MeiVici Infinitely Customizable?

[kkasper4]

I guess not.

I got fit for my MeiVici this past Tuesday. I went through the initial design of the bike with the fitter once we were done and was very happy with the way the bike was going to come out. Today I get the design results from Serotta, but things had been changed. I originally chose a 3-4 degree slope to the top tube (aesthetic choice), for a change of pace. My Ottrott is 6 degree slope and my C50 is a level top tube. I was informed today that they can only build the MeiVici in a 1 degree slope or a 7 degree slope because of the lugs. Not that this is really a huge deal, but I thought one of the reasons they charge $8,000 for the frame is because it is supposed to be completely customizable, but now I'm told a only have two choices with respect to top-tube slope. Does this make sense? Am I getting worked up over nothing? I'm actually thinking about changing to the Z1 at this point (not because a 7 degree top tube slope is terrible, but because one of the things I thought I was paying for (complete customization) is not actually offered).

[Jeff Weir]

Waddya want for 8 large?

[Marcusaurelius]

I could live with a 1 degree slop I suppose although personally I would prefer a level top tube.

[catulle]

:help:

[Sandy]

I think that you make a most valid point. The MeiVic page on the website states- "The first truly custom...." I wonder what that means. That would set me back some. What makes it the "first truly" custom, while at the same time, it is not fully custom?


Sandy

[rnhood]

I could also live with 1 degree but, would prefer level. Never 7 degrees though, nor could I accept parting with 8 bills for a frame.

Get a CDA and have it built like you want.

[Ti Designs]

Short of Kelly stepping in to explain the process, I'll take a swipe at this one...


The Meivici is based on a set of rather complex carbon lugs. What sets it apart from the others is that it's a carbon tube, carbon lug bike which is offered as a custom. Other bikes are offered with carbon tubes and lugs - the Time bikes for instance, but only in stock sizes where they make the same lugs thousends of times over. The Meivici lugs start out as solid forms and the inside bores are machined using a very accurate CNC machine. This allows them to have the lugs made in a stock size in a mold to ensure proper evacuation, while still offering the tubing angles that go into making a custom frame. When the process is done you are left with a set of lugs and tubes with such tight tolorance that the frame holds together without glue (many steel builders could show you the same thing with a perfectly mitered tube set and fitted set of lugs). The only limitation on this process is that there is a reasonable offset they can put into the bore of the lug. The lug's wall thickness makes up for a degree or so in either direction, but beyond that you're outside it's design parameters.

Rather than going into lots of detail that you're probably not going to understand, I'll say this. If you're considering investing $7000 on a frame, go to New York and take the factory tour. Once you see the raw lug and the process for making a custom frame it'll be clear what you're spending your money on. I honestly feel that in the case of this one bike, knowing the process that developed it means taking a greater pride in the bike itself.

If only the Serotta beer was that good...


Now 'bout the Parlee - another frame which I activly sell, it's not like they don't have their own limitations in building. Parlee uses a carbon wrapping process to form the lugs, so there's a bit more room for change there. BUT, they need to heat and compress the lugs, which takes an aluminum form with a silicone liner. The silicone allows them the same adjustability that Serotta gets from changing the angle of the bore, but you're still left with the same issue of having the right forms to get all the angles.

[kkasper4]

Ti Designs

Thanks for the reply, it does make sense. I think spending $8,000 on a frame is more than enough, I'm not interested in shelling out any more. I would not mind so much if the bike was advertised as "the first truly customizable frame, available in a level (1 degree) and sloping (7 degree) top tube designs". Unfortunately, the way I read the description of the frame (also the way my Serotta authorized dealer interpreted their description of the frame) was that all angles were fully customizable. I think they need to re-work their advertising of this frame.

[Sandy]

Ti Designs

Thanks for the reply, it does make sense. I think spending $8,000 on a frame is more than enough, I'm not interested in shelling out any more. I would not mind so much if the bike was advertised as "the first truly customizable frame, available in a level (1 degree) and sloping (7 degree) top tube designs". Unfortunately, the way I read the description of the frame (also the way my Serotta authorized dealer interpreted their description of the frame) was that all angles were fully customizable. I think they need to re-work their advertising of this frame.

I agree.


Sandy

[jsfoster]

or use specific frame. The notion that the frame is customizable for looks, rather that function actually escaped me. -Jon[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]

[catulle]

or use specific frame. The notion that the frame is customizable for looks, rather that function actually escaped me. -Jon[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]


"the first truly customizable only for function frame, available in a level (1 degree) and sloping (7 degree) top tube designs, and other small changes".(?)

[1centaur]

I am mystified by this information and hope a Serottan weighs in soon.

