Considering Carbon Frames

[2000m2]

I am thinking it might be time to give a carbon frame a try. I only really started riding road bikes when I started racing a little over 20 yrs ago and at the time titanium was the material to have. Some tubing was carbon, but not the majority of the frame. Prior to that, it was all mountain bikes that I rode & raced. I was never super fast, good at hanging with the pack and then a decent sprinter. I don't race anymore, just casual rides & group rides, but I'm liking some of these new carbon frames I keep seeing. In the past, I've been on aluminum, titanium and steel frames (currently have 2 of these). Titanium was very nice, super smooth, but I am liking steel more nowadays. Additionally, my riding experience has always been with mechanical shifting and rim brakes.

On the carbon frame front, I've been looking at Basso, Time, Look and Officine Mattio. At present, Basso is looking like the front runner for cost considerations and quality. I like that they are actually made in Italy too.

Anyway, figured I'd get some thoughts on carbon frames to consider, experience with any above, etc. Oh, and I really prefer used as I intend to ride these things, so when they're already a little nicked up, makes me feel better :)

[joevers]

Bigger brands spend far more time and money on R&D for their frames, and straight up it means their bikes are often just better. And Taiwan has been making the best carbon frames for decades now, so don't worry about that.

Going new or as new as possible with carbon is usually best. In the last few years warranties seem to have gotten better, and things like tire clearance and comfort on road bikes have improved a lot. There's a lot more variety of non-race oriented road bikes like the Specialized Aethos or the BMC Road Machine or the Cannondale Synapse or something from just about every other large brand.

FWIW, I've had several steel bikes built in the states, and a few high end carbon frames made in Taiwan. I've liked them just about equally. For road I don't mind either material, for mtb I like carbon a lot more. There's (as usual) a lot more to consider than material. There's not a night and day difference between high end steel and carbon road bikes, but some are sure noticeable. Weight is the big one, and carbon frames tend to steer, handle, and sprint a lot more securely because they're often just much stiffer. Comfort is not that different between good carbon and good steel bikes in my experience. I think they both can make great bikes, and I think you should think about what exactly you're hoping to get or improve with a new bike.

[Coffee Rider]

On the carbon frame front, I've been looking at Basso, Time, Look and Officine Mattio. At present, Basso is looking like the front runner for cost considerations and quality. I like that they are actually made in Italy too.
:)

I'd vote for Basso or OM. As I understand it, both of them are made in Italy. OM has some less expensive models, so pricing may be closer. Basso is great since the company has been around a long time.

You will ultimately be happy with whatever choice you make since you'll end up with a great bike.

[dancinkozmo]

according to hambini Time is the gold standard for crabon frames

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwiVlLfqG1M&list=PLWIlKhZFkHqNn_DgG8LrtxQJCioXmC1rG&index=17&ab_channel=Hambini

[Charles M]

This could be a "NAME EVERY CARBON FRAME" thread...

There are loads available and it's probably harder to find a bad bike than a good one if you shop around and pay attention...

Interesting ask on Officine Mattio...
I Had their first stock geometry bike (literally serial number 1):

https://pezcyclingnews.com/technspec/officine-mattio-om1-disc-bike-review-is-mattio-work-shop-saving-italian-cycling/

https://pezcyclingnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/2020-officine-mattio-om1-1.jpg


They're a great company and doing some nice things...

I have their newest model Lemma in hand now as well.

It's a road bike but fit's Pirelli's 30 section Tubeless tires on OM's own rims (with Carbon-Ti Hubs) and the thing just rolls like you're on glass... But it has great power transfer and the handling is stable/responsive/predictable.

It's more money than Basso, but this is one of the smoothest light-carbon bikes I've ever been on (also using house wheels and standard 25 section pirelli).


I like Basso too. I was in their finishing shop a couple years ago. I know Ale and their marketing head and while they dont make a million models, they put a lot of effort into developing their models well.

I've not paid as much attention to Look and Time over the past couple of years...


ALL THAT SAID... to give you any relevant comment beyond just naming bikes, you might give us a little more to work with rather than just rambling.

