Using the front brake on descents

[Jeff N.]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it best to avoid using the front brake on long, fast, steep descents (to avoid "endo-ing" and front wheel wobble, etc.)? That's what I've always been told, but got into an argument with a guy who says using the front and rear brake in these conditions is just fine. I still say leave the front brake alone, for the most part. (I'm talking road riding here, not mountain).Whadda y'all think? Jeff N.

[David Kirk]

I strongly disagree.

If you grab a big handful of front brake without using good modulation you can and will get to slide on your chest down the road.

But if you want to stop quick or slow down suddenly the front brake is the one with stopping power. A big handful or rear brake will only cause it to lock up and slide without much reduction in speed. Learn to "threshold brake" with both brakes and you'll stop fast and straight every time.

Dave

[regularguy412]

Use 'em both. The front brake does more of the stopping, anyway. Just have to be careful not to heat up the rim too much -- especially when using tubular tires. If you get wobble, clamp both knees tight on the top tube. ( I'm assuming you are talking about a road bike and not MTB)

For an emergency stop, a technique I've used is to hit both brakes and keep squeezing until you just barely begin to feel the back wheel begin to lock,, then ease off the FRONT brake. In that way, you can get the most stopping power.

Mike in AR

[coylifut]

all of your braking should be done before entering the corner. off road, the front brake is for slowing and the rear for steering.

[mjb266]

Yup, come screaing towards the turn, slam on both brakes to slow down, lay off the brakes, start the turn, accelerate out of the turn.

Helps tons if you know the descent.

[JohnS]

I never saw him mention corners, just descents... :confused:

[mjb266]

good point...don't touch the brakes, aero tuck or sit up.

[inGobwetrust]

Rear brake only can also lead to fishtail.....very bad at high speed!

[Jeff N.]

No, I'm not talking about turns. I'm talking about hauling azz 47 mph down a straight, long, steep down grade. I once saw this gal do a 35+ mph END-OVER-END summersault because she braked with the front and rear brakes..she ran over a small bump, the front wheel came slightly off the ground and locked up, and when that same wheel came down, over she went, bike and all, flying end-over-end. The most horrific accident I've ever seen! All those with me who stopped to see if she was dead (I was almost certain she had to have been. She was subsequently hospitalized, remarkably nothing broken, but she slammed down HARD on her fanny, causing a bad hematoma. Her C'Dale was toast.) were saying to NEVER grab the front brake on a long, fast descent unless you absolutely had to, or that's what could result. I was just wondering if any of you are of the same opinion. Apparently not. Jeff N.

[Orin]

No, I'm not talking about turns. I'm talking about hauling azz 47 mph down a straight, long, steep down grade. I once saw this gal do a 35+ mph TRIPLE END-OVER-END summersault because she braked with the front and rear brakes..she ran over a small bump, the front wheel came slightly off the ground and locked up, and when that same wheel came down, over she went, bike and all, flying end-over end. The most horrific accident I've ever seen! All those with me who stopped to see if she was dead (I was almost certain she had to have been. She was subsequently hospitalized, remarkably nothing broken, but she slammed down HARD on her fanny, causing a bad hematoma. Her C'Dale was toast.) were saying to NEVER use the front brake on a long, fast descent unless you absolutely had to, or that's what could result. I was just wondering if you guys are of the same opinion. Apparently not. Jeff N.

And what happened to Beloki a few years back is what can happen if you lose the rear wheel and it hooks up again.

Not to detract from such a horrific accident, but I'd never heard of such a thing before and certainly wouldn't modify my braking behavior because of it. Not using the front brake on a steep descent sounds like a recipe for not being able to stop or slow when necessary.

Orin.

[Ken Robb]

when we teach driving on track we work hard to avoid certain words/terms that convey the wrong mental picture like "slamming on the brakes, hammering the gas, mash the accelerator,etc." "Grabbing the brakes" on a bike would also be on our list of no-no terms.

We like to say "squeeze the brakes or gas" or "ease on the gas" which we hope helps the students avoid upsetting the vehicle even when ABS and/or traction control will prevent totalling locking or spinning the wheels.

In other words too much front brake will lead to road rash but there is no way to approach maximum decelleration without skillful use of the front brake.