As I recall the verbiage in the threads at the time of the original Meivici announcement, when pressed on what made the Meivici worth the price the answer came back that the angles are customizable in a much wider range (infinite) unlike the competition which is limited by the nature of its construction. While I thought that was not of much value to the 98% of us who are happy to ride typical stock angles, it never occurred to me that we were somehow talking about extremely limited choices of TT slope. In fact, the presumption has been made in threads about the Attack's sloped TT that at least one could get a level TT Meivici if one has the money and the inclination (so to speak). Is the Attack also available in 1 and 7 degree slopes?

As to the wonders revealed on the factory tour, I fail to see how the complexity or skill required to machine that HT lug could ever compensate for the inability to produce the most commonly pleasing TT slopes aesthetically. I kinda hope this information is just wrong.

[Sandy]

I am mystified by this information and hope a Serottan weighs in soon.

As I recall the verbiage in the threads at the time of the original Meivici announcement, when pressed on what made the Meivici worth the price the answer came back that the angles are customizable in a much wider range (infinite) unlike the competition which is limited by the nature of its construction. While I thought that was not of much value to the 98% of us who are happy to ride typical stock angles, it never occurred to me that we were somehow talking about extremely limited choices of TT slope. In fact, the presumption has been made in threads about the Attack's sloped TT that at least one could get a level TT Meivici if one has the money and the inclination (so to speak). Is the Attack also available in 1 and 7 degree slopes?

As to the wonders revealed on the factory tour, I fail to see how the complexity or skill required to machine that HT lug could ever compensate for the inability to produce the most commonly pleasing TT slopes aesthetically. I kinda hope this information is just wrong.

Well stated. Perhaps it is simply marketing and selling bikes.


Sandy

[Ti Designs]

I am mystified by this information and hope a Serottan weighs in soon.

A Serottan??? Anyway, I wouldn't hold yer breath on that one...


As to the wonders revealed on the factory tour, I fail to see how the complexity or skill required to machine that HT lug could ever compensate for the inability to produce the most commonly pleasing TT slopes aesthetically. I kinda hope this information is just wrong.

OK, we'll throw in financial restrictions as well. The limitation is easy to understand. You're holding a solid formed carbon lug in your hand, say for the head tube. There is a narrow range which the bore(s) can be machined before you hit edge of the material. The expensive part of that lug is the mold which creates it and the holder which keeps it exactly in place while the bore is cut. There are limited numbers of these molds, thus the limits in top tube slope. I don't know the state of Serotta's finances, but my guess is that the tooling they have now is far from paid for. The cost of one of those frames may seem high, but it's going to take Serotta at least a season to catch up with the leap in construction technology they made. The way I see it they have two options: They can charge twice as much per frame and offer twice as many lug options - their sales would take a nose dive and the project would fail. Or, they can target what is reasonable both in terms of price and level of custom. There will be people who want frames they can't make given their limitations, but their goal of building the best in-house carbon bike goes on...

Wait a second, did I just call the meivici reasonable???

[Jack Brunk]

Let's take a step back. When the Meivici came out, it was only offered in a sloping top tube. later it became available with a both a level and sloping top tube. I've seen both level models and different degrees of slope models. I know that I was able to alter my top tube slope if I wanted too and I did on my second one. Sounds like you may need to go to another frame maker to get the frame you want.

[swoop]

as far as i am aware.. everything has limitations and 8k bucks doesn't buy you freedom from limitations. it buys you a bike frame.
8k is a lot to spend on a bike frame.... and whatever you buy... the more you understand what you're riding the more you'll be able to sense the value.

i don't know why you want a meivici... that's your choice... i just know that if you get one that it will have 1 degree of slope or 7.

if that's the deal killer than so be it. it isn't an emotional issue... its just a limitation in the way the lug system works.

if you're spun out about ad copy.... i'd just say.. hey... you don't read ad copy and confuse it for literal fact do you? the intent is honest to the process.. you can customize the tube stiffenss and general dimensions of the bike within the limits of the materials.

[kkasper4]

Let's take a step back. When the Meivici came out, it was only offered in a sloping top tube. later it became available with a both a level and sloping top tube. I've seen both level models and different degrees of slope models. I know that I was able to alter my top tube slope if I wanted too and I did on my second one. Sounds like you may need to go to another frame maker to get the frame you want.

When my dealer plugged the initial numbers into their computer program, he did it with a 3 degree top tube slope. When I talked to him today, he told me Kelly stated that it was available with a 1 or 7 degree slope. I asked if these two slopes were my choices because of my geometry, and the response was no, that these were the only two choices period.

