47 months

[dash]

you gotta love vanilla cycles.

no matter what kind of riding you do there is a vanilla cycle for you.

for me, i cannot get enough of this one:
http://flickr.com/photos/cyclofiend/411577726/
http://flickr.com/photos/mnorri/411127650/
http://flickr.com/photos/bike/409514788/
http://flickr.com/photos/bikeportland/409168234/
http://flickr.com/photos/bikeportland/409168216/
http://flickr.com/photos/bikeportland/409168159/
http://flickr.com/photos/bikeportland/409168116/
http://flickr.com/photos/bikeportland/409168020/
http://flickr.com/photos/bikeportland/409168003/
http://flickr.com/photos/bikeportland/409167981/

but 47 months? :confused: :confused: :confused:
how do you even know you'll be alive in 47 months? :rolleyes:

seriously, how can you plan for such a purchase so far in advance?

[Too Tall]

Be the tubeset.

[Ginger]

There is a difference I suppose.

Between waiting 47 months for a frame and having a 5 year loan on a car.

But people do the latter all the time and don't complain. How do you know you'll be there after 47 months to continue paying on that loan?

[jckid]

I just don't think I could order a frame that I had to wait that long for. My priorities could change a lot in four years. They are beautiful frames, but there are so many other great builders that could fill an order much quicker.

[michael white]

Yeah, there are bikes so pretty it's difficult to even respond. Owning that bike would be a little like dating a supermodel. You'd have to have good self-esteem, for sure.

It's a long time. I don't know if I'm young enough to wait that long.

[72gmc]

Deposit now, and:
a. Tell your SO that you've "delayed" your next bike for a few years so you can better focus on her or him
b. Make lists of components, racks, etc and then whittle them down to your "one bike" choices, and then do it again only slightly different, and then again
c. If you're a latest/greatest geek, root for the CamShimRAM collective to perfect solar-powered auto-shifting in the next 4 years
d. Run 46 months of forum polls about which color you should choose
e. Know that there is at least one thing about 2011 that won't suck

[AgilisMerlin]

1 frame a month - 47 people in front of you
2 frames a month - 94 people in front of you
3 frames a month - 141 people in front of you
4 frames a month - 188 people in front of you
5 frames a month - 235 people in front of you
6 frames a month - 282 people in front of you
7 frames a month - 329 people in front of you
8 frames a month - 376 people in front of you
9 frames a month - 423 people in front of you
10 frames a month - 470 people in front of you


how many frames a month do we think they produce.

Is it worth the wait ?


amerliN

[manet]

time'sup

[dave thompson]

you gotta love vanilla cycles.

no matter what kind of riding you do there is a vanilla cycle for you.

for me, i cannot get enough of this one:
http://flickr.com/photos/cyclofiend/411577726/
http://flickr.com/photos/mnorri/411127650/
http://flickr.com/photos/bike/409514788/
http://flickr.com/photos/bikeportland/409168234/
http://flickr.com/photos/bikeportland/409168216/
http://flickr.com/photos/bikeportland/409168159/
http://flickr.com/photos/bikeportland/409168116/
http://flickr.com/photos/bikeportland/409168020/
http://flickr.com/photos/bikeportland/409168003/
http://flickr.com/photos/bikeportland/409167981/

but 47 months? :confused: :confused: :confused:
how do you even know you'll be alive in 47 months? :rolleyes:

seriously, how can you plan for such a purchase so far in advance?
At the NAHBS dinner I was sitting next to E-Richie when someone asked him what his wait was. He held up his hand with all 5 digits showing. :crap:

[Erik.Lazdins]

At the NAHBS dinner I was sitting next to E-Richie when someone asked him what his wait was. He held up his hand with all digits showing. :crap:

How many fingers does Richie have on each hand? :D

[Grant McLean]

Just some random thoughts on the subject....

When does the wait time trump all marketing? If there's no wait, is that bad?

So when does it become a snobbish badge of honor that you waited
for the 'unattainable' builder to call your number? A decade?

Does is show great taste to already own a bike from someone who only a handful
of people will be getting one in the near (far?) future?

Couldn't Sacha hire a few people??

Why are these guys wasting time a show selling more frames, shouldn't they
be building?

Does this remind anyone a little of the dot.com bubble?

If Trek built 10 frames a month, how long would their list be?

g

[stevep]

At the NAHBS dinner I was sitting next to E-Richie when someone asked him what his wait was. He held up his hand with all 5 digits showing. :crap:

5 weeks?
thats not bad.

[Grant McLean]

you gotta love vanilla cycles.

no matter what kind of riding you do there is a vanilla cycle for you.

for me, i cannot get enough of this one:
http://flickr.com/photos/cyclofiend/411577726/



The crazy thing about that Vanilla, is that it's only one of FIVE bikes
he had built.... there's a story in the VeloNews buyers guide about
the owner, who also commissioned a Pegoretti, Sachs, Ron Cooper & a
Llewellyn! named Brett Horton, who owns an incredible collection of Tour
de France memoribilia, and a collection that boggles the mind.

http://www.thehortoncollection.com/

g

[Moosedryvr]

I was considering having Sasha make me a frame to celebrate my pending (2 years away) retirement from the Air Force. At Christmastime the wait was right at around 2 years, so I thought I'd give it a few more weeks so that the delivery would coincide with my retirement date. When I checked back in late Jan, the wait had moved up to around three years, now its four. I love Sasha (got a chance to ride with him last year at RAGBRAI) and his bikes, but it looks like this train has passed me by. Maybe I'll get a Kirk or a Tournesol instead (not that either would be settling for less).

Shawn G

[manet]

...

If Trek built 10 frames a month, how long would their list be?

g

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e61/easterncaster/286834-robin-williams.jpg

[Grant McLean]

I was considering having Sasha make me a frame to celebrate my pending (2 years away) retirement from the Air Force. At Christmastime the wait was right at around 2 years, so I thought I'd give it a few more weeks so that the delivery would coincide with my retirement date. When I checked back in late Jan, the wait had moved up to around three years, now its four. I love Sasha (got a chance to ride with him last year at RAGBRAI) and his bikes, but it looks like this train has passed me by. Maybe I'll get a Kirk or a Tournesol instead (not that either would be settling for less).

Shawn G

I gotta think this will change. Sacha is one of the youngest builders working,
and he must be thinking how he can structure his business to have more
output. What if Serotta or Independent were still 1 man shops? Sumptin'
gotta give.

g

[Steve Hampsten]

I gotta think this will change. Sacha is one of the youngest builders working,
and he must be thinking how he can structure his business to have more
output. What if Serotta or Independent were still 1 man shops? Sumptin'
gotta give.

g

I think a point is being missed here: Sacha can only build as fast as he can build. If he hires help (or more help), that's something different, and it may very well be something he has no interest in doing.

What's wrong with a one-or-two man shop building great bikes at a pace that they find comfortable? And with going to bike shows and having fun?

Somehow in all of this my guess is that Sacha (and Richard, and Curt, and Peter, and a few others) aren't building simply in order to eat and meet the whims of their customers. They're doing what they do for love and more bikes will not equal more love.

The other issue is that very few people in this world are capable of producing this type of work. Hiring more warm bodies will not produce more beautiful bikes and the learning curve for employees in this business is very gradual. Were I in Sacha's shoes I wouldn't change a thing.

You guys already have plenty of bikes to ride and in five years you'll have one more.

YMMV

[Ginger]

Why is anyone complaining about the wait for a frame from these artisans?

I have a solution for all of you.

Put your deposit down on four bike builder's lists:
One with a four or five year wait, one with a three year wait, one with a two year wait, and one who is just starting out. Keep in mind that each builder's price will go up as the years go on and budget accordingly.
Each builder will be building you the bike of that moment when you go for your fitting, not the moment at which you ordered. That way you have somewhat instant gratification and still get those bikes that you lust after.

Each year you'll be getting a new bike as your taste evolves, and you'll be supporting artisans who's work you admire.

Just call me idea girl,
Ginger
(and if anyone wants to fund this project for me, drop me a PM! I need a life-bike sponsor...)

[Grant McLean]

I think a point is being missed here: Sacha can only build as fast as he can build. If he hires help (or more help), that's something different, and it may very well be something he has no interest in doing.

What's wrong with a one-or-two man shop building great bikes at a pace that they find comfortable? And with going to bike shows and having fun?

Somehow in all of this my guess is that Sacha (and Richard, and Curt, and Peter, and a few others) aren't building simply in order to eat and meet the whims of their customers. They're doing what they do for love and more bikes will not equal more love.

The other issue is that very few people in this world are capable of producing this type of work. Hiring more warm bodies will not produce more beautiful bikes and the learning curve for employees in this business is very gradual. Were I in Sacha's shoes I wouldn't change a thing.

You guys already have plenty of bikes to ride and in five years you'll have one more.

YMMV

So how many orders book him into retirement? He's under 30, so i think
by next year, he'll be most of the way there. :) I hear what you're saying
but doesn't every business go through these same things? Maybe Bill Gates
can go back to writing softwear code, and layoff a few million employees?

g

[Grant McLean]

Why is anyone complaining about the wait for a frame from these artisans?

I have a solution for all of you.

Put your deposit down on four bike builder's lists:
One with a four or five year wait, one with a three year wait, one with a two year wait, and one who is just starting out. Keep in mind that each builder's price will go up as the years go on and budget accordingly.
Each builder will be building you the bike of that moment when you go for your fitting, not the moment at which you ordered. That way you have somewhat instant gratification and still get those bikes that you lust after.

Each year you'll be getting a new bike as your taste evolves, and you'll be supporting artisans who's work you admire.

Just call me idea girl,
Ginger
(and if anyone wants to fund this project for me, drop me a PM! I need a life-bike sponsor...)

ginga,

I'd write a response to you, but i've got a few other pieces of writing on the
go, so i'll get back to you in about 5 years.... :)


g

[Jack Brunk]

When I got in line last year the wait was 16 months. My turn comes up in July. Man I am stoked!

PS My spot is not available at this time.
PSS Unless the price is right.

Does Sasha do carbon?

[KJMUNC]

I gotta think this will change. Sacha is one of the youngest builders working,
and he must be thinking how he can structure his business to have more
output. What if Serotta or Independent were still 1 man shops? Sumptin'
gotta give.

g

So what's the goal of these "one-bike-per month" builders? Is it pure exclusivity? Is it to exemplify the finest spirit of craftsmanship? Surely there's a better balance between Trek's "buy all you want we'll make more" heartless capitalism and 47mo wait-times for a bike.

Are they trying to re-create the Confente scenario, whereby they think exclusivity and craftsmanship automatically create a classic? I gotta believe there's a better way, because eventually the pendulum is going to swing back and then the train has passed them by instead of vice versa.

[big shanty]

I think it's safe to say that Sacha does not aspire to be the next I.F.

[atmo]

So what's the goal of these "one-bike-per month" builders? Is it pure exclusivity? Is it to exemplify the finest spirit of craftsmanship? Surely there's a better balance between Trek's "buy all you want we'll make more" heartless capitalism and 47mo wait-times for a bike.

Are they trying to re-create the Confente scenario, whereby they think exclusivity and craftsmanship automatically create a classic? I gotta believe there's a better way, because eventually the pendulum is going to swing back and then the train has passed them by instead of vice versa.


who are these one-bike-a-month cats? i happen to know that sasha is
way more productive that that? myself - i'm generally at 5-7 a month.
the confente reference is completely wrong. i'd wager in his short stint
working his eponymous firm, he did at least 12-15 a month. heck, back
in those early years i was a 4 frame a week guy, and that number slowed
down by the mid-late 80s when i began to realize how much longer it
was taking to build once the improvements in design and manufacture
were (more) known and hence incorporated into the gig atmo. the learning
curve doesn't always breed efficiency; when you finally find out what you
didn't know and bring it to all frames thereafter, it adds time to the build.
if it didn't, we all might be making the same thing we did when we started.

