$2,000 bikes vs. $6,000 bikes

[PanTerra]

The following is a question posed by a relatively newbie in our local bike club. He was riding a Trek 1000, upgraded to a Trek 2300. I thought, what better place to post this to get a few comments on this subject. So here goes:

"What's the difference between a $6000 bike and a $2000 bike? I know the
answer is not, "The duck." They both weigh within a couple of pounds of
each other and I find it hard to believe you'd pay $4K for 2 pounds worth
of weight so it must be something else. Anyone?"

So far, his only response has been, "$4,000." Not too helpful. i could respond, the ride quality, the fit, or just tell him to go test ride a Serotta and that he wouldn't want to go back, that is what happend to me when I rode my CSi, but I have to believe it is more tangible than that. I just wanted to open it up to a group that would muse a little deeper.

[Tom]

I don't actually know what a DA or Chorus group actually costs, or how much you can trim one down and mix in cheaper parts and get the same result, but when you can rely on the parts to work perfectly every time for thousands of miles at a time you start to see the difference.

This answer stays away from the intangibles, I think. Somebody else can discuss the ephemeral.

[bostondrunk]

It ain't the fit. 99.9999% of people can fit to stock sizing just fine. God, look how screwed up some of the so called custom fits are, and as we all know, every 'fitter' will give you a different result (and I don't just mean Serotta fitters), soooo...
4k usually gets you:
1. Yes, usually a lighter bike. Nice to have, but won't win a race for you.
2. Likely a more unique ride, not everyone will have the same bike as you.
3. Higher end components, which again, will not win a race for you, but may look nicer and may feel a little smoother.
4. A nicer toy? why not, its partly a hobby for many of us..

Next time he asks, ask him why he isn't driving a Kia instead of whatever car he/she has.......

[bostondrunk]

BTW, a friend of mine bought a Trek 2300 a couple of years ago, at least I think that is the model, Aluminum frame, Ultegra group, Bontrager wheels, stem, etc. I think she paid about $1650 + tax. Very nice ride IMHO (the bike).

[dirtdigger88]

1.25 lbs. At least in my case. My Lemond Zurich is/was a $2000.00 bike and my Legend is a $6000.00 bike and the total weight difference is 1.25 lbs. That is going from Ultegra to DA 10. Now my Serotta is a 60 cm while my Zurich is a 57 cm so that accounts for some of the closeness in weight. This biggest difference to me however cannot be measured by "standard" measurment tools. Comfort being one of the biggest. My lower back does not hurt me after long or very hard efforts like it does on my Zurich. Fit on the bike (which goes along with comfort). On my Zurich, to get the cockpit reach that I want I had to push my saddle back so that I am riding about 3 cm behind the spindle on my pedals. That is well and good, except I am a spinner and I want to be over top of my pedals. When I ride my zurich I am constantly moving back and forth on the saddle to find my sweet spot. On my Serotta I was able to adjust the seat angle and slightly streatch the top tube so that I get my reach I want and I am 1 cm behind the spindle like I want. So what do you get for you extra 4k? Fit, finish, comfort, style, and 1.25 lbs :p Was it worth it? For me. . . Hell yes!!!

Jason

[Too Tall]

In what context? Did he say? Racing, recreational riding perhaps. It makes some difference.

[Serotta PETE]

Only One Opinion

The market is flooded with good bikes for $1000 and more (some even for as little as $800). All these will do pretty much what most folks want them to do and with rare exception will fit to a "well enough" degree.

Example is last year on vacation, I rented a Speicalized road Bike with 105. It served my needs very well. Rode good and shifted okay. It met all my needs for that 10 days. Would I want to ride it everyday at home -" no ". Could it meet my needs every day - "yes.". Did it slow me down in terms of speed "no" . Could I go as fast down hill or on curvy roads "almost". But I had no thoughts of wanting it in place of a Serotta, Sachs, Kirk, etc.....

Bottom line is that one needs to first figure your needs "wants", budget, and for lack of a better word "lust".

There is a fellow in NJ named Freddy Hoffman who has put somewhere around One Million miles on a bike. I do not know what he is riding now, but I can tell you ALL his previous bikes were under $1000.

So, the question of differences between a $2000 and a $4000 bike become sone of "your view of value and not one of the parts that make up the package"-Expecially in these days of aluminum bikes with 105/Ultega.

I am a very biased Serotta person but have recommended many more none Serotta bikes than Serotta bikes. I have had the opportunity to ride many brands over the past 30 years, but nothing puts the smile on my face like a Serotta.

In spite of this I have recommended more non-Serotta bikes that Serottas. WHY?? I want people to go out and ride...90 Plus percent of them will not have in their buget to spend the $$s for a Serotta - nor do their current requirements need a Serotta.

I WANT THEM OUT THERE RIDING!. For me it is the freedom, friendship, and exercise you gain from riding. (Forget what one is riding or the "technical" advantages of some gadget over some other one.)

Many of these same folks years later have purchased a Serotta and sometime more than one (as their wants and possibly their stated budget status have changed). We all spend our $$s on what we want. I have a friend who can buy anything he wants but will ride a tire till the air shows through or a pair of shorts until there is more "day light" than material showing. (Not a pretty site). In spite of this he will go to NYC and drop $1000 many times a year for plays and dinners.

Bikes are alot like cameras, stereo, cars, boats, shotguns, watches, clothes, etc....Once you reach a certain basic point of requirements, it is "WANT over NEED!!"

THis is a topic for Open House and much wine and Sierra Nevada brew!!!!

Have a good memorial day. PETE

[coylifut]

Have him do a double century and swap between his Aluminum Trek and a properly fitted Serotta, Seven, Spectrum...every 50 miles or so. He'll get it. I take the family on a 1,500 mile road trip every year. In the mid 90s, we had a Honda Accord, a very adequate car. The Honda was totaled (while parked) and we replaced it with a Mercedes E320. My 5 year old could even tell the difference. I have an 853 tig welded steel bike with fenders on it. The bike really beats me up compared to my Ti bike. The steel bike started it’s life as a 2k bike. The ride quality might be subtle to some, but for those of us who log 10k miler per year, the differences are quite stark.

