Warming Balms/Embrocations

[bobscott]

Just found out that I have torn the muniscus in my knee. I believe from a long day of XC skiing...new fast skis and lots of falls. No surgury on the docket yet.

So now I want to take especially good care of my knees. Someone in a thread on knee warmers mentioned making their own warming balm/embrocation out of Tiger Balm and baby oil.

I was wondering about other embrocations people use. I would also love to get some recipes as I tend to favor "formulating" my own.

Thanks,
bobscott

[duke]

My favorite knee and leg warmer upper is Greyhound Juice. I buy it at River City Bikes in Portland, Or. but I'm sure a search would reveal other sources.
duke

[Too Tall]

I am keen on what these cats make: http://www.unconmed.com/products.htm

Good people. Great products. Can you say obscure?

[92degrees]

I've also been using Greyhound Juice (the regular strength).

[Ken Robb]

get it fixed NOW. I tore my meniscus and couldn't believe that ice and rest wouldn't take care of what I thought was a minor twist. After months of hope and denial I had the surgery. My delay had allowed the rough torn edge to scrape the inside of the joint. My recovery was pretty slow and I sometimes have some minor residual discomfort.

After 6 months of rehab I played 3 sets of tennis and should have quit but it was so much fun after such a long lay-off I agreed to play a fourth set---first point- I served wnet to the net, planted my feet for the volley and tore the meniscus in my other knee. Since I recognized the problem immediately this time I got in the operating room in two days. My recovery was much faster and the knee feels like new.

BTW, this experience wasd my motivation to give up tennis for cycling. Tennis is more fun but I don't want to have any more knee surgeries. Of course I am scheduled for shoulder surgery the Tuesday after Easter. Old age ain't for sissies and it seems my warranty must be up. :crap:

[obtuse]

Just found out that I have torn the muniscus in my knee. I believe from a long day of XC skiing...new fast skis and lots of falls. No surgury on the docket yet.

So now I want to take especially good care of my knees. Someone in a thread on knee warmers mentioned making their own warming balm/embrocation out of Tiger Balm and baby oil.

I was wondering about other embrocations people use. I would also love to get some recipes as I tend to favor "formulating" my own.

Thanks,
bobscott

warming embrocations?

take orally.

http://stranahans.com/index.php?fuseaction=main.home

obtuse

[JStonebarger]

Embrocations are just local skin irritants that divert blood to the surface of your skin. That makes you feel warm, but it doesn't help blood supply to the joint itself. Embrocations are not only ineffective, but quite possibly dangerous, as you'll feel warmer than you really are.

Take good care of your knees by covering them in cool weather, warming up gradually, and avoiding warming embrocations like the plague.

[Too Tall]

Embrocations are just local skin irritants that divert blood to the surface of your skin. That makes you feel warm, but it doesn't help blood supply to the joint itself. Embrocations are not only ineffective, but quite possibly dangerous, as you'll feel warmer than you really are.

Take good care of your knees by covering them in cool weather, warming up gradually, and avoiding warming embrocations like the plague.


Plague has never been a problem. I like the smell and it makes me feel like a real bike rider. Nertz, killjoy.

[bobscott]

Thanks for all the replies.
I had no plans to use them in leu of tights or some other covering but thanks for the warning.
My idea was to increase the circulation to the area, what counter irratants do. I was basing this on advice given in Andy Pruitt's book.
I have since done some Medline searches and find that they work pretty well in the delivery of some antiinflammatory drugs. Higher tissue concentrations can be reached with some of the NSAID drugs by local topical application than by oral dosing. I'll post a reference if any one is inclined.
bobscott

[orbea65]

Plague has never been a problem. I like the smell and it makes me feel like a real bike rider. Nertz, killjoy.

I like using them too, but I know it is really just a mental thing. I agree that all they do is irritate the skin. I hate when I read some companies literature about how their warm up stuff penetrates the muscles, etc. BS.

