Is it important that a framebuilder ride? [Archive]

Tom Kellogg

03-04-2007, 02:28 PM

Almost all frame builders at least USED to ride a lot. I would venture to say that a lot of riding is a requirement of a good frame builder. However, riding in the present is not. Understanding how the bicycle as a unified structure works, doesn�t work, might work ... comes from lots of riding. But once someone has a good understanding of how changes in frame design can effect how a bike works in the real world, then lots of miles (or Kilometers in Dario�s case) are no longer required. Continued riding does offer a frame builder opportunities to get a better understanding of frame materials and components that were not around during their hay day (read Ben).

There are builders who ride/race long past the time when they �need� to (atmo), but I venture that for those folks, it is just the love of riding more than anything else that keeps them on the bike. Finally, there are those who pretty much gave up riding years ago but continue to build/market their frames. There, the results are mixed. Some still make great stuff while some of them really do seem to loose touch.

Ideally, most builders would LOVE to ride every day. But then, you would never get your new bike would you? ;)

Smiley

03-04-2007, 02:49 PM

Hey Tom how come your a great BBQ man , did you used to run a stand in the Carolina's at some point in time :)

cpg

03-04-2007, 03:00 PM

I agree with most or all of what Tom said. I figure all frame builders must have something about bikes because they aren't beating down the doors to become frame builders for the money. That's not a complaint it's just one can make more money doing lots of other things. So even if a builder isn't currently riding as much as in the past doesn't necessarily mean they've lost their fire for building. I also think it's sort of overblown the connection between riding and building. They're two different skill sets. Sort of like eating and cooking. Just because someone likes to eat doesn't mean they're a great cook.

For me, I ride almost everyday because I love it and it keeps me sane. I build bikes because it's my creative outlet and vocation. The two interesect, are linked yet are completely seperate. Does that make sense? Anyway, don't worry about Dario's appearance. It has nothing to do with his bikes or framebuilding.

Curt

zank

03-04-2007, 03:11 PM

It depends on the person. I agree with everything Tom said. But for myself, I need to ride to keep my sanity, and I feel a lot better when I am fit.

I NEED to race because racing is the only form of sport I have known my whole life. Racing something, as opposed to playing a game, was what my dad brought me up doing. Plus, being around racers helps me filter out what is really important to the rider and the race bike vs. what is superfluous.

Logging my 3.5 hours today in the salt, sand, grit and snowmelt was the only thing I wanted to be doing. But, now that i have the miles in the bank, I am off to the shop. :banana:

Tom Kellogg

03-04-2007, 03:31 PM

Hey Tom how come your a great BBQ man , did you used to run a stand in the Carolina's at some point in time :)

Smiley:

I don't have the talent to be a chef. I kind of cheated on the rib thing. I did figure out how to prepare the ribs themselves. You know, how they fall apart. But the sauce, I got from many, MANY visits to Smitty's Chicken and Ribs in Rochester, NY back in the mid 70s when I was attending the University of Rochester. Smitty's family served chicken, ribs, and shrimp on two pieces of Wonder Bread, a side of macaroni salad with a LOT of the sauce on a paper plate. Water upon request. Smitty wouldn't tell me how he made the sauce, but I eventually figured it out, pretty much. The results don't say much about my talents, but they are a tribute to Smitty and his family. :p

Climb01742

03-04-2007, 03:47 PM

i would guess a framebuilder's knowledge base comes from many sources: personal riding; feedback from riders; all the frames built over a lifetime; creating tubing; talking with other builders. i'm sure the list even longer.

three personal data points: as a young man, dario rode from morning til night just to say hello to a girlfriend, as a bike was his only option and she lived far away. and imagine what he learned (and they in return) from building bikes for big mig and marco? and, richie and he just designed a new tubeset. a lot is learned over 30 years...and still learning/creating today.

a builder's talent is in his mind, eyes, hands and soul, not his stomach.

