utterly stupid thread: handmade

[Fat Robert]

the thread about builders riding made me think of the worn out, stupid, total waste of bandwidth issues of big vs. small (relative to the handbuilt market), subcontracting, and this cult of bike frames that we all participate in.

you got your one-frame, one-guy operations (atmo, sacha, dave kirk, etc.). as atmo says, a dying breed. you got your big in-house operations (serotta, seven, IF). you got your one-guy (ok, maybe two guys), lots of ideas, subcontract with high-quality handbuilt constructors operations (hampsten, pacenti, etc.).

we all have different views, prejudices, and, as tristram would say, hobbyhorses.

discuss.


(don't ask me to think. its too late for that)

[atmo]

it's not about the bike -

it's about the bike maker atmo©™®

[Bill Bove]

I visited the Trek factory last summer and got to watch a Bontrager carbon handlebar being made. A very nice woman who I'm sure had a couple of kids and a husband back on the farm came to work on a weekend to do this demonsrtation. Despite this I wasn't moved to buy a Trek.

I want to buy a bike from a company, shop or guy who rode his bike this morning and as he took a tight corner was thinking "what can I do to this bike to make it do this better?"

[Fivethumbs]

Whoever says they still like quill stems is the one for me.

[Climb01742]

each way is just different. i can see tasty treats from all. gestalt matters, fer sure, but the ride, ultimately, matters most, IMO.

[Grant McLean]

I visited the Trek factory last summer and got to watch a Bontrager carbon handlebar being made. A very nice woman who I'm sure had a couple of kids and a husband back on the farm came to work on a weekend to do this demonsrtation. Despite this I wasn't moved to buy a Trek.


Have you been to Campagnolo?
I don't think it's any different.

http://www.campyonly.com/images/factory/2003/camp_factory2.jpg

g

[Steve Hampsten]

all i can say is:

what a wonderful world we live in

it wasn't like this back in 1999 when i started my "thing"

and without the interweb little of this would be possible

i'd still be working for the man and unhappy

[Grant McLean]

i'd still be working for the man and unhappy


got nambla?


g

[saab2000]

Trek is considered to be the Axis of Evil in the bike world because they are big and corporate. But I know that they started out relatively small and when I was younger in Wisconsin they were just the local bike company. In the 70s.

I know Dean Gore, who is occasionally quoted as doing this or that corporate thing there at Trek and with Discovery. He is a real rider. Or at least used to be. Same with some other guys I know who have close Trek connections.

They may not be perfect. But you at least don't have to wait 5 years to get a world class bike from them.

A Corvette Z06 is not a Ferrari in terms of "Gestalt" :no: but in real world terms it would take a serious, serious driver to tell the difference. Same with mass production world class bikes and some of the eye candy on display at the NAHMBS.

I applaud these builders. Some of them actually make bikes which would interest me. Some don't. But they all are craftsmen of the first order.

What's this all mean? I dunno. But I rode my Serotta today and loved it. What a bike!! Better than my Merckx and better than all the others too. Does it have the extra wizardry that comes from the "artisans"? I dunno. But it is a good ride. And that is what this is all about anyway.

So there.

[Jeff Weir]

If your happy, that's all that matters.

[FATBOY]

got nambla?


g
By that do you mean the North American Marlon Brando Look Alikes?

[regularguy412]

What's this all mean? I dunno. But I rode my Serotta today and loved it. What a bike!! Better than my Merckx and better than all the others too. Does it have the extra wizardry that comes from the "artisans"? I dunno. But it is a good ride. And that is what this is all about anyway.




I agree. Mebbe it's because I have only ridden 'worse' bikes. Can't wait to get my CSi back. It suits me just fine.

Mike in AR

[mjb266]

Having had the opportunity to attend the show, to listen to the seminars, to attend the dinner (I'm the guy with the nondescript handle) I am now convinced about atmo's point. It is about the builder. If I am a pro rider, the bike is a tool. I don't care about much other than the fact that it's going to let me win races. If I'm not a pro then the bike is more than a tool. It can be a means of staying fit, used to meet like minded people, a way to commute too and from a job. The builder can make you the bike that best fits your intended purpose and your dimensions.

That being said, a really good mechanic/sales person could get close to the same result for some people given all of the variables associated with components and fit.

Oddly enough, having spent time with the builders I now know that there are builders who would and wouldn't work for me as an individual. There are some that I would love to work with and others I'll pass on.

[mjb266]

Okay, if you ever wondered what the difference was? Watch the following, it's fascinating...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWJhW913Ykc
and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIxCdTRkRHo

Compare that to:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYs_i93tjGk&mode=related&search=

I know what I want to be a part of...

[manet]

If your happy, that's all that matters.

ya' but u gotta know it, other wise you should be walking on all fours.

[catulle]

it's not about the bike -

it's about the bike maker atmo©™®

Candid, succint, pregnant with meaning; denotes breeding.