[Steve Hampsten]

[QUOTE=KJMUNC]So what's the goal of these "one-bike-per month" builders? QUOTE]

Maybe a happy, sustainable lifestyle?

[big shanty]

Grant,

Are you implying that if you didn't have a Richard Sachs already, that you would be foolish to wait 5 years for one?

Noah

[michael white]

No, look, you folks who want Sacha or atmo to hire help to speed things up, that's just not right. It has to be the way it is. They have to charge what they have to charge. Market can't drive it. Deep in your hearts, you know that.

[Grant McLean]

Grant,

Are you implying that if you didn't have a Richard Sachs already, that you would be foolish to wait 5 years for one?

Noah

Not really. I don't know what to think.
When i think about 5 years... wow, that's forever.
I REALLY REALLY wanted a Vanilla single speed,
so i guess mostly, i'm pissed that i didn't order
one last summer at the 2 year mark.

Five years is a long time isn't it?
I think about the future in riding seasons, so 5 years,
that's not this season, next season, the season after
that, or the season after that, or the season after that.
Basso will have won the Tour 5 times when Sachs gets
to my order!

It just seems really odd, this
massive backlog thing. If the orders are coming
in faster than they are going out, then something
seems out of balance. I'm sure someone who
knows more about business than me will tell us
something about market price and supply and
demand...

Sacha strikes me as truely one of the most creative
and talented guys I've ever seen in 25+ years of da biz.
He deserves to get to do whatever he thinks he wants
to do, and hopefully that gets him to his happy place.

It just seems to me that making people wait so far into
the future for a frame that you can't even imagine what
it will be like when it arrives.

Geeze, i'll be so old, i'll have to order one smaller,
since i'm sure i'll be a shrunken old man when i get it!

g

[Johny]

Grant,

Are you implying that if you didn't have a Richard Sachs already, that you would be foolish to wait 5 years for one?

Noah

No, he is implying that if all of us had a life, we would not be wasting time on this forum. :rolleyes:

[Steelhead]

At the NAHBS dinner I was sitting next to E-Richie when someone asked him what his wait was. He held up his hand with all 5 digits showing. :crap:


Months? Years? Hours?? ;)

[AgilisMerlin]

this thread:

Reading it reminds me of a game: like listening to a set of rules. i either choose to play (patience), or shut the box.

Collector: a person or thing that collects.

Artisan: a person skilled in an applied art; a craftsperson.

Art: the quality, production, expression, or realm, according to aesthetic principles, of what is beautiful, appealing, or of more than ordinary significance.

the process must be sometimes painful and sometimes painless.


amerliN




amerliN

[Johny]

Geeze, i'll be so old, i'll have to order one smaller,
since i'm sure i'll be a shrunken old man when i get it!

g

Man you need to go ride with Mike Barry Senior. :)

[atmo]

It just seems really odd, this
massive backlog thing. If the orders are coming
in faster than they are going out, then something
seems out of balance. I'm sure someone who
knows more about business than me will tell us
something about market price and supply and
demand...

this came up at the show. this backlog thing is not an issue.
you all here are making it an issue. if you added up all of us
who had a long backlog (say - more than 2 years), there really
would not be that many people in the scheme of things. maybe
12 to 20, give or take. if you added added up the annual output
of all of us in that group, the frames may total about 1,000 or
1,500 a year (and that's a stretch) at most. in the industry economy,
these numbers are too small to matter. we/these numbers live
outside the lines of any economic or market trend. the builders
are making frames as fast as they can, and tending to their businesses
equally as fast atmo. if the long waits get under your (whoever the
you is), the blame must rest on the those feeding the machine,
not us on the other side of the counter atmo. we can't make them any
faster, and hiring folks to do our work would be self-defeating. atmo
good for the sasha's and the jonny's and all the others that are getting
long lines from the zeitgeists that are message board aided. none of
these issues would occur without the internet atmo.

[AgilisMerlin]

kinda cool huh :banana:

and if you hired and brought people aboard, to keep pace
you could very well be scratching your head in 5 years
wondering where all the customers went.



amerlin

[big shanty]

It just seems to me that making people wait so far into
the future for a frame that you can't even imagine what
it will be like when it arrives.

g

In the case of a Vanilla, I think your statement/concern could just as easily be spun into an advertisement. True, you don't know what the frame will be like in 5 years, and that is very exciting when you are talking about an artist like Sacha who is, in a sense, "exploring the space with the cowbell". Whatever it is you wind up with in 5 years, you can bet that it will be pretty damn good.

[manet]

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e61/easterncaster/linedupteam.jpg

[Len J]

Grant:

These are some amazing statements from a collector like yourself. Some would argue that one of the reasons ATMO went from 3 yrs to 5 was your posts about your bike....you "Helped" generate the demand by providing free advertising. :D

The demand that creates a 5 year waiting list comes from many places......From Very knowledgable riders like yourself & Obtuse, & Long term riders like myself that have wanted one for years & now has the money....to pure bike collectors who want bragging rights and everywhere in between. The Internet propagates and magnifies the attractivness and Cache" of these builders to the point where people who as little as 2 or 3 years ago never heard of ATMO are now on his waiting list. This forum, with it's collective knowledge, constantly "Promotes" certain brands which in and of itself "creates" demand. There are many lurkers that never post here but read every word.

As to supply.......would you have wanted your ATMO made by an apprentice?

Len

[manet]

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e61/easterncaster/34-P-029-037.jpg

[duke]

I think you are all being put on. It's a bike.

[atmo]

This forum, with it's collective knowledge, constantly "Promotes" certain brands which in and of itself "creates" demand.
and on other forums (www.frameforum.net for example) i began
promoting others (http://www.richardsachs.com/nextwave.html) after nahbs 1.0 when i realized we are in a great
time for framebuilding, and making waves is effin cool atmo. to
wit, there is no freaking reason on earth that some builders are
busy and others aren't, especially with message boards and viral
marketing being so ubiquitous.

[dave thompson]

I think you are all being put on. It's a bike.
No, it's A bike

[Len J]

and on other forums (www.frameforum.net for example) i began
promoting others (http://www.richardsachs.com/nextwave.html) after nahbs 1.0 when i realized we are in a great
time for framebuilding, and making waves is effin cool atmo. to
wit, there is no freaking reason on earth that some builders are
busy and others aren't, especially with message boards and viral
marketing being so ubiquitous.

great term......my Dad used to use that when talking about women of Ill repute.

Len

[SPOKE]

Grant,

Are you implying that if you didn't have a Richard Sachs already, that you would be foolish to wait 5 years for one?

Noah

my name is near the bottom of the list for another Sachs. i'm so impressed with the first one that i decided that i wanted Richard to build me another one. i know it'll be worth the wait. :beer:

[Grant McLean]

As to supply.......would you have wanted your ATMO made by an apprentice?

Len

Don't tell the Donald, he'll have a TV crew at ATMO's before we know it!
Richie gets props because he's the full mac-daddy real really real deal.
I feel what you're saying. These young guys need to understand what
makes them, well them, and what they have to offer.

I hope the best for all the builders who are experiencing these good times.
Make hay while the sun shines, that's my only advice...

g

[manet]

...
Make hay while the sun shines, that's my only advice...

g

arugula crowd

[Len J]

These young guys need to understand what
makes them, well them, and what they have to offer.


g

This kind of knowledge don't come from the outside.....ATMO, it comes from making mistakes.....and it may change over time.

Len

[Ginger]

Grant, I'm picking you (not on you) because you're a good sport, you're reasonable, and you've waited for a custom frame or two...and you've distilled a lot of thoughts here.

I don't know what to think.
But you know what you do think...five years is too long...

I REALLY REALLY wanted a Vanilla single speed,
And when people see things they really want - they want it NOW

so i guess mostly,
i'm pissed that i didn't order
one
whenever the line was shorter, even if the customer didn't know the bike existed....and that translates to the customer not being pissed at themselves, but pissed or impatient at the builder for not building more quicker...even though that might not make it the same bike with the same niche.



Five years is a long time isn't it?
Not really in the grand scheme of things unless you have a particular date you're shooting for


that you can't even imagine what
it will be like when it arrives.
And, since each builder is evolving in their craft, odds are... neither can they. 10 years ago, did Sachs and Pegoretti really know they were going to work together to develop a tube set that they both use? Is a five year old Sachs the same as one built today? Similar yes, but the master has moved on.

Geeze, i'll be so old, i'll have to order one smaller,
since i'm sure i'll be a shrunken old man when i get it!
and you'll be ready for that single speed...in a nice neighborhood cruiser...I'm sure Sacha will make you a very nice one.

G

[iml]

I don't always agree with Sachs, but I do here. Mr. Vanilla is a pal of mine, so I'm biased, but the insinuation that the wait is some sort of manipulated cachet enhancement method chaps my hide. If it's too long, don't get one.

this came up at the show. this backlog thing is not an issue.
you all here are making it an issue. if you added up all of us
who had a long backlog (say - more than 2 years), there really
would not be that many people in the scheme of things. maybe
12 to 20, give or take. if you added added up the annual output
of all of us in that group, the frames may total about 1,000 or
1,500 a year (and that's a stretch) at most. in the industry economy,
these numbers are too small to matter. we/these numbers live
outside the lines of any economic or market trend. the builders
are making frames as fast as they can, and tending to their businesses
equally as fast atmo. if the long waits get under your (whoever the
you is), the blame must rest on the those feeding the machine,
not us on the other side of the counter atmo. we can't make them any
faster, and hiring folks to do our work would be self-defeating. atmo
good for the sasha's and the jonny's and all the others that are getting
long lines from the zeitgeists that are message board aided. none of
these issues would occur without the internet atmo.

[Grant McLean]

I don't always agree with Sachs, but I do here. Mr. Vanilla is a pal of mine, so I'm biased, but the insinuation that the wait is some sort of manipulated cachet enhancement method chaps my hide. If it's too long, don't get one.

manipulated cachet enhancement?

where'd you catch that vibe?
This is a Sacha love-fest, atmo

g

[vaxn8r]

I know how these guys could double their wait times: Start charging $8k per frame. Like chumming the waters...

[Ginger]

manipulated cachet enhancement?

where'd you catch that vibe?
This is a Sacha love-fest, atmo

g


Probably same place I got it...from posts in this thread...

[6day_rider]

I don't always agree with Sachs, but I do here. Mr. Vanilla is a pal of mine, so I'm biased, but the insinuation that the wait is some sort of manipulated cachet enhancement method chaps my hide. If it's too long, don't get one.

iml 4 prezident chapped hide and all.

[big shanty]

It's a Sacha lovefest and gee's the squiggly hair in the punch.

[Tom Byrnes]

I have a solution for all of you.

Put your deposit down on four bike builder's lists:
One with a four or five year wait, one with a three year wait, one with a two year wait, and one who is just starting out. Keep in mind that each builder's price will go up as the years go on and budget accordingly.
Each builder will be building you the bike of that moment when you go for your fitting, not the moment at which you ordered. That way you have somewhat instant gratification and still get those bikes that you lust after.

Each year you'll be getting a new bike as your taste evolves, and you'll be supporting artisans who's work you admire.

Just call me idea girl,
Ginger


Great Idea, Ginger!! I think our pal dbrk has followed that general plan for many years.

And that's kind of what I did yesterday. The Show was great, as evidenced by the many photos presented.

I would have liked to order bikes from several of the talented framebuilders, but settled for three: A Vanilla, a Kirk and a Vendetta, a small, new Oregon company that had some very impressive bikes in its booth.

With Vendetta, there is absolutely no wait. My bike, a track bike with stainless steel Sachs lugs with an Acme paint job, will be the next one produced. I will have it this summer.

Today, I sent Sacha and Dave my deposits and I will patiently wait, knowing that when my number comes up with each artist, I will get a unique and exquisite piece of rolling art.