[SBash]

The difference is $4000! The rest is legs and lungs.

[Len J]

Look at any purchase we make.

Why do you buy a new car, when an old car is available for 1/2 the price?
Why do you buy a $24,000 Accord when you could get a KIA for $10,000?
Why do you buy a $2000 Trek 2300 when you could get a Fuji for $1,000?
Why do you put Ultegra on a bike when 105 is 98% as functional and cheaper?
Why do you wear a watch other than a cheapo?

To me it's all about value received for the money spent AND the relative cost to me. I've been lucky in life to have a career where I make alot of money. In addition, all 4 of my children's education is taken care of (either they are out of school or I have enough put away). A $6,000 bike, for me, at this point in my life, does not consume a significant part of my disposable income. Like I said, I've been lucky. 12 or so years ago, (Mid 30's) I couldn't have bought a $1,000 bike. Why? My oldest was 12. I had 4 kids getting ready for college. I had gone thru a divorce and was supporting two households. I was making significantly less than I am now. Why the long winded history?.......to show that the purchase of a $6,000 bike is relative to the situitation you are in and what that expenditure means to you.

I bought a Legend (as opposed to a Trek 2300 (for example), because:

1.) I wanted a custom bike. Not just a custom fit but custom ride characteristice, longer chainstays, upright geometry, a pump peg, custom colors and decals, and designed for the kind of riding I do....long distance.

2.) I didn't want a bike that I would see on every ride.

3.) I could afford it, without taking anything from my family.

Did I get a performance imrpovement linearly proportinate to the $4,000 extra I spent?.......No I didn't. Did I get exactly what I wanted?....Yes I did.

Part of the joy in life, to me, is enjoying some of the finer things. No one would deny that driving a BMW is much more fun than driving a KIA. Nor that the engineering and quality was better. Where people would disagree is wether or not the difference in performance is worth the price. I think more than half the differences in opinion on what is worth it and what is not is based on how much money the person rendering the opinion has.

I have heard the same person who says they would never spend $6,000 on a bike turn around when asked what would you buy if someone gave you $5,000,000 and say.......I'd buy a Porsche (or some other exotic car). What's the difference...........the difference is the amount of money you have and what's important to you.

My thoughts

Len

[Dekonick]

The Ride.

Sometimes its just brand name envy, but with Serotta - its the ride.

[ericmurphy]

It's mostly the same thing as it is with cars. A $12,000 Nissan Sentra will do 90% of what a $230,000 Aston Martin will do (especially when you consider the speed limit in most places is less than 75 MPH). In fact, the Nissan probably makes a lot more sense for picking up the groceries than the Aston Martin does.

But spend 15 minutes behind the wheel of the Aston Martin and tell me you can't tell the difference.

Ride a $1,000 Cannondale for 5 miles and a $7,500 Legend for 5 miles, and you'll probably think "what's all the excitement about?" Now ride them both for 100 miles, and see which one you like better.

[Serotta PETE]

Have him do a double century and swap between his Aluminum Trek and a properly fitted Serotta, Seven, Spectrum...every 50 miles or so. He'll get it. I take the family on a 1,500 mile road trip every year. In the mid 90s, we had a Honda Accord, a very adequate car. The Honda was totaled (while parked) and we replaced it with a Mercedes E320. My 5 year old could even tell the difference. I have an 853 tig welded steel bike with fenders on it. The bike really beats me up compared to my Ti bike. The steel bike started it’s life as a 2k bike. The ride quality might be subtle to some, but for those of us who log 10k miler per year, the differences are quite stark.

Could not agree with you more.......Pete

[Too Tall]

This is fun....just for giggles I can name two road bikes that are way undervalued and are less than $2K.

1. Bianchi Veloce $1,599
2. Lemond Arrivee' $1,999

I'd rather spend the bucks and ride a CIII natch.

[shinomaster]

the bikes are far more similar than different...

AT the high end I think you just pay more for a brand names and carbon parts..

[Dr. Doofus]

99.9999% of all people do not fit "well" on the stock bikes that are available at one's LBS (I'm not counting mail order...mail order is evil unless you're dealing with the builder himself)....

I'm no anatomical freak...but I know my setup...74 STA, zero setback post, reach 56.5, drop 9, 1 cm behind the spindle.... Now, in a production frame, I can line these things up fine on a Gios (not available at any LBS) or a Coppi (not available around here)...sure, I could ram my seat 1 cm forward on a 73 STA bike, or a whopping 2cm forward on a Lemond, and run a 150 stem to compensate, and have most of my body weight way forward on those bikes...it would handle like ****.

I cast my vote with the "the more you ride, the more difference you are aware of" camp...I love my 2800.00 CSi and my 800.00 Merckx, and I'll probably love my 750.00 Mercian when it shows up...because they all have the same STA and TT...in short, they fit, and they're made well...now, the CSi rides better than any of the others (no way my 625, round-tubed, arriere-garde brit bike will ride better than that CSi...that CSi rides better than any steel bike the Doc has ever been on since 1981), but the difference is subtle. I've taken the Corsa to training crits and haven't noticed anything about the bike after the hammer gets dropped.

I don't think it's all about price. Its about geometry, tube shape, fit, and then materials...a 5000.00 Team SC will still be a ****ty bike for me after I ram the seat up far enough to get 5cm of setback and find a 150 stem...where a 2000.00 budget aluminum Coppi would be fine....


On a side note, the Corsa kind of bugged me because it had a tendency to understeer, given that it has a 73HA, 43mm rake, and a 59 top...then I dropped my bars to get back to my 9cm drop "summerflexy" position, and it changed the handling nicely...more weight on the front wheel, and the understeer dissappeared...just goes to show...ride a long, low stem...otherwise your bike will handle like a donkey...at least by racer-dork standards....

[Andreu]

.........of ever decreasing returns. There is a big difference in bikes between $500 and $3000....and the differences after $4000? well....we start to nit pick.
A

[Sandy]

I agree with you totally. But you could nit pick way before $4,000. Undoubtedly, there are bikes around $2,000 that I would prefer over some bikes that are over $4,000. You could buy several CIII bikes for the price of my single Ottrott, and the CIII is a fantastic bike. Some would prefer it to the Ottrott. The law of diminishing returns is in full effect WAY before $6,000, probably much closer to $3,000, maybe even much lower.

