, but think hard on Pitt. Philly is a close second in my book.

[davids]

Bingo. I wanted to know what the attendee's felt.

It somehow was percieved that I wanted more input elsewhere.

hope I didnt get anyone riled up.

DW
Yeah, as a consumer, I just want it to be in my neighborhood. I know that's selfish, but that's what I want.

Beyond that, I want the show to be healthy and thrive. So I can attend the three-in-a-row East Coast events. ;)

[pluto.91488]

Albany, NY is not a bad choice. NYC would be OK, but may be too expensive for accomodations and for the convention space for DW. Albany offers reduced costs, an airport which is easy to get in an out off, Amtrak connections and is within 4 hours drive from Boston; 3 hours from NYC. 3 hours from Montreal. 4.5 from Toronto. That means folks like Sachs, Weigle, ANT, Viscous Cycles, Serotta, Michael Barry, Parlee, Cycle A, Peter Mooney, Jamie Swan, Oswald Cycles, Zanconato, and many others are capable of driving in w/o too much hassle. I haven't been able to go the other shows because they were too far away, Albany is about 2+ hrs away from me and gets my vote.

[CNY rider]

I love the Albany idea because it's convenient for me to get there. I would say that it adds a significant element of weather risk if the show is always in early March. That's still winter in upstate NY.

[trophyoftexas]

make it easy on you and me.......Big D, little a, double ll, as! Naw, just jokin', I think you should take it to St. Louis, smack-dab in the middle!

[Ken Robb]

we had several pal/attendees at this year's show who lost a whole day enroute from NY and other areas in the East due to weather-related flight delays so I don't think Albany or the like would be a wise choice.

[rwsaunders]

Sailorboy...PM sent on the same subject.

[goonster]

Edit: Oops, wrong thread.

[Charles M]

Charlotte... Nice Hub Airport

NY/NJ everyone can fly in directly to 3 airports.

Philly, ATL and Boston all are easy ports...



Hell, Miami!

I know theres a fan base for dark obscure brooding granola... And there are artisans and connoisseur that like the hole vampire skin tone / live and ride in the snow and wet cred that comes with crap climate... But I vote for what ever venue gives us the greates potential for swim up display / bar.



Screw the "semi" large towns. I'll Give up "cool" for easy and works better any day.

Add sun? done.

[Ahneida Ride]

Are you perhaps looking at Albany NY?



I'll vote for Albany .... Centrally located between NYC and Boston.

[Bob Ross]

I know Philly is in Eastern PA and is within a hundred miles or so of the ocean, so thats "east coast", however, Pittsburgh is still in the same state but is a few hundred miles away from the Atlantic, so is that more "midwest" or is it still east?

Where, geographically speaking, is the cutoff of "east coast" versus "midwest"?



I spent my first 10 years on this planet in Pittsburgh; from there moved to New York (20 miles north of NYC), then an interminable sequence of alternating between Boston and NYC. I have always considered myself a denizen of the East Coast. And when I lived in Pittsburgh all my friends & neighbors agreed that we lived on the East Coast.

All my relatives who lived in NYC or Baltimore at that time though thought we lived in the Midwest!

And admittedly, I've always thought the transition from East Coast to Midwest was the Pennsylvania/Ohio border...which, as I discovered when touring with a jazz band a number of years ago, is not very far from Pittsburgh at all...about as far as a drummer can drive before he realizes he's missed the exit & still turn around & make it to the gig on time.