If...

[catulle]

Most of the specialized road bike shops in the US that I have visited, except for some exceptions that I'd rather forget, seem to be very enthusiastic about Independent Fabrication bicycles. I may ask about a titanium frame, or a nice custom, or about a specific brand, and most of the time I'm told: "How about IF? Have you heard of IF? They make great frames and offer fantastic service. They're a bunch of great guys."

However, IF is hardly ever mantioned here. I don't recall anyone ever proudly posting a picture of an IF. The difference between what I hear at the shops and what I hear somewhere else leads me to think that maybe dealers just make more money selling IF than other brands or something.

Would the congregation kindly discuss? Thank you so much.

[rwsaunders]

A friend of mine who is 6'-7", had an IF steel frame made for him, as his LBS told him that he was limited in framebuilder options because of his height. True or false, I don't know.

[catulle]

A friend of mine who is 6'-7", had an IF steel frame made for him, as his LBS told him that he was limited in framebuilder options because of his height. True or false, I don't know.

Right, that's my point. The guys at the stores seem to like (and offer) IF.

[AgilisMerlin]

http://forums.thepaceline.net/search.php?searchid=229375



used to own one myself. Silver IF Crown Jewel



amerliN

[Serpico]

a bit lengthy, but there's a good amount of details about IF's history/background at the link below:

http://antbikemike.com/about.html

[Big Dan]

I would ride a CJ anytime.

:)

[Hysbrian]

see a few pictures soon!

I am riding for their elite men's road team this summer and am going to be getting a new team lightweight 953 soon. I can't wait to give the bike a try, becasue as you pointed out I've only heard great things.

They are going to be nice!

[cs124]

it's a beatles vs stones thing

[Peter B]

I have an IF Ti Deluxe SS MTB (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=25338) and a steel Planet Cross. They are wonderful bikes. Superb construction and detail, both ride great. The SS was a stock size, while the PC was a custom, but built for someone else. Evidently he was my identical twin because it's a perfect fit. Now if only I can find the right deal a a Crown Jewel...

[DarrenCT]

I have 3 IF's (2 built up). Both ride like buttah

http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/736/crownjeweluk1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/9200/img1442ic5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/8973/img1599eu0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[DarrenCT]

I have an IF Ti Deluxe SS MTB (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=25338) and a steel Planet Cross. They are wonderful bikes. Superb construction and detail, both ride great. The SS was a stock size, while the PC was a custom, but built for someone else. Evidently he was my identical twin because it's a perfect fit. Now if only I can find the right deal a a Crown Jewel...

wanna buy that silver crown jewel i posted? its a 55tt/55st. it has a metallic purple color in the sun. its pretty sweet. i paid $1500 for it awhile ago and havent touched it.

[AgilisMerlin]

I have 3 IF's (2 built up). Both ride like buttah


Lucky Bastard :banana:



amerliN :D

[rnhood]

I have a friend who owns two and really likes them. It does seem that people that buy them often buy more than one. Must be a pretty good bike. They certainly look nice as evidenced by the pictures in this thread.

[J.Greene]

I had a steel crown jewel. I tried to like it for 4 years. I never could so I sold it.

JG

[Dave B]

I think for me, and I am only speaking for me, I found what I was looking for in a company after I had such a fall out with Moots.

Regardless of their high quality and fun designs, the company has such an unusual business plan. Each worker has an equal share in the company and their vocie from welder to painter to president, which is pretty unusual.

I have had the opportunity to meet and drink with their prez, Matty B. He is such a fan of his company, but goes out of his way to talk up others. When I met him I had a Fierte Ti, and he just got so excited to talk to me about what an amazing company Serotta was and what a fantastic man Ben was.

I have a steel deluxe http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=25540 and a Ti crown that I just got and will be posting soon.

I bought both used and made no apologies to "If" when I would ask questions about tubing and sizing specifics. Everyonce in awhile I get an email asking if I am enjoying the bike.

The made no money off of me, but still care to see if I am enjoying what they made.