While I would like to receive those bikes now (like everyone else). I am truly delighted that Sacha, Dave and other builders have waiting lists. Those waiting lists ensure the framebuilders' continued existence and allow them the piece of mind and economic freedom to explore new ideas and continually hone their craft and art. And we all profit from that.

In the meantime, as Steve H. noted, I, like many others here, have other bikes to ride.

I have been waiting for more than two years for my new Sachs, and expect to have to wait for at least another eighteen months. I expect delivery of my Tournesol in a few months and my Curt Goodrich in a year (?). So, this weekend, I simply added to my list. The time goes by real fast anyway.

I am very fortunate to have the anticipated deliveries of beautiful bikes staggered over the next several years. I just have to live long enough to receive and enjoy them.

Tom

P.S. The waiting lists for a Vanilla or a Kirk are only going to get longer. Get in line now.

[Steve Hampsten]

Grant, there were some guys at that nambla thing that if I were looking for an uber-cool singlespeed to kill my friends with - they could knock it out.

Iow, pick the next Sacha White and buy a bike from him - now.

(Me, I'd get an A.N.T. if I wanted a groovy singler myself, but there were several strong contenders)

[Sacha White]

Hi All,

I just got back home from the NAHMBS, and am bushed, but I wanted to chime in here really quick.

1- If I could turn out uncompromised bikes in 3-6 months for good folks like Grant, and Shawn (from RAGBRAI) I would be a happy man.

2- I _do_ have assistants. 2 of them. I brought them on to handle all of the nonbuilding tasks involved in running a business like this as well as things like stainless polishing. This frees me up to focus on what I feel are the most important aspects of what is done in my shop: fitting my customers, designing, and building.

3- one frame a month? Let's not talk about things that we dont know about. I am hard at work. 60 hours a week is the norm. If you dont believe me, ask my daughters and my wife.

for the last 7+ years of building, my wait has been steadily growing. Throughout this time I have constantly considered my options for how to meet demand. If I am able to integrate a more efficient method, without compromising the end result, I do it.

The bottom line is that I have chosen to be the builder of my bikes and to persue excelence in my craft. This is the reason that my bikes are what they are.

With all of the possible directions to take my company, this is the one that feels honest.

xoxo,

Sacha

[Elefantino]

If those of us who are non-builders would pause to think, just for a second: On this forum we have the ability to listen to and converse with RS, TK, DK, SW (and I'm sorry if I'm forgetting others).

How cool is that?

Sure, some of us may swoon occasionally, tilting toward "love fest." And why not? These folks make great bikes. Bikes for people who really appreciate bikes and are willing to pay for, and wait for, works of rolling art. And they make them their way. Whether or not the fact that you have to wait years for their product increases the hype is immaterial. It's a free market.

There's a different between an M5 and a 612 Scaglietti. One has a waiting list.

Me? I hope that wait for Terraplanes gets even longer. That way I can tell the boss: "We won't have to pay for it for years!"

Sorry for the distraction...

[soulspinner]

The wait time can change for the better too if circumstances change. I certainly can see Grants side of this but nobody wants Mr White to change his quality standards. Hell, I only get one new bike every 4 or 5 years. Better get my deposit in now, before my resting pulse catches up with my age... :p

[Climb01742]

i've said this to richie in the past: i wish he had an apprentice so his knowledge would be passed on. what richie knows, what sacha knows, what curt and TK and (others names here) know is special and valuable. dario learned as an apprentice, then took that knowledge to new places. knowledge was learned, "saved/perserved", then built on. cycling would be a poorer thing if what richie has learned in a lifetime, well, vanishes with him. master builder/apprentice is a centuries old way not simply to produce more, but to pass on more. i don't do what i do as well as folks like richie and sacha do what they do, but... teaching young creatives the craft of ads is kinda fun. imagine what richie or sacha could teach? this isn't meant at all as a critique. more like a plea from future generations. :D :p :) :beer:

[rwsaunders]

Have you tried making an appointment with your Opthamologist lately? Unless you have a pencil impaled in your retina, there's a six month wait.

[Moosedryvr]

All,
I hope that my post above did not come across as a whine, or worse, a dig at any of the artisan frame builders being discussed in this thread. I have nothing but the utmost respect and admiration for Sacha, atmo, Dave Kirk, Steve H & co and all of the others who make our dreams come true with torch and tubes. I am thrilled for each of them that they are experiencing the success that they so obviously deserve, and have no desire, or place, suggesting changes to anyone's business model. Holy cow folks, these guys are doing what they want to do, how they want to do it and folks are standing in line to pay them for it, doesn't sound like anything is broke to me. I am simply frustrated, at myself, for missing a chance to commemorate a significant life event (for me) with a stunning work of Sacha's art by underestimating the demand. That's my bad, not his, and I do not hope that he will do anything to change his production methods to reduce his wait times. Shoot, his production method (one bike at a time, built by him) is a big part of what attracted me to Vanilla in the first place! Let's face it folks, we suffer from an embarrassment of riches right now in the handmade bike building business. If one builder or another has a wait time that doesn't fit your needs, their are several other spectacular options available. How sweet is that? All the best to each of the builders on this forum. I hope all of you have more business than you can handle and thank you for your dedication to your craft.

Shawn G

[atmo]

i've said this to richie in the past: i wish he had an apprentice so his knowledge would be passed on.
spend time on the framebuilder listserve or frameforum.net and
you will see that i do more than my share of mentoring as well
as keeping it all in the public eye atmo!

[Too Tall]

"Cumberland Blues"
Words by Robert Hunter; music by Jerry Garcia and Phil Lesh
Copyright Ice Nine Publishing; used by permission

I can't stay much longer, Melinda
The sun is getting high
I can't help you with your troubles
If you won't help with mine

I gotta get down
I gotta get down
Got to get down to the mine

You keep me up just one more night
I can't sleep here no more
Little Ben clock says quarter to eight
You kept me up till four

I gotta get down
I gotta get down
Or I can't work there no more

Lotta poor man make a five dollar bill
Keep him happy all the time
Some other fellow making nothing at all
And you can hear him cryin...

"Can I go buddy
Can I go down
Take your shift at the mine?"

Got to get down to the Cumberland mine
That's where I mainly spend my time
Make good money/five dollars a day
Made any more I might move away -

Lotta poor man got the Cumberland Blues
He can't win for losin
Lotta poor man got to walk the line
Just to pay his union dues

I don't know now
I just don't know
If I'm goin back again
I don't know now
I just don't know
If I'm goin back again

[dauwhe]

i've said this to richie in the past: i wish he had an apprentice so his knowledge would be passed on. what richie knows, what sacha knows, what curt and TK and (others names here) know is special and valuable. dario learned as an apprentice, then took that knowledge to new places. knowledge was learned, "saved/perserved", then built on. cycling would be a poorer thing if what richie has learned in a lifetime, well, vanishes with him. master builder/apprentice is a centuries old way not simply to produce more, but to pass on more. i don't do what i do as well as folks like richie and sacha do what they do, but... teaching young creatives the craft of ads is kinda fun. imagine what richie or sacha could teach? this isn't meant at all as a critique. more like a plea from future generations. :D :p :) :beer:

I think it's up to them. And at least some of what's been learned will be passed on because of the tangible nature of the result. We can learn something from the bikes themselves. And knowledge and ideas can be circulalated outside of a master/apprentice relationship--this forum and the ramble are just two examples (it was very cool to see Curt Goodrich, Peter Weigle, and Mike Barry, and Steve Hampsten chatting at the ramble).

And if there are some artists who choose not to teach, because that's not what they want to do, that's OK. We still get the gift of their talent.

Dave

[stevep]

the bike business is a small , almost backwater business.
thats the beauty of it. i cant come up with anythig like it in the world that we live in...
look at the framebuilders on this forum.
these guys make ( by a country mile ) the best bikes that have ever been made. they are true artisans, none of them is jumping through the hoops to "increase supply " because it's not that easy to do. hire staff, you gotta train them, you have to pay them, you have to pay insurance for them, you need a larger location, your heat bill goes up, electricity, etc.
all for another few frames a month and a potentially diminished product.
these guys are all making a living doing it... and they have an equilibrium in their lives that does not lend itself to the headaches of a larger operation.
the bigger he business gets ( employees ) the tasks change dramatically.

atmo/ tom/ curt/ sasha/ peter/ etc- we want more frames, shorter wait lists!
now tom will be overseeing the guy building his forks, peter will be paying a larger insurance bill, curt will be worrying about the tubing supply, getting enough lugs, but after all that you wont be getting a exact;y what you bargained for...
do you want that?

[J.Greene]

spend time on the framebuilder listserve or frameforum.net and
you will see that i do more than my share of mentoring as well
as keeping it all in the public eye atmo!

yes it's true, and a very public thanks for helping those of us who offer nothing back to the frame building advice you dish out.

JG

[quaintjh]

[QUOTE=stevep]the bike business is a small , almost backwater business.
thats the beauty of it. i cant come up with anythig like it in the world that we live in...

The closest I can think of is custom musical instruments. Gilchirst has a 6 year wait for a mandolin that sells for $20-25,000. The same is true here. Many of these instuments are better than anything made before--ever. Though some are really wacked--just like bikes.

Check here for some p0rn:

http://www.mandolincafe.com/archives/builders/f.html

Jay

[manet]

[QUOTE=stevep]the bike business is a small , almost backwater business.
thats the beauty of it. i cant come up with anythig like it in the world that we live in...

The closest I can think of is custom musical instruments. Gilchirst has a 6 year wait for a mandolin that sells for $20-25,000. The same is true here. Many of these instuments are better than anything made before--ever. Though some are really wacked--just like bikes.

Check here for some p0rn:

http://www.mandolincafe.com/archives/builders/f.html

Jay

fly rods _ especially cane

[Erik.Lazdins]

Back in college after being displeased with another DuKoff mouthpiece I bought - and my "A" piece no longer what it once was I contacted Dave Guardala.
We spoke on the phone, I sent him the money that I had saved up and received far and above what I expected.

There are artists in other businesses.

[Climb01742]

spend time on the framebuilder listserve or frameforum.net and
you will see that i do more than my share of mentoring as well
as keeping it all in the public eye atmo!

richie, i hope you didn't feel my comments were a criticism. i know you share info freely.

[OldDog]

i've said this to richie in the past: i wish he had an apprentice so his knowledge would be passed on. what richie knows, what sacha knows, what curt and TK and (others names here) know is special and valuable. dario learned as an apprentice, then took that knowledge to new places. knowledge was learned, "saved/perserved", then built on. cycling would be a poorer thing if what richie has learned in a lifetime, well, vanishes with him. master builder/apprentice is a centuries old way not simply to produce more, but to pass on more. i don't do what i do as well as folks like richie and sacha do what they do, but... teaching young creatives the craft of ads is kinda fun. imagine what richie or sacha could teach? this isn't meant at all as a critique. more like a plea from future generations. :D :p :) :beer:


Just to give kudos where due, TK has a partner in Jeff Duser. Jeff has been building steel spectrum bikes for many years, since back in the Ross days. I have had the chance on a few occasions to hang at the barn and chat with Jeff for a bit. His skill at producing a lugged steel bike is shown time and again with each steel spectrum. He is a great builder that rarely gets his due recognition. Here's to Jeff :beer:

[atmo]

richie, i hope you didn't feel my comments were a criticism. i know you share info freely.
not at all - really!
it's just that, especially after a long weekend at nahbs,
i realize fully the magnitude of the virtual word, and a
gazilliion folks read posts and threads and often have no
idea past one sentence or one thought atmo. i figured i'd
punctuate yours with mine atmo.