A bike at around $2,000 dollars would probably not have the component group, or wheels, or fork, or frame equal to a $6,000 bike, since the $4,000 must be for something. But as you move up in price from the $2,000, you start to equalize items like component group, wheels, fork,..., WAY before you get close to $6,000.

[eddief]

We all know by now if we just wanted to go from point a to point b we could do it on a Schwinn Varsity. Fit is impt. Ego is impt. Comfort is impt. Handling is impt. For many, bikes are trophies. And that's ok. I believe at some piont right around $2k it becomes trophy and ego...even mine. The best I can figure out is that between $2k and $6k is around 912 grams and that comes out to about $4.50 per gram.

[M_A_Martin]

I think there's a far greater difference between a
$300 and $700 bike
a $700 and $2000 bike
than a $2000 and $6000 bike.

Below $2000 the frame quality and component differences are greater than in the above $2000 bike. You can actually see the difference in a bike that costs $700 and one that costs $1500

I've gotten people hooked on riding with the $300-$700 bikes. As they put more miles on they want something feels better and is more efficient so they move up to the $700-$2000 bikes.

Some people never get into the $2000 and above bikes. Why? they're happy with their bikes.

[vaxn8r]

99.9999% of all people do not fit "well" on the stock bikes that are available at one's LBS (I'm not counting mail order...mail order is evil unless you're dealing with the builder himself).....


Sorry Doc but I couldn't disagree with you more. I think as many people are screwed up by there fitter as are helped. Otherwise why can one go to 3 fitters and get 3 completely different fits? I think there is not a lot out there for the very tall and the very small. Otherwise, most people want custom because well, it's custom and that means more exclusive. Not that there's anything wrong with that, at least until you try to sell it.

Two more very nice rides under $2K:

Cannondale R1000, Caad7 frame, decent wheels, Ultegra/105
Specialized Allez, again, pretty nice compact frame, good wheels and Ultegra.

No way would either of these bikes slow you down. I also don't get the "ride it for a 100 miles" comment. I've spent all day on my Cannondale. If you think the CAAD 7 frame is too rough or stiff try a different set of wheels or tires because it aint the frame.

[bostondrunk]

Vaxenator has it right. Sure, if yer the odd guy who needs to jam your seat 3 inches forward, then maybe a custom fit might be a little better, but probably not a lot.
'Dales rule, and you can get them cheap at gvhbikes.com

[ericmurphy]

This is from a posting I did a while ago talking about buying a $7,500 Legend Ti:



Is it too much bike for me? Probably. Exorbitantly expensive? Doubtless. A vanity project? Of course. But that’s not the point. First, I had to work hard to get this bike; it will have taken me about a year to save for it. Think I’ll appreciate it when I get it? Second, the bike is so far beyond my ability as a cyclist that I’ll probably never feel like I’m pushing it to its limits, nor will I wish I’d gotten anything else. I doubt I’ll ever run into another bike much better than mine, no matter where I ride. This bike wouldn’t be out of place at the Tour de France (other than the lack of huge corporate logos on it).

And fourth, I’ll have a bike that, aside from being a work of art, will be uniquely mine. It will have been made exactly to my specifications, and everything about it will be that way because I wanted it that way.


Anything wrong with a vanity project? I don't think so, unless you're starving your children to afford it.

[Ken Robb]

I just came from my LBS and was amazed at a bargain litespeed. Firenze is ti with carbon fork, Mavic Cosmos wheels and full Ultegra for $2095!! I didn't ride it of course but I have always found any Litespeed near my size to be a pretty good ride. The top tube was noticeable bigger diameter than on the Arenberg next to it. That was last years bargain bike but it was 105 groupo for $2200. The Firenze has a dull finish which saves time and $$ over the brushed or polished finish on other models so they pass it on to the customers.

[Peter]

The difference is certainly not reflective of the 4k price difference. If your friend had to ask the question, then clearly the 2300 is plenty bike for him, and that's not meant as an insult.

Generally speaking, the amount paid for a bike is reflective of a person's commitment/involvement in the sport. Presumably, they're looking for choices, options, or specifications not available in off the shelf bikes and you pay a premium for those aspects. Or more specifically, the profit margin is higher for high end bikes.

You clearly don't get a 200 percent return on your investment when you buy a 6k versus a 2k bike.

[dohearne]

Having just this year bought a Legend ST, I found this question thought provoking. Why did I buy a $6000 bike when a $2000 bike would have been a considerable upgrade from my Bianchi touring bike? My answer, to be honest, is the LBS. When I told him I wasn't good enough a rider for a Serotta, he said it worked the other way: "the bike inspires you to be a better rider". Right, I thought - nice sales pitch. And I am sure if the LBS carried Trek or Cannondale, I probably would have purchased one. However, the LBS is not a great salesman...he is a great cyclist and promoter of cycling...and I think up whatever excuse I can to go by his shop. He encourages me in my cycling and never makes me feel inept. So I bought a $6000 bike, because I believed in my LBS and I went to the Serotta open house. BUT...now that I can ride my Legend every day, the bike inspires me to get out...and I am becoming a better rider. So, buy the bike that will inspire you to ride and hopefully it will be from a person who gives you more for your $2000-6000 than a bike.

[ericmurphy]

...now that I can ride my Legend every day, the bike inspires me to get out...and I am becoming a better rider. So, buy the bike that will inspire you to ride and hopefully it will be from a person who gives you more for your $2000-6000 than a bike.

That's how I feel about it. For the last two years or so, I've been pretty good at getting in 4,500-5,000 miles a year. But there have been years before that where it's been pretty tough just to get out there and ride. That's been the primary motivator for me to go out and blow a year's savings on a high-end Serotta.

Since bicycling is the only serious exercize I actually enjoy, it's important that I get out there and ride regularly. I'm in my early 40s now, and I do not want to be hobbled over and hunchbacked by the time I'm seventy. The key to preventing such indignities, I believe, is to stay on the bike.