What size are you??

[buddybikes]

Take a look at Alchemy they've won number of awards. Made in CO, and get custom if you need

I will be getting my e-Ronin from them in about 3-4 weeks.

[2000m2]

Going new or as new as possible with carbon is usually best. In the last few years warranties seem to have gotten better, and things like tire clearance and comfort on road bikes have improved a lot. There's a lot more variety of non-race oriented road bikes like the Specialized Aethos or the BMC Road Machine or the Cannondale Synapse or something from just about every other large brand.


Thanks, this is helpful. I wasn't sure how much "newness" matters with carbon frames beyond, of course, the technology improving. The BMC's look very nice too. I just don't yet know a whole lot about them. I first started looking at them when I came across their URS frames, but only interested in road frames now.




ALL THAT SAID... to give you any relevant comment beyond just naming bikes, you might give us a little more to work with rather than just rambling.

What size are you??

I read your article yesterday, very cool. That Lemma sounds amazing. As gorgeous & impressive as they are, the more I play with OM's configurator online, the more I think they're out of my price range. Would be nice to keep it under $5k. I generally ride a 55cm to 56cm frame, ~75cm saddle height. I'm 5'11" and ~165 lbs. I've lost like 10 lbs over the past year riding and swimming 4 - 7 days/week. When I was racing I was more like ~155 lbs.

Take a look at Alchemy they've won number of awards. Made in CO, and get custom if you need

I will be getting my e-Ronin from them in about 3-4 weeks.

Wow, very nice! I wasn't familiar with them, thanks for pointing them out.

[Ozz]

This is a heck of a deal for sale in the classifieds, and is a mostly carbon bike: Seven Cycles 622 sl 55cm with 10spd Campagnolo build (https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=267266)

$2500 for a bike, that looks be be about your size, it might be a way to try out carbon on a budget.

I was in your shoes (owning only steel and Ti) and decided to try carbon....sort of went mostly there with a Seven 622 SLX I picked up last fall from the classifieds. Similar to one for sale now, but with a carbon downtube...I could not be happier with it.

One caveat....with lots of carbon bits, you might want to invest in a torque wrench. ;)

[pdmtong]

...

[Tickdoc]

Heck yeah, go there!

I haven’t been on all carbon myself since 2014? It’s not the carbon that scares me, it’s the bottom bracket junction.

Got one ready to be built tho, and it’s bb is threadedcool:

All good choices from what you listed. I like the alchemy suggestion as well.

Keep us posted!

[StanleySteamer]

Check out Sarto bikes as well.

[Velocipede]

Another to look at is Deda or Grandis. Both make custom carbon in Italy. I have a thread going about a new frame I just got in from Deda for a client.

https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=267077

[BlueHampsten]

I have a love/hate relationship with the newer carbon frames. I love everything about carbon frames except those with press in bottom brackets. The two carbon frames that I have owned with press in bottom brackets creaked like crazy. I sold one of the frames and kept my Specialized Tarmac S-Works.

I solved the creaky bottom bracket on the Tarmac by having the shop install a Praxis Works sleeved bottom bracket. I have ridden the frame for three years since the installation and no more creaking - Yeah.

I understand that some of the newer carbon frames now come with screw in out board bottom brackets in British and Italian threads which reportedly work well. In addition, I have seen a lot of positive comments about the T47 screw in bottom bracket.

Look forward to seeing what is your final decision!

Ride safe and stay healthy.

[avalonracing]

I started racing a little over 20 yrs ago and at the time titanium was the material to have.

As far as I'm concerned, it still is.

[charliedid]

I have an Emonda with a press fit BB and it's never made a peep, works as intended.

[veloduffer]

I would recommend Parlee, still my favorite carbon bike. If you search on the forum, there's a lot of admirers. The older Z frames (rim brake) were light, lively and great all-day rides. You can get them on used for a fraction new. I might be selling my Z1 (Med-Large geo) as I need to pare down

[2000m2]

according to hambini Time is the gold standard for crabon frames


Infectious enthusiasm there, he is definitely in love with that frame!

