To Kahuana: A Polite Rejoinder

[dnovo]

Gary: Picking up on Richie's observation in the "My Two Cents" thread, perhaps some things need to be said now to facilitate moving ahead in a constructive fashion in 2004 and hopefully beyond:

I welcome the current structure of the Bike Fan Clubs and the possibilities they present, but your 'suggestion' that this forum be 'merged' into your groups is a bit disturbing and, I respectfully submit, a bit dismissive of the motives and efforts (and the simple kindness) of Ben Serotta and his company.

Several returning members have expressed some concerns regarding what they sense is a stilted or overly -constrained atmosphere of this ressurected group. Some have gone so far as to say, 'hey, I miss the trolling, it livened up the tone of the group.'

Ben put this group back together in a short time and at his own expense and 'gave' it to us. He has NEVER said nor suggested 'Serotta posts only' nor 'speak no ill of Serotta' as the price of continuing to support this group at his expense. All he asked was 'no more trolling and insults.'

Is that to much to ask? If some feel that the restriction on trolling and a bar on a battle of insults as part and parcel of this group makes the forum 'too dull', then there are many other places on the Net that will tickle your fancy without the need for us to return to where we were at the end of the old group.

To those who feel constrained to avoid non-Serotta posts or feel they are being pressured to only praise Serotta, I say that you may be viewing this forum in a false light. Go ahead and post away, I doubt if 'Big Ben' cares what you say as long as you don't insist on the 'right' to denigrate the other members of this group

But Gary, after Ben put this group back together with only one, benign restriction, for you to come on here and ask that this group be merged into yours to 'save' its future demeans Ben's efforts and ignores why we ended up here in the first place.

Tolerating the most outrageous trolling, and then creating a BASEMENT to memorialize the most offensive posts did nothing to help the situation, and simply poured gas on the flames when the trolls would boast of setting 'records' for being cosigned to the 'pit.' Have you taken steps to prevent this at your new groups, or do you even admit that it is a problem? If not, won't history repeat itself?

And as for the 'join or we will perish' theory, there are a lot of other forums out there, Tech Talk, CR, BOB-list. Are those also a 'threat?' Are you going to ask them to close too?

I am honestly puzzled by what you are seeking. I do not view our present (and apparently healthy) format to be as limited as some have suggested, and politely differ with you. Demanding that 350+ members suddenly abandon this group and join yours makes little sense to me.

I am not as troubled as you seem to be by our group maintaining a distinct identity with the mnimal restrictions on simple decorum we have been asked to follow by Ben. Saying, "okay, now that all 350+ of you are up and going strong, shut down and come with me and join under our Big Tent" because not doing so will be bad for you makes me a bit nervous.

Thank you, but I like this heslthy and congenial group, and don't see shutting it down or changing its format now, while we still are regaining our original membership and adding more as a benefit for us as a community as contrasted to your desire to help your own venture suddenly increase its membership but potentially dilute the distinct character of this 'family.'

Sorry, but that is the way I view your request to this group and how I feel it reflects on Ben's laudable efforts over the past few weeks.
Dave N.

[Climb01742]

1. i personally like being part of a distinct serotta "family".

2. i hope we can create a "polite passion". as i said in another post, create some heat without fire or flames.

3. thank ben for restarting this forum.

4. miss the old tree thread structure. i liked being able to respond to a particular post, and being able to see how a thread grew and jump in where it looked fun.

5. thank kahuna for all his efforts.

6. wish i could dance like mr/ms banana.

[lithiapark]

Being kind of tired this AM, and also believing I couldn't add significantly to what is stated above, I would like to second these comments. Except for the dancing banana part.

[dnovo]

Thank you, Thank you, Thank you. Death to Dancing Bananas! Dave N. (see, you CAN post freely -- or those *&%$# Dancing Bananas would be history!)

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . with your polite disagreement, Dave. The factors at work here should be rather obvious:

--Kahuna wants an infusion of new traffic to help get his new BFC site off the ground. The membership of the Serotta forum and his relationship with Ben make this a reasonable suggestion for him. Understandable.

--You want someplace to go where there is as close to zero chance as possible of a troll harassing you as happened before. Understandable.

--Ben and company want a forum that retains the sense of community from the old forum, while supplying new civility and accountability inherent in moderation, registration, and strong terms of service. Understandable.

I see nothing inappropriate about Kahuna floating a trial balloon over this forum to gauge interest. Some of us have waved welcome. Others have taken potshots at it.

For my part, here is what I would like to see that would make it easier for me as an interested cycling user who wants to find the most varied, entertaining, and educational content in one place:

--The same terms of registration and strong TOS on the BFC site as is present here on the Serotta site.

--A link from the Serotta company web site that takes me directly to the Serotta forum on BFC, but with the other forums available with an onscreen link. Hopefully this would solve any dealer-related problems, since anyone going from Serotta.com would go straight to the Serotta forum, though that forum would be part of the larger BFC.

--Continuation of moderation of the Serotta forum on BFC by Todd and Alyson, which addresses any problems with brand bashing from interlopers.

--Cross-forum searchability on BFC--including the image galleries--to maximize it utility to me as an archive of general cycling knowledge.

The software engine on both Serotta and BFC appears to be the same, judging from the screen appearance. As I understand it, even if a troll DOES gain entrance with a ficticious registration, he will not get off more than one public shot before being blasted off the forum--and repeated entries under different names will only give the moderators more clues to trace him down and initiate legal action.