I could surely find a $2,500 Trek, or even a Klein, that would be more than adequate for my abilities as a cyclist. But I don't want just an "adequate" (or even really nice) bike. I want a bike that's going to seduce me out onto the road, even when the weather's iffy, or I have a bit of a cold, or just don't feel like it. I spend as much as ten hours a weekend on my bike, and I want to make sure those hours are as enjoyable as I can make them. Otherwise, I know myself well enough to realize how much more of a struggle it will be to get out there.

Does this sound like rationalizing to you? It does to me, but I think it's a valid rationale. I could spend $7,500 over the next ten years on trips to the local tavern. Or I could use the money to do something that's actually good for me.

Ten years from now, my liver will thank my Legend...

[shinomaster]

If you look around you can probably find a stock frame that fits... No, a colnago and a Lemond will not likely fit the same person well...but a cannondale may...or a specialized...

Lots of fitters are morons.. :fight:

[Dekonick]

A bike needs to be comfortable. If its $700 or $6000 if it is a poor fit it wont be an enticing ride. - Not only that but a $6000 bike will always be something you enjoy riding - years from when you buy it. That is NOT the case with a $750 bike. (The 6k bike may not maintain its 6k value, but it will still be a great ride after many many many miles)

I wish I could ride as much as many of you do - but with the time I do have, I enjoy my time on my Serotta. Believe it or not, but where I live most cyclists have no idea what or who Serotta is; if you arent on a Trek, LeMond, Giant, Klein, or C-dale, then your bike often goes un-noticed. The 'serious' cyclists know... but for me, its more about the ride than the name. (unless the name is also an indicator of quality!)

Ill save my pennies to get a Serotta any day!

I think we all agree that there is a definite quality to a Serotta type machine... quality, craftsmanship, support, even - dare I say it - love - that makes it sing to you as you ride. I find I will ride 'just a little farther' on my Serotta compared to my Bianchi.

I expect the ride to be as good on my new Serotta frame, and I am sure I will keep this new bike (and my old Colorado) as long as I can keep my wife from forcing me to 'clear' the stable... and when the stable gets cleared (ALWAYS against my will!) it will only be to make room for another Serotta. :beer:

[Ahneida Ride]

Absolutely ! I just returned from a magical 20 mile ride.

1.) My Legend fits.
2.) I ride in comfort.
3.) The bike is stable and decends and ascends well.
4.) Gearing is of my choice.
5.) Drivetrain is silent.
6.) Frame provides just the right kind of feeback.
7.) Excellent power transfer.
8.) The Bike is just plain fun.
9.) Outstanding LBS, providing professional service.
10.) Frame is manufactured to a higher QC standard.

I could go on ......

Every ride is better then the last.

Incidently, I made sacrifices and compromises in other area's of my life to afford a Serotta.

Now the 6-7 K pricetag. Well, can't one purchase a CIII with Centaur
for under 3K ?

:banana:

[Dr. Doofus]

1) When I wrote "99.999 %" I was referring to an earlier post that used this number...I and I think 75% is more real-world accurate.... There was this dumbass article on bike buying in an investment mag, which had a great pic of Dee Dee Barry in a tri-suit, and made the point that custom isn't needed because only three of Barry's eleven other teammates rode custom...well, last time I checked, three of twelve is still about 25%....

2) Many fitters rely on bull**** or on their own personal prejudices regarding position. The Doc has fit in the vacinty of about 70 folks on bikes over the years, and I and he decided to go with the "set everyone up by the averages, then tell them to go out and ride a lot and make changes to their position as their body saw fit"...in other words, everyone got the 30 degree elbow and knee bend, a neutral spine, and KOPS...and then they let a lot of riding and "body evolution" take care of the rest...the doc's view on this was that, for example, KOPS to 2-3cm back is the range, but the only way to find where you need to be is to ride a lot and let the position evolve...becuase the doc does not claim to have the psychic know-how to divine exactly what position someone "should" be in, down to the millimeter, and thinks that anyone who claims they do is full of ****...so the doc goes by the averages, with the pragmatic caveat that "your actual position may vary...ride more and find out"....

3) With 2) in mind, a production frame will work for most everyone, as a starting point...but sometimes you'll hit the gap between what's available and what works (like my choice of Coppi or noppi)...and for a racing bike, a few mm here or there of TT, or a few degrees of STA, can make a big difference in the fit and handling of a bike...take 5 different bikes with the same setup into a 1-2 Crit and you'll see...so the doc thinks that custom is a good move for a very experienced rider who knows what works for them...now, the doc does kind of laugh when he sees someone with a 6000.00 custom bike with more or less "stock" angles, the stem flipped to the sky, moving along under the 15mph barrier...call me an elitist prick, but you won't tell much difference at 14 mph between a 1500.00 bike and a 6000.00 bike if they have similar geos and tube shapes....


4) In the end, its geo, tube shapes, fit, and material...in that order....

[shinomaster]

it's true ...campy eurus wheels wont help you if you are riding along at 15mph...nor will a custom race bike.. I Guess if you are lucky..really lucky, a person may find a good fitter who can help them , and a good builder who can fabricate a great bike from that fit.. If you get both right you are more lucky than I was...maybe that would be worth the big bucks....hmmm...

Thats why I like my Caad 4, ha ha...

[Dr. Doofus]

Cannondale? Specialized? A plague on both your houses!

[shinomaster]

I have custom serotta too....