[manet]

Just to give kudos where due, TK has a partner in Jeff Duser. Jeff has been building steel spectrum bikes for many years, since back in the Ross days. I have had the chance on a few occasions to hang at the barn and chat with Jeff for a bit. His skill at producing a lugged steel bike is shown time and again with each steel spectrum. He is a great builder that rarely gets his due recognition. Here's to Jeff :beer:

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e61/easterncaster/fp30.jpg

[manet]

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e61/easterncaster/fp334.jpg

[H1449-6]

Sacha will run his business any way he wants to, but the market is telling him to raise prices.

[atmo]

Sacha will run his business any way he wants to, but the market is telling him to raise prices.
you may be misconstruing the situation; there are
no prices. what is being charged today, in mar 07,
for frames ordered ?? years ago is not what the guys
will pay in ??? years after queueing up this week.
you can use the 07 price as a barometer, but rest
assured that there is no way that anyone can lock in
a price a year out, much less several. sacha and i, and
others, talk about this often. he's likely still asleep, so
i'll take the heat for this information atmo.

[Too Tall]

you may be misconstruing the situation; there are
no prices. what is being charged today, in mar 07,
for frames ordered ?? years ago is not what the guys
will pay in ??? years after queueing up this week.
you can use the 07 price as a barometer, but rest
assured that there is no way that anyone can lock in
a price a year out, much less several. sacha and i, and
others, talk about this often. he's likely still asleep, so
i'll take the heat for this information atmo.

Speaking as a customer...I second that emotion.

[catulle]

Yup, you're right. You better order a Henderson guitar, atmo...

[abqhudson]

47 months!!! I'm 69 years old - I might be gone before then.

Maybe there is a senior plan.

Just received a beautiful Serotta frame in the mail - waited two weeks for it and that seemed like a long wait.

Jim

[catulle]

Some seven years ago I was looking to buy the nicest bike I could find. Of course, I searched the Internet. After a few days of searching I ran into the Richard Sachs website. I had never before heard of his name but I liked what I read and saw. Then I read the wait was over a year, probably two; which got me thinking: "How is he going to build a frame for me by mail? How is he going to know exactly what would be the specs for a frame for me? I'll just wait and maybe come visit him someday." Now I regret not having picked up the phone to talk to the man directly and by now I'd be riding my second RS bike. Then, I ended-up with a C-40.

Many years ago I used to spend all of my spare time shooting feathered game. When I first learned about Randall Knives in Orlando one had to wait a couple of months for a knife (that was way before the Internet, way before I heard the word computer, I think.) One good day I figured I had nothing to loose and sent a letter with a check for a knife. I forgot all about it and before I knew it I had a most wonderful knife in my hands. I was so impressed that I never used it. I still have it, unused. Ever since, I've had a bunch of Randall and other knives which have seen a lot of use.

I think what's admirable in a world of too expensive carbon fiber frames is that you can buy a perfectly and truly handcrafted frame for less than half the cost of a mediocre way-too-expensive-mostly-industrial carbon frame. There is a ten years wait for a $1,500 Wayne Henderson guitar. Eric Clapton had to wait almost as many years for one of his guitars, and Henderson hardly knew who was Clapton, nor did he care to know.

If any of the hand-built frame makers, with a minimum of marketing savvy and perspicacity, started charging $8,000 for a frame, their waiting list might be shorter but there'd still be a lot of work for that guy. Why? Because there seems to be a market for the most expensive anything; even if the most expensive is a piece of... junk.

For all of the above disjointed rant, get on the waiting list now. One of differences between rational and irrational beings is the threshold for delayed gratification, atmo...

[92degrees]

This is a sincere question asked with respect: why is there a deposit for waiting your turn for a frame? I buy other custom made items — catulle mentioned knives and that is one such item — I often order and wait 5-7 years for handmade custom knives — but I’ve almost never been asked for a deposit. The only exception being if I’ve asked for rare materials and the maker is putting them aside for me. If there are so many people in line for frames, and more getting in line every day, why does a builder need to hold many hundreds of my dollars for several years? Again, this isn’t intended as criticism.

[zap]

It's his business.

He does interesting work.

Yes, if he were a shrewd businessman, he'd hire some staff.

Stash some cash.

History shows that stuff like this doesn't last.

One recession.

Cancelled orders.

Soup line.

[catulle]

Who makes your knives? :) Just about all knife makers I know, with a few exceptions where there is an old personal relationship, ask for a deposit. Randall, of course, is kind'a semi-industrial now days and ask for a deposit, but most of the guild guys ask for a deposit too. Just saying...

I mean, there are so many basket cases on the Internet and all over that the builders need a minimum of certainty about their orders in order to keep some kind of order about their business. How's that for order. Love it...!!! :banana:

[92degrees]

Who makes your knives? :) Just about all knife makers I know, with a few exceptions where there is an old personal relationship, ask for a deposit. Randall, of course, is kind'a semi-industrial now days and ask for a deposit, but most of the guild guys ask for a deposit. Just saying...


I have a dozen knives on order with Tony and Reese Bose (3-5yrs), knives on order with Horn (who knows), Phil Boguszewski (4yrs), Kit Carson (who knows), Tom Overeynder, Bill Ruple, Ryuichi Kawamura, PJ Tomes. I've ordered knives from 29 makers in the past two years without ever paying a deposit.

[CNote]

Just to give kudos where due, TK has a partner in Jeff Duser. Jeff has been building steel spectrum bikes for many years, since back in the Ross days. I have had the chance on a few occasions to hang at the barn and chat with Jeff for a bit. His skill at producing a lugged steel bike is shown time and again with each steel spectrum. He is a great builder that rarely gets his due recognition. Here's to Jeff :beer:

Same goes for Carl Strong, who has given others the opportunity to get involved. My bike (below), is a direct result, so I am thankful.

[catulle]

I have a dozen knives on order with Tony and Reese Bose (3-5yrs), knives on order with Horn (who knows), Phil Boguszewski (4yrs), Kit Carson (who knows), Tom Overeynder, Bill Ruple, Ryuichi Kawamura, PJ Tomes. I've ordered knives from 29 makers in the past two years without ever paying a deposit.

Tell Tony that you'll pick up your knife at the Atlanta show and you'll get it much faster. I must reckon I've never paid him a deposit. If you send me your e-mail I'll send you some pics you'll like. Regarding Tomes, I wouldn't pay him a deposit as I wouldn't buy from him; been there, done that. The others, Horn for instance, know that if they finish your knife and you don't want it they'll have a bunch of guys and stores (Nordic, Legend...) ready to pick it up. If Sachs builds a frame for me, would you buy it? I have the idea we're not of the same size.

Besides, just think of the present/future value of those $500 as a contribution to a noble cause.

Post pics. You show me yours, I'll show you mine. By the way, over 29 knives in two years? Wow...!

[atmo]

I have a dozen knives on order with Tony and Reese Bose (3-5yrs), knives on order with Horn (who knows), Phil Boguszewski (4yrs), Kit Carson (who knows), Tom Overeynder, Bill Ruple, Ryuichi Kawamura, PJ Tomes. I've ordered knives from 29 makers in the past two years without ever paying a deposit.
curious in chester -
would you have still queued up for these if there
was a required deposit of, say - ten percent atmo?

[sspielman]

I can't imagine some sort of deposit not being in order. After all, the only real way to seperate the serious from the not serious customer is for the customer to come off of some gelt

[Climb01742]

doesn't a deposit, to some extent, weed out window-shopping? asking for something upfront seems fair to me. a sign that you're seriously interested. (oops, sspielman was quicker on the draw. ;) )

[catulle]

29 makers + 12 Bose X $800 (easy average) = $32,800 X 10% = $3,280 in two years. Hmmm, I'd rather order a couple of red frames and use the rest to bribe my way to the top of the line, atmo...

[manet]

doesn't a deposit, to some extent, weed out window-shopping? asking for something upfront seems fair to me. a sign that you're seriously interested.

back to the engagement ring are we

[catulle]

back to the engagement ring are we

With or without a diamond. Are all diamonds blood diamonds?

[davids]

A deposit makes sense to me. Otherwise, I'd have been in line for a Sachs, Vanilla, and Kirk for two years now. And when I got to the front of whatever queue reached me first, I'd drop off the other two lists. Seriously.

And why should these guys have to put up with that kind of gaming, and spend time on list management rather than welding and interweb proselytizing? It seems perfectly reasonable to me that I should put some cash down to make a commitment. It's a contract, atmo.


...I've stayed out of this because much of it seems like such a silly discussion. Long waits are the simple consequence of supply and demand: "Supply" is hand-crafted bicycle frames. "Demand" is growing. Therefore, wait time lengthens. Q.E.D.

[Climb01742]

back to the engagement ring are we

ain't that the truth, brother.

[Sacha White]

Sacha will run his business any way he wants to, but the market is telling him to raise prices.

He has, and is.

[dash]

And why should these guys have to put up with that kind of gaming, and spend time on list management rather than welding and interweb proselytizing? It seems perfectly reasonable to me that I should put some cash down to make a commitment. It's a contract, atmo.


so, i agree that a deposit is reasonable. but for what are you making a commitment? a contract for what? at what price? how can you do it?

[atmo]

ain't that the truth, brother.
provo -
one ring.
one size fits all atmo.
discuss.

[catulle]

All around the ring now, atmo...

[Climb01742]

He has, and is.

sorry, $8000 for a frame only is taken.






:D

[92degrees]

atmo -- I suspect that if each of those gents required me to send them money then no, I wouldn't be on their list. I'd prefer to spend that money on something more readily available (bike parts! food!). That said, in 10 years of collecting I've never had my "number" come up and then backed out of an order. If I did, I would assume that they would simply move to the next person on their list.

catulle -- I wouldn't think that a framemaker or knifemaker would build something custom and THEN contact the person on their list. Usually I get a call or email asking if I'm still interested or if there are any changes to my order. Seems fair. Also, I'll PM you on the knives, I don't want to screw up this thread with a big drift.

[catulle]

so, i agree that a deposit is reasonable. but for what are you making a commitment? a contract for what? at what price? how can you do it?

I asked the missus the same question and she beat me upside the head... :no:

[Sacha White]

This is a sincere question asked with respect: why is there a deposit for waiting your turn for a frame? I buy other custom made items — catulle mentioned knives and that is one such item — I often order and wait 5-7 years for handmade custom knives — but I’ve almost never been asked for a deposit. The only exception being if I’ve asked for rare materials and the maker is putting them aside for me. If there are so many people in line for frames, and more getting in line every day, why does a builder need to hold many hundreds of my dollars for several years? Again, this isn’t intended as criticism.

Having a multi year wait is fine, and if future interested parties don't want to wait that is an understandable choice. But I need to know that I am turning potential customers away with a lead time that is real. This means having a current list of customers who are commited, and a nonrefundable deposit makes that comitment real.

-Sacha

[92degrees]

Aack. I wrote a long response and it's gone. Thanks Sacha, that makes sense.

[Sacha White]

snip...

they are true artisans, none of them is jumping through the hoops to "increase supply " because it's not that easy to do. hire staff, you gotta train them, you have to pay them, you have to pay insurance for them, you need a larger location, your heat bill goes up, electricity, etc.
all for another few frames a month and a potentially diminished product.
these guys are all making a living doing it... and they have an equilibrium in their lives that does not lend itself to the headaches of a larger operation.
the bigger he business gets ( employees ) the tasks change dramatically.

Stevep,

My choices are not about what is and isn't "easy to do". I am happy to run an efficient business and take on the tasks that come along with it. I _do_ have assistants, and I _do_ pay them and their health insurance.

I draw the line at other people building my bikes, not because I am lazy, but because, in my experience, this is a compromise. There is a whole world of compromised goods out there without me adding to the heap in order to crank bikes out faster.

-Sacha

[Dave B]

With all due respect to the wonderful minds and opinions here, there are some of you who are nuts! :)

Many good things take months and years of waiting to come to fruition.

Being able to vote and be recognized as an adult 18 years

Being able to get married (I think even in the most backward states) 16 years.