Check out Sarto bikes as well.

Thanks, will do.

Another to look at is Deda or Grandis. Both make custom carbon in Italy. I have a thread going about a new frame I just got in from Deda for a client.

https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=267077

That Deda is incredible in your post, wow!

I have a love/hate relationship with the newer carbon frames. I love everything about carbon frames except those with press in bottom brackets. The two carbon frames that I have owned with press in bottom brackets creaked like crazy. I sold one of the frames and kept my Specialized Tarmac S-Works.

I solved the creaky bottom bracket on the Tarmac by having the shop install a Praxis Works sleeved bottom bracket. I have ridden the frame for three years since the installation and no more creaking - Yeah.

I understand that some of the newer carbon frames now come with screw in out board bottom brackets in British and Italian threads which reportedly work well. In addition, I have seen a lot of positive comments about the T47 screw in bottom bracket.

Look forward to seeing what is your final decision!

Ride safe and stay healthy.

Good to know about the bottom brackets, much appreciated.

As far as I'm concerned, it still is.

Fair point on the titanium.

I would recommend Parlee, still my favorite carbon bike. If you search on the forum, there's a lot of admirers. The older Z frames (rim brake) were light, lively and great all-day rides. You can get them on used for a fraction new. I might be selling my Z1 (Med-Large geo) as I need to pare down

Very nice, looks like they're made in the U.S. too.

[2000m2]

This is a heck of a deal for sale in the classifieds, and is a mostly carbon bike: Seven Cycles 622 sl 55cm with 10spd Campagnolo build (https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=267266)

$2500 for a bike, that looks be be about your size, it might be a way to try out carbon on a budget.

I was in your shoes (owning only steel and Ti) and decided to try carbon....sort of went mostly there with a Seven 622 SLX I picked up last fall from the classifieds. Similar to one for sale now, but with a carbon downtube...I could not be happier with it.

One caveat....with lots of carbon bits, you might want to invest in a torque wrench. ;)

Agree, very nice listing there and thanks for the heads up on the torque wrench. I have one for use on my car, but waaaay too bike for anything bike related. :)

[fredd]

Press fits are fine as long as quality control is good. Superior to threaded, even, according to Luescher. For Specializeds and Treks, quality control may not be so good, but it won't be a problem with Times, and definitely is not supposed to be a problem with the made in Italy frames. If the price is right, and the bike fits you, I see little reason to go for anything other than a Time, except maybe a cool paintjob. I've seen nothing but praise about Times, from people who ride them, as well as Hambini and Luescher.

[.RJ]

I am probably the odd one out here, but, I am absolutely done with plastic frames. I've had 3 or 4 of them crack and need repair that were not a result of crash damage. One of them was a mountain bike that spare parts were no longer available from the manufacturer, and they werent able to offer a new frame - so much for lifetime warranty - only a discount on a new frame or bike that amounted to the same bro deal I got from the shop already. Aside from the cracks, the manufacturing tolerances are often pretty poor and I've ridden more carbon frames that ride way, way, too stiff than ones that ride nice.

I'm slowly cycling my previously plastic bikes out with steel and aluminum as they get replaced.

Press fits are fine as long as quality control is good. Superior to threaded, even, according to Luescher. For Specializeds and Treks, quality control may not be so good

FWIW, I've had 4 or 5 specialized road frames with BB30 - they've all been the aluminum shell BB30, not their carbon shell OSBB - and they've been solid, getting several years out of a set of bearings, many of them ridden in some pretty **** weather. A few of them were eventually switched over to a wheels mfg thread-together BB, but I've got a 2014 Crux frame that only got its 2nd set of bearings last year. But I'm glad they are going away.

[fredd]

FWIW, I've had 4 or 5 specialized road frames with BB30 - they've all been the aluminum shell BB30, not their carbon shell OSBB - and they've been solid, getting several years out of a set of bearings, many of them ridden in some pretty **** weather. A few of them were eventually switched over to a wheels mfg thread-together BB, but I've got a 2014 Crux frame that only got its 2nd set of bearings last year. But I'm glad they are going away.