[jerk]

if the jerk hears one more stupid comment about fit the jerk is going to come and track all you down and induce you by force into the realm of professional road racing....YOU CAN GET ANY BIKE TO FIT. fit is where the stupid handlebars and the stupid saddle and the stupid pedals are in realtionship to each other. the fact that serotta and some other companies allow their "trained" shop geeks and customers to "design" bicycles around these three almost wholly irrelevant points is retarded. as the good doctor and the mouse in his pocket so eloquintly stated, (and the jerk paraphrases) he could push the saddle forward and use a 150 stem on a lemond. the bike would "fit" exactly the same as his bicycle now. the question is not does the bike fit but does it handle...the difference between a pegoretti and a giant is that the former handles better. naturally one's position will effect how a bicycle handles..it does not effect how a bike "fits". the fact that this bull**** smoke in mirrors permeates this industry is tragic and has resulted in people being sold the wrong bike and has resulted in great manufacturers with a dynasty of proven race bike design, making some of the most ill conceived horrible riding bikes ever. if you need your bars level with your saddle YOU SHOULD NOT BE RIDING A SEROTTA or any other bicycle with a legacy, a history and a wealth of knowledge drawn upon building racing bicycles. GO BUY SOMETHING FROM SOMEONE who is good as building bikes in that style. GET A MARIPOSA if you must. BUY A SINGER if you can....follow dbrk's example and buy bicycles from builders who specialize in building that kind of bike. the tubing, forks, and most importantly wealth of knowledge in the hands of the bike designers at serotta, colnago, pinarello, pegoretti were all built upon years and years of building racing bikes. they don't have the forks to build an audax bike. even if they did have the tubing you are wasting their time and their expertise. richard sachs is a great racing frame builder.. would you ask him to make you a lawn mower? please think before you ask eddy merckx to make you what is basically a touring/audax bike which is never going to be ridden in competition or at speeds even approaching it.
now the jerk knows that serotta among others have cultivated the the rich older client who has neither the flexibility nor the heart nor the lungs to ride in the position of a racer. so perhaps they are great at making this kind of bike. serotta is still "serotta competition bicycles". isn't rivendell better at building rivendells? bicycles based around the "french fit" can not have 43mm rakes, oversized tubing and tight front centers. the difference between a 2000 bike and a 6000 bike is worlds and worlds....especially of one wants a bicycle which meets any need beyond the generic.

jerk

[bostondrunk]

Jerk,

What tubing and angles would you recommend for my buddy who is 4'9", 230 pounds, wants a custom french fit bike, typically rides at 15mph, wants trispokes, and wants to be able to fit two custom carbon water bottle cages on the downtube?
I told him that a custom Pinarello Prince was the only answer, along with a Calfee carbon handlebar.

[csb]

while the jerk s out 'spooning' some dry gatorade...

may i suggest to your friend a set of trimble wheels,
they appear to hold up well to the stress of tea
biscuit runs.

[bostondrunk]

What about mad dashes for the KFC drive thru? He needs stability for the little bump you go over when pulling up to the order microphone..
I've already told him he has to go for the carbon cranks and seatpost.

[csb]

a set of nice round tuffy-puffy tires will
take the sting out of that unwanted riprap

[ericmurphy]

if the jerk hears one more stupid comment about fit the jerk is going to come and track all you down and induce you by force into the realm of professional road racing..jerk

Jeez, Jerk...leave us our delusions of glory, will ya? :-)

[weisan]

For Senor Jerk to break out of his normal "lowercase-only-rule", we must have made him really really mad. Either that, or Senor Jerk has discovered a keyboard that gives him the perfect "FIT" with the caps lock or the shift key right at his fingertips. :D

Let us chant together: "Jerk is ALWAYS right."

weisan

[gasman]

if the jerk hears one more stupid comment about fit the jerk is going to come and track all you down and induce you by force into the realm of professional road racing....YOU CAN GET ANY BIKE TO FIT. fit is where the stupid handlebars and the stupid saddle and the stupid pedals are in realtionship to each other. the fact that serotta and some other companies allow their "trained" shop geeks and customers to "design" bicycles around these three almost wholly irrelevant points is retarded. as the good doctor and the mouse in his pocket so eloquintly stated, (and the jerk paraphrases) he could push the saddle forward and use a 150 stem on a lemond. the bike would "fit" exactly the same as his bicycle now. the question is not does the bike fit but does it handle...the difference between a pegoretti and a giant is that the former handles better. naturally one's position will effect how a bicycle handles..it does not effect how a bike "fits". the fact that this bull**** smoke in mirrors permeates this industry is tragic and has resulted in people being sold the wrong bike and has resulted in great manufacturers with a dynasty of proven race bike design, making some of the most ill conceived horrible riding bikes ever. if you need your bars level with your saddle YOU SHOULD NOT BE RIDING A SEROTTA or any other bicycle with a legacy, a history and a wealth of knowledge drawn upon building racing bicycles. GO BUY SOMETHING FROM SOMEONE who is good as building bikes in that style. GET A MARIPOSA if you must. BUY A SINGER if you can....follow dbrk's example and buy bicycles from builders who specialize in building that kind of bike. the tubing, forks, and most importantly wealth of knowledge in the hands of the bike designers at serotta, colnago, pinarello, pegoretti were all built upon years and years of building racing bikes. they don't have the forks to build an audax bike. even if they did have the tubing you are wasting their time and their expertise. richard sachs is a great racing frame builder.. would you ask him to make you a lawn mower? please think before you ask eddy merckx to make you what is basically a touring/audax bike which is never going to be ridden in competition or at speeds even approaching it.
now the jerk knows that serotta among others have cultivated the the rich older client who has neither the flexibility nor the heart nor the lungs to ride in the position of a racer. so perhaps they are great at making this kind of bike. serotta is still "serotta competition bicycles". isn't rivendell better at building rivendells? bicycles based around the "french fit" can not have 43mm rakes, oversized tubing and tight front centers. the difference between a 2000 bike and a 6000 bike is worlds and worlds....especially of one wants a bicycle which meets any need beyond the generic.

jerk

Well said Jerk !!! :D

[shinomaster]

i love the jerk.... and why is it that his posts never incite riots yet mine do...I have caused so many mean words to be exchanged..hmmmm...

[oracle]

you just like to see the cream rise to the top, shino. or maybe it is the **** that floats better, i dont know...

oracle

[shinomaster]

say what!!!???

[oracle]

nevermind...

[shinomaster]

I get it now..ha ha ...

Hmmmm....PU

[dohearne]

YOU SHOULD NOT BE RIDING A SEROTTA or any other bicycle with a legacy... now the jerk knows that serotta among others have cultivated the the rich older client who has neither the flexibility nor the heart nor the lungs to ride in the position of a racer
jerk

Being older and at least well enough off to afford a Serrota without blinking, I will make a couple of comments to the Jerk.