I love my Ottrott, and it has a 6 degree slope. I'm sure I'll love the Meivici with a 7 degree slope. My Ottrott and my C50 are much better frames than I am a rider, and I know the Meivici will be to. I guess I have more money than common sense. My issue here is that my understanding over the past year was that what justified the difference in cost between a Meivici and it's competitors (Parlee, Crumpton) was a higher degree of customization than with any other carbon frame. I know for a fact that the Z1 can be built with between 0 to 3 degrees slope (I have no intention of choosing my frame based mainly on the degree of top-tube slope), which is more than the Meivici can offer, so I'm left scratching my head over the claim of the most customizable carbon frame on the market.

[Sandy]

I believe that a couple of you are missing the point. The ability to fine tune the RIDE according to the individual's preferences is not at question here. Serotta claims that the MeiVici is the "First truly custom....." If that is really the case, then why such limitations on design, whether these limitations are aesthetic or not. How a bike looks is very important to many.

What makes a MeiVici the "First truly custom...." bike? How is it more so than a Parlee, for instance, may I ask. Please don't tell me that it is a better made bike, or will ride better, or whatever. That is hardly the point that the original poster made.

So again, why is the MeiVici the first truly custom, and a Parlee, for instance is not? What makes it so? Be specific please.


Sandy

[Sandy]

Sorry. Double post.


Sandy

[Ti Designs]

When my dealer plugged the initial numbers into their computer program, he did it with a 3 degree top tube slope. When I talked to him today, he told me Kelly stated that it was available with a 1 or 7 degree slope. I asked if these two slopes were my choices because of my geometry, and the response was no, that these were the only two choices period.

Either your dealer is stating it in black and white for your sake, or he needs to take the factory tour and learn a thing or two about frame building. The simplification of just two choices is rediculus.

Disproof by counterexample: Let's say you ordered a bike with 1 degree less angle on head and seat tubes, and a higher bottom bracket (don't ask me why). They build it, it has a 7 degree top tube slope. You replace the cyclocross fork it was designed around with a short span road fork and all of the sudden you have a 6 degree slope, a normal BB drop and your regular angles...

So let's not oversimplify this, it's not 1 degree or 7 degrees, it's what they can make given the lugs they have - and you need to make ALL of the lug angles work to build the bike. My own geometry would be very hard for them to build in carbon 'cause my top tube slopes down to the front. I also run very steep angles. This works at both the seat cluster lug (74 degree STA to a -2 degree top tube is the same lug angle as a 72 degree level top tube) and the head tube lug (same reason), but then with the bike basicly tipped forward there's no way they're going to hit the bottom bracket drop. None of this really matters 'cause I can't afford a meivici.


I'll say it again, just in case you missed it the first time - short of Serotta putting out special lieterature on how the Meivici is made (I haven't seen a 2007 catalog yet), your best bet is to go take the factory tour and really understand how that bike goes together. You'll not only get a better understanding of the limitations, you'll get a better understanding of how they customize the ride and just how many parameters go into that design.

[Blastinbob]

Is the Attack also available in 1 and 7 degree slopes?

The Attack is only available in a 7 degree slope and 2 tube stiffnesses.

[Ti Designs]

The Attack is only available in a 7 degree slope and 2 tube stiffnesses.

There's good money to be made in betting against people who belive what they read on web sites...

[1centaur]

Okay, so what you are saying, TiD, is that there are two basic molds, each can be engineered within a slight band before getting too close to the edge of the material, and the actual angles will also be a function of the fork type/height and where the DT is coming from. So technically the possibilities are limitless, but in reality given typical fork dimensions and typical BB drops, the choices are quite limited but greater than just 1 and 7, except for this buyer whose other geometry specs push him to 1 and 7 and possibly a fraction either way based on machining differences, but in any event not zero. That's what I am getting from your explanation, so if I am wrong please correct me. And does your response to Blastinbob mean the Attack is just working off the "7 degree" mold but can vary either way based on other geometry choices or that both molds are used on the Attack (since I was actually wondering what the lowest slope I could get on an Attack would be)?

If that is the story, then the claim of superiority in options vs. Parlee is highly dubious. Parlee also works within limited angles, presumably, but the wrapped lug technique presumably can give TTs of zero, 1 and every increment to 7 assuming typical BB drops and fork rakes; Parlee can spec individual tubes in different ways to customize the ride as well. Thus the effective differences between the two will be in how the differing lugs make the bike ride, slight layup differences, and whether either gets what the rider wants in speccing the tubes (an area where Serotta's reputation is great).

It would be interesting to hear what other geometry choices (if any - still not clear on that) allow for a level TT Meivici and what this buyer's specifying elsewhere on his frame design.