Aluminum shells are a lot simpler to get right than the carbon ones are. With aluminum its just a matter of machining them with low enough tolerances. With carbon, the shell will change shape as it cures, meaning you have to predict the deformation ahead of time, and any manufacturing error will be amplified.

[.RJ]

Aluminum shells are a lot simpler to get right than the carbon ones are. With aluminum its just a matter of machining them with low enough tolerances. With carbon, the shell will change shape as it cures, meaning you have to predict the deformation ahead of time, and any manufacturing error will be amplified.

those are machined afterwards as well. but you're right, its not as easy, and most brands or factories do not invest in better fixtures or QC. Its frustrating as hell to take a new frame out of the box and have to chase and face every interface on the bike.

[soulspinner]

I would recommend Parlee, still my favorite carbon bike. If you search on the forum, there's a lot of admirers. The older Z frames (rim brake) were light, lively and great all-day rides. You can get them on used for a fraction new. I might be selling my Z1 (Med-Large geo) as I need to pare down

This seems like a great suggestion.

[zennmotion]

Shameless pitch for this

https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=256310&highlight=cyfac+cadence

That's ticking the boxes in this thread, threaded BB, 55cm, light but not too light, stellar smallish maker with a long history made in France, carbon on a budget... And it's in the Bay Area so the OP could go for a test ride with an Ultegra build before I tear it down for Frame/Fork sale.

[2000m2]

Shameless pitch for this

https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=256310&highlight=cyfac+cadence

That's ticking the boxes in this thread, threaded BB, 55cm, light but not too light, stellar smallish maker with a long history made in France, carbon on a budget... And it's in the Bay Area so the OP could go for a test ride with an Ultegra build before I tear it down for Frame/Fork sale.

Cool, when can I visit?

[zennmotion]

Cool, when can I visit?

PM me with your email address and we can discuss if you're interested
Look for a PM in your forum messages

[thehighend]

I have a love/hate relationship with the newer carbon frames. I love everything about carbon frames except those with press in bottom brackets. The two carbon frames that I have owned with press in bottom brackets creaked like crazy. I sold one of the frames and kept my Specialized Tarmac S-Works.

I solved the creaky bottom bracket on the Tarmac by having the shop install a Praxis Works sleeved bottom bracket. I have ridden the frame for three years since the installation and no more creaking - Yeah.

I understand that some of the newer carbon frames now come with screw in out board bottom brackets in British and Italian threads which reportedly work well. In addition, I have seen a lot of positive comments about the T47 screw in bottom bracket.

I have had good luck with the PF30 type shells using PF30 BBs that thread together (from opposite sides).

[thehighend]

I would recommend Parlee, still my favorite carbon bike. If you search on the forum, there's a lot of admirers. The older Z frames (rim brake) were light, lively and great all-day rides. You can get them on used for a fraction new. I might be selling my Z1 (Med-Large geo) as I need to pare down

Even though metal frames are my fav's I agree that Parlee frames are really, really nice.

[flying]

It is a funny thing that folks rarely mention about carbon
I am not sure if it is because most have only ever ridden one or the other but...

IMHO...There is a BIG difference between carbon tube & lug bikes & carbon Monocoque frames

IMO the latter rides like wood....dead...wood :)

On the other hand the carbon Tube & carbon Lug carbon bikes can be quite nice,,, Bikes like Look 585, Colnago Cxx, Parlee Z1, etc etc
although they are getting tougher to find & I have since switched off carbon completely ;)

Anyway just something to keep in mind if testing is possible for you.

Good Luck

[Bob Ross]

IMHO...There is a BIG difference between carbon tube & lug bikes & carbon Monocoque frames

I suspect -- (not that I'm accusing you of this) -- that a lot of bicycle aficianados use the term "monocoque" to refer to any carbon frame that does not have overt, traditional-style, external lugs.

Frankly, it wouldn't surprise me to learn that certain carbon bike manufacturers use the term "monocoque" to refer to any carbon frame that does not have overt, traditional-style, external lugs!