1. Don't presume that the majority of us don't understand that "the fit" is a marketing tool as much as an effort to give people a bike that they will find comfort in riding.
2. I don't require yours or anyone else's permission to ride any type of bike I wish. I can put training wheels on my Legend if I desire...it's my money, my bike.
3. If the jerk wants to arrive in Vermont and compel me to ride like a racer, I hope he also is a miracle worker. I ride upright not because of lack of heart or lungs, but because I have 8 fused vertebrae from a cycling accident. But of course in the jerks world, there are racers on serious racing bikes and then everyone else.
4. I ride a "competition" Serotta but I don't compete with anyone but myself. Each and every year I challenge myself to be better at riding (or running) and the tools I choose to employ in that challenge are the ones that suit my needs...not anyone else's needs (or biases), including those like the jerk who seem to want to pass categorical judgement on those of us who are just passing by.

signed,
An upright, older, financially well-off, slower Serotta rider.

[Roy E. Munson]

I think that all of you people that get offended when someone posts something you don't like and then write to inform us so should probably get some thicker skin, or go somewhere else to hang out. It's an open internet forum where people share opinions, ideas, and thoughts in a variety of different manners. If they don't jibe with yours, then deal with it.

[dirtdigger88]

Ok why has no one stated the obvious. I wanted a ti bike, if you are going ti you might as well get a "good" ti bike versus lets say an Airborn. Not that there is anything wrong with an Airborn, they are just budget ti bikes. Now that I have decided I want ti (good ti) dont most of the companies offer "custom" in some form or fashion at this price level? So maybe I don't need a "custom" fit, but if it is included in the price why not? I think it utlimately comes down to what you want and can afford, if that is a Serotta, great- if it is not- no big deal, just get out and ride you you have and have fun. Come on people, we are talking about bicycles here folks

Jason

[Dr. Doofus]

Just shut up already, all of you...I and he rode 85+ solo while turning our shorts into a freaking outhouse...one of us is cooler than all of you...we can out-pee you, too.

[CarbonTi]

No worries there dohearne. That is just the j being his normal, inciteful self. There's enough variety in the cycling world that anybody can find any reason to tweak anyone elses tender sensibilities. All just sitting at the forum, shooting the breeze.

You like what you ride, that's all that matters.

[Sandy]

I am sorry that I am older.
I am sorry that I can afford a Serotta.
I am sorry that I am somewhat overweight.
I am sorry that I enjoyed myself so much yesterday on my Serotta riding with Spectrum Bob on a 50 mile ride.
I am sorry that I am improving at my age as a cyclist in all aspects of my cycling.
I am sorry that I continue to enjoy my passion of cycling on my overpriced Serotta.

Most of all, I hope that you all, at my age, are as sorry as I am sorry about riding my expensive sorry Serotta.


Sorry Serotta Sandy

[shinomaster]

Silly Sandy is sorry?? How Silly...For what are you sorry? :banana: :banana:


Super Serotta Sandy is Superb

[Roy E. Munson]

Sandy, glad you enjoyed your ride - that's the name of the game, afterall!
What bikes did you test ride before deciding to get the Serotta?

[jerk]

the jerk chides because he loves you all.

[jeffg]

I find all of this (besides feeding our need for polemics), misses a few things. Fit is more than contact points. It is also tube selection, geometry, etc. I can say nothing I have ridden handles better than my Serotta. I looked for a 55X57 stock frame with neutral angles, a BB drop of 7.5-8, and did not find one. I am neither heavy, nor old (well, I'm 30), nor wealthy. But I did save my pennies for a Legend (when they cost $2600), and I don't regret it one bit! Watch out Terrible Two!

:banana: :banana: :banana:

[Andreu]

Would some of the buyers of expensive frames be prepared to buy a much less expensive frame...respray and stick some Serotta labels on it? After all, what is coming across clearly is that some of the posters want pose value..and this would be a much more cost effective way of going about things. Or is it more to do with who can spend the most money...in which case Pinarello make a suitably priced frame at over $15000?
It is very interesting...there is clearly several groups of cyclists who post on the forum who are speaking a different language. Hairy-arsed racers, poseurs, and collecters etc. (its a bit like the 6 blind men in India who are trying to describe an elephant).
A

[jerk]

I find all of this (besides feeding our need for polemics), misses a few things. Fit is more than contact points. It is also tube selection, geometry, etc. I can say nothing I have ridden handles better than my Serotta. I looked for a 55X57 stock frame with neutral angles, a BB drop of 7.5-8, and did not find one. I am neither heavy, nor old (well, I'm 30), nor wealthy. But I did save my pennies for a Legend (when they cost $2600), and I don't regret it one bit! Watch out Terrible Two!

:banana: :banana: :banana:

that is a great sounding bicycle. it handles well because it was designed within the parameters of a proper racing geometry.....a geometry serotta understands in a way few other makers do....jerk (who is also not rich, also owns a few serottas and at least pretends to know what he is talking about.

[shinomaster]

Hey jeff g I'm 30 too and poor as a church mouse...

[bulliedawg]

Loves the jerk.

[ericmurphy]

Would some of the buyers of expensive frames be prepared to buy a much less expensive frame...respray and stick some Serotta labels on it?

Well, sure...that would work. But it misses the point. I freely admit (and have already done so, in numerous places here) that my Legend is very much a vanity project. There's no way in hell I can ride a Legend to its potential. I'd wager there are few outside of the pro peleton who can. But isn't there a certain amount of pride we should allow ourselves in owning something that is truly one of the best of its kind? Do we need to be aerobically-gifted natural athletes in order to be worthy of our bikes?

Despite my shortcomings as an athlete, I do want a bike that's reasonably light, that's comfortable on long rides, and that handles well. I routinely get up over 30 MPH on switchbacks in Marin, and I genuinely need a bike I can rely on to go where I point it.

I do not agree that I have to be a world-class athlete to justify owning a world-class bike. If it gives me pleasure, and if it makes me want to ride more, what in the world is wrong with that?

Buying a cheaper bike and slapping Serotta decals on it wouldn't work. I'd know it's not a Serotta, even if no one else did.

[Sandy]

I do not fit the "hairy-arsed racers, poseurs, and collectors" part of your quote, but I am one of the etc. I don't race and never will. I am not a poseur, and am certainly not a collector- 2 bikes.