[kkasper4]

It would be interesting to hear what other geometry choices (if any - still not clear on that) allow for a level TT Meivici and what this buyer's specifying elsewhere on his frame design.[/QUOTE]

My Ottrott was set up as an all-around bike, with comfort being one of the major considerations. For reference, I'm 6'1", and 170lbs. The Ottrott's specs came out to be unusual in some regards. My seat tube angle was 76.2, my TT slope was 6 degrees, my horizontal TT length was 58.4, my head tube length was 20.48, with handlebar coord HB C from BB (Hz) 40.7, (Vt) 69.0. For the Meivici, I requested a more aggressive riding position, with the bike tuned much more for performance, with less regard to comfort. The new design came out as seat tube angle 73.5, TT slope 7 degrees, horizontal TT length 56.8, head tube length 14.4, HB C from BB (Hz) 49.9, (Vt) 64.4. With regards to the new measurements, it's not intuitive to me why after moving the seat tube back (76.2 to a 73.5 seat tube angle) that the TT length (58.4 to 56.8) becomes shorter.

I don't know if any of these numbers will explain my 1 or 7 degree top tube slope options, but it's my dealer's understanding that it's not my measurements that resulted in these numbers, it's just all that is offered. I've looked at quite a few pics of Meivici's since yesterday, and the slopers all appear to have the same level of slope.

[1centaur]

I've looked at quite a few pics of Meivici's since yesterday, and the slopers all appear to have the same level of slope.

Given the similarity in BB drop and fork design most have, that should not be surprising if TiD's explanation is correct. In other words, it's not technically true it must be exactly 1 or 7, but practically it might as well be.

[Chad Engle]

Is it even possible to have an infinitely custom bike if it is lugged? I can't imagine how many lug combinations would have to exist.

[Jeff N.]

Waddya want for 8 large?Threaded derailleur cable adjusters would help. :) It's kind of like the old Ford Model T slogan: "Available in any color you want, as long as it's black". Go figure. But maybe they meant it was the first fully customizable all carbon bike ever built...by SEROTTA! That might be a little more believeable...Jeff N.

[kkasper4]

Is it even possible to have an infinitely custom bike if it is lugged? I can't imagine how many lug combinations would have to exist.

Obviously "infinitely" adjustable is impossible, but if you can't do every TT angle between 0 to 7 degrees, doing just the evens or the odds seems reasonable. I just think it odd that such a highly customizable frame would only come with 2 TT slope options. Even the C50 has this, and it's not a custom frame.

[Blastinbob]

There's good money to be made in betting against people who belive what they read on web sites...
I'm going by the discussion I had with James and Andrew on the subject.

[SoCalSteve]

I am reading all these postings and the first thing that comes to mind is that for all that $$$ (the most expensive frame there is, I believe) you should be able to get whatever you want when it comes to geometry specs. With other materials (that cost way less $$$) you are able to get any slope, angle, whatever...

I'd love for Serotta to weigh in to this thread and tell us if this is really true, the logic behind it and why they didnt qualify this in their marketing text.

Steve

[Jeff N.]

I am reading all these postings and the first thing that comes to mind is that for all that $$$ (the most expensive frame there is, I believe) you should be able to get whatever you want when it comes to geometry specs. With other materials (that cost way less $$$) you are able to get any slope, angle, whatever...

I'd love for Serotta to weigh in to this thread and tell us if this is really true, the logic behind it and why they didnt qualify this in their marketing text.

SteveRight on! Jeff N.

[Serotta PETE]

I can not tell the difference between a one degree and level top tube. Most will think it is level. (SPOKES and a friend both have the One degree.)....

They wanted this instead of a sloper. Key is that tubes are custom for your size, ride, etc. Lugs join it together at a LEVEL (one degree) or slope.

KEY is the fit -- THe "sloper" will fit like glove for all. The Level Top Tube (0ne degree might, that is up to your fitter and Kelly.) A 'sloper" gets the front end up higher if you need this for bar to seat fit (height)

You will love the bike

I guess not.

I got fit for my MeiVici this past Tuesday. I went through the initial design of the bike with the fitter once we were done and was very happy with the way the bike was going to come out. Today I get the design results from Serotta, but things had been changed. I originally chose a 3-4 degree slope to the top tube (aesthetic choice), for a change of pace. My Ottrott is 6 degree slope and my C50 is a level top tube. I was informed today that they can only build the MeiVici in a 1 degree slope or a 7 degree slope because of the lugs. Not that this is really a huge deal, but I thought one of the reasons they charge $8,000 for the frame is because it is supposed to be completely customizable, but now I'm told a only have two choices with respect to top-tube slope. Does this make sense? Am I getting worked up over nothing? I'm actually thinking about changing to the Z1 at this point (not because a 7 degree top tube slope is terrible, but because one of the things I thought I was paying for (complete customization) is not actually offered).