Meanwhile, the current forum software gives you the option to block e-mails and personal messages AND display of your e-mail address on the forum, which means noone can contact you privately unless YOU want them to. I can think of no better way to provide the safety that dnovo desires.

I think Kahuna has a good idea and has learned through the past few weeks the importance of stronger safeguards for members privacy. I feel confident that if suxch a merger happened it would work well for everyone.

If that is the case, then I am sure Ben, Todd, and Alyson will see it and good things will happen. But in any event, dredging up issues that have been examined, re-examined, and RE-re-examined vis-a-vis the shortcomings of the old forum is unproductive.

Lets. Move. On.

BBDave

[dnovo]

Dave: Nobody is 'dredging up' old issues, Gary is the only one who seems to feel that the continued existence of this group is somehow less than desirable. I hear what you are saying, but it would seem that what you feel is a benefit to doing as he asks simply adds a layer of complication to the whole affair.

Ben et al have been rather silent about Gary's proposal, and I do not speak for him, do not wish to imply that I do, nor have I or will I ask for him to chime in here. But consider this, Dave and the other members:

If Ben and Serotta really wanted to do as Gary asked in his request on this group, then that request would never have been posted. Ben and Gary would simply have worked out the transition and we would have found ourselves back in the proposed new format Gary is now hawking as 'necessary' for us very seamlessly.

No, the fact that it did not happen nor is it about to is evident from Gary's post. If Serotta was interested in Gary's proposal, then he would not have had to come on here and tried to drum up support and get us to urge Ben to buy into it.

Dave, I am sorry. The more I look at this, it appears that what Gary suggests would cause us to give up our distinct personality just for a little bit of convenience that is more theory than practice.

Bottom line: Why is Gary so insistent that we must 'come back into the fold?' Where is the disadvantage to staying here? Nobody is censoring us nor are they likely to. On the otherhand, if we do as Gary asks, and for ANY reason it doesn't work out, are we going to ask Ben to belly up to the bar again and provide us with a home once again?

Sorry -- it ain't broke, and despite Gary's attempt to paint us as being in a bus with faulty brakes, I don't see that Mercedes van out there we are being asked to get into and abandon our current ride. Nope, it looks like we are being asked to buy him the car to drive for us. No thank you. Dave N.

[BumbleBeeDave]

. . . and that's all I'm going to do. I see wisdom in both sides of this issue, but opinions have been aired, those who need to see them will see them, and something will happen or not.

In the meantime . . .

We. Should. Move. On.

BBD

[dnovo]

I agree. The weather may actually be decent here for the next few days. To quote one of our members, "ride on."

Best Wishes to the B-Man and the other members of the group for the Holiday Season. Dave N.

[Climb01742]

we've all seen how fragile the existence of a forum can be. therefore, the more the merrier, i say. let all forums thrive, and each person can choose. more places to go seems nicer than fewer.

[Bill Bove]

I am happy with the new forum:banana: I could go either way but since it has Ben's name on it I'll go with him. Besides, we didn't have the wondorous, magical, banana back at the old farm!:bike:

[JohnS]

I think BBD has it pretty well pegged. That's my opinion (and I know what that's worth around here;)

[Indy Fab]

Kahuna,

Your opinion is always appreciated, but I happen to not agree with it. It seems to me -- unless there's something I'm not understanding about your suggestion -- that folding this forum into a larger one will dilute the "Serotta-ness" of it. How does it further the interests of Serotta to increase usage among people who have no interest in Serottas. There are already plenty of general bike forums out there, and they get lots of traffic. I started coming to this forum because I wanted to learn something about Serotta and the people who ride them. That's hard to do on a board where discussion of Serotta is not the primary focus.

Secondly, I'm curious why you didn't take your suggestion directly to Ben instead of delivering it to the world. I don't mean to project my own neuroses onto this discussion, but if I were Ben, I'd be a little suspicious that you were trying to manipulate me into complying with your personal wishes by creating a groundswell of support for the idea behind my back. Why not build an intelligent case to support your idea, then present it to Ben so that he can understand the benefits to Serotta?

[Dick Little]

I could never understand why Serrota would officially endorse this forum in the first place, let alone link to it on their corporate site.

[gt6267a]

personally, i am with dnovo here. there is a community here that i value.

there is no apparent need to move the forum for its own benefit. it appears that the benefit of moving this community elsewhere is for an outside source and not the community itself.

[keno]

though not as much as I liked the predecessor "here", but I'll take it. I like that it is the Serotta forum. I can't imagine the before and after fun of the Open House thriving in a more general atmosphere. I doubt that I would have become friends with flydhest, The Doctor, Smiley (and the First Mate), Sandy, Kevan, Whateverhisnameistoday Bob, Spoke, Pete and others, people I've ridden with, enjoyed the hospitality of, and broken bread with, and some wind, too, but that wasn't me. And I feel a sense of obligation to Ben, as I, among others, made a personal request to him to reopen the forum and he did. Was he responding to keno? I believe in some small part he was, as he was responding to us all who let him know how much we cared. He did his part and I feel indebted to him and am not about to make him feel any less than the mensch (a stand up guy, in Yiddish) he is.

For me, this has become more a matter of the heart than of the mind, what little left there is.

I am leaving for Costa Rica tomorrow. I hope and fully expect to return in early January to enjoy for the longest time the Serotta Forum.

keno

[dnovo]

And a Hamisha Mensch too. Dave N.

[Kevin]

I am very happy with what Ben has done with this site. I do not see any reason to fracture our community by dividing it among two sites.

Kevin

[gwk]

I agree....Keep the Serotta community separate!! Merry Christmas everybody! :) George