Grant McLean

03-04-2007, 03:55 PM

I would think that feedback can come from sources other than the framebuilder's
personal experience. After all, a builder is only 1 size, and unless they want
to do the Robert DeNiro raging bull transformation, they're not going to be
able to experience what other people of different sizes and weights feel.

g

Ray

03-04-2007, 06:55 PM

I obviously can't add anything to what the likes of Tom, Smiley, Curt, and Zank said, but I think it's useful to distinguish between builders and designers here. I don't think it matters a bit whether a frame BUILDER has ever ridden a bike in his or her life. I'm sure there are plenty of fine brazers and welders working for any number of bike manufacturers who don't ride. Jeff Duser, if memory serves, had never ridden in the sense that most around here think of riding - yet he brazes up a hell of a nice frame.

But I think the fitters and designers should either be or have been pretty serious cyclists to really understand how changing the different variables affect how a bike rides and handles. Whichever person or combination of people who determine the dimensions, angles, and tubing that goes into a frame needs to have been there. Not that they need to have ridden in the Tour, mind you, but they should understand the subtle differences in the way a bike can feel and I don't think you can get there without putting in some pretty real miles.

-Ray

Too Tall

03-04-2007, 06:59 PM

No but it certainly gets my attention when a framebuilder does ride / race.

cs124

03-04-2007, 07:30 PM

... After all, a builder is only 1 size...

this question has bugged me forever.

I'd feel alot warm and fuzzier if the frame builder (or at least designer as Ray most astutely pointed out) was at least close to my size. That way there is some shared knowlege and experience when describing the desired frame characteristics.

Of course, in my rational moments I realise that the frame builder knows what he's doing and I should just pick the colour but a certain level of neurosis is, I think, required to be a bike nut.

Tom Kellogg

03-04-2007, 08:35 PM

i would guess a framebuilder's knowledge base comes from many sources: personal riding; feedback from riders; all the frames built over a lifetime; creating tubing; talking with other builders. i'm sure the list even longer.

Climb:

Of course you are right that we could not get to where we are without the folks who put us here; our customers. I didn�t bring up that part of our education because the original post / question was about builders� (designers�) riding or lack thereof.

But, yes. Back in the day when I first started building out of the back of a Schwinn shop in Allentown, it was the national track team who taught me what worked and what didn�t. Jerry, Leigh, Dave, Gibby, etc. had no idea how to design frames, but they did know what worked and what didn�t. It was up to me to figure out how to make their bikes do what they wanted. Their feedback was what I needed to get things right, quickly. Fortunately, I was racing with (against) them (fortunately??) during those early years and their requests paired with what I was feeling on the track helped me figure things out. I can�t stress how much of an advantage those years from �76 through about �80 were to me. Talk about a steep learning curve! By �79 I had the confidence to design and build Danny Clark�s 6-day frames. I had been riding and training with him for two summers. If he had not been in our area during those years, I would not have gotten from him what I needed to understand the very odd needs of a 6-day rider. As I mentioned, someone like Danny, as talented as he is and with all his pro wins over the years had not a clue how to design and build frames. But what he did know was what he needed his bikes to do. That is what our customers teach us. And because of that, we will never know all we need to know.

Thank you, all of you, for being our teachers.

LH2

03-04-2007, 08:52 PM

Thanks Tom for the insight. :)

Jeff N.

03-04-2007, 10:52 PM

What do you think - is it important that a framebuilder ride?

I was flipping through the 2007 Pegoretti catalog and it occurred to me that Dario might not be putting in the miles if you know what I mean...

If true, does it matter?Probably not. Probably not at all. Jeff N.

Samster

03-04-2007, 11:00 PM

Ideally, most builders would LOVE to ride every day. But then, you would never get your new bike would you? ;)i'm more interested in the post-count/backlog inverse correlation hypothesis... atmo ;) .

shinomaster

03-04-2007, 11:23 PM

Why would I want to buy a bike from a Fred that doesn't know how to ride one?

dbrk

03-05-2007, 07:02 AM

Why would I want to buy a bike from a Fred that doesn't know how to ride one?