Everyone I have ever personally met who owns one, has this similiar feeling towards them. I guess we have our own little stories as to why we dig them, but they just make great bikes and invite you to become part of the "Family"

For me, not many other companies have treated me like that.

[DarrenCT]

the president sent his own personal bike (an if xs) to an lbs near me for a few people to test out.

pretty cool company for sure.

[Grant McLean]

However, IF is hardly ever mantioned here. I don't recall anyone ever proudly posting a picture of an IF. The difference between what I hear at the shops and what I hear somewhere else leads me to think that maybe dealers just make more money selling IF than other brands or something.

Would the congregation kindly discuss? Thank you so much.

I think it's mostly a bike culture thing. IF sprang from the ashes of FAT CITY,
and really had the mtb mojo humming during the 90's. With the resurgence
of the road market, IF has got their share of market too, but i think their
demographic is younger, and has more tattoos (just a guess). The Serotta
customers represented on this forum seem to me to be much more romanced
by the long history of Serotta, and identify with the more European part of
cycling culture. That's just my impression...

g

[sbornia]

Here's a lame picture of my Ti Crown Jewel. After riding the Peg 8:30am for a couple of weeks, I really appreciate how comfy and smooth the IF is...

http://www.mightypenmarketing.com/ifticj.jpg

One of the reasons I bought the IF was a little nostalgia and brand loyalty...here's its great grandfather, Eddy, which I've had since 1990:

http://www.mightypenmarketing.com/yoeddy1.jpg

[obtuse]

Most of the specialized road bike shops in the US that I have visited, except for some exceptions that I'd rather forget, seem to be very enthusiastic about Independent Fabrication bicycles. I may ask about a titanium frame, or a nice custom, or about a specific brand, and most of the time I'm told: "How about IF? Have you heard of IF? They make great frames and offer fantastic service. They're a bunch of great guys."

However, IF is hardly ever mantioned here. I don't recall anyone ever proudly posting a picture of an IF. The difference between what I hear at the shops and what I hear somewhere else leads me to think that maybe dealers just make more money selling IF than other brands or something.

Would the congregation kindly discuss? Thank you so much.

cool shops like cool bikes. ifs are cool bikes. they are some of the nicest people in the business.

if's demographic is younger, more urban and "hipper", more alternative than that represesented here and more in line with the demographic typicall found amond bike shop employees...hence your experience.

most dealers make less money selling ifs than they do serottas or sevens or pinarellos or pegorettis but more money than they do selling colnagos....this usually only affects ownership's and management's views of bike lines, not the shop rats in the field.

obtuse

[obtuse]

I think it's mostly a bike culture thing. IF sprang from the ashes of FAT CITY,
and really had the mtb mojo humming during the 90's. With the resurgence
of the road market, IF has got their share of market too, but i think their
demographic is younger, and has more tattoos (just a guess). The Serotta
customers represented on this forum seem to me to be much more romanced
by the long history of Serotta, and identify with the more European part of
cycling culture. That's just my impression...

g


can't even think the shi'ite before you go and type it...man you're almost as quick as jmewkill.

obtuse

[LH2]

As with Serotta, Dealers make a killing on I.F. So it makes sense that they love to sell them.

The folks at I.F. are definitely bike people, and seem like they have done a good job of maintaining good customer service despite getting quite large.

Some of the coolest paint jobs (and colors) I've seen came from I.F.

[quattro]

Here is a picture of my IF Crown Jewel Ti frame. I had a very good experience dealing with Matt and Joe at IF, they were a pleaseure to deal with and when I run in to them on occassion they are more than happy to take the time to talk. My bike rides and handles exactly as I had hoped from the information I gave them for my build, not only that but it is the lightest Ti frame I have ever picked up, the complete bike weighs in at just over 16 lbs. with pretty regular components. Don't hesitate to pick up the phone and call IF and speak to Matt or Joe, they will answer all of your questions and be glad to listen, I consider myself a member of the IF family.