Without coming up with any really derogatory comments, can you think of another possible category that excludes your choices? I know a lot of cyclists that ride Serottas and a few do have more than a couple of bikes, but that is not why they ride a Serotta. Do you know why they do????

Sandy

[va rider]

Who cares if some elitest biker says you don't need a Serotta.

Serotta's are race bikes, really? I just got back from the CSC invitational, no Serottas. 04 tdf, no Serottas. Serotta makes about 20-30 bikers for its' two pro teams (the real racers). Not, some weekend hacks who pay $20 for a USCF license and think they need some real expensive bike because they are racers. Puh-lease. They are no more racers than a weekend adult rec baseball player, softball player, or basketball player is a pro. If you are not currenlty a pro racer then you are just a rec rider, a hard charger, but still just a rec rider the same as the rest of us. You ride for fun, just as the rest of us do.

I've raced, I've watched alot of races and often see somebody on a cheaper bike win, or do well. Weekend end racers need high end bikes about as much as the rest of us do. They could equally do well on a cheaper Klein or Cannondale. And they certainly don't need to own more than 1 or 2 bikes.

You need to be a racer to buy Serotta? Yea, Lance Armstong called me and he needs my CIII and my buddy's Fierte. I would guess about 1 % of Serotta sales involves pros or paid racers. The rest is for us enthusiasts. Honda makes race cars, you certainly don't need to be a race car driver to drive a Honda.

And, talk about Serotta heritage, sure Ben built olympic bikes 20 years ago. And, before that, didn't he build bikes for Huffy?

So lighten up, have some fun and enjoy the ride.

[Sandy]

I guess what bothers me is that individuals who don't have the slightest idea about who you are and what you are about seem to possess the ability to categorize you as a cyclist and basically are not insightful enough to perhaps know that a very large proportion of Serotta cyclists probably ride a Serotta because:

1. They love the way a Serotta rides.
2. Serotta has a stellar reputation for production and customer service.

If you are not a racer type or a collector, that must make you a poseur, and that analysis is just stupid and insulting.

Sandy

[ericmurphy]

Okay. I'm a 42-year-old guy, six feet tall, 185 pounds. I ride about 4,000 miles a year. My average speed out here in the hills of the Bay Area is rarely above 15 MPH.

I usually spend my Saturday mornings riding with (or more accurately, starting out with) the guys from City Cycle in San Francisco. These guys are all much faster than I am; I'm always the last guy up the hills. But I like at least starting out with them, because sometimes I have good conversations in the half hour or so before they all leave me totally in the dust.

Does this mean I should be sentenced to riding, say, a Rivendell custom? (Not that I think there's anything wrong with Grant's bikes—they just don't appeal to me aesthetically.) Or, say, a Trek 1500?

I may be 42, and I may not be remotely fast enough to race, but I don't find the "poseur" fit uncomfortable on 80-mile rides. I spend probably 60% of the time on the hoods, and the remainder split pretty evenly between the flats and the drops. I believe that being in the drops with my hands six inches below my butt not only gives me better aerodynamics but also gives me a lower center of gravity which helps in the turns. Frankly, I have personal doubts about Mr. Peterson's insistence that your butt bear most of your weight (even if it is made to be sat upon). I've never returned from a long ride with aching forearms, but I frequently come home with an aching butt.

But I disagree with the notion that, just because I'm not fast enough to race, I'm somehow not "deserving" of a bike like a Serotta. I may not be very fast, but I still have the flexibility to ride with the bars 5 cm below the saddle. I think it's possible—even likely—that riding that way will keep me flexible into my seventies. And I still appreciate the Legend's ability to hold a line precisely, and to do exactly what I tell it to do when I'm leaning into a curve at 35 MPH.

Am I a poseur, because I ride a $7,500 bike that's way more capable than anything I need? It's not like the bike is sitting on display in my apartment and never ridden. Am I a poseur if I can't average 20 MPH out there, even if I spend 400 hours a year in the saddle?

I'm not riding a Serotta because people will think I'm cool (hell, 99% of the human race don't know the difference between a Serotta and an entry-level Specialized). I'm not riding one because I think it will make me go 5 MPH faster. I'm not riding one because I think it will make it easier to impress women.

I'm riding it because I love the way it feels to ride it.

I don't think it's fair to say that, just because I can't ride with the pros, I should feel stupid riding a high-end bike. How many guys are out there driving Ferraris who have ever been on a race track?

[Ginger]

Why oh why do we put racers up on a pedestal.
Yes, they ride bikes for a living. Yes they do what we do on an incredible level. To me, that makes them an expert on riding their bike. It makes them incredible physical specimens who have a particular talent for riding a bike.

It does not make them experts on maintenance, or on the engineering required to make a bike ride a certain way, or on what bike is best for what rider, after all...all they've done is raced bikes for other people. There's a whole world of bikes that doesn't encompass racing. We all benefit from their efforts as the R&D that happens in the race world trickles down to the consumer, but that is the parts corporation, not the racer.

Saying that someone who doesn't race bikes for a living shouldn't ride a race geometry bike, is the same as saying someone who doesn't drive race cars for a living shouldn't drive a raceable car. That's all well and good, but who the * are they going to sell the things to if they don't sell them to people who aren't in the "appropriate" category? If they don't sell some product outside the niche it belongs to, how are the companies going to continue producing bikes for those wonderful racer boys and girls?

(and yes, I could have just ditto'd VA Rider's post for the most part...)

[bostondrunk]

I love you jerk

[Andreu]

I do not fit the "hairy-arsed racers, poseurs, and collectors" part of your quote, but I am one of the etc. I don't race and never will. I am not a poseur, and am certainly not a collector- 2 bikes.

Without coming up with any really derogatory comments, can you think of another possible category that excludes your choices? I know a lot of cyclists that ride Serottas and a few do have more than a couple of bikes, but that is not why they ride a Serotta. Do you know why they do????