For the same reason you'd buy a rocket ship from a guy who can't drive one...'cause he knows the design issues. It's true that cycle design and building largely comes from experience (trial, input etc.), but it also comes from study and, dare I say, mimetics. _Many_ of the outstanding builders at the show in San Jose who are building, for example, randonneuse frames "learned" to do it by studying the work (not even measuring out) of Singer, Herse, Mariposa, et.al. Some of these builders are quite young (praise the lord, it will continue...) and don't have heaps of experience either building or riding but their bikes are brilliant because they are paying attention (not from riding or from years) and have the talent. Dario, in comparison, was not only an accomplished racer but also has brazed (and welded) more frames than all of the builders at the San Jose show combined (and more likely twice over). Sure, experience brings a wisdom that can't be had any other way but I don't think it has much to do with riding as such. I think it has to do with understanding what works, how to reach design solutions (so sorely lacking in many modern bikes, imho), and the talent it takes to bring these issues to bear.

dbrk

stevep

03-05-2007, 07:23 AM

i say it does not matter.
although from a marketing perspective it helps.

93legendti

03-05-2007, 07:30 AM

Did Leo Fender play guitar?

Sandy

03-05-2007, 07:35 AM

For the same reason you'd buy a rocket ship from a guy who can't drive one...'cause he knows the design issues. It's true that cycle design and building largely comes from experience (trial, input etc.), but it also comes from study and, dare I say, mimetics. _Many_ of the outstanding builders at the show in San Jose who are building, for example, randonneuse frames "learned" to do it by studying the work (not even measuring out) of Singer, Herse, Mariposa, et.al. Some of these builders are quite young (praise the lord, it will continue...) and don't have heaps of experience either building or riding but their bikes are brilliant because they are paying attention (not from riding or from years) and have the talent. Dario, in comparison, was not only an accomplished racer but also has brazed (and welded) more frames than all of the builders at the San Jose show combined (and more likely twice over). Sure, experience brings a wisdom that can't be had any other way but I don't think it has much to do with riding as such. I think it has to do with understanding what works, how to reach design solutions (so sorely lacking in many modern bikes, imho), and the talent it takes to bring these issues to bear.

dbrk

Dario must be somewhat old, the builders at the show must be very young, Dario is very fast, the builders at the show very slow, or some combination thereof. ;)

Slow Sandy

J.Greene

03-05-2007, 07:46 AM

Building frames/bikes without intimate knowledge of how they work is like the two legged stool. I'm not sure how you'd learn that knowledge without riding. Whether it's racing, or knowing where to pack a tent and a bag the riding is important atmo.

JG

julia

03-05-2007, 07:51 AM

I can't think of a better name for a racer than >dario pegoretti<

didn't he race keirin

Too Tall

03-05-2007, 08:14 AM

Julia I was not familiar with "keirin" and looked it up in wilkpedia:

"An agressive form of hand to shoulder combat while riding bicycles. Racers are described as "falling forward" and kept up only by constant body contact. At the end of races piles of bodies are heaped once the finish line is crossed".

Sounds fun.

Dekonick

03-05-2007, 09:35 AM

Smiley:

I don't have the talent to be a chef. I kind of cheated on the rib thing. I did figure out how to prepare the ribs themselves. You know, how they fall apart. But the sauce, I got from many, MANY visits to Smitty's Chicken and Ribs in Rochester, NY back in the mid 70s when I was attending the University of Rochester. Smitty's family served chicken, ribs, and shrimp on two pieces of Wonder Bread, a side of macaroni salad with a LOT of the sauce on a paper plate. Water upon request. Smitty wouldn't tell me how he made the sauce, but I eventually figured it out, pretty much. The results don't say much about my talents, but they are a tribute to Smitty and his family. :p

Not to hijack but -

how do you make your BBQ sauce? I have been looking all over for recepie's and most of 'em aren't that good.

as far as the original post, my bet is any craftsman will be better if they use, or at least have used, what they make.