[Grant McLean]

can't even think the shi'ite before you go and type it...man you're almost as quick as jmewkill.

obtuse

are you my vanishing twin? scary.

g

[inGobwetrust]

Here's mine.

http://forums.thepaceline.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=7482&stc=1

[davids]

IF is on my short list for (I can't even believe I'm thinking this) my next road bike. One of the things I like about them, that hasn't yet been mentioned, is their wide-ranging line. You want a true touring bike? A track bike? How about an all-arounder? They do 'em all.

Personally, I daydream about the Factory Lightweight (as if I need another racing bike) and the Club Racer (with fenders, and the panel paint scheme)...

They're also a local company (for me) - I see them at all sorts of local *****, stuff like the Blue Hills Bike Days. They're the real deal as far as 'hip' bike culture - covered with tats, nice as can be. I'd love to do business with 'em.

...and a couple years back, Matt Bracken showed up for a "Ride with Ben Serotta" event at Wheelworks. Just for the pleasure of hanging with the Serotta folks. He brought his XS, one of the most spectacular bikes I've had the pleasure to see.

Seems to be they were a bit more fashionable a few years ago. But they're going strong, as far as I can tell.

http://www.ifbikes.com/images2/2006/factorylightweight-med.gif http://www.ifbikes.com/images2/2006/club-racer-med.gif

[bcm119]

Grant and obtuse nailed it, its a demographic thing.

One day I will have a yellow/orange Club Racer. Its been my dream bike for many years.

[Bradford]

I love my IF Independence and have written about it here many times. It is a great touring bike, and touring is the best thing you can do on a bike.

I also had a steel Crown Jewel I sold to LeftyFreak, a fine fellow from the forum. I loved to ride that bike and I only sold it after I bought my legend ST. The Legend is a better bike, but considering it cost twice as much, and considering that the Legend is Ti and the CJ was steel, they are really two different levels of bike, and that isn't saying anything bad about the CJ.

LeftyFreak and I took a tour of the factory and found the crew as nice as every one says. Cool bikes, super cool paint, and it is the kind of company you want to support. I think there is still a Club Racer in my future.

I have an IF, a Serotta, and a Co-Motion. Three great companies, three great bikes...life is good.

[dreadpiratetim]

Senor President - Sorry to hear about your experience with Moots... Obviously I don't know any of the details, but my personal experience with them was fantastic. I had them build - and help design - a totally one off custom based on some classic French geometry. They were totally into it, and this is after the personnel issues they had in 2004/2005. The bike I got is a work of art... the welds are flawless and the ride is fantastic.

I compare the Moots to my Seven, and there is no comparison... and the Seven is one of the early (ca. 1997) frames. The work on the Moots is just spectacular. Before the welding started we talked several times to make sure I was getting what I wanted. The total experience was awesome, especially since I didn't have two (or five) years to wait for the frame. The phone calls after delivery were just icing on the cake.

A good friend just got a Tournesol and it is every bit as brilliant. Maybe it's the water in Steamboat, but there are some good bikes coming out of there.

IF turned me off with the whole "discussion" about shot-peening Ti. No doubt their bikes are beautiful, and they build some amazing custom stuff (e.g., 29" SS MTB with Discs) that is nothing short of blatant bike porn. Add their paint jobs and you have some truly lust-worthy machines if you are comparing to other "large volume" custom shops like Serotta and Seven and Moots. (Not to take away from the artisan frame builder thread... I feel privileged just to read that!)

I don't post a lot here because the bike knowledge in this group is amazing. On this thread, however, I wanted to offer a counter-point since my experience was obviously very different from yours. Thanks for reading.

YMMV.

[Peter B]

wanna buy that silver crown jewel i posted? its a 55tt/55st. it has a metallic purple color in the sun. its pretty sweet. i paid $1500 for it awhile ago and havent touched it.


Thanks for the offer Tennisdarren!

[catulle]

Grant, Obtuse, all others, thank you as always for your most enlightening and insightful responses.