[Ken Robb]

stuttered

[dauwhe]

When I'm poking around a bike shop, I often try the brakes, just to see how they feel. In some cases it feels like there's just "on" and "off", with no modulation whatsoever. I don't know what it is about the setup (pads really close to rims?), but I could imagine getting into trouble if you weren't cautious with the brake lever.

Out on the road, perhaps some combinations of brakes, pads, and rims are just 'grabby', and don't allow good modulation...

Just speculating...

Dave, who's a big fan of the Paul Centerpulls for great modulation!

[swoop]

the girl fell because she shouldn't have been going fast on a bike because she lacked basic skill.
use both your brakes.

go practice just using one or the other and see how they feel.
go practice modulating both and also one or the other.
go practice skidding and steering the skid.

all your stopping power is in the front wheel.
use the back brake and the front.. but not with the same force. you have to develop a feel. it.. like all things on a bike is a skill.

its not like a car where you just hit the pedal like a dumb cow.
bikes require skill. skill comes from practice and exploration and feel.


notice how your center of gravity changes during braking. use that.
notice how a bike wants to go striaght under braking.
use that too.

they are are just tools that become instinct via playing, practicing, pushing the envelop in a safe environ.. etc.

[chuckred]

Sheldon Brown Article on Braking (http://sheldonbrown.com/brakturn.html)

Front is the main stopping brake - listed exceptions include:

Front wheel in air (bumpy)

Key is to push your weight back when you're stopping! Try it on a mountain bike some time. Unless on a really loose surface, you can go down incredibly steep terrain using primarily the front brake - if you get your weight back...

Re: using rear for steering - skidding your turns, unless on a race course is very VERY bad form and gives us a bad name, f's up the trails, etc. But, I know that isn't what you meant...


I set up my front on the right back inthe 70's - and have ever since. Dominant hand is stronger and has more control... not really sure why the standard is the other way around?

[Too Tall]

Yah paid good $$ for two brakes pal...use em' or lose em'. Seriously, both brakes.

[gt6267a]

Sheldon Brown Article on Braking (http://sheldonbrown.com/brakturn.html)

Front is the main stopping brake - listed exceptions include:

Front wheel in air (bumpy)

Key is to push your weight back when you're stopping! Try it on a mountain bike some time. Unless on a really loose surface, you can go down incredibly steep terrain using primarily the front brake - if you get your weight back...

Re: using rear for steering - skidding your turns, unless on a race course is very VERY bad form and gives us a bad name, f's up the trails, etc. But, I know that isn't what you meant...


I set up my front on the right back inthe 70's - and have ever since. Dominant hand is stronger and has more control... not really sure why the standard is the other way around?

I always here people talk about how the front brake stops you and the back break does not do a whole lot. Well, A few mtn bike rides ago, the rear disc pads finally ate through themselves leaving me front brake only. Guess what? I really did not have much stopping power.

This was not a conclusive or grand study, but to say all the work is done by the front is just plain BS.

[Jeff N.]

Sheldon Brown Article on Braking (http://sheldonbrown.com/brakturn.html)

Front is the main stopping brake - listed exceptions include:

Front wheel in air (bumpy)

Key is to push your weight back when you're stopping! Try it on a mountain bike some time. Unless on a really loose surface, you can go down incredibly steep terrain using primarily the front brake - if you get your weight back...

Re: using rear for steering - skidding your turns, unless on a race course is very VERY bad form and gives us a bad name, f's up the trails, etc. But, I know that isn't what you meant...


I set up my front on the right back inthe 70's - and have ever since. Dominant hand is stronger and has more control... not really sure why the standard is the other way around?Right! The road, at one point, WAS BUMPY and when the front wheel came momentarily off the ground, the front wheel locked because she had the front brake applied and over she went. I should've emphasized that more. Absolutely, if you're going 35 or 40 plus and must have MAX decelleration, and the road is super smooth...and I hope I never do...by all means use both brakes with modulation, shift your weight back, etc. But on steep, long, wicked, straight descents that're bumpy in spots and I'm flying down said road, and for some reason I find the need to slow down some, I avoid the front brake unless absolutely necessary. Period. That being all said, I thank you all for your input! Good stuff to dwell on. Jeff N.