RPS

03-05-2007, 09:51 AM

Is there a difference between twenty years of experience and one year of experience twenty times over?

Personally I think having a framebuilder/designer who rides is far more important when he is trying or doing something very different from the ordinary � that is, revolutionary more so than evolutionary. IMO it�s helpful to distinguish between theory and craftsmanship.

As an example only, a talented electrical engineer could design a complex power substation but he may not have the talent or ability to install the equipment himself. On the other hand, a talented electrician should be able to do the installation work easily, and if he has many years of experience, may be able to copy the design at a different location with great results � provided he doesn�t make significant changes.

However, if all of the sudden technology changes and radically different types of equipment are available that would be beneficial; an experience electrician alone may not be able to integrate the new stuff into a functional system. At that point an electrical engineer with greater understanding of theory would be required.

IMHO the same would apply to framebuilders/designers. Copying an existing process/design would be quite different than innovating; where riding would be very helpful. And as in the example above, it doesn�t mean that the experienced rider/builder who can innovate can make a nicer looking weld any more than an artistic craftsman can innovate. These are two different talents.

The cat�s meow would be finding a talented electrical engineer who is also an electrician; combining design theory and craftsmanship.

swoop

03-05-2007, 09:54 AM

its important that a framebuilder is a good framebuilder. what he does to draw understanding, deepen his knowledge and refine his skills is personal to him.

atmo.

manet

03-05-2007, 10:01 AM

I can't think of a better name for a racer than >dario pegoretti<

didn't he race keirin

shirts against the skins.

peter weigle

03-05-2007, 10:47 AM

i say it does not matter.
although from a marketing perspective it helps.

Steve P,,, I couldn't dissagree more.

I feel riding is important, (and everyone knows I'm not much into marketing:~))
I build myself new frames quite often to try out new tube sets, subtle design changes and to see how these affect the feel of the bike. To ride is fine, to evaluate devine!

If you don't care about improving the breed then it does not matter. My impressions of my bikes cross referenced with feedback I get from my customers help me stay in touch with what works well out on the roads.

Last year I did some tire testing for Bicycle Quarterly. It was a real eye opener to sense how much of a difference tires alone had on the handling of the bike.
Combining experiences like that with tube selection and geometry choices help me fine tune design choices for my customers frames.

Not riding and evaluating your frames is like building a frame,,, and then telling your customer to go out and find a carbon for to go with it! Sure it will ride ok, but in my mind there is a big difference between an ok ride and a finely tuned ride.
Sitting behind the bench relying on what you learned 10 years ago is fine, but a lot has changed since then. If you're not out on the road evaluating and updating your "education" how would you really know how these changes affect the ride.
I feel I owe it to my customers to get out there and put some miles in, what better way to improve the breed.

Peter

Tom Kellogg

03-05-2007, 11:47 AM

Steve P,,, I couldn't dissagree more.

I feel riding is important, (and everyone knows I'm not much into marketing:~))
I build myself new frames quite often to try out new tube sets, subtle design changes and to see how these affect the feel of the bike. To ride is fine, to evaluate devine!

If you don't care about improving the breed then it does not matter. My impressions of my bikes cross referenced with feedback I get from my customers help me stay in touch with what works well out on the roads.

Last year I did some tire testing for Bicycle Quarterly. It was a real eye opener to sense how much of a difference tires alone had on the handling of the bike.
Combining experiences like that with tube selection and geometry choices help me fine tune design choices for my customers frames.

Not riding and evaluating your frames is like building a frame,,, and then telling your customer to go out and find a carbon for to go with it! Sure it will ride ok, but in my mind there is a big difference between an ok ride and a finely tuned ride.
Sitting behind the bench relying on what you learned 10 years ago is fine, but a lot has changed since then. If you're not out on the road evaluating and updating your "education" how would you really know how these changes affect the ride.
I feel I owe it to my customers to get out there and put some miles in, what better way to improve the breed. Peter

Peter, you are better at explaining this stuff than I am. Thanks.
+1

merckx

03-05-2007, 11:55 AM

What about Round who has a select few pros test his machines and works from this data point? Isn't this a valid method of deriving information to evolve the breed? In any event, I agree that someone must be riding the machines for them to move forward (no pun intended) be it the builder or evaluations from other experts. Computers create crappy velos.