[Too Tall]

Grant said most of what was on my mind regards how and where they got their chops. C.Chance was drooling over tubes long before it was cool to talk about it. I've got some umberage over how they came into the biz but that's water under the bridge.

Your question was why is IF so often mentioned and I think that represents the depth of most shops knowledge for BeSpoke bikes with name recognition. Reckon you'd get a blank stare if you mentioned most of the bikes we kids drool over.

[stevep]

the indy boys know how to make a great bike.
long time associates lloyd, matty, joe, and the rest of the hoodlums.
i thk grants hypothesis is right on...pretty good for a campyphile.

to answer catulles question about whether shops make more $$$.

it gets to be where a shop gets familiar with a brand, gets familiar with a builders personnel, gets to understand very well what a particular builder does and does well... and at that point the dealer becomes an advocate for the brand...its not about margin.
some will focus on serotta, indy fab, seven, etc, fill in you own bike here.
some can work with several major brands, many shops dont get the sales volume to justify this especially in these big ticket sales.

[Climb01742]

matt b. is a great guy. i visited the factory once. matt's dog was sleeping next to his desk (a big plus in my book.) the factory is small, funky (in a good way), cluttered, all about substance. you can tell the folks at IF care. unfortunately, i was disappointed in my ti CJ. it was mushy. when accelerating, it seemed to absorb the energy. no snap at all. i liked the company; disliked the bike. as always, YMMV.

[Dave B]

Senor President - Sorry to hear about your experience with Moots... Obviously I don't know any of the details, but my personal experience with them was fantastic. I had them build - and help design - a totally one off custom based on some classic French geometry. They were totally into it, and this is after the personnel issues they had in 2004/2005. The bike I got is a work of art... the welds are flawless and the ride is fantastic.

I compare the Moots to my Seven, and there is no comparison... and the Seven is one of the early (ca. 1997) frames. The work on the Moots is just spectacular. Before the welding started we talked several times to make sure I was getting what I wanted. The total experience was awesome, especially since I didn't have two (or five) years to wait for the frame. The phone calls after delivery were just icing on the cake.

A good friend just got a Tournesol and it is every bit as brilliant. Maybe it's the water in Steamboat, but there are some good bikes coming out of there.

IF turned me off with the whole "discussion" about shot-peening Ti. No doubt their bikes are beautiful, and they build some amazing custom stuff (e.g., 29" SS MTB with Discs) that is nothing short of blatant bike porn. Add their paint jobs and you have some truly lust-worthy machines if you are comparing to other "large volume" custom shops like Serotta and Seven and Moots. (Not to take away from the artisan frame builder thread... I feel privileged just to read that!)

I don't post a lot here because the bike knowledge in this group is amazing. On this thread, however, I wanted to offer a counter-point since my experience was obviously very different from yours. Thanks for reading.

YMMV.




Oh ,I want to clarify as I am not in the practice of bashing good companies. Moots makes wonderful bikes, I have owned 2 (mountain) and their work/welds are top notch. They have been a round a long time and Kent (although moved on) really made a fantastic company. My experience was people not owning up to a mistake and taking credit for my work. I recently got a response from them as "Well it looks like we did use it. That person no longer works here so hope you find your passion for us again."

Moots bikes are awesome, I more then likely will own one again, but my point was the IF has gone above and beyond making a secondary customer feel welcomed.

[DonH]

I was measured and ordered my IF Deluxe from Berlin Bike in 2004. It is the best fitting,best handling mountain bike I have ever ridden. It makes me feel like a much better rider than I really am.
Prior to buying the IF I had ridden Fats and a Merlin for quite a few years. I was attracted to the IF because of the Fat City lineage, but more because I wanted a nice custom steel mountain bike. It just felt right for a lot of reasons.
This past summer I bought an IF Planet X cross bike to use for commuting and the 2 - 3 cross races I do every year. Its a super bike as well.

[Grant McLean]

I was measured and ordered my IF Deluxe from Berlin Bike in 2004. It is the best fitting,best handling mountain bike I have ever ridden. It makes me feel like a much better rider than I really am.