And tbh *I* might be using the term "monocoque" incorrectly.

But for the sake of clarity...could you mention some of the carbon frames that in your experience "ride like wood"?

I'm happy to start: the original Kestrel Talon rode like wood. Dead wood. And not very well glued-together dead wood, if my one experience on those bikes was any indication of how they all performed.

I have no idea whether a Kestrel Talon is considered a "monocoque" frame...but I'm pretty sure it is made of of several individual carbon sub-systems glued together with internal lugs, which is not what I think "monocoque" means.

[Velocipede]

I suspect -- (not that I'm accusing you of this) -- that a lot of bicycle aficianados use the term "monocoque" to refer to any carbon frame that does not have overt, traditional-style, external lugs.

Frankly, it wouldn't surprise me to learn that certain carbon bike manufacturers use the term "monocoque" to refer to any carbon frame that does not have overt, traditional-style, external lugs!

And tbh *I* might be using the term "monocoque" incorrectly.

But for the sake of clarity...could you mention some of the carbon frames that in your experience "ride like wood"?

I'm happy to start: the original Kestrel Talon rode like wood. Dead wood. And not very well glued-together dead wood, if my one experience on those bikes was any indication of how they all performed.

I have no idea whether a Kestrel Talon is considered a "monocoque" frame...but I'm pretty sure it is made of of several individual carbon sub-systems glued together with internal lugs, which is not what I think "monocoque" means.

A Talon was not a monocoque frame. The front (headtube, toptube, downtube and part of the seattube were one piece (monocoque) and the rear was one piece and then bonded together. They did it so they didn't have to make a bunch of molds as the seat/chain stays were one mold for the size run and the front mold changed.

True monocoque molds are expensive. I was involved and there when the 500EMS molds were made in Grand Rapids, Michigan. The mold for the 49cm 500EMS was almost $200k once you all the materials, machining and polishing time, the temp lines and everything else. They are super expensive.

Trek OCLV frames looked like a monocoque frame but they weren't. They were tube and lugs that were bonded together. They didn't require bladders to compress the lugs like a Parlee Z1 did. They had male fittings for female tubes. Very easy to make and much faster to make than a Kestrel or a Parlee.

I've ridden a ton of different frames over th years. Everything from a TVT, Kestrel 200 Sci/EMS, 300EMS, 500 Sci/EMS, Talon, Parlee Z1, Z3, Colnago C50, Time Equipe HM (road and tri), VXRS, Edge, ZXRS, Guru Photon SL, Photon V5, Cervelos and a bunch of others. They all feel different to a point. In the end the fit and build is what I notice most. If they aren't built right or the geometry is off, it throws everything off for me. I desperately wanted to love the C50 I got. I hated it tho. I put a smidge over 100 miles on it cause it just didn't feel right. That rode as some say, had a dead feel. I've only felt that a few times.

It really comes down to your fit, the geometry and the build. That Deda I am building up, it's lightyears beyond what the owner has currently - 1994 Merlin Extralight with Time fork, Campagnolo Potenza and Shamal Ultra wheels. A flexy 3TTT 26.0mm bar and 120mm Ibis titanium stem. He's getting a Super Record 12 Disc kit and some special Campy wheels. A 31.8mm Deda bar and Superbox stem. Wildly different parts. Much much stiffer front end and cockpit. Stiffer wheels. It's 27 years newer and the tech on it is beyond what he can imagine. That alone will change his perspective on his rides.

[Charles M]

Thanks, this is helpful. I wasn't sure how much "newness" matters with carbon frames beyond, of course, the technology improving. The BMC's look very nice too. I just don't yet know a whole lot about them. I first started looking at them when I came across their URS frames, but only interested in road frames now.



I read your article yesterday, very cool. That Lemma sounds amazing. As gorgeous & impressive as they are, the more I play with OM's configurator online, the more I think they're out of my price range. Would be nice to keep it under $5k. I generally ride a 55cm to 56cm frame, ~75cm saddle height. I'm 5'11" and ~165 lbs. I've lost like 10 lbs over the past year riding and swimming 4 - 7 days/week. When I was racing I was more like ~155 lbs.