[Jeff N.]

the girl fell because she shouldn't have been going fast on a bike because she lacked basic skill.
use both your brakes.

go practice just using one or the other and see how they feel.
go practice modulating both and also one or the other.
go practice skidding and steering the skid.

all your stopping power is in the front wheel.
use the back brake and the front.. but not with the same force. you have to develop a feel. it.. like all things on a bike is a skill.

its not like a car where you just hit the pedal like a dumb cow.
bikes require skill. skill comes from practice and exploration and feel.


notice how your center of gravity changes during braking. use that.
notice how a bike wants to go striaght under braking.
use that too.

they are are just tools that become instinct via playing, practicing, pushing the envelop in a safe environ.. etc.She's a seasoned Tri-geek. Or was, anyway. Jeff N.

[BoulderGeek]

She's a seasoned Tri-geek. Or was, anyway. Jeff N.

Sounds like a combination of riding the brake and being too-far-forward weight biased.

I like to engage the brakes in tandem, and release them when their braking is done. Hanging on to the brakes and riding them can lead to tire overpressure, glazing of pads, rim wear and accidents.

Squeeze. Release. Repeat.

YMMV.

[Grant McLean]

She's a seasoned Tri-geek. Or was, anyway. Jeff N.


I guess I could make an insensitive & politically incorrect comment
about triathlete riding skills... but instead I'll just suggest that
you 'rear only' brake guys better not be riding on my rear wheel,
cause i'm the last of the late brakers. You'll get a face full of
my back wheel if you don't use both hands!


“See God. Then back off” - Kevin Schwantz
g

[Grant McLean]

This was not a conclusive or grand study, but to say all the work is done by the front is just plain BS.


You are correct. It's not 100% front - it's 70-80% front 20-30% rear,
unless you're Fred Flintstone, then it's 10% feet...

g

[cpg]

Personally it depends.

Long straight descent- Why brake? If I have to then both.
Winding descent- Come into the corner hot, grab the front, dive in and release the brake through the curve. If I'm coming in too hot I do the same but feather the rear brake additionally. Unless it's wet or icy. NOw that's a different beast.

Curt

[Kevan]

You are correct. It's not 100% front - it's 70-80% front 20-30% rear,
unless you're Fred Flintstone, then it's 10% feet...

g

then it's 100% feet. Old habits die hard. Note all the duct tape on the toes of his shoes. Saves on toenail clipping too!

[vaxn8r]

Jeff, with all due respect, your friend wasn't riding/braking with good technique. Simple as that. She locked up her front wheel after losing contact with the ground? That sounds like panic. First off, if she'd been relaxed and in control she ought to have absorbed the shock(s). Sounds like inexperience.

I echo other sentiments, I use both...but without death grip.

As others have alluded to, in my experience triathletes are strong as all heck but a huge percentage of them have never learned to ride in traffic or groups or anything that requires technical skills. Head down on a trainer or on aeros looking at down at the road is 90% of what they do.

Finally, some people seem to crash all the time and others very rarely. Sometimes there's nothing you can do but some people just understand how to ride a bike at speed.

[SoCalSteve]

When I'm poking around a bike shop, I often try the brakes, just to see how they feel. In some cases it feels like there's just "on" and "off", with no modulation whatsoever. I don't know what it is about the setup (pads really close to rims?), but I could imagine getting into trouble if you weren't cautious with the brake lever.

Out on the road, perhaps some combinations of brakes, pads, and rims are just 'grabby', and don't allow good modulation...

Just speculating...

Dave, who's a big fan of the Paul Centerpulls for great modulation!

Yes, brakes can be adjusted to have more or less "throw" (for lack of a better term) if the pads are closer or farther away from the rim braking surface.

[zap]

There was a time long long ago when a good friend and I only rode with front brakes. Ditched the rear brake to save some weight. We rode every freaking hill with all sorts of twists and turns really fast and we did fine. If we really needed to nail the brake, we slide back some.

A rear brake comes in handy if one needs to kick out the rear end in order to take some evasive action.

Speaking of tri riders, we rode with a strong(ish), young fellow 2 weeks ago. Squirrelly in a pace line so we spanked him a few times. After the ride, he stated that his goal for this particular ride was not to crash. BrilliaNT.

[Grant McLean]

Yes, brakes can be adjusted to have more or less "throw" (for lack of a better term) if the pads are closer or farther away from the rim braking surface.

funny story....