Becoming a parent at least 6 to 9 months, and sometimes decades of trying.

Most of Davinci's works, I don't know I wasn't there, but I bet it took years.

Bicycles that are built to be one of a kind for the owner.....apparently now we are at 5 years.


Folks, these frames built by artists are in fact art, which is why we pay the high prices and wait many moons for them. Who are we to tell an artist, "Hey dude I want my original piece of work that no one will have the exact thing built specially for just me as I am the most important person in the world now!"

If you do not want to wait then don't, no one is forcing you to purchase any of these frames.

If the artist wishes to wait 10 years before getting to your order, then you have a choice to make.

Would his/her demand go down, maybe, will it drive off some potential customer, probably. That is why the K, Wal, Price marts do not have them in stock.

That is also why we have Trek, Giant, Cannondale, blah blah blah.

All good bikes, but 1000's can all have the T-Mobile, Discovery, Liquigas team bike.

You want something special, and you are going tohave to pay and wait for it. That is one of the reasons you are doing so, as to be part of an elite club.

Plus these wonderful artists do not choose to stall or fool around because they are excentric. They do it right the first time, which is why you are buying it in the first place.

Or, go to ebay and get a used one.

I could be wrong, but I doubt it! :rolleyes:

To all of the special men and women who build beautiful works of art who share their dreams and visions with us, thanks. You make the industry pure and beautiful!

[catulle]

Whoaa...!! Mr. President for President...!!!

[Dave B]

Right on Brother!

Now I can collect campaign contributions! :banana: :banana: :banana:

And get on a wating list!

[djg]

I don't see the problem, really, except to the extent that somebody has just gotta, gotta, have a new frame now, made-to-measure, from one of the handful or so folks who have such waiting lists.

White, ATMO, Kirk, et al., are entitled to pursue their crafts and live their lives as they think best. Provided that they're honest with folks about timetables, and plausible margins for error, the list is what it is. More power to 'em. My guess is that none of their customers are going without bikes while the list ticks away. In the meantime, some very well regarded builders, both smaller (e.g., Spectrum), and somewhat larger (anybody remember the board's sponsor, Serotta?) make killer made-to-measure road frames on what were, last I checked, much, much quicker turnarounds. There seem to be dozens of folks getting good mentions here--Zank, DeSalvo, Kish, Strong, we can just keep going. Pegoretti will do made-to-measure, last I checked, and has stock frames for sale today. I don't mean to fix the list, or even suggest that I have a well-informed opinion of which specific builders anybody should contact, just that the market seems to offer quite a few choices, even if it's got to be made-to-measure, even from a well-established builder. Throw stock frames into the mix -- and I believe that there are excellent stock frames available -- and there are even more choices.

I find myself in a funny -- but not quite paradoxical -- position here: On the one hand, I don't have a fleet of bikes (although I have three, road, cross, and fixed), and I don't see myself hopping in a three or four or five year queue for a dream frame; at the same time, I think it's cool that there's at least a few folks going their own ways, making it really work for themselves, and producing frames for which some folks will wait and wait. If my main geared road bike gets trashed tomorrow, and I "need" something by the weekend, I think I can find something suitable. If I want a custom frame within the year, I can cover that too. What's not to like?

Ok, sure, there are a few particular individuals whose labor I cannot coopt today or next week either. Tough place, the world, but I figure I can get ATMO to build me a frame much more easily than I can get Scarlett to give me a back rub or Charlize to bake me some cupcakes. I'll manage.

[dash]

I figure I can get ATMO to build me a frame much more easily than I can get Scarlett to give me a back rub or Charlize to bake me some cupcakes


djg,

don't sell yourself short - you have five years to work on Scarlett and Charlize...although an RS frame is more durable than a backrub or a cupcake ;)

[72gmc]

about 100 posts ago I came up with a list of things to do while waiting. To me that's the only answer because the wait is simply part of the price for the frame. If Sacha needs 47 months or longer to put creativity and skill and the spirit of a happy, well-balanced artist into my frame, that's good by me.

[catulle]

djg,

don't sell yourself short - you have five years to work on Scarlett and Charlize...although an RS frame is more durable than a backrub or a cupcake ;)

Hey, scratch Scarlett off your list, atmo... :no:

[catulle]

Tough place, the world, but I figure I can get ATMO to build me a frame much more easily than I can get Scarlett to give me a back rub or Charlize to bake me some cupcakes. I'll manage.

I don't know about Charlize, but you better talk to Atmo 'cause you ain't getting no back rub from Scarlett, atmo...

[stackie]

In response to climb's request to E-richie...

I asked the same of him. Would you ever take on an apprentice to pass on your skills. He voiced that he was of the opinion that taking on an apprentice would not work. His feeling is that one needs to be involved in production bicycles first. That way, one could learn the skill of each individual operation by performing it hundreds of times in a short time frame, rather than once every couple of weeks as it would be done in his shop. I pointed out to him that there were no production facilities building lugged steel frames. His response, with a rather wry smile, was the builders like himself were a dying breed. He voiced only a few extremely gifted individuals would be able to learn the craft from a limited mentorship or a course at UBI. So, I guess the answer is to get yourself on the list for the old masters before they are gone. Then, as someone else stated, get yourself on the list for the next Sacha White. I so lucked out in finding him before the rest of you did.

I've got my eye on who might be the next one.

Jon

[ss-jimbo]

If you don't like the wait time then don't order the frame. Order someone else's frame. But as the wait time goes, it seems like the people b****ing about it are pretty adept at killing time, atmo.

[atmo]

In response to climb's request to E-richie...

I asked the same of him. Would you ever take on an apprentice to pass on your skills. He voiced that he was of the opinion that taking on an apprentice would not work. His feeling is that one needs to be involved in production bicycles first. That way, one could learn the skill of each individual operation by performing it hundreds of times in a short time frame, rather than once every couple of weeks as it would be done in his shop. I pointed out to him that there were no production facilities building lugged steel frames. His response, with a rather wry smile, was the builders like himself were a dying breed. He voiced only a few extremely gifted individuals would be able to learn the craft from a limited mentorship or a course at UBI. So, I guess the answer is to get yourself on the list for the old masters before they are gone. Then, as someone else stated, get yourself on the list for the next Sacha White. I so lucked out in finding him before the rest of you did.

I've got my eye on who might be the next one.

Jon
stackie - great meeting you atmo. i think you may have
misinterpreted the conversation. my point was that framebuilding,
per se was not relevant (anymore) when juxtaposed with earlier
eras. the mtb and its ilk turned industry upside down, netting
mega-huuuuuuge improvements across the board in terms of
material, design, and manufacturing quality. industrial-made
bicycles are quite good these days; i think i noted that i believe
many are better than those that (may) come from hand-builders.
anyway, the history lesson is/was that the need to go to a frame-
builder to get high quality is far less than it was back then. in
the wake of all this, the, er, craft, has lost market share, and my
dying breed reference may have been part of that thought atmo.

[Too Tall]

With or without a diamond. Are all diamonds blood diamonds?
Canada is calling ;)

Look, these are BESPOKE items. KA wit talking about this nonsense so Twizz can get back to the torch or the wait will be 10 yrs. !!!!

[catulle]

Canada is calling ;)

Look, these are BESPOKE items. KA wit talking about this nonsense so Twizz can get back to the torch or the wait will be 10 yrs. !!!!

Atmo's are Zen frames: Built with the mind, atmo... He just thinks to the torch and posts. If he wants to he can cut his wait time to a few hours but that'd be poor marketing.

[Waldo]

I am 44. If I wait a couple of months, wait for Vanilla should be just right for me to order a frame for my 50th birthday.

I know these waits are real and there are no solutions. It's just insane, that's all.

[Grant McLean]

Atmo's are Zen frames: Built with the mind, atmo... He just thinks to the torch and posts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPVtGUTbc-Y

g

[AgilisMerlin]

Be extremely subtle, even to the point of formlessness.

Be extremely mysterious, even to the point of soundlessness.


Thereby you can be the director of the opponent's fate.



Sun-tzu, The Art of War. Emptiness and Fullness

[Steelhead]

that nambla thing

Good one....

[Ginger]

I am 44. If I wait a couple of months, wait for Vanilla should be just right for me to order a frame for my 50th birthday.

I know these waits are real and there are no solutions. It's just insane, that's all.
I suspect, since it is just after the show you better give Vanilla a call today to get on the list...Remember, you can always have them wait a little bit...

[djg]

I don't know about Charlize, but you better talk to Atmo 'cause you ain't getting no back rub from Scarlett, atmo...

Don't panic Catulle, if Scarlett knocks on my door, I'lll try to call you before my wife picks her up, one-handed, and tosses her your way. This is gonna happen just about the same time I'll have to to bribe Ms. Natalie Portman for the afikomen. Next year in ... well, mañana as y'all say at pesach.

[flydhest]

Don't panic Catulle, if Scarlett knocks on my door, I'lll try to call you before my wife picks her up, one-handed, and tosses her your way. This is gonna happen just about the same time I'll have to to bribe Ms. Natalie Portman for the afikomen. Next year in ... well, mañana as y'all say at pesach.

next year in Boca . . . right?

[Steelhead]

47 months!!! I'm 69 years old - I might be gone before then.

Maybe there is a senior plan.

Just received a beautiful Serotta frame in the mail - waited two weeks for it and that seemed like a long wait.

Jim

Was that a custom??? If so mine will be here before the end of March! :banana:

[sailorboy]

This thread doesn't need another post but; I just want to say that I think there is nothing better than to hear that the wait lists for the vanillas, sachs, weigles et. al. have gone to that level because it means so much to the health of the vocation of hand-built bicycles. Vocation might not even be the right word, its more than that. Hopefully this show and all the great things to publicize what these last independent or non-OTS makers are doing will only spread the love around. My hope is that all the good indys will have a 47 month wait soon, eventually translating to more great minds/hands taking up this craft. Don't people think that just a few years ago we'd have a thread about how not enough people are buying custom bikes from indy builders?

Soap box disclaimer: my vanilla order is nearing completion at this time, AND I recently found a lightly used RS in my size.

Goodnight!

[dash]

I recently found a lightly used RS in my size


speaking of which, why have we not seen pictures of this RS and the JPW that was part of the purchase? c'mon sailorboy, share! :) :) :)

[atmo]

Hopefully this show and all the great things to publicize what these last independent or non-OTS makers are doing will only spread the love around.
veer -
if nothing else, please thank don walker atmo. he brought you this show,
and the previous two. he deserves major-league props, as well as a really
big reward atmo. if there is a future for the current and next wave, it'll be
due largely to nahbs.

[dash]

thank don walker atmo. he brought you this show,
and the previous two. he deserves major-league props, as well as a really
big reward atmo. if there is a future for the current and next wave, it'll be
due largely to nahbs.


absolutely!!! how does don walker get recognition for this show? surely not enough...

[David Kirk]

veer -
if nothing else, please thank don walker atmo. he brought you this show,
and the previous two. he deserves major-league props, as well as a really
big reward atmo. if there is a future for the current and next wave, it'll be
due largely to nahbs.

WOO WOO WOO!

Dave

[djg]

next year in Boca . . . right?

Well...mebbe I've got three or four years before Boca. Some long for the old country, and some for the really old country.

[sailorboy]

speaking of which, why have we not seen pictures of this RS and the JPW that was part of the purchase? c'mon sailorboy, share! :) :) :)
Patience grasshopper!

+1 regarding DW's contribution to the movement. May there be many more shows in the years to come; I'll actually make it there eventually.

[davyt]

I figure it would take me about five season's worth of training to get Sachsworthy anyway, so I don't quite understand what all the fuss is about!