Grant McLean

03-05-2007, 12:02 PM

I'm wondering how many builders have even ridden bikes other than their own work?

There are some members here on this forum who have a lot of experience riding
an bike from just about every top maker.

How many builders can say that?

:)

g

Too Tall

03-05-2007, 12:03 PM

"If you don't care about improving the breed then it does not matter. My impressions of my bikes cross referenced with feedback I get from my customers help me stay in touch with what works well out on the roads. "

Surprise surprise, EVERYTHING we do is about people. Well said :)

Dek., I've got the secret recipe. Save my life sometime we'll call it even ;)

JF636

03-05-2007, 12:10 PM

Last year I did some tire testing for Bicycle Quarterly. It was a real eye opener to sense how much of a difference tires alone had on the handling of the bike.

Peter

This is one of the best statements that I have read on this forum and should be in bold print at the top of the board. :cool:

More on the question...if the builder is building off the shelf geometries, it probably wouldn't matter if he rode as much as if he were doing full custom frames. Pegoretti had the fortune of having some pretty esteem clients throughout his career that gave him benificial input. Developing any racing "machine" to a rider/racer is dependent on feedback from the rider/driver and the better they are at conveying information, the better the outcome will be.

As far as bike frames go, where racing may not be a main criteria, and where a set of proven designs may need to change to accomadate an indivdual that may not have the expertise to convey "exactly" what they want or need....then that is where the builder needs to have the road feel from experience to be able to deliver the results.

BTW...who knows if Dario rides or not. He may not have to be in racing shape to still have the ability to feel how a frame will ride. ;)

julia

03-05-2007, 12:36 PM

CNY rider

03-05-2007, 12:36 PM

I'm wondering how many builders have even ridden bikes other than their own work?

:)

g

I think that's a really great question.
I remember Dave Kirk posted in the past about riding and testing some of the competitors bikes when he was at Serotta. I wonder if any of the other builders do that. I assume Serotta still does, but don't know for sure.
Would it be feasible for a one man "boutique" style builder to do?

peter weigle

03-05-2007, 01:07 PM

I think that's a really great question.
I remember Dave Kirk posted in the past about riding and testing some of the competitors bikes when he was at Serotta. I wonder if any of the other builders do that. I assume Serotta still does, but don't know for sure.
Would it be feasible for a one man "boutique" style builder to do?

Grant,
I've ridden a lot of bikes by other builders...One of my customers even snapped a picture of me throwing a leg over ATMO's own cross bike a few years ago,,, ( the customer says the picture will be worth money some day!)

Last year I was in Seattle test riding Rene Herse and Alex Singer bikes. Its easy, all you have to do is ask, most owners will let you ride their bikes.

But I still find I learn the most riding my own newest bike. Knowing how my previous bike rode,and how it was spec'ed, and what changes I made to make the new one, allow me to compare the differences between the two.
I feel its more an apples to apples test, I know what the base line is.

So how did the Sachs ride???? IMHO If he keeps at it, he could be very good someday ATMO! :~))

catulle

03-05-2007, 01:14 PM

What PJW said... +1

(What did he say, atmo...?) :beer:

stevep

03-05-2007, 05:39 PM

with respect for peter and tom ( where the 'ell is atmo and his screeching )
who are byond question 2 of the finest frame builders in the world and whose opinions i take as simple law.
i still am not sure. its a great sport and luckily many frame builders are also super enthusiasts and when i say marketing i dont mean it in a bad way.

the larger issue for me is that i am a 55cm guy. i can no more test or put input into a 58cm frame than the pope can fly...
it has a way of somewhat limiting the "test my own stuff" theory.
what about if the guy is 6'3"?... then go to leonard zinn?
what about a 5'2" woman? who has real personal experience with that?
its all word of mouth and opinions not really formed by the builder personal enthusiastic experience. eh has to build some bikes for said customer and work it out... does not help for him to ride a 55...so to speak.