I kinda like to keep the pads far away from the rims, it's just how i've always
set up the brakes on my bikes. Especially the mtb, i call it the "2nd chance"
as the extra time it takes to engage the brakes to the rims gives me the
chance to avoid braking, since like most people, the instinct to slow down
is usually over-developed, anyway, get to the funny story...

So my bike is sitting in the shop one day, and one of the part timer mechanics
is standing over it, squeezing the brakes. My pal walks into the shop, sees
that this young kid is on my bike... thinking that if I see him, he's going to
get a slap down, he heads over to my bike, not realizing that i'm also near by.

The young kid sez to my pal... Grant doesn't like his brakes like this does he?
as sets about winding out the barrell adjusters, to bring the pads in towards
the rims. My pal goes apoplectic... WHAT are YOU doing?! of course he likes
them set like that! why else would they be that way!! At which point i bust
a gut laughing... And spend the next ride buzzing the back wheel of the shop
monkey, apologizing for not being able to slow down. :) Ah kids....

g

[Jeff N.]

Forget mountain biking. Somebody explain the dynamics of "endo-ing" to me. In road riding terms.What's going to cause that to happen? Hmm? Jeff N.

[inGobwetrust]

Forget mountain biking. Somebody explain the dynamics of "endo-ing" to me. In road riding terms.What's going to cause that to happen? Hmm? Jeff N.


Whether it's road or mountain biking the reason is the same. Weight too far forward (or too high) and pulling too much brake too fast. A panic stop, which generally stops the bike but sends the rider hurtling through space. One of the most important lessons I learned when I used to race DH was to feather the brakes and shift weight appropriately.

[swoop]

go practice nose wheelies on your road bike and you can find the exact point that an endo is born.

doesn't anyone go futz around on their bikes for the sake of handling anymore?

[Matt Barkley]

Mega-front-brake. :beer:

[Jeff N.]

So you're saying too much brake...to much FRONT brake, coupled with weight too far foreward, is the culprit. OK. Then I say if you lay off the front brake as much as possible, when blasting down a hill, you eliminate the possibility of endo-ing on the road. Right? And you also reduce or eliminate wheel wobble that the front brake can create, in the same scenario, that I have heard some riders complain about. Right? Or is that caused by something else? Jeff N.

[chuckred]

Forget mountain biking. Somebody explain the dynamics of "endo-ing" to me. In road riding terms.What's going to cause that to happen? Hmm? Jeff N.

Step one- get a photographer lined up to take an action shot of the team in a "pace line:.

Step two - go a quarter of a mile up the road and line up.

Step three - as the "pace line" starts to roll out, have someone in the back yell "close it up" - which is interpreted by those in the front as a reason to "grab a handful of brake" and those in the back as a reason to stand up to accelerate.

Step four - the person who stands up to accelerate notices the sudden stop of those infront, and grabs the front brake, realizes as the rear wheel is going straight up that he is standing with a handfull of front brake on and there's no where to go...

Step five - Plant face.

Step six - remember the joys of scrubbing gravel from face and living with gooey vaseline for the next week or so...

http://images.kodakgallery.com/photos1764/1/87/22/12/53/0/53122287110_0_ALB.jpg

[Tailwinds]

Step one- get a photographer lined up to take an action shot of the team in a "pace line:.

http://images.kodakgallery.com/photos1764/1/87/22/12/53/0/53122287110_0_ALB.jpg

OMG, I remember that! :bike:

Another option -- DOGS. :crap:

[chuckred]

[QUOTE=Tailwinds]OMG, I remember that! :bike:

QUOTE]

One of those things I really wish you would forget!!!

[stevep]

always front brake, unless you dont wanna stop.
stay low...youll be allright.

[Len J]

So you're saying too much brake...to much FRONT brake, coupled with weight too far foreward, is the culprit. OK. Then I say if you lay off the front brake as much as possible, when blasting down a hill, you eliminate the possibility of endo-ing on the road. Right? And you also reduce or eliminate wheel wobble that the front brake can create, in the same scenario, that I have heard some riders complain about. Right? Or is that caused by something else? Jeff N.

told me, a long time ago.......

If you ever take air on a descent......immediately release the brakes.........the only things that can happen when you come down, if you are gripping the brakes is bad.

Sounds to me like she panicked.

Len

[Dave]

The only reason to apply any braking during a descent, when no corner is approaching would be to reduce speed because the road is too rough. If the road is smooth, then no braking is the smartest thing to do. If braking is required, moderate application of both brakes is wise. The brakes should not be appled continuously, to avoid excessive heat build-up.