Wow, very nice! I wasn't familiar with them, thanks for pointing them out.

Want a VERY custom finish on a very good quality Carbon bike and have PRICE as a high concern... GO TO SQUAD CYCLES (https://www.squadcycles.com/)

They're in Montreal and are knocking out absolutely beautiful bikes at a very good number...


https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0335/1527/4376/files/Force_Ferrari_480x480.png?v=1605366305
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0335/1527/4376/files/Force_R-8000_w_Fulcrum_Wind_40_480x480.png?v=1605366305

[texbike]

Shameless pitch for this

https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=256310&highlight=cyfac+cadence

That's ticking the boxes in this thread, threaded BB, 55cm, light but not too light, stellar smallish maker with a long history made in France, carbon on a budget... And it's in the Bay Area so the OP could go for a test ride with an Ultegra build before I tear it down for Frame/Fork sale.

If it fits, this will be tough to beat for the price!

Texbike

[flying]

I suspect -- (not that I'm accusing you of this) -- that a lot of bicycle aficianados use the term "monocoque" to refer to any carbon frame that does not have overt, traditional-style, external lugs.

Frankly, it wouldn't surprise me to learn that certain carbon bike manufacturers use the term "monocoque" to refer to any carbon frame that does not have overt, traditional-style, external lugs!

And tbh *I* might be using the term "monocoque" incorrectly.

But for the sake of clarity...could you mention some of the carbon frames that in your experience "ride like wood"?

I'm happy to start: the original Kestrel Talon rode like wood. Dead wood. And not very well glued-together dead wood, if my one experience on those bikes was any indication of how they all performed.

I have no idea whether a Kestrel Talon is considered a "monocoque" frame...but I'm pretty sure it is made of of several individual carbon sub-systems glued together with internal lugs, which is not what I think "monocoque" means.


Yes for myself "monocoque" means the type of frame that is basically made in a mold & the intersections of the tubes are basically included in lay up of the whole.
I am not even sure they are all true monocoque?

But, Meaning they are not separate & true to the definition (I think ;)) Of "monocoque" meaning....
it would be considered without chassis...& the whole shell alone provides the rigidity a tube & lug bike gets from its joints but ultimately also losing the liveliness?

As for the bikes I tried they were few...Like you a Kestrel but I am not sure of model as it was very early & of course some early Treks frames etc

I had no reason to think other brands of this would be different but perhaps they have changed? But when ever I saw one I would tap it & hear that same sound ;)
& just assume they were all the same...maybe I was wrong

When thinking about them I can only imagine they could be tuned stiffer etc but I am not sure they could ever be designed to be compliant/lively
& is what I believe I felt from something like my old 585

But anyway for the OP I would sure try if possible to ride both types.

In fact that inexpensive Cyfac that was mentioned (https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=256310&highlight=cyfac+cadence)
may be quite a good example of tube & lug carbon :)

[2000m2]

I rode a few carbon bikes. Tough to get ones hands on anything new right now. I found this Basso Diamante w/ Ultegra on eBayUK. I ended up buying it without the wheels as I had a set. Seller said he only used it on a trainer over the winter and it definitely looks new. I'm amazed. In the few spots I thought I saw scratches, run my finger over it and it's just a grease smudge. It took about 2 weeks to arrive. I did some fiddling to get things sorted last night on rollers and got out on a short 15 mile loop for further refining this afternoon. Smoooooth ride. Also, still feeling a little fatigued from 2nd Covid vaccine, so didn’t want to push it too much. Looking forward to getting some more miles on this ride!

[Louis]

Very nice, looks like they're made in the U.S. too.

I believe the Z5 was imported.