But its a nice way to give yourself a quick massage before starting.
Anyone else notice how the hotstuff is -really- hot -after- the ride, and especially after showering? Guess it really gets into the pores during the shower......burn!! :)

[Too Tall]

Regards the BS vs truth aspect of these embrocations (whatever) penetrating and or delivering meds to muscles...it is a depends answer. I've got some experience with this making custom cosmetics for some yrs. and recently found that my fav. "method" to formulate topical cremes/lotions etc. that have limited ability to deliver therapeutic materials thru the cornified layers of skin is now on the suspect / hit list of the FDA. I knew this would happen more than 10 yrs. ago when I first started doing this and was real careful about what went into these products and who used them. Bottom line, yes it is possible BUT improbable that any of the usual sports warming cremes etc. do this as their formulation are not similar to what I was doing. Long story to say yeah...it's mostly BS.

[chrisroph]

The embrocations work well if you have a little joint stiffness or pain that you need to mask. A bit on the knees can cause pain receptors to fire and cover or confuse the achiness of minor joint irritation. Whether it actually causes muscles to warm or not, I don't know but it is a good idea to keep the muscle covered if it is cold. My first coach, ted ernst, always said if it is below 70 F, keep your leg warmers on unless you are racing.

[bobscott]

Below is an address and a summary statement from an online clinical journal that reviews various treatments, here topical anesthetics. It is run by a group of Oxford scientists. They do get some "no strings attached" industry money but it looks legitimate and independent.
Rubefacient is another term for counterirritant. Oil of wintergreen contains methyl salycylate and it or similar aspirin-like compounds are in many of the warming balms, as well as, BenGay and the conventional topical treatments.
I was surprized by these results as well as others that indicated higher tissue concentrations of drug after topical treatment.

http://www.jr2.ox.ac.uk/bandolier/booth/painpag/topical/Topsumm.html
Summary
Topical rubefacients
Rubefacient studies consisted entirely of topical salicylates in trials using one week outcomes for acute conditions and two week outcomes for chronic conditions.

In acute conditions three double blind placebo-controlled trials had information from 182 patients. Topical salicylate was significantly better than placebo with relative benefit 3.6 (95% CI 2.4 to 5.6), NNT 2.1 (95% CI 1.7 to 2.8).
In chronic conditions six double-blind placebo-controlled trials had information from 429 patients. Overall, topical salicylate was significantly better than placebo with relative benefit 1.5 (95% CI 1.3 to 1.9), NNT 5.3 (95% CI 3.6 to 10.2), but larger, more valid, studies were without significant effect.
Local adverse events and withdrawals were generally rare in trials that reported them.

[Too Tall]

I missed where there was emperical evidence of any tissue levels.
Lemme cut to the chase. The preparations I began making many yrs. ago are so called and variously called "liposomal" due to their ability to mimic cell structures that pass (more) easily thru outter skin layers. Here is a terrible example of such a preparation. If interested follow the money as the saying goes...
PS - I do not make this or any cosmetic for $$....lately ;)
http://www.cetylmyristoleate.com/myristin_topical_cream.html

[bobscott]

First, apologies if this is getting too technical.

You are correct, Tootall, that there is no tissue info in the link I gave previously.

I am rushed today and cannot locate the review I saw of this area. But here is one paper that disscusses tissue concentration, albeit not in an oral versus topical format. As I recall there are some studies in animals that compare oral vs topical administration and measure tissue concentrations directly.

It should be also kept in mind that the chemistry of different compounds (lipid vs water solubility) will affect their ability to make it through the skin. So what is true for methylsalycylate may not be true for other compounds (even in liposomes).

Here is the abstract of the not perfect reference but it does show that methyl salycylate, the active compound in oil of wintergreen, gets in and concentrates in tissue at levels 30 fold those in the blood (plasma) .