I try to avoid any mountain route that has such crappy roads that I can't fly down at maximum attainable speed. As I approach a corner, I use both brakes, but the front does FAR more of the job than the rear, particularly on Campy equipped bikes with the single pivot rear brake. The rear brake intentionally has far less braking power, making it difficult, but not impossible to lock up the rear tire. I did it once when a car I was tailing decided to slam on the brakes. Believe me that a car can stop a lot faster than a bike on a mountain descent. I've come into corners at 40mph and waited longer than I should to brake. A hard, but properly modulated application of the fornt brake never caused me any problems. I've descended the same 10 mile winding descent a few hundred times now and never wrecked yet.

It's well proven that cars, motorcyles and bikes all need far more braking power on the front than the rear. Cars with disc brakes will have much larger ventilated discs on the front and smaller, often nonventilated, discs on the rear. Motorcyles are the same. A sport bike will have two large discs on the front and only one smaller disc on the rear.

The example of the poor braking on a mountain bike with only a front brake is an example of an undersized front brake, not that the rear brake does a major amount of the work.

Motorcycle training courses usually contend that about 75% of the braking is done with the front brakes. Some claim even more. Locking up a rear brake can have some really nasty results.

[bcm119]

I think descending is a complicated skill that can't be learned by adhering to a few simple rules of thumb, especially rules based on anecdotal stuff like the tri-girl flipping over. Bumps, corners, road surfaces etc. all dictate how you/your bike respond in terms of brake modulation and weight distribution, something the tri-girl just didn't have a feel for yet. Maybe she didn't see the bumps, maybe she did and didn't have that second-nature reaction to release the brake and push the bike forward... who knows. Its just experience.

One good rule of thumb though- watch where you're going. It doesn't take a very large rock to taco a front wheel if you're descending weight-forward.

[mjb266]

I hate to get on a soapbox but the best way to learn how to use the brakes is to jump into a cyclocross race once or twice. There is nothing like trying to use just your rear brake on a downhill only to findout that it won't slow you down. Overcooking corners are par for the course and the consequences usually involve getting muddy or breaking through the course tape (no bug deal). You'll learn how to modulate brakes prior to hitting rough patches, how to lay off the brakes in the slime and bumps, and how to run it full bore into the turn only to slam on BOTH brakes to get around before that guy you just passed.

Find a bike and a slimy couse and have some fun improving you skills. There are plenty of old guys doing it (atmo) so it's not just for the young ones. Practice races are okay but the USCF stuff is a great time.

[dschlichting]

I try to do a tour in the Alps every year and have done so for the last 26 years. My current touring set up is a Spectrum Ti touring bike with Record dual pivot brakes and Mavic ceramic rims, panniers and handlebar bag. The steep (relative to the Rockies) road on the high Alpine passes and tight switchbacks make use of both brakes mandatory. My usual position is hands on drops, top tube clamped between knees/tights and pedals level. Although the Spectrum is rock solid at 55mph, the top tube/thigh thing is a hold over from the predecessor Proteus which was not quite in the same league. In this position, it is also possible to push yourself a little higher off the bars and get some aerodynamic braking, but while this might work in the wider switchbacks of the Rockies, it is not good for much in the Alps. Key to a safe descent is to never let one's speed get out of hand. Release the front bake in any case the instant you feel a vibration in the front of the bike to avoid the wheel lockup from washboard roads to which one poster referred. Between use of chains and general winter weather, most high pass roads are not smooth. If you're a little too hot going into a turn, increase the bank angle, just as a motorcycle does. I always tell friends who come with me the first time: no sightseeing on descents. Unwavering attention to the road. Pull over, rest the hands and neck and do the gawking then.

[jsfoster]

[QUOTE=swoop]

notice how your center of gravity changes during braking. use that.
notice how a bike wants to go striaght under braking.
use that too.


I thought that I would mention that moving your bottom back- at times way back- is part of downhill braking. get you weight back, so that you can 'modulate' your brakes.
-Jon
(never really gone over 42 mph)

[soulspinner]

go practice nose wheelies on your road bike and you can find the exact point that an endo is born.

doesn't anyone go futz around on their bikes for the sake of handling anymore?


+1