[zmalwo]

Get a TCR and call it a day. Despite being the cheapest, Giant makes the best carbon bikes. TCRs are the lightest and stiffest bikes and cost almost half of what the other brands charges. Many brands manufacture their frames through Giant and spends absurd amount of money on advertisement. Giant has to do none of them and they sell the most bikes in the world so they make money through volume. That's how they keep their price so low yet so good. Giant also doesn't care about how their bikes look, so TCR takes the straightest, most efficient shapes possible unlike some brand (yeah you Pinarello) who sacrifice lots of practicality for the look.
If you believe something is made in Italy, look deeper. Colnago advertise their C64 as made in Italy but in reality the tubes and lugs are entirely made in Taiwan. The only parts that happen in Italy are the gluing process and the painting process. Pinarello is even more of a scumbag. Their bikes are entirely molded in Taiwan (in a factory that makes carbon table tennis rackets), then shipped to Italy to be painted and put on a sticker that says "made in Italy".
I suggest everyone to drop this "made in East Asia" bias because Taiwan's nominal GDP is about the same as Italy, and Taiwanese people pay far more attention to details than the westerners so inevitably their bikes are more well made. Less defects like wrinkles, voids and such.
I also suggest you to look into Yonex bikes. These bikes are the only bikes in the world that are entirely made in Japan. They are expensive ($4500 for their climbing model and $7000 for their aero model) but their quality is unmatched. Their climbing model weighs 650 grams, yet nothing is compromised. Their aero model is even more impressive, weighing only 830 grams despite being an aero bike.

[fogrider]

Congrats! on your second covid shot and the bike...I have steel bikes, aluminum bikes, ti bike...but nothing can get down to the weight of carbon. I'll be the first to say a great bike is not just about weight. I hope you're enjoying the ride of the Basso! Cheers.

I rode a few carbon bikes. Tough to get ones hands on anything new right now. I found this Basso Diamante w/ Ultegra on eBayUK. I ended up buying it without the wheels as I had a set. Seller said he only used it on a trainer over the winter and it definitely looks new. I'm amazed. In the few spots I thought I saw scratches, run my finger over it and it's just a grease smudge. It took about 2 weeks to arrive. I did some fiddling to get things sorted last night on rollers and got out on a short 15 mile loop for further refining this afternoon. Smoooooth ride. Also, still feeling a little fatigued from 2nd Covid vaccine, so didn’t want to push it too much. Looking forward to getting some more miles on this ride!

[soupless]

...

[2000m2]

I believe the Z5 was imported.

Yes, on further investigation, it seems only the Z-Zero is still made in the U.S. Please correct if I am misinformed about that too.

Get a TCR and call it a day. Despite being the cheapest, Giant makes the best carbon bikes. TCRs are the lightest and stiffest bikes and cost almost half of what the other brands charges...
...I also suggest you to look into Yonex bikes.

I can't say I know a whole lot about Giant, but definitely see a lot of them out & about. Those Yonex look interesting. Fun to learn about new brands.

Congrats! on your second covid shot and the bike...I have steel bikes, aluminum bikes, ti bike...but nothing can get down to the weight of carbon. I'll be the first to say a great bike is not just about weight. I hope you're enjoying the ride of the Basso! Cheers.

Thank you! Agree, if weight were my only criteria, there are other carbon frames that come in ahead.

There is always plenty to learn and appreciated everyone commenting here.

[StanleySteamer]

Sarto bikes are 100% made in Italy. Check them out on Pezcycling News.

[tylercheung]

The biggest question for me, as someone above mentioned - how do you keep abreast of technical development? It seems more complicated than metalwork; and requires a lot of reading into chemical engineering and processes thereof. Every company seems to have their secret sauce, but who puts the most R&D into their product?

It seems Giant/Merida makes the most bikes by volume, and Taiwan has a good culture/ecosystem of this sort of technical development...it seems they'd have a leg up on everyone else if you believe this new "aggregation theory" and Clayton Christensen disruption theory. For the outsourcers, it seems QC is the big variable between "fabless design company -> bike fabber" model (maybe they have a way to go before they can make it work as smoothly as the semiconductor industry) but they can leverage the expertise of the Giants of the world?