NICE thumbshifters!!


g

[davids]

As far as their 'young hipster' image: I know three people who ride IFs:

1. One of their early advocates, a super-strong mountain biker who buys bikes like I buy lattes. He's an architect/developer in his early 50s, and last I knew, he had at least three Deluxes.

2. A 40-something strawberry blonde who can leave me in the dust on a climb. She rides a yellow Steel Crown Jewel.

3. A lifelong rider in his late 50s. Every year, as I get to be a better rider, I think I'm going to be able to keep up with him. But he keeps getting faster, too. He claims to own a number of bikes, but in the four years I've ridden with him the only one I've ever seen him on is his first-year Ti Crown Jewel. He's already riding 200-mile weeks, and it's 10 degrees here in Boston this week...

[michael white]

IF: edgy, design-oriented, consistently near the front of a wave (ie the Club Racer). Good selling points for hip buyers.

[DonH]

NICE thumbshifters!!


g

Thanks, they are Suntour XC Pro thumbshifters, and work perfectly with my 8 speed XTR cassette and derailluers. The same shifters are also on my Wicked Fat and Merlin.

[Grant McLean]

Thanks, they are Suntour XC Pro thumbshifters, and work perfectly with my 8 speed XTR cassette and derailluers. The same shifters are also on my Wicked Fat and Merlin.

I have a set on my Ritchey p-23. I like to tell the 'kids' that they are black-box-
super-secret-2010-prototype-next-generation-i'dtellyoubuti'dhavetokillyou-
shifters. Most of the time, they believe me :)

g

[soulspinner]

I love my IF Independence and have written about it here many times. It is a great touring bike, and touring is the best thing you can do on a bike.

I also had a steel Crown Jewel I sold to LeftyFreak, a fine fellow from the forum. I loved to ride that bike and I only sold it after I bought my legend ST. The Legend is a better bike, but considering it cost twice as much, and considering that the Legend is Ti and the CJ was steel, they are really two different levels of bike, and that isn't saying anything bad about the CJ.

LeftyFreak and I took a tour of the factory and found the crew as nice as every one says. Cool bikes, super cool paint, and it is the kind of company you want to support. I think there is still a Club Racer in my future.

I have an IF, a Serotta, and a Co-Motion. Three great companies, three great bikes...life is good.

Dude, you have great taste in bikes. Im older at 51 but love the IFs Ive seen and they are in the mix for the next frame(953 or Factory Lightweight). IF seems to favor the 953 due to its having much better surface hardness
and I would like this one to be around in 5 years. The paint on the bikes I have seen is awesome. As my buddy who managed a shop for years and sold their bikes said just go and pay the money you wont regret it.

[fierte_poser]

When I got back into cycling at the beginning of 2006, my bike shop/fitter sold both serotta and if. No pushing either way. I ended up with a steel Fierte; I didn't need custom geometry and I saved around $900 over either a CDA or a Crown Jewel.

I would consider an IF as my next frame, but I really want a Kirk. Montana > Massachusetts. :D

[J.Greene]

Did IF have a legal issue a few years ago? I heard rumors but never saw it in print.

JG

[cpg]

Grant said most of what was on my mind regards how and where they got their chops. C.Chance was drooling over tubes long before it was cool to talk about it. I've got some umberage over how they came into the biz but that's water under the bridge.

Your question was why is IF so often mentioned and I think that represents the depth of most shops knowledge for BeSpoke bikes with name recognition. Reckon you'd get a blank stare if you mentioned most of the bikes we kids drool over.


Peter Weigle and Richard Sachs ushered Chris Chance into the biz while at Witcomb USA.


Curt

[old_school]

Peter Weigle and Richard Sachs ushered Chris Chance into the biz while at Witcomb USA.

I think that if one were to draw out the Whitcomb USA family tree, most would be shocked/amazed to see how far those branches extend!

[BoulderGeek]

Just a cursory glance shows an IF CrownJewel in steel with carbon stays being nearly $2700.