(How long is his waiting list, atmo...?) :cool:

[atmo]

this is how it's done (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x81F28kPXuo) atmo -

[julia]

it wasn't like this back in 1999 when i started my "thing"

. . .walking around interbike at our first show, 2 skinny-tube frames with tiny graphics (0001 and 0002, match-built) in the ame/lew/calfee booth, getting blank looks from purveyors of fat-tube/aluminum/monster graphic taiwanese frames (not that there's anything wrong with that). . .we were total freaks

one was white & the other a strange lavendar-blue. luckily, dave dederer of the presidents took a shine to it. . .

[zank]

We should all ride to the point where we are too tired to type.

[manet]

. . .walking around interbike at our first show, 2 skinny-tube frames with tiny graphics (0001 and 0002, match-built) in the ame/lew/calfee booth, getting blank looks from purveyors of fat-tube/aluminum/monster graphic taiwanese frames (not that there's anything wrong with that). . .we were total freaks

one was white & the other a strange lavendar-blue. luckily, dave dederer of the presidents took a shine to it. . .


punk

[julia]

punk

http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s306/juliahensley/dave_dederer.jpg

[Jeff Weir]

.

[SoCalSteve]

each way is just different. i can see tasty treats from all. gestalt matters, fer sure, but the ride, ultimately, matters most, IMO.

The ride is the gestalt.

(you can quote me)

Steve

[RPS]

Okay, if you ever wondered what the difference was? Watch the following, it's fascinating...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWJhW913Ykc
and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIxCdTRkRHo

Compare that to:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYs_i93tjGk&mode=related&search=

I know what I want to be a part of...Care to elaborate? There is a lot of middle ground between a $100 bike and a $5,000 bike.

P.S. -- Interesting videos. They all seem to work equally hard – but with entirely different goals. I can't relate to either.

[Too Tall]

Utterly stupid??? Utterly not. I know I'm beating my drum again (boring) however it relates to your observation. All thru my life I've depended on folks who work small miracles for my special rather esoteric needs and that's what it is all about. Trust me, nobody got rich when I needed some custom rollers installed on my bassoon and there were only a few guys in the USA who could do it well. FATMO had some wacked geo bikes until someone for short money really took interest in making a bike for him that works. 'Nuff said? I think not. Why are they in business? PEOPLE. Everything is about people.

Be nice, brush your teeth and stay in school.

[Bill Bove]

Have you been to Campagnolo?
I don't think it's any different.

http://www.campyonly.com/images/factory/2003/camp_factory2.jpg

g

Grant, you are applying logic to a discussion on bicycles. Oil and water bro, oil and water.

[aLexis]

you got your one-frame, one-guy operations (atmo, sacha, dave kirk, etc.). as atmo says, a dying breed. you got your big in-house operations (serotta, seven, IF). you got your one-guy (ok, maybe two guys), lots of ideas, subcontract with high-quality handbuilt constructors operations (hampsten, pacenti, etc.).



I think Sacha has a couple of guys helping him now.

[old_school]

One man show, small company, middleman ... there is a place for everyone, I say.

I am just happy whenever I hear that someone is able to make a life doing something they enjoy. It isn't easy running a small business, and unless you have taken a stab at it yourself, you can't imagine the stress associated - on the individual and on the families. I wish them all well.

Hopefully this year's show brought a little cheer to all who attended. IMO, Don has done a good thing.

[Grant McLean]

Grant, you are applying logic to a discussion on bicycles. Oil and water bro, oil and water.

Yes, at lunch in Vicenza I had the Pasta with olive oil, pancetta, and prosciutto with what I believe was some grated Grand Padano on top, and some
San Pellegrino... :)

but in Wisconson, they just had grilled american cheese sandwichs on white bread and a coke :(

:)


g

[manet]

handmade chamois creme

[iml]

In our local spring worlds road race this weekend, I think there were 50 or 60 in the 1/2 field. Of those, two - that's right, two - were on steel bikes, as far as I could tell. One was a guy who builds his own frames, and the other was me, on my cool custom bike. There were a few on frames from Moots, Co-Motion (basically local), and some other not large shops, but the vast majority were on frames from the usual big brands.

Yeah, I like being on a bike from a small guy. And yeah, after trying some other stuff over the past couple years, I think my steel bike, made for me, is faster - for me - than most anything else I could be riding. It doesn't get much better than that for me, which I guess is the point.

Edit - here's that bike:

http://photos.oregonvelo.com/p/bb0704morningraces/img_5566mjb25

[mosca]

I finished reading Clapton's Guitar recently, and the author seemed to reach two conclusions that struck me as odd. One was that the quality of the instrument was primarily determined by the "state of mind" of the guy building it ("want to build a better guitar? become a better person", or words to that effect). The other was that most modern boutique guitar makers are striving to replicate the sound quality of the early Martin factory built guitars that are so sought-after today.

So I don't really know how to reconcile these two points of view, other than to say that an object can have "soul", or quality, imparted to it in a variety of ways - by a Ben Serotta, by a Richard Sachs, by a Steve Hampsten, or even by a nameless factory worker I suppose. Lots of different philosophies, lots of good bikes out there. That's what makes it fun!

[NickD]

the other a strange lavendar-blue.
My Match built "Julia blue" still gives me lots of :D .
Thanks Steve and Julia for a sweet ride. No need for another even though I drool at some of the eye candy