[gt6267a]

next year in Boca . . . right?

dude, how old are you? you do realize there is a minimum age requirement to go to the discontinous part of new york? my grandmo complains about the young people all the time. she is 80. the people she is complaining about are 70. that's like more than twice my age. how about next year in london? we can bike on the wrong side of the road, park on curbs, party like rock stars until bar time, and still get to bed by midnight. did i mention the stupid amazing panini tuna sandwiches on saint martin's legrand near where i used to work? first round of bitters is on me. if anyone will meet me at mesclun in stoke newington i'll fly over and meet you there.

[ispy]

I AM bummed that Sasha's wait is now almost double the 26 months it was when I visited him in Portland last August (when he graciously gave a shop tour to 10 runners visiting for Hood-to-Coast, and there was much jaw dropping and drooling over a certain tricycle on display). But having only last year switched from (admittedly not enough) running to cycling, the newbie part of me welcomes the long wait. Sure it's a little nuts (as some friends think) to be sending in deposits now, but I'm counting on this window of time to become a better cyclist, save up the money, develop/evaluate my preferences, etc; it's sort of an enforced-commitment plan and I for one don't mind that. Well that's the protestant-derived-guilt-laden-gotta-justify-my-indulgences-with-hard-work-or-even-penitence part of me, FWIW; in the meantime my grasshopper half is enjoying my second-hand Sachs ;) (OK, wondering if I should send HIM a deposit) and plotting my Mariposa, which is still roughly a year and a half away, but that's real soon by comparison...

Seems like these wait lists give some sort of long term stability to the framebuilders. Robert Irwin once said that artists must separate their finances from their creative output (well RI does well enough), otherwise they will never be free enough to push their envelopes. I don't mean to imply that Sasha's, or atmo's framebuildings are only art and not business (I can only imagine they are at the happy nexus, a rare sweet spot, of both). I just think that if the long term nature of the wait list contributes to a situation that supports even better "output", then that could only be good for future customers.

Just don't burn out.

Please.

[ispy]

And besides, if not wanting to wait so long encourages potential customers to look elsewhere, to patronize the newer framebuilders, that wouldn't be such a bad trickle-down effect, eh?

Any economists care to weigh in on this?

I got a bad grade in Econ...

[Serpico]

.
a framebuilder's product is their integrity.

if they compromise, their product will suffer.

if the product suffers you won't want it.



the only two options:

1) get a bike you don't want tomorrow

2) get the bike you do want in X number of months/years


how many products do you own with the builder's name on the side of it? that's their bond--respect the downtube.
.

[atmo]

And besides, if not wanting to wait so long encourages potential customers to look elsewhere, to patronize the newer framebuilders, that wouldn't be such a bad trickle-down effect, eh?
no, it wouldn't (http://richardsachs.com/nextwave.html) atmo.

[catulle]

"Custom" can be said to include any frame or bicycle whose order precedes its existance.

Sartre is riding a red bike in nothingness, atmo... If Sartre had a son he'd call him Atmo, atmo... If I had a red bike I'd paint it the color of existentialism, atmo...

[atmo]

"Custom" can be said to include any frame or bicycle whose order precedes its existance.

Sartre is riding a red bike in nothingness, atmo... If Sartre had a son he'd call him Atmo, atmo... If I had a red bike I'd paint it the color of existentialism, atmo...
join my salvation army now atmo.

[cadence90]

.... ..
.

[catulle]

.

[cadence90]

.... ..
.

[atmo]

I do not understand this "numbers game" at all.

I presume that guys like atmo, Sacha, etc. are building, at their capacity, +/- 6 or so frames a months, +/- 60/70 a year, so +/- 240 in 4 years. Is it so unreasonable to think that 240 other people have the same desire for one of these bikes? Hell, there are probably 240 on this board alone, so I think not; in fact I bet these wait lists will either go up or orders will not be taken.

agreed (http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=323107&postcount=33) atmo -

[terry b]

doesn't a deposit, to some extent, weed out window-shopping? asking for something upfront seems fair to me. a sign that you're seriously interested. (oops, sspielman was quicker on the draw. ;) )

It weeded me out with an interesting twist - I walked away from $1000 deposit because I was in no way, shape, or form going to give the remaining $1500 to the person who so blatantly violated a personal commitment.

Now this sad tale of woe refers to none of the esteemed builders whose company we enjoy here.

In good faith, I coughed up my grand with the promise of a 90 day turnaround on a custom frame. After 6 months of lies, lack of communication and general ill will, I decided to just take the bath and walk away. In my mind, I was mugged.

So I think deposits have an interesting role - they represent a customer commitment and nothing other than a commit on the behalf of the builder to produce a bike at some time in the future with no fixed schedule or cost. Now I know that there are honorable builders who will return your deposit if they are unable to comply (I had that very hypothetical conversation with one of the people in this thread) but the reality is, it's about how serious you as the consumer might be.

Of course, one could argue that it costs the builder nothing other than an email 5 years down the road to maintain a list without prepayment. And it might be a compelling argument.

Maharishi Mahesh Yogi was once asked why he charged people for his technique - his answer was simple - if it doesn't cost something, westerners don't appreciate it. People pay a deposit to show how much they value their spot.

[Climb01742]

i wonder how much of long waiting lists is caused by the "tulip" effect. ever-longer wait times create almost a bubble of (slightly) irrational exhuberance. i'm not saying that the bikes aren't worth waiting for but the wait creates an aura of self-generating desire.

interesting to note that someone like carl strong has a wait measured in weeks, not months, let alone years. skill-wise, carl sure is up there. but for whatever reason there's no carl-mania. this observation is not meant as an sort of judgement on anyone. just an interesting insight into what makes something/someone "hot".

[92degrees]

i wonder how much of long waiting lists is caused by the "tulip" effect. ever-longer wait times create almost a bubble of (slightly) irrational exhuberance. i'm not saying that the bikes aren't worth waiting for but the wait creates an aura of self-generating desire.

interesting to note that someone like carl strong has a wait measured in weeks, not months, let alone years. skill-wise, carl sure is up there. but for whatever reason there's no carl-mania. this observation is not meant as an sort of judgement on anyone. just an interesting insight into what makes something/someone "hot".


On other forums for other hobbies (some previously mentioned) it's possible to watch the effect of the popularity of a person's work on the forum translated quickly and directly into higher prices on the secondary market and longer wait times for future orders. There are 7K members here. If 60 read this thread and decide to pull the trigger on bike from a maker, the wait goes up another year. We kinda make our own market for these things.

[atmo]

i wonder how much of long waiting lists is caused by the "tulip" effect. ever-longer wait times create almost a bubble of (slightly) irrational exhuberance. i'm not saying that the bikes aren't worth waiting for but the wait creates an aura of self-generating desire.

interesting to note that someone like carl strong has a wait measured in weeks, not months, let alone years. skill-wise, carl sure is up there. but for whatever reason there's no carl-mania. this observation is not meant as an sort of judgement on anyone. just an interesting insight into what makes something/someone "hot".
the wait list thing isn't a thing.
the thing about the wait list not being a thing is the thing.
if you added up all the builders with wait lists that exceed
two years (as an example) there might be 12-20. if you
totaled their annual output, there might be 500-800 frames.
these numbers don't matter. what seems to matter is that
folks like making them matter. there are many more folks
that want than can make. the issue, if there is one, is that
folks want. mebbe focus on that. you're in marketing;
there is perception and there is reality. as we once discussed
wrt the new balance account, some product lines are easy
to prop simply because the goods are top shelf. the better
framebuilders who have lists are all good makers. but they
are also small producers. what else can they do except ask
folks to wait? uh - they use their tulips and say wait atmo!

If 60 read this thread and decide to pull the trigger on bike from a maker, the wait goes up another year. We kinda make our own market for these things.
gets it atmo.

[zeroking17]

Jean Baudrillard, one of his generation's most outspoken cultural critics, died on Tuesday. Here's a quote from one of his obits:

He [Baudrillard] was also a fierce critic of consumer culture in which people bought objects not out of genuine need but because of the status and meaning they bestowed.
http://tinyurl.com/2u6a35

If the shoe fits...

[atmo]

Jean Baudrillard, one of his generation's most outspoken cultural critics, died on Tuesday. Here's a quote from one of his obits:

He [Baudrillard] was also a fierce critic of consumer culture in which people bought objects not out of genuine need but because of the status and meaning they bestowed.


If the shoe fits...
i love the, er, logo on his shirt atmo...

[manet]

Jean Baudrillard, one of his generation's most outspoken cultural critics, died on Tuesday. Here's a quote from one of his obits:

He [Baudrillard] was also a fierce critic of consumer culture in which people bought objects not out of genuine need but because of the status and meaning they bestowed.
http://tinyurl.com/2u6a35

If the shoe fits...

smoking a fag no less, nice need

[Too Tall]

.
a framebuilder's product is their integrity.

if they compromise, their product will suffer.

if the product suffers you won't want it.



the only two options:

1) get a bike you don't want tomorrow

2) get the bike you do want in X number of months/years


how many products do you own with the builder's name on the side of it? that's their bond--respect the downtube.
.

With all due respect for any Manet-ish results :cool:

[atmo]

smoking a fag no less, nice need
don't go craigslist on him.
at least he has the new julio testo book on the shelf atmo.

[manet]

.

[zeroking17]

i love the, er, logo on his shirt atmo...


In certain circles it's called logocentrism.

p.s. hey, at least it's not screwed on.

[atmo]

In certain circles it's called logocentrism.

p.s. hey, at least it's not screwed on.
seriously, doesn't the pose and the apparel
contrast with his statement? i realize it could
possibly be a press pic, but still atmo.
thoughts?

[manet]

seriously, doesn't the pose and the apparel
contrast with his statement? i realize it could
possibly be a press pic, but still atmo.
thoughts?

faites comme je dis pas comme le fais je

[cadence90]

seriously, doesn't the pose and the apparel
contrast with his statement? i realize it could
possibly be a press pic, but still atmo.
thoughts?
He made nice photographs of America, imho.

[zeroking17]

seriously, doesn't the pose and the apparel
contrast with his statement? i realize it could
possibly be a press pic, but still atmo.
thoughts?


For me, it depends on how you're interpreting the meaning/status of the pose, the logo on the shirt (which I don't recognize), the brand of cigarette, the book-lined background, etc. And I don't ask this as a rhetorical question, but out of genuine interest in how you interpret these symbols.

There is no possible photo of him that would be devoid of meaning. Were he dressed in Carhartt overalls and a Mogen-David-stained t-shirt, smoking a Swisher Sweet and sitting in front of a '72 Pinto up on blocks behind his double-wide, this photo would be equally pregnant with potential signals of status.

How could his statement not contrast with his photo? That's the interesting question.

p.s. added: Who's Julio Testo?

[SimonC]

i wonder how much of long waiting lists is caused by the "tulip" effect. ever-longer wait times create almost a bubble of (slightly) irrational exhuberance. i'm not saying that the bikes aren't worth waiting for but the wait creates an aura of self-generating desire.

True. Jeff Jones (who doesn't seem to have got much of a mention recently) has a 5-year primary waiting list, then a secondary list of people waiting to get on to the primary list. For $15k bikes. I've been on that latter list for something approaching a year. The reason is predominantly because when it comes to getting bumped to the primary list, I can decide if I'm in a position to drop the cash. If he called tomorrow saying he'd build a bike for hard cash, I'd have to pass. If I had a year to find the money whilst he built it, it'd be a different matter.

I'm mulling over putting down a deposit for an atmo. Right now, I need a utility bike more than a go-fast, and I've not got the cash or the space for both. In 5 years when my time comes up I'll be in a larger apartment, with more money to burn (or possibly not - it's timescaled to be the year we have our first child!) and probably wanting something speedy. I'm happy to put down a deposit now because I'm confident I'll be in the right position when my number gets called, even if that's not the case right now.

[atmo]

For me, it depends on how you're interpreting the meaning/status of the pose, the logo on the shirt (which I don't recognize), the brand of cigarette, the book-lined background, etc. And I don't ask this as a rhetorical question, but out of genuine interest in how you interpret these symbols.