Br J Clin Pharmacol. 1998 Jul;46(1):29-35. Links
Topical penetration of commercial salicylate esters and salts using human isolated skin and clinical microdialysis studies.Cross SE, Anderson C, Roberts MS.
Department of Medicine, University of Queensland, Princess Alexandra Hospital, Brisbane, Australia.

AIMS: The penetration of active ingredients from topically applied anti-inflammatory pharmaceutical products into tissues below the skin is the basis of their therapeutic efficacy. There is still controversy as to whether these agents are capable of direct penetration by diffusion through the tissues or whether redistribution in the systemic circulation is responsible for their tissue deposition below the application site. METHODS: The extent of direct penetration of salicylate from commercial ester and salt formulations into the dermal and subcutaneous tissue of human volunteers was determined using the technique of cutaneous microdialysis. We also examined differences in the extent of hydrolysis of the methylester of salicylate applied topically in human volunteers and in vitro skin diffusion cells using full-thickness skin and epidermal membranes. RESULTS: The present study showed that whilst significant levels of salicylate could be detected in the dermis and subcutaneous tissue of volunteers treated with the methylsalicylate formulation, negligible levels of salicylate were seen following application of the triethanolamine salicylate formulation. The tissue levels ofsalicylate from the methylsalicylate formulation were approx. 30-fold higher than the plasma concentrations. CONCLUSION: The absorption and tissue concentration profiles for the commercial methylsalicylate formulation are indicative of direct tissue penetration and not solely redistribution by the systemic blood supply.

[shinomaster]

http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=22228&highlight=salve

[rwsaunders]

I think the comment about the balm in the warmers was from Zank if I recall. Balm in the knickers came from that Aussie at ATMO's shrine in San Jose.

[Too Tall]

First, apologies if this is getting too technical.

You are correct, Tootall, that there is no tissue info in the link I gave previously.

I am rushed today and cannot locate the review I saw of this area. But here is one paper that disscusses tissue concentration, albeit not in an oral versus topical format. As I recall there are some studies in animals that compare oral vs topical administration and measure tissue concentrations directly.

It should be also kept in mind that the chemistry of different compounds (lipid vs water solubility) will affect their ability to make it through the skin. So what is true for methylsalycylate may not be true for other compounds (even in liposomes).

Here is the abstract of the not perfect reference but it does show that methyl salycylate, the active compound in oil of wintergreen, gets in and concentrates in tissue at levels 30 fold those in the blood (plasma) .

Br J Clin Pharmacol. 1998 Jul;46(1):29-35. Links
Topical penetration of commercial salicylate esters and salts using human isolated skin and clinical microdialysis studies.Cross SE, Anderson C, Roberts MS.
Department of Medicine, University of Queensland, Princess Alexandra Hospital, Brisbane, Australia.

AIMS: The penetration of active ingredients from topically applied anti-inflammatory pharmaceutical products into tissues below the skin is the basis of their therapeutic efficacy. There is still controversy as to whether these agents are capable of direct penetration by diffusion through the tissues or whether redistribution in the systemic circulation is responsible for their tissue deposition below the application site. METHODS: The extent of direct penetration of salicylate from commercial ester and salt formulations into the dermal and subcutaneous tissue of human volunteers was determined using the technique of cutaneous microdialysis. We also examined differences in the extent of hydrolysis of the methylester of salicylate applied topically in human volunteers and in vitro skin diffusion cells using full-thickness skin and epidermal membranes. RESULTS: The present study showed that whilst significant levels of salicylate could be detected in the dermis and subcutaneous tissue of volunteers treated with the methylsalicylate formulation, negligible levels of salicylate were seen following application of the triethanolamine salicylate formulation. The tissue levels ofsalicylate from the methylsalicylate formulation were approx. 30-fold higher than the plasma concentrations. CONCLUSION: The absorption and tissue concentration profiles for the commercial methylsalicylate formulation are indicative of direct tissue penetration and not solely redistribution by the systemic blood supply.


Thanks Bobbr' that was a decent summary of the current crop of embrocations routinely avail.