Sandy
Hairy-arsed racers, poseurs, and collecters etc.
The key was in the etc. This was not an exhaustive list...nor do I care who rides what or why (or how many bikes they have)...my point being... we all live on our own planets and we like to rationalise what we buy - I do find it curious when people talk about pose value (as that doesn´t fit with my set of values), and I don´t get "collecting" bikes - to me they should be ridden - but that´s me ......what anybody does is there own business. They are not breaking any laws or killing anyone.
I want something to race on, that will fit, (and not have a sloping top tube ;) ).
You enjoy it....do it!
Happy cycling
A
PS Serotta is on my list of bikes I would like to have. And I am still undecided - nor do I have the money (at the moment) to buy a Serotta or one of the others on the list.

[dbrk]

A guy goes away for a week and what happens? A five (and running) page thread that incites, inspires, cajoles, apologizes, chides, proclaims, admonishes, and invokes just about every sort of adjective and opinion.

Different bikes for different sorts of riding and, similiarly, different designs and fits are appropriate too. At stake is a bike that brings a big smile at the end of a great ride, we'd all agree to that? But to the original question about what you get for _the money_ (since that was the question...), well, I think you don't have to spend 6K to get a bike that rides like 6K and gives you all of that pleasure (ride, fit, durability, aesthetics, etc.). But you do have to be patient, look around and know precisely what you are looking for. Pay for that expertise? That's possible but I'm skeptical of nearly all fit advice I have ever received and taken. Lots of experts out there! I am happy others have had more satisfying experiences than myself, I might even say I envy them, but I'm not the envying sort, honest.

Back to cost/benefit/passion since I think these are three separate and nearly impossible to match issues. Allow me an example: I have three Singers from the famous redoubtable Alex Singer Cycles in Paris. Two are identical. These bikes have been around since the middle 1930s and built by the same shop (more precisely, the same three people plus a brazer) since that time. So what we have covered is experience, quality, purpose, all the things that make Serotta a great company. Let's assume we get a time-tested, beautiful-to-you, rides-swell bike. My used example was half as much as my "custom": it fits, rides, and is outfitted just as well as the others. The "used" has made no difference in ride or looks. My point: The cost of a bike is simply about what you can afford. The ride of the bike (design, fit, parts, style) makes us ask if we _like_ what we bought, not how much we paid. The cost to preference equation, I submit, is only about passion.
Bicycles (thank goodness) evoke passion once you get the other two things out of the way.

I have long said that I find certain Serottas outside my own preference of cost/value when I consider the money-for-the-particular-bike. That is, I would not spend that extra 2K or so for an Ottrott ST in comparison to other choices that are available and which evoke my passions. But those who do plunk down them Jacksons for Ottrotts seem largely (but not wholly, as we would of course know would be the case) ecstatic. Many of these same persons would not spend tons of money on a Singer or a Rivendell, but I would and have. So you gots to know what you like.
Bikes don't just ride well (or poorly), they make you feel things like happy, frustrated, or indifferent. If how you feel depends on how much money you spend then it might behoove you to think more about how you feel. (That's just my collegeprofessorial sort of obvious thing to say...) Some folks get a "superior" feeling for having spent less or more for something. I only want to get what I asked for and believe the money is pretty much not the issue (because when did money really buy you passion? Uhhh....maybe we should not go there...).

Just one comment on fit: it's not the fit that makes me get grumpy when I see "custom" bikes, it's the _fit solution_, that is, how the style of ride (the design for which the bike is made) and points of contact are reached. When you see stacks of spacers and riser stems exaggerated, etc., it is almost always the case that another solution could have produced the same fit but create a better overall aesthetic and even still meet the design goals of the bike and rider (rec riding fast, audax, cyclotouring, rouleur, age, fitness, injury, etc). But that _too_ is a personal matter (re: passion) regarding preferences and largely aesthetics once you get the bike to handle properly.

As for the rest of this, the jerk is right. Rather than "justify" a cost the much more challenging bit is knowing what you _really_ like!

dbrk
happy to be home, reports on riding in the Abruzzo region of Italy to follow...

[SBash]

Wow! Great to wake up in the morning and have my class on the psycology of cycling. dbrk you need to write a book on this! I could give a rats ass what anyone is riding, aslong as they're riding a bike. If someone wants to spend $6000 and average speed is only 5 mph, that's ok. Personally, i can take a good used quality steel frame, build it up with descent components, and be totally happy. So if you know what you want, you can afford it, and fits properly, thats what is most important. That's why to me the difference between $2000 and $6000 is $4000 but if someone wants to ride a $15000 bike, all the power to them. They are riding a bike and thats great!!!

SB

[csb]

and church mice dont pay taxes

[shinomaster]

this mouse paid plenty!

[va rider]

thanks Shino, your taxes help buy my CIII. It's a competition bike ya know...

[Climb01742]

we "deserve" what makes us happy. passing judgment and using judgment are not the same thing. there is a judgmental streak in this phorum that is in equal parts: annoying, funny and utterly meaningless. what any of us ride is no one's business but our own.

[Kevin]

I lack the skills to justify either my Ottrott ST or my CSi, but I love the rides of both. It is similiar to my wife and my daughters, I don't deserve such a wonderful family but I love them all. So my advice is don't over-analize the situation, just enjoy the ride and don't worry about what others think.

Kevin

[Dekonick]

HAHAHAHAHA! Interesting thing to say - that you are either a racer or a poseur

dbrk - your insight is brilliant. You could write a book (should?)

All those who ride a Serotta (or Seven or Sachs or whatever) because they love the feel and ride - ditto.

I suppose I am a poser in the view of some who post here - as I only ride an average of 100 miles a week - and I dont race - and I am slower than alot of you - (I average only 17-19 mph on my measly 25 mile rides, someties as bad as 16!)

wait... to be a poser dont I need to shave my legs?

Frankly I am offended that someone would post such an insutl... but then again it makes me think...why should I care?

I love to ride my bike.
I ride for my pleasure.
I dont do it for anyone but me. (well the wife too... to say healthy)
I usually ride alone.

and

I Love my Serotta...now plural! Serotta's!!!
woot!

Oh - I guess Ill never own a Ferarrai...after all I am not 'worthy'

BTW - is it poser (as in to pose...pretend...) or poseur (as in to ask questions...)

mmmmmmmmmm

To the racers - I admire your abilities, dedication, and love of the sport.