There is no possible photo of him that would be devoid of meaning. Were he dressed in Carhartt overalls and a Mogen-David-stained t-shirt, smoking a Swisher Sweet and sitting in front of a '72 Pinto up on blocks behind his double-wide, this photo would be equally pregnant with potential signals of status.

How could his statement not contrast with his photo? That's the interesting question.

p.s. added: Who's Julio Testo?

the gist of my earlier post had to do with the juxtaposition
(atmo) of his comment about objects bought for status versus
need with the fact that he appears to have given some serious
thought to his sartorial choices atmo. i do that, but i am vain.
and i do buy objects for more reasons than simply that i have
a need for them atmo. and i suspect archibald and jmewkill
do as well.

[obtuse]

the gist of my earlier post had to do with the juxtaposition
(atmo) of his comment about objects bought for status versus
need with the fact that he appears to have given some serious
thought to his sartorial choices atmo. i do that, but i am vain.
and i do buy objects for more reasons than simply that i have
a need for them atmo. and i suspect archibald and jmewkill
do as well.

i don't believe baudrillard puts himself (or anyone) outside of this box...that's what makes it so threatening and interesting. if you could escape from it, it wouldn't be much of social totality now would it?

fyi there's no way jmewkill "just does it" despite a billion dollar ad campaign aimed just at him.

obtuse

[catulle]

I need a bicycle for each leg, atmo...

[zeroking17]

the gist of my earlier post had to do with the juxtaposition
(atmo) of his comment about objects bought for status versus
need with the fact that he appears to have given some serious
thought to his sartorial choices atmo. i do that, but i am vain.
and i do buy objects for more reasons than simply that i have
a need for them atmo. and i suspect archibald and jmewkill
do as well.

Well, I guess you're gistified in pointing out a potential contradiction between his words and how he's dressed/posed in that photo. However, I'm not so sure that he's trying to dress to impress in that photo. Doesn't look that fancy or vain to me.

Can you describe how he'd need to be dressed so that you wouldn't sense a contradiction? So that you wouldn't feel that the photo belies his hypocrisy (which I think was your original impulse).

But regardless of his personal pose, the idea that many people buy objects for reasons of status and not need is so obviously true that it's sometimes forgotten.

I don't know, but it struck a chord with me in the context of this thread. It might be uncomfortable for us to think about this possibility with something like a bicycle that radiates an aura of relative innocence and downright goodness -- but hey, who of us doesn't lust after a handmade object from many of the artisans, toolmakers, and bike builders in this neighborhood?

However, at what point does a lust for a certain object -- based on it's perceived status -- become a type of hyper-consumptive, ruinous desire that Baudrillard is justly criticizing (regardless of his threads).

You mention Archibald. He knows the score:
http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=320824&postcount=1

[Ginger]

seriously, doesn't the pose and the apparel
contrast with his statement? i realize it could
possibly be a press pic, but still atmo.
thoughts?




Write what you know.

[big shanty]

I suspect you can get a RL shirt at TJ Maxx for $15-20, so I wouldn't read much into it. His wife probably bought it.

[atmo]

Well, I guess you're gistified in pointing out a potential contradiction between his words and how he's dressed/posed in that photo. However, I'm not so sure that he's trying to dress to impress in that photo. Doesn't look that fancy or vain to me.

Can you describe how he'd need to be dressed so that you wouldn't sense a contradiction? So that you wouldn't feel that the photo belies his hypocrisy (which I think was your original impulse).

But regardless of his personal pose, the idea that many people

buy objects for reasons of status and not need is so obviously true that it's sometimes forgotten.

I don't know, but it struck a chord with me in the context of this thread. It might be uncomfortable for us to think about this possibility with something like a bicycle that radiates an aura of relative innocence and downright goodness -- but hey, who of us doesn't lust after a handmade object from many of the artisans, toolmakers, and bike builders in this neighborhood?

However, at what point does a lust for a certain object -- based on it's perceived status -- become a type of hyper-consumptive, ruinous desire that Baudrillard is justly criticizing (regardless of his threads).

You mention Archibald. He knows the score:
http://forums.thepaceline.net/showpost.php?p=320824&postcount=1

this is unreal...
on a meassage board about fancy bicycles, there's not
a single post-er among us that buys out of need. we
each may attach a certain cache to a favorite brand,
but we buy out of want. i guess my original point in
replying to you (about the obit quote) is that i often
tire when folks (often from the intellectual elite) pass
sweeping judgements in the fashion that i feel is
represented by this:
He [Baudrillard] was also a fierce critic of consumer culture in
which people bought objects not out of genuine need but because
of the status and meaning they bestowed.
i am not that well educated, but i do think my elevator
goes to the top floor. his statement is one in which we,
as a demographic, are asked to justify our existence.
why do i/should i have to that? i am a middle class male
born into a consumer driven world. i feel capable of making
my own choices re what i can do with my money, and i don't
buy much. but often i buy more than i need, and much of
it makes me feel good atmo.

[cpg]

Rumor has it one can get a Serotta pretty darn quick. People could buy worse and plenty do. I'm just sayin'.

Curt

[fiamme red]

Rumor has it one can get a Serotta pretty darn quick. People could buy worse and plenty do. I'm just sayin'.

CurtSerotta? Do they have a website?

[zeroking17]

this is unreal...
on a meassage board about fancy bicycles, there's not
a single post-er among us that buys out of need. we
each may attach a certain cache to a favorite brand,
but we buy out of want. i guess my original point in
replying to you (about the obit quote) is that i often
tire when folks (often from the intellectual elite) pass
sweeping judgements in the fashion that i feel is
represented by this:
He [Baudrillard] was also a fierce critic of consumer culture in
which people bought objects not out of genuine need but because
of the status and meaning they bestowed.
i am not that well educated, but i do think my elevator
goes to the top floor. his statement is one in which we,
as a demographic, are asked to justify our existence.
why do i/should i have to that? i am a middle class male
born into a consumer driven world. i feel capable of making
my own choices re what i can do with my money, and i don't
buy much. but often i buy more than i need, and much of
it makes me feel good atmo.

I don't believe that you're being asked to justify your existence.

Apparently you don't question the underpinnings of a consumer-driven world, but are made very uncomfortable by those that do. I just thought it was an idea worth discussing. And no, I don't consider myself above the influence of the culture we live in, but I don't feel threatened by ideas that undermine it.

You have self-described your location as "out of the box." Sometimes we need to be prodded to move from an overly comfortable location. It doesn't hurt.

Look, merely pointing out that he was photgraphed wearing a shirt with a (to me) undercipherable logo should not by itself cause us to dismiss his ideas out of hand. That's a short-cut that leads nowhere.

[Big Dan]

If you can't wait buy off the rack.....
There has to be a frame out there that fits.

:p

[mosca]

He was also a fierce critic of consumer culture in which people bought objects not out of genuine need but because of the [B]status and meaning they bestowed.This is maybe (I hope) a poor choice of words by the writer of the obit - status and meaning being two completely different things (at least if you're living right!) If Baudrillard was merely suggesting that we closely examine our reasons for our posessions, I can only agree with that.

[Serpico]

the mental masturbation is getting intense when po-mo authors--who aren't relevant to anyone but 19 year-old college students--are being quoted.

what does derrida ride? does Ecole Normale Supérieure even have bike racks? what does post-structuralism say about fancy high-falutin' bikes?

summer is here soon... serenity now... serenity now...

[Serpico]

.
the best bike articles (http://www.elsewhere.org/pomo)

ps - if you're a smarty pants make sure to read the footnotes, very illuminating imo
.

[atmo]

I don't believe that you're being asked to justify your existence.

Apparently you don't question the underpinnings of a consumer-driven world, but are made very uncomfortable by those that do. I just thought it was an idea worth discussing. And no, I don't consider myself above the influence of the culture we live in, but I don't feel threatened by ideas that undermine it.

You have self-described your location as "out of the box." Sometimes we need to be prodded to move from an overly comfortable location. It doesn't hurt.

Look, merely pointing out that he was photgraphed wearing a shirt with a (to me) undercipherable logo should not by itself cause us to dismiss his ideas out of hand. That's a short-cut that leads nowhere.
this is a message board, not life. and i post mostly while
on the phone. for you to infer that i "don't question the
underpinnings of a consumer driven society, but are made
very uncomfortable by those that do...", makes me think
we need an annie hall marshall macluhan moment here.
"you know nothing about my work," he was heard saying.
i'm not threatened by any of this.

if in fact the guy was "also a fierce critic of consumer culture in
which people bought objects not out of genuine need but because
of the status and meaning they bestowed", then part of that means,
to me, that he is judging everyone that buys anything they don't
need, no matter what the reason. that is what i have a hard time
with atmo.

[stevep]

atmo,
i talked to the guy at the cadillac dealership...
your escalade has come in.
has 16 cup holders... dude a perfect go to the races vehicle!
trying to help.
s

[fiamme red]

the mental masturbation is getting intense when po-mo authors--who aren't relevant to anyone but 19 year-old college students--are being quoted.

what does derrida ride? does Ecole Normale Supérieure even have bike racks? what does post-structuralism say about fancy high-falutin' bikes?

summer is here soon... serenity now... serenity now...http://physics.nyu.edu/faculty/sokal/dawkins.html

The renowned Jean Baudrillard is only one of many to find chaos theory a useful tool for bamboozling readers. Once again, Sokal and Bricmont help us by analysing the tricks being played. The following sentence, "though constructed from scientific terminology, is meaningless from a scientific point of view":

"Perhaps history itself has to be regarded as a chaotic formation, in which acceleration puts an end to linearity and the turbulence created by acceleration deflects history definitively from its end, just as such turbulence distances effects from their causes."

I won't quote any more, for, as Sokal and Bricmont say, Baudrillard's text "continues in a gradual crescendo of nonsense". They again call attention to "the high density of scientific and pseudo-scientific terminology -- inserted in sentences that are, as far as we can make out, devoid of meaning". Their summing up of Baudrillard could stand for any of the authors criticized here and lionized throughout America:

"In summary, one finds in Baudrillard's works a profusion of scientific terms, used with total disregard for their meaning and, above all, in a context where they are manifestly irrelevant. Whether or not one interprets them as metaphors, it is hard to see what role they could play, except to give an appearance of profundity to trite observations about sociology or history. Moreover, the scientific terminology is mixed up with a non-scientific vocabulary that is employed with equal sloppiness. When all is said and done, one wonders what would be left of Baudrillard's thought if the verbal veneer covering it were stripped away."

[Serpico]

fiamme,

social text affair is classic, love that story

I like to pop balloons too--but only if they're filled with hot air

cheers

[zeroking17]

this is a message board, not life. and i post mostly while
on the phone. for you to infer that i "don't question the
underpinnings of a consumer driven society, but are made
very uncomfortable by those that do...", makes me think
we need an annie hall marshall macluhan moment here.
"you know nothing about my work," he was heard saying.
i'm not threatened by any of this.

if in fact the guy was "also a fierce critic of consumer culture in
which people bought objects not out of genuine need but because
of the status and meaning they bestowed", then part of that means,
to me, that he is judging everyone that buys anything they don't
need, no matter what the reason. that is what i have a hard time
with atmo.

That fact that this is a message board and not life is exactly why I occasionally introduce ideas that not everyone agrees with. All we can do here is discuss ideas -- there are no other material objects on internet forums. My guess is that in real life, we'd not be arguing at all.

Please don't take my questioning of your ideas as an attack on you personally. To be honest, you were the last person I had in mind when discussing the urge to splurge. You're right, I know nothing of your work; I only know what you write here on this forum.

And I didn't think that I was inferring anything about your ideas; I was merely taking your words at face value. (And the fact that I post mostly while balancing on one leg while ducking flaming arrows makes it possible that I misunderstood some of your comments.) If I missed your point, I'll try harder next time to "get it" before I respond.