i think it is a great virtue but i do not think it is critical to the function of building or the understanding of the tubing, geometry, etc that will determine the desired result.

anyway, one thing i am postive of is that peter or tom will build you a bike that you will love and thats really the end of the story. i am glad that they ride because it is great for the sport an contributes tremendously to the active culture that we see alive and well here.

swoop

03-05-2007, 05:44 PM

i think it's really all about facial hair. at some point in his life..my builder needs to have rocked some questionable non-ironic Village People would-be- jealous manly time-released testosterone-drip facial hair.

that and they need to be a little off in the head but in a good way.
someone has to be the shaman these days and it might as well be the guy with the torch.

obtuse

03-05-2007, 06:12 PM

no. take what i am saying with a grain of salt, i'm only speaking about folks who presume to make road racing bikes. a framebuilder needn't ride a bicycle but he needs an experience of providing racing bicycles to bicycle racers. it doesn't matter if "you still ride" or not...it'll have little effect on the end product once you know what you are doing. nonetheless if as a framebuilder, you escape into a bubble whereby the product becomes fetishized, loses any touch with its original purpose, and your only client base are those who do not race bicycles at a high level, you might as well neither ride a bike nor build'em. experience at building race bikes is what matters most and that's why if i had to pick, the builders whos bikes i was most impressed with at the nambla show were those built by richard and dario....the former rides his arse off, the latter was a top ranked amateur at one time but i digress....

a frame that takes a hundred hours by a dwarf to build and through divine providence somehow exists within unmeasured 10,000ths of a milimeter tolerances is of course the exception to the above as the prizes at the nambla show clearly show.

obtuse

obtuse

atmo

03-05-2007, 08:39 PM

i'm coming it to this party late, since i just returned from nambla.
atmo we are all different. i got into bicycle making after i started
racing; it was the sport that got me interested, not technology, or
engineering, or craft, or saving the world from motor vehicles blah
blah. racing and being of the sport has definately made be more
confident wrt what i do. it accelerated the learning curve. it forced
the epiphanies to come sooner (some in three minutes or less...).
it gave me the platform from which to make decisions with more
chutzpah and be able to stand behind them. when we (my peer group)
began, it was in an era that still had a place for framebuilders to get
the feedback that was necessary in order to use the sport as a laboratory.
through my earliest years, i could count as many as 2 dozen national
(and olympic) team riders (from here and canada) among my client list.
that all changed when the uscf got (too) big and mandated that those
chosen to represent must use the official federation bicycle, whatever
it happened to be in a given year. ironically, the olympics in 1984 was
the pivotal era after which it became near impossible to see your stuff
used from development through to the international arena, but those
were good times nonetheless, and much good came from cycling's
growth even if the feds took the sport away from the the clubs and their
sponsors and gave it to the corporate world. hey - shut me up already.
anyway, for me racing and the sport are inseparable from framebuiding
and other's mileage may vary. here in episcoville we remain tethered
in one way shape or form, and still chase stars and stripes jersies with
'cross now being our center of attention. we've got nine since 1997, and
hope a tenth comes along soon. add these/this experience to the building
process and it'd be foolish to overlook the sport's impact atmo. oh -and
yeah, i still race and dig racing. it's a way to remain in a state of arrested
development, and that matters to me atmo.

tch

03-05-2007, 08:55 PM

shirts against the skins.
Atmo can be a skin.
I'm over 50. Definitely a shirt.

big shanty

03-05-2007, 09:13 PM

what about if the guy is 6'3"?... then go to leonard zinn?

.

Is 6'3" the "Dude, you're a freak....get a Zinn" threshold? I was thinking it was more like 6'8" (or whatever TT is).

Noah

stevep

03-06-2007, 02:17 AM

Is 6'3" the "Dude, you're a freak....get a Zinn" threshold? I was thinking it was more like 6'8" (or whatever TT is).