A Serotta CdA is only $1800.

Why would a CJ be worth $900 more, if both are custom?

[Too Tall]

Peter Weigle and Richard Sachs ushered Chris Chance into the biz while at Witcomb USA.


Curt

That's an "ah ha" factoid :) thanks. Can't tell you how well C.C. treated me in the 80's. I was not kind to his bikes and he kept saying things like "maaan, at least you are out there using my stuff..." . Good people.

[fierte_poser]

Just a cursory glance shows an IF CrownJewel in steel with carbon stays being nearly $2700.

A Serotta CdA is only $1800.

Why would a CJ be worth $900 more, if both are custom?

$2635 for the CJ includes a Reynolds Ouzo Pro carbon fork and a sterling head badge. Since the Reynolds fork goes for $350, that stering head badge must cost $$$ to make. :banana:

[SoCalSteve]

$2635 for the CJ includes a Reynolds Ouzo Pro carbon fork and a sterling head badge. Since the Reynolds fork goes for $350, that stering head badge must cost $$$ to make. :banana:

I believe they sell for $100.00 for the headbadge.

The older Reynolds fork has been discontinued and everyone was discounting them...The new ones (same fork, different decals) are around $300.00 retail.

[quattro]

Just a cursory glance shows an IF CrownJewel in steel with carbon stays being nearly $2700.

A Serotta CdA is only $1800.

Why would a CJ be worth $900 more, if both are custom?


Why oh why . Why does a custon Mevichi cost $$$$$$ and a custom Parlee cost $$$$? Why oh why?

Why would a Mevichi be worth more, if both were custom?

Just asking.

[DarrenCT]

Why oh why . Why does a custon Mevichi cost $$$$$$ and a custom Parlee cost $$$$? Why oh why?

Why would a Mevichi be worth more, if both were custom?

Just asking.

muhahahaha

[The Spider]

this thread substantiates an idea i've had for a while...

I'm the only bloke in the world who got a dud IF !

it's a steel deluxe and the disc brake tabs are so out of whack that I had to modify my disc brake calipers to get them to align. Just this week I had a mechanic bleed the discs and replace the pads, his words "what is up with those tabs?"

I sent the president multiple emails, showing the discs scraping the part off the fork...and no response.

The bike is yellow, i guess i should describe it as a bit of a lemon.

It rides well though! just don't talk about the brakes!

[soulspinner]

Maybe theyll still help you out, ya got nothin to lose. :cool:

[catulle]

The phone remains a better friend than Outlook, atmo. That is, if I had called Mr. Sachs seven years ago when I first learned about him and when I was looking for a bike to buy, I'd be riding red right now. If the e-mail I sent Steve Hampsten over six months ago inquiring about a Ti frame had reached him, I'd probably be riding a pig right now.

For all of the above, I respectfully suggest that you call him on the phone. If you do, I bet you'll do fine.

[AgilisMerlin]

this thread substantiates an idea i've had for a while...


it's a steel deluxe and the disc brake tabs are so out of whack that I had to modify my disc brake calipers to get them to align. Just this week I had a mechanic bleed the discs and replace the pads, his words "what is up with those tabs?"




front and rear tabs. rigid fork ? both !

Curious

amerliN

[bshell]

Hey Spider,

If it's genuinely not right (and it really sounds NOT RIGHT) call them and make them do right by you.

I like their bikes when done correctly but I've found quality control is NOT their strong suit. My local shop has had 5 frames/ 1 or 2 forks with problems(that I know of).....in '06/'07. Not sure what's going on at the factory. It took IF 6 tries to make my 2 frames.

They ride nicely and look great but unfortunately I don't think I could fully endorse the company to a potential buyer right now.

[LH2]

It took Serotta 2 frames to get my Legend right back in 2001, so nobody's perfect eh? ;)

[The Spider]

alright boys...I will try again (first time was 3 emails to Matt Braken over a 5 week period - don't want to nag).

I'll call on Tuesday at 4 in the morning!

appreciated

Spider