Nevertheless, I believe that there's more than a grain of truth in a critique of a culture where consumption is king.

Here's a suggestion: If we want to continue discussing this, let's do it somewhere else. Maybe we could go see a movie and hash this out while standing on line. You can chose the film. I won't argue about that, I promise.

[zeroking17]

http://physics.nyu.edu/faculty/sokal/dawkins.html

The renowned Jean Baudrillard is only one of many to find chaos theory a useful tool for bamboozling readers. Once again, Sokal and Bricmont help us by analysing the tricks being played. The following sentence, "though constructed from scientific terminology, is meaningless from a scientific point of view":

"Perhaps history itself has to be regarded as a chaotic formation, in which acceleration puts an end to linearity and the turbulence created by acceleration deflects history definitively from its end, just as such turbulence distances effects from their causes."

I won't quote any more, for, as Sokal and Bricmont say, Baudrillard's text "continues in a gradual crescendo of nonsense". They again call attention to "the high density of scientific and pseudo-scientific terminology -- inserted in sentences that are, as far as we can make out, devoid of meaning". Their summing up of Baudrillard could stand for any of the authors criticized here and lionized throughout America:

"In summary, one finds in Baudrillard's works a profusion of scientific terms, used with total disregard for their meaning and, above all, in a context where they are manifestly irrelevant. Whether or not one interprets them as metaphors, it is hard to see what role they could play, except to give an appearance of profundity to trite observations about sociology or history. Moreover, the scientific terminology is mixed up with a non-scientific vocabulary that is employed with equal sloppiness. When all is said and done, one wonders what would be left of Baudrillard's thought if the verbal veneer covering it were stripped away."

That's one take. On the other hand, I prefer to read his works for myself and not depend on secondary sources to tell me what I just read.

[atmo]

That fact that this is a message board and not life is exactly why I occasionally introduce ideas that not everyone agrees with. All we can do here is discuss ideas -- there are no other material objects on internet forums. My guess is that in real life, we'd not be arguing at all.

Please don't take my questioning of your ideas as an attack on you personally. To be honest, you were the last person I had in mind when discussing the urge to splurge. You're right, I know nothing of your work; I only know what you write here on this forum.

And I didn't think that I was inferring anything about your ideas; I was merely taking your words at face value. (And the fact that I post mostly while balancing on one leg while ducking flaming arrows makes it possible that I misunderstood some of your comments.) If I missed your point, I'll try harder next time to "get it" before I respond.

Nevertheless, I believe that there's more than a grain of truth in a critique of a culture where consumption is king.

Here's a suggestion: If we want to continue discussing this, let's do it somewhere else. Maybe we could go see a movie and hash this out while standing on line. You can chose the film. I won't argue about that, I promise.

i love you man.
i propose that you, me, and jmewkill
push the boat out together atmo. the
rest of you can buy the book.

[zeroking17]

i love you man.
i propose that you, me, and jmewkill
push the boat out together atmo. the
rest of you can buy the book.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vj0w_YCBmwM



.

[cadence90]

i love you man.
i propose that you, me, and jmewkill
push the boat out together atmo. the
rest of you can buy the book.
Just make sure the rudder has a logoless King headset mounted for the christening shot.
They have far more cachet than those obiquitous populist branded ones one sees in every damned marina....

[atmo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vj0w_YCBmwM



.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipZDG6__Zfc

[catulle]

Here's a suggestion: If we want to continue discussing this, let's do it somewhere else. Maybe we could go see a movie and hash this out while standing on line. You can chose the film. I won't argue about that, I promise.


Who gets to choose the aformentioned, atmo...?

[obtuse]

Who gets to choose the aformentioned, atmo...?


a man of taste, charm, culture and refinement; jmewkill.

obtuse

[catulle]

a man of taste, charm, culture and refinement; jmewkill.

obtuse


Let me please introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste, huh...? Where did I hear that...?

[atmo]

Let me please introduce myself, a man of wealth and taste, huh...? Where did I hear that...?
jaggermeister atmo

[obtuse]

jaggermeister atmo


cough syrup imho.

obtuse

[zeroking17]

Who gets to choose the aformentioned, atmo...?

I've got some good buds in Panama.

[zeroking17]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipZDG6__Zfc


Let's be...

[manet]

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e61/easterncaster/awesome.jpg

[catulle]

Er, for the nice chewy stuff you need amigos on the Atlas Mountains, iirc, atmo...

[L84dinr]

cough syrup imho.

obtuse

Flaming Moe

[Jeff Weir]

And they lived happily ever after.......

[dreadpiratetim]

jaggermeister atmo

Jaggermeister... As a good friend says: get drunk and improve your net worth at the same time.

As for builders, I am blown away by the level of participation and discussion on this board. I feel privileged to get a glimpse of the philosophy that makes these guys tick. For those of you who can't quite handle a 4 or 5 year waitlist, check out some of the unsung heroes of our time.

+1 for Rich Gangl. Feel free to add your own... either unsung or up-and-coming. This board is the market. Do I wish I signed up for a RS or TK when I was making phone calls a few years ago? Yes. Do I still lust for one of their frames? Yes. Are there other builders who fly under the radar but meet the board's criteria for (i) ability to ride, (ii) ability to handle a torch, and (iii) ability to deliver a frame that will blow you away? Yes. So go find them... There is no try; there is only do or do not.

(Why is it a little green alien comes up with one of the best lines ever?)

[catulle]

The way to make the system perfect is to assure all over fifty that their frames will be delivered within 6 months from the moment the deposit is made. Period. Point one and only of the perfect handbuilt frame makers bill of rights and duties. This bill is humane, fair, wonderful and sexy. How 'bout it...???!!!

:banana:

[AgilisMerlin]

The way to make the system perfect is to assure all over fifty that their frames will be delivered within 6 months from the moment the deposit is made. Period. Point one and only of the perfect handbuilt frame makers bill of rights and duties. This bill is humane, fair, wonderful and sexy. How 'bout it...???!!!

:banana:

You have just opened the Pot Lid, stuck the spoon in, and now you are STIRRING, No ? :D



btw: that policy would drive everyones prices down. jmo



AMELRIn

[catulle]

Yes.

[michael white]

I support Catulle's modest proposal. This would especially make PR sense for the framebuilders, who would obviously begin racking up many more race victories than before (when less experienced riders were allowed to ride their bikes).

[catulle]

What MW said. +1. POTM

[atmo]

i see a niche market here -
framebuilding for the aarp generation atmo.
place an order, and get a year's worth of early
bird specials at any cracker barrel restaurant.

ps and free gum work too atmo.

[zeroking17]

i see a niche market here -
framebuilding for the aarp generation atmo.
place an order, and get a year's worth of early
bird specials at any cracker barrel restaurant.

ps and free gum work too atmo.


Can the customer specify braze-ons for a permanently blinking turn signal?

[atmo]

Can the customer specify braze-ons for a permanently blinking turn signal?
awesome.
i see a nahbs best of show concept buried in that suggestion
atmo. i'm all over it. team outfit - no lycra. just a bib for the drool.

[zeroking17]

awesome.
i see a nahbs best of show concept buried in that suggestion
atmo. i'm all over it. team outfit - no lycra. just a bib for the drool.


Sounds like a perfect frame for a drouleur.

[catulle]

:banana:

[rphetteplace]

I'll get railed horribly for this but if cutting down waitlists was even remotely a concern to certain highly regarded builders on the forum, maybe they would cut down on their surfing time atmo :)

[jeffg]

the mental masturbation is getting intense when po-mo authors--who aren't relevant to anyone but 19 year-old college students--are being quoted.

what does derrida ride? does Ecole Normale Supérieure even have bike racks? what does post-structuralism say about fancy high-falutin' bikes?

summer is here soon... serenity now... serenity now...

My guess is both ENS and UC Irvine have bike racks.

Ceci n'est pas un velo.

BTW, I prefer Luhmann or even Bourdieu for sociology. If you want pseudo-science, my favorite is economics, or especially "law & economics." I love prefessors at Yale and federal judges admitting their theories cannot provide a cogent argument against slavery. What's worse, someone in an ivory tower you think is irrelevant or someone on the federal bench who makes early 20th century French theorists who posited Germans had much longer intenstines and were thus more flatulent look like geniuses? ...

[Fixed]

I'll get railed horribly for this but if cutting down waitlists was even remotely a concern to certain highly regarded builders on the forum, maybe they would cut down on their surfing time atmo :)
i'd .rather them surf cos we get wonderful insight from these cats . imho
cheers :beer:

[sspielman]

Grant:

These are some amazing statements from a collector like yourself. Some would argue that one of the reasons ATMO went from 3 yrs to 5 was your posts about your bike....you "Helped" generate the demand by providing free advertising. :D

The demand that creates a 5 year waiting list comes from many places......From Very knowledgable riders like yourself & Obtuse, & Long term riders like myself that have wanted one for years & now has the money....to pure bike collectors who want bragging rights and everywhere in between. The Internet propagates and magnifies the attractivness and Cache" of these builders to the point where people who as little as 2 or 3 years ago never heard of ATMO are now on his waiting list. This forum, with it's collective knowledge, constantly "Promotes" certain brands which in and of itself "creates" demand. There are many lurkers that never post here but read every word.

As to supply.......would you have wanted your ATMO made by an apprentice?

Len

I'll tell you what creates demand....riders Like Len showing up at our local ride with his Sachs....anybody with any sense lusts for one....

[sspielman]

i see a niche market here -
framebuilding for the aarp generation atmo.
place an order, and get a year's worth of early
bird specials at any cracker barrel restaurant.

ps and free gum work too atmo.

Don't forget the Flomax....Body Geometry saddles aren't the entire answer....

[e-RICHIE]

i'm here having coffee and i'll tell ya one thing atmo -

the amount of time it takes to post here and anywhere
is far less than the time it would take to chat with my
secretary or show my apprentice how to do something
or blah blah blah. i work alone, and like others here,
my daily interactions takes place online, not with joe
in the next cubicle. if you think typing takes time, try
adding up the minutes one day when you are talking
with your work mates.

there - i feel better atmo.

[Fixed]

boss do you want cream and sugar in your coffee today ?
that is my first run

cheers

[William]

It is what it is.

Go with the flow, or flip the turn signal and head some where else. You're the driver man.






William

[Grant McLean]

i'm here having coffee and i'll tell ya one thing atmo -

the amount of time it takes to post here and anywhere
is far less than the time it would take to chat with my
secretary or show my apprentice how to do something
or blah blah blah. i work alone, and like others here,
my daily interactions takes place online, not with joe
in the next cubicle. if you think typing takes time, try
adding up the minutes one day when you are talking
with your work mates.

there - i feel better atmo.

not even going to mention the commute!

:)

-g

[OldDog]

Let's keep this post running and see who's here in five years....

[zap]

i'm here having coffee and i'll tell ya one thing atmo -

the amount of time it takes to post here and anywhere
is far less than the time it would take to chat with my
secretary or show my apprentice how to do something
or blah blah blah. i work alone, and like others here,
my daily interactions takes place online, not with joe
in the next cubicle. if you think typing takes time, try
adding up the minutes one day when you are talking
with your work mates.

there - i feel better atmo.

Or going outside for a smoke.......

[csm]

ok. I read them all.

[cadence90]

ok. I read them all.
I didn't.

I admit it; I just couldn't.

Just yesterday I got the Cliff's Notes for FrameBuilding Apprentices and now I need to order the Cliff's Notes for Custom FrameBuilder Wait Time Rant Threads???
No wonder Amazon loves me!

[Chad Engle]

Mr. Sachs:
Your secretary might like it if you took some time to talk with him/her. You might find out he/she is a really nice person.

just a thought from a lonely secretary


There is no reason for you to defend yourself, here or anywhere else.

Thanks for continuing to post here.