Noah

it is for me.
anyone taller that i am is a geek
anyone shorter is a shrimp.
life is simple.

Ray

03-06-2007, 05:48 AM

it is for me.
anyone taller that i am is a geek
anyone shorter is a shrimp.
life is simple.
I like it. Anyone who drives slower than me is an idiot - anyone who drives faster is a maniac. Anyone who rides slower is a fred - anyone who rides faster is a racer wannabe.

Life IS simple :cool:

-Ray

stevep

03-06-2007, 06:39 AM

I like it. Anyone who drives slower than me is an idiot - anyone who drives faster is a maniac. Anyone who rides slower is a fred - anyone who rides faster is a racer wannabe.

Life IS simple :cool:

-Ray

in the words of atmo.
ray gets it.
ray, how tall are you?

Ray

03-06-2007, 06:48 AM

ray, how tall are you?
Evidently, I'm a geek. I used to be 6', but now I think I'm somewhere between there and 5' 11". A 55 is a toy bike in my world.

-Ray

gt6267a

03-06-2007, 07:02 AM

I can describe sex to you all day long, but until you�ve tried it, do you really know what I'm talking about?

stevep

03-06-2007, 07:06 AM

Evidently, I'm a geek. I used to be 6', but now I think I'm somewhere between there and 5' 11". A 55 is a toy bike in my world.

-Ray

you are, according to my chart... a mini geek.
tt is a mega geek.

its right on the chart.

atmo

03-06-2007, 07:09 AM

I can describe sex to you all day long, but until you�ve tried it, do you really know what I'm talking about?
please sir i want to learn atmo.

cpg

03-06-2007, 10:41 AM

I think riding certainly aids in the design work which of course is integral to frame building but design is seperate to the actual assembly of the frame. That was what my initial post was about. To be more clear, no matter how much one rides that skill set has no bearing on how well one brazes, welds, glues, miters, aligns, machines, files, sands, etc. a bike together. Those skill sets are not learned through riding. Riding does effect how one designs frames though and design is integral to the whole.

I hear what SteveP is saying but I ride a 59cm and since I'm bigger than he is then he's wrong! :) It's true that riding one's own size doesn't allow for riding other sizes but it does give one a baseline or language of sorts to solve the "problem."

The OP was wondering about this question in regards to Dario. He's been around the block. He knows the dealio. Don't worry about if he looks like he rides. He can build you a race bike just fine. Race bikes are easy.

Curt

cpg

03-06-2007, 10:45 AM

n
a frame that takes a hundred hours by a dwarf to build and through divine providence somehow exists within unmeasured 10,000ths of a milimeter tolerances is of course the exception to the above as the prizes at the nambla show clearly show.

obtuse

obtuse

Ouch! I'm glad you were holding back.

Curt

Climb01742

03-06-2007, 10:46 AM

Race bikes are easy.

curt, if you wouldn't mind, could you elaborate? just curious. easy because the objective/desired ride is more clear-cut? 0% argument. 100% curious. thanks!

cpg

03-06-2007, 10:53 AM

It was sort of an inside joke but a road race bike design has fewer design issues for the builder to take into account than any other design short of a track bike. That's why I called them easy. Easy is a relative term.

Curt

Too Tall

03-06-2007, 03:06 PM

you are, according to my chart... a mini geek.
tt is a mega geek.

its right on the chart.

Now listen Mini-me ;) Toast is a word that comes to mind. Ahem.

Anywho, I KNOW that I'm way to big to actually ride or race a bike. Nuff said, however thru the genius of great minds like: Pat Clark / Dean Kent, Kelly Bedford, Sasha White , Tom Kellogg and similar like minded folks who "do" my custom shoes....allllll "get it" and are able to get their arms around the concept of how to allow this overgrown ape of a man ride a bike without looking like a complete fool and at times have some grace afoot...and they are in allll shapes and sizes ;)

This is an artists colony in so many ways. Some are the artists others just live in the peaceful waves of tolerance and brilliance. It's more than "all good" it is what we seek.

Anywho my moniker is pat pal no changes. TT remains a patron to the peacful arts. xxoo

zank

03-06-2007, 03:14 PM

no one is too big or tall to race cross. Just ask Trebon and Wicks.

David Kirk

03-06-2007, 03:21 PM

I'm a bit late to the party just getting back from the Big Show but here are my belated thoughts -

Yes I do think that it's important. I think it's important that the designer can ride and can feel the differences that changes in spec's can make. Notice I said designer not builder. The person sicking it together need not be a skilled rider (can't hurt) but riding skill certainly isn't a prerequisite for a welder/brazer/finsher/machinist/painter.....etc.

I need a nap.

Dave

flydhest

03-06-2007, 04:00 PM

Curt, you're wrong. If you're going to braze 30 frames in a day, you need cardio endurance. It matters if the builder rides, goshdarnit.

I think riding certainly aids in the design work which of course is integral to frame building but design is seperate to the actual assembly of the frame. That was what my initial post was about. To be more clear, no matter how much one rides that skill set has no bearing on how well one brazes, welds, glues, miters, aligns, machines, files, sands, etc. a bike together. Those skill sets are not learned through riding. Riding does effect how one designs frames though and design is integral to the whole.

I hear what SteveP is saying but I ride a 59cm and since I'm bigger than he is then he's wrong! :) It's true that riding one's own size doesn't allow for riding other sizes but it does give one a baseline or language of sorts to solve the "problem."

The OP was wondering about this question in regards to Dario. He's been around the block. He knows the dealio. Don't worry about if he looks like he rides. He can build you a race bike just fine. Race bikes are easy.

Curt

manet

03-06-2007, 04:05 PM

...
tt is a mega geek.

its right on the chart.

illustrations always help:

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e61/easterncaster/IMG_2034.jpg

catulle

03-06-2007, 05:41 PM

Can a man sell sanitary napkins, atmo...?

davids

03-06-2007, 06:03 PM

Can a man sell sanitary napkins, atmo...?
When my wife was choosing an OB, she said she didn't care if the doc was a woman, just that s/he had a lot of experience delivering healthy babies.

(The nurses do all the work, anyways...)

flydhest

03-06-2007, 07:29 PM

. . . baby, would you look at the calves on Too Tall. I'm drooling, atmo.

Too Tall

03-06-2007, 07:43 PM

"MegaGeeksawa"

Walk the walk, talk the talk. All that stands behind me and a long waiting list is talent...a brain...good looks and a whole lotta flux :rolleyes: Dangit.

http://www.bikeschool.com/frame.htm

Too Tall

03-06-2007, 07:47 PM

no one is too big or tall to race cross. Just ask Trebon and Wicks.

There you go making sense and me with no cross bike...arg. No wait, take the fenders off the Vanilla....Hmmm.

cpg

03-07-2007, 10:45 AM

Do it man. Given your vertical prowess, you'd have an advantage on the barriers!

Curt

zank

03-07-2007, 10:50 AM

There you go making sense and me with no cross bike...arg. No wait, take the fenders off the Vanilla....Hmmm.

perfecto!

coylifut

03-07-2007, 01:15 PM

Talk about a steep learning curve! By �79 I had the confidence to design and build Danny Clark�s 6-day frames. I had been riding and training with him for two summers. If he had not been in our area during those years, I would not have gotten from him what I needed to understand the very odd needs of a 6-day rider. As I mentioned, someone like Danny, as talented as he is and with all his pro wins over the years had not a clue how to design and build frames. But what he did know was what he needed his bikes to do. That is what our customers teach us. And because of that, we will never know all we need to know.

Thank you, all of you, for being our teachers.

Hey Tom, what are the "very odd needs of a 6-day rider" as compared to say what a guy racing omnium events would need.

Wow, Danny Clark. I saw a picture of him not too long ago. I would describe him as quite griseled.