Smaller firms like Time, Officina, Sarto, Parlee, maybe Allied - all get good reviews, but how competitive can they be with the amount of money they have to invest/reinvest into R&D? How can you really evaluate or tell...other than to trust a reviewer's subjective "butt sensor" impressions?

same thing with forks...Something like Mike Lopez's test, was it 10 or 15 years ago, where they actually twisted a bunch of forks until their breaking point and measured the loads required is useful, and something that is done regularly with seat posts, handlebars, stems etc would be useful, but that seems expensive to do, and I don't see publications doing it regularly.

[Ozz]

...
I also suggest you to look into Yonex bikes. These bikes are the only bikes in the world that are entirely made in Japan....
Yonex makes really nice tennis rackets and golf clubs too.....;)

[denvervig]

Yonex makes really nice tennis rackets and golf clubs too.....;)

Don't forget Badminton racquets!

[benb]

I would totally buy a Giant if I was looking and saw one that fit. I don't really buy into the Euro brands being any better, and 2 of my Carbon bikes were bought at dealers that tried pretty hard to push me onto the Euro brands and really talked down what I bought. I would never want to buy a Euro brand that was made in Taiwan and then painted in Europe and marked way up. I'm not at all convinced that American or Europeans are more knowledgeable at building these bikes than the Taiwanese.

I have had 3 Carbon bikes:

2004 Giant TCR Composite
2011 BH G5
2016 Trek Domane 5-series (made by Giant?)

They have all been great, all have had their quirks, all fast. For some reason they have also never necessarily inspired huge amounts of passion too.

My BH & the Trek have had press fit BBs and neither gave me any trouble at all. I have had many more screw in BBs (Octalink) fail, creak, or otherwise give me trouble. The Giant was a long time ago and wasn't quite stiff enough for me. It would wind up in hard cornering and definitely wasn't as confidence inspiring. The BH and the Trek were both absolute scalpels, incredible descending bikes, awesome fork & front end stiffness in really hard/aggressive riding. (Both have tapered forks).

I would be inclined to say get something that actually has Carbon specific features, whether that's aero, trickery on the comfort side, etc..

Beware proprietary features that could become weak points or maintenance issues... IME those are the biggest gotchas with carbon frames. My BH and my Trek have/had proprietary seat masts. The one on the BH absolutely sucked. The Trek one is 100x better, but it is still not as good as a Thomson or something, and has it's own quirks but can't be swapped out.

Look for the price:performance sweet spot. When I bought my Trek frame the 5-series frame was $2000 and the 6-series frame was closer to $3000 and was dimensionally identical but 50g lighter and supposedly stiffer and more compliant at the same time. The guys at the shop that sold it to me said no one in the shop would be able to tell them apart in a blind test, easy decision to save the money there.

[Johnnysmooth]

First carbon was a used Colnago C40. Nice bike, handled well but not very stiff and had corrosion issues with Al cable guides.
Moved to Fondriest - sweet Italian made carbon bike that was a rocket. However, within first yr some hairline cracks started appearing - took back to LBS and traded it in for a Look 595.
Look 595 was a great bike, incredibly stiff (at least for this light 158lb racer) and quite nimble. Although for some nimble means twitchy - you really do need to pay attention - for me it was a great racing stead (not crits, more circuit races).

Diagnosed with an incurable illness decided I wanted a carbon bike that was great riding, but also a great piece of art and in 2015 took possession of a Colnago C60 that I bought while I lived in Austria from Bellati The bike is a masterpiece and should a time come when disease prevents me from riding - I'll hang that C60 on the wall and remember the fond memories I have had riding my bike.

Advice to OP:
Each of my carbon bikes rode differently. Strongly encourage you to go ride a few to determine what you like and don't like. If you can, go to good LBS and use same set of wheels across all bikes you test.

Lastly, while I love my C60, the Czech company Festka was just getting started and their frames just started showing up in Vienna prior to my leaving in mid 2015. They really make an exceptional bike, albeit expensive, and their paint work is second to none. They would be a strong contender if I was looking today

https://festka.com/2021-models

[Louis]

In a related matter, does anyone here know how to read Parlee serial numbers?

I have a Z? purchased a while ago, but unfortunately I don't remember the details of what model it is.

Thanks