[Climb01742]

I am reading all these postings and the first thing that comes to mind is that for all that $$$ (the most expensive frame there is, I believe) you should be able to get whatever you want when it comes to geometry specs. With other materials (that cost way less $$$) you are able to get any slope, angle, whatever...

I'd love for Serotta to weigh in to this thread and tell us if this is really true, the logic behind it and why they didnt qualify this in their marketing text.

Steve

it is seeming more likely that the price of the meivici was a business decision, which is absolutely 100% a-ok. why not just say that upfront? that you're using price as a marketing tool. lord knows many successful companies do it.

but if you claim something else as the rationale, and that something else appears questionable, well...

this is another example of the thing and then the thing around the thing. as simply a bike, a meivici could well be truly amazing. but the thing around the thing (the price and the claim of "The first truly custom, full carbon fiber bicycle frame ever built") sounds, sadly, like a marketing ploy to cover a business decision.

i've always thought of serotta as a company dedicated to substance, not hype or marketing shinnanagins.

[link]

1. Custom Geometry: The MML carbon lugs give us the most flexibility of any molded system.

That was copied from the Q&A (http://www.serotta.com/pages/meivici.html#qa) section for the Mevici.

Clearly, it doesn't indicate an infinite range of geometry design.

[SPOKE]

Ti Designs

Thanks for the reply, it does make sense. I think spending $8,000 on a frame is more than enough, I'm not interested in shelling out any more. I would not mind so much if the bike was advertised as "the first truly customizable frame, available in a level (1 degree) and sloping (7 degree) top tube designs". Unfortunately, the way I read the description of the frame (also the way my Serotta authorized dealer interpreted their description of the frame) was that all angles were fully customizable. I think they need to re-work their advertising of this frame.

sounds to me like your LBS (fitter) didn't completely understand the limitations of the lugs that Serotta currently has available.

in my case i knew that i didn't like the look of a 7 deg sloper so i waited for the level TT lugs to become available. i understand your slight disappointment but i can assure you that outside of the slope issue the MeiVici is the DEAL. i've had mine since late june 06' and have a few thousand miles on it now and absolutely love the thing. if you can get over the slope issue and pull the trigger on the level TT version you won't regret the decision. :beer:

[SPOKE]

here's the easiest way i can explain the lug situation.
for the top tube and seat tube lug sets. whether it's the 7 deg lug set or the level TT lug set each can be machined within + or - 1 degree. so the 7 degree lug can actually be machined to yield a 6 degree, 7 deg or and 8 degree slope while the level TT lug can yield a +1 degree, level or a -1 degree slope.
maybe in the future Serotta will build another mold that will yield other configurations. at this time this is the offering.
mine is a level TT and i think it looks tremendous. if you choose this option you won't regret it. :beer:

[swoop]

let me try this again. no bike frame is limitless. there are always limits to any manufacturing process that are defined by the material. in this model, the limit is essentially the seat tube length.... because of the limits of the st stay and the tt slope is limited. its just an inherent manufacturing limitation.

the frame offers a wide variety of options in tube selction and general dimensions.


parlee has limits around heat tube length and extensions. serotta has limits with their st rear stays (i love serottas but prefer tradional stays which is why i like the seven).

this is not nearly the deal you're making it into... and it's easy to miss the bike through the marketing. its a business.. making bikes is a business and its about the bike and selling a corporate image. the news flash is that there is no such thing as the best bike money can buy.

you can get caught up on lamenting what isn't possible with this model or you can adapt to what is.


you have to weight your desires.
you want custom
you want carbon
you want a specific slope.

that sounds like its critical to you.. if that's the case.... the meivici is not the answer. 3 degrees slope from a design perspective is totally arbitrary. it will have no impact on the feel of the bike.
7 will if you're attuned to such things.
one degree wont... and is essentially level.

no matter what you pay for it.. its a bike. it's only good if you're good, if its stiff enough, and if it fits.
the 8k is a personal decision.. that you've tied into the top tube slope. that's an agenda that comes with you and you have attached to the price.
the bike is just what it is.

you can have it any way you want so long as the seat tube is longer that 45cm and the tt slope is 1 or 7 degrees. it costs 8k. that's the extent of it.

the rest is up to you. a bike and the way its made and its limits are not emotional realities... they are physical ones. when the line between the emotional reality and the physical one get's blurred... things get weird.

there is no relationship between the tt slope and the cost of the bike. both are different expressions of limitations.

limitations are neither good nor bad.. they just are.

atmo.

[Sandy]

1. The MeiVici probably won't disappoint anyone.

2. MeiVici's marketing disappoints me.


Sad Sandy

[93legendti]

it is seeming more likely that the price of the meivici was a business decision, which is absolutely 100% a-ok. why not just say that upfront? that you're using price as a marketing tool. lord knows many successful companies do it.

but if you claim something else as the rationale, and that something else appears questionable, well...

this is another example of the thing and then the thing around the thing. as simply a bike, a meivici could well be truly amazing. but the thing around the thing (the price and the claim of "The first truly custom, full carbon fiber bicycle frame ever built") sounds, sadly, like a marketing ploy to cover a business decision.

i've always thought of serotta as a company dedicated to substance, not hype or marketing shinnanagins.

Isn't every price set by a business a "business" decision? :)

You know, I am not sure what the bruha (bruhaha?) is about. Serotta states this about the Meivici:

"My Victory: The first truly custom, full carbon fiber bicycle frame ever built and the only one to meet the performance and reliability standards that set Serottas apart from every other bike. From the detailed custom fit to the highest level of rider-specific performance tuning right down to the finest finishing details, the MeiVici is in a class by itself and like all Serottas, it’s built to be ridden hard…again and again.

Follow the MeiVici thru the factory to see how it is made HERE!...
1. Custom Geometry: The MML carbon lugs give us the most flexibility of any molded system. The lug collection is managed by our Smart Draft Technology that selects the lug set that best fits the customer’s frame requirements. The selected lugs are then carefully machined to exacting angles as required by the Smart Draft. "

I took this all to mean the actual fit is custom, not necessarily the degree of aesthetic slope -- which seems to be the bone of contention of the OP.

[kkasper4]

Follow the MeiVici thru the factory to see how it is made HERE!...
1. Custom Geometry: The MML carbon lugs give us the most flexibility of any molded system. The lug collection is managed by our Smart Draft Technology that selects the lug set that best fits the customer’s frame requirements. The selected lugs are then carefully machined to exacting angles as required by the Smart Draft. "

I took this all to mean the actual fit is custom, not necessarily the degree of aesthetic slope -- which seems to be the bone of contention of the OP.[/QUOTE]


My request for a 3 degree sloping TT was actually an after thought, requested after the fitting when discussing the bike. It does not appear to me that their MML carbon lug actually gives them the most flexibility out there, as claimed. The Z1 can go from level to 3 degrees, so in my eyes that claim does not hold water. My point of contention is that I thought my $8,000 was getting me something that wasn't availabe elsewhere, so I was wiliing to pony up the extra $3,000 for the frame. My disappointment lies soley with the fact that apparently that extra $3,000 is not getting me options with regard to frame geometry that aren't available elsewhere. I really don't care that much about the TT, right now I'm left trying to figure out why this bike is $3,000 better that a Parlee, or $4,000 better than a Crumpton.

[93legendti]

Sorry you are dissapointed. If I couldn't get mt Ottrott the way I just ordered it, I would be dissapointed as well.

Parlee's site states:"Designed from the ground up for custom geometry, Z1’s may be built with up to 3 degrees of top tube slope and 33mm of head tube extension to fulfill virtually any custom design from 47cm to 63cm."

Seems to me that Serotta's system is more flexible, since you can get 1, 6, 7, 8 degrees of slope, rather than 1-3 degrees of slope. But, if your bike HAS to have 2 or 3 degrees of slope and you can't get it on the Meivici, I understand your feelings. As dbrk might say, we like what we like (and we want what we want). :)

If it was me, I'd get an Ottrott and put the difference into a killer set of carbon wheels.

[stevep]

i think shakespeare had it right.

"much ado about nothing"

great bike. buy it and ride it for many years.

[swoop]

its just a bike frame. any well aligned frame made with respect to the materials that fits right is good within 3% or less of any other frame.

the focus should be geometry and fit.... and you can get the right geo for a lot less.
so you need to disconnect the price for the bike as a statment of quality.

it is a great bike at any price. this one costs 8k.

the 8k is more about you than the bike. serotta is an amazing company witha great culture and they are accountable to their product. they are using everything they have to make the best bikes possible.

that isn't meant to be a harsh....
my ego likes expensive bikes and likes not having to pay for them...
but it isnt' about the bike.. it's about my ego.

the meivici is what it is. it costs 8k. but the 8k is about the consumer too.

this is whats funy about bikes.... they are about so much more than that little collection of triangles.

i'd spend 8k to find the perferct geometry. i lucked out and found it over the years.... i can love a bike in any material in that geo.. and i have.

i hope that helps. if you don't mind spending 8k on it and it fits.. i'm sure you'll love it as much as any other 8k bike that fits (and is manufactured with great care and attention).

carbon is no better or worse than any other material. its just the material that the consumer understands right now. it does a lot of good stuff.. but it has limitations too. and there is good and bad carbon as well.

[cadence90]

i think shakespeare had it right.

"much ado over nothing"

great bike. buy it and ride it for many years.
Sorry, but I disagree, even though I do not own nor want a Meivici.
Much ado is in fact made over all kinds of things here, such as chainstays, color, details, etc. It is what we like to do. And in many cases, the OP is vigorously defended when they state/complain that things did not come out as they desired/expected.

In this case, the debate is not about the quality of the frame (subjective, therefore in fact debatable) but about the claims made by Serotta in the descriptions and text (which I believe the OP correctly points out are confusing at best and misleading at worst).

For $8K (in fact at any price point really) advertising claims should be clear, true, and should be borne out in practice, imho.

[Climb01742]

Sorry, but I disagree, even though I do not own nor want a Meivici.
Much ado is in fact made over all kinds of things here, such as chainstays, color, details, etc. It is what we like to do. And in many cases, the OP is vigorously defended when they state/complain that things did not come out as they desired/expected.

In this case, the debate is not about the quality of the frame (subjective, therefore in fact debatable) but about the claims made by Serotta in the descriptions and text (which I believe the OP correctly points out are confusing at best and misleading at worst).

For $8K (in fact at any price point really) advertising claims should be clear, true, and should be borne out in practice, imho.

+1
serotta knows how to make bikes. not how to market them. this is a self-inflicted wounded. and a sad one. because the bike seems to be making many riders very happy.

to make this discussion about the rider or his expectations is wrong, IMO. this is about confused, confusing and possibly misleading marketing. maybe because this is what i do for a living, i see the issue that way. we debate every day with clients about the impact of what they put out into the world. under-promise and over-deliver might have been a better plan for the meivici.

[swoop]

what do you mean i can't fit this couch in my porsche. in the catalogue it says the interior is nice and there is legroom.

when is it the consumer's fault for not being up tp speed?

[terry b]

I waste a lot of money on bikes and I can't for a minute conceive of dropping 8K on a single frame. But if I could violate that personal threshold, I couldn't imagine doing it on a frame that wasn't precisely what I wanted -no compromises. Honestly, I wouldn't waste the time or the money on any custom frame if the builder couldn't deliver the whole package - looks, ride, performance and attention to detail. It's a big market out there, and aside from the country club party talk about riding $12,000 bicycles, why bother? In the case of custom bikes, the grass almost alway is greener at some shop down the road. And that's precisely where I would head if I couldn't get what I wanted.

As swoop said above - this decision is about the consumer, not the bike. I understand my tastes and that's how I shop. I don't think Serotta is guilty of anything here other than having their definition of infinately customizable being not the same as other people's.

[Climb01742]

what do you mean i can't fit this couch in my porsche. in the catalogue it says the interior is nice and there is legroom.

when is it the consumer's fault for not being up tp speed?

apples and oranges, swoop. "roomy interior" and "The first truly custom, full carbon fiber bicycle frame ever built" are worlds apart. blaming the OP here just don't hunt.

[kkasper4]

There seems to be some confusion as to why I originally made this post, so I'll state things as clearly as I can.

1. I don't think the guys at Serotta are "bad" guys. My Ottrott is an incredible bike, one I choose to ride over my C50 the vast majority of the time. I do not wish any ill-will to the folks at Serotta.

2. The actual slope of the top tube on my bike is not a big deal to me, so long as the bike fits as close to perfect as a bike can in regards to my own physical anatomy.

3. I had convinced myself that I was willing to spend the difference between a Parlee, Crumpton, or Calfee and the Meivici because I thought the Meivici was more customizable than the other frames, and hence was most likely to create the best fit for my build.

4. When I was informed that their lugs only enabled a 1 or 7 degree TT slope,
I began to question whether or not this frame could be built with a more exacting geometry than the other frames I was looking at.

5. Since my original rationale for justifying an $8,000 frame appears false, I'm currently left wondering to myself why it is I should pay $3,000-$4,000 more for the Meivici than the other frames I was considering.

6. Just in case anyone's interested, I still have deciding which frame I'm getting. I have the template for the Meivici, and I'm having my LBS get a template from Parlee for a Z1. I'll assess both, and move foward from there. I know either one of these bikes will be better than I'll ever be.

[manet]

7. have dario paint it

[Sandy]

I believe the MeiVici's limitations are much more than even stated thus far. Head tube angle, seat tube angle, and even bottom bracket drop all have limitations, much more so than other Serotta models.

The reality is (assumingly so, as no one from Serotta has chosen to post on the issue yet) that the MeiVici is far from being the "first truly custom..." That statement is simply not true. Heck, it appears that the Serotta dealer involved didn't even know about the top tube limitations. If so, why would the dealer even enter the order as it did?


Sandy

[cadence90]

8(,000)..Oh my my, oh hell yes
............Honey put on that party dress

[Sandy]

i think shakespeare had it right.

"much ado about nothing"

great bike. buy it and ride it for many years.

There will probably be 100 posts or more before this thread dies. Some posters think the basis of the thread has significant merit.

If Serotta had simply been more accurate in the marketing of the MeiVici, then the thread would never have even occurred.

Tell it like it is, or don't tell it.


Sandy

[Smiley]

As SandMan stated there are geometrical limitations that this client did not know of, there does exsist other limits like BB drop , STA angle range and HTA angle range. BUT *** these limits don't affect where the points of contact are for the vast majority of the riding public. TUBES BABY are where the beef is and that's where the customization of the ride plays out. Get out and ride your bikes folks. This is no biggie of an issue unless you fall outside these angle limits.

I think Sir Climb should edit and write the next Serotta catalog since he is in the know about how to say things in marketing speak that mean more or less then what you think. I say this in all seriousness and out of respect for my man Climb. Go TERPS :banana:

[93legendti]

There will probably be 100 posts or more before this thread dies. Some posters think the basis of the thread has significant merit.

If Serotta had simply been more accurate in the marketing of the MeiVici, then the thread would never have even occurred.

Tell it like it is, or don't tell it.


Sandy

Sandy, the OP seems to think the Meivici was "completely customizable", yet I do not see where Serotta states that:

http://www.serotta.com/pages/meivici.html

Rather, Serotta states this about the M: "Groundbreaking lug design allows for custom geometry possibilities never before available in a full carbon fiber frame."

In Serotta's statements re: this bike, do not see the word infinite, nor completely with regard to Serottas statements as to the level of custom available for this model.

So where is the inaccuracy you are referring to?

[Serotta PETE]

If a decision on a new frame (from any mft and any model) does not put a smile on your face - THEN SIT BACK HAVE A GLASS OF RED and do nothing.

Spending 2,5 or 8K or a frame you have doubts about is not a good thing. Especially since you have a fine bike already. Come on over for a drink and a ride on your OTTROTT, We can go "borrow" SPOKES Meivici for you.

PETE


There seems to be some confusion as to why I originally made this post, so I'll state things as clearly as I can.

1. I don't think the guys at Serotta are "bad" guys. My Ottrott is an incredible bike, one I choose to ride over my C50 the vast majority of the time. I do not wish any ill-will to the folks at Serotta.

2. The actual slope of the top tube on my bike is not a big deal to me, so long as the bike fits as close to perfect as a bike can in regards to my own physical anatomy.

3. I had convinced myself that I was willing to spend the difference between a Parlee, Crumpton, or Calfee and the Meivici because I thought the Meivici was more customizable than the other frames, and hence was most likely to create the best fit for my build.

4. When I was informed that their lugs only enabled a 1 or 7 degree TT slope,
I began to question whether or not this frame could be built with a more exacting geometry than the other frames I was looking at.

5. Since my original rationale for justifying an $8,000 frame appears false, I'm currently left wondering to myself why it is I should pay $3,000-$4,000 more for the Meivici than the other frames I was considering.

6. Just in case anyone's interested, I still have deciding which frame I'm getting. I have the template for the Meivici, and I'm having my LBS get a template from Parlee for a Z1. I'll assess both, and move foward from there. I know either one of these bikes will be better than I'll ever be.

[Jeff Weir]

Pete,

I can not drink RED.

Is white wine an acceptable substitute?

Jeff

[Sandy]

Sandy, the OP seems to think the Meivici was "completely customizable", yet I do not see where Serotta states that:

http://www.serotta.com/pages/meivici.html

Rather, Serotta states this about the M: "Groundbreaking lug design allows for custom geometry possibilities never before available in a full carbon fiber frame."

In Serotta's statements re: this bike, do not see the word infinite, nor completely with regard to Serottas statements as to the level of custom available for this model.

So where is the inaccuracy you are referring to?

Your point is well made. The quote-"The first truly custom,full carbon bike...." means what? What makes the MeiVici the first truly custom full carbon builder? With limitations on slope, head tube angle, seat tube angle, bottom bracket drop,..., what makes Serotta any more "customizable" than other producers who were on the scene well before Serotta- say Calfee and/or Parlee? What is a truly custom carbon bike per Serotta? I wish someone from Serotta would weigh in on what sets Serotta apart from all the others relative to "custom", "truly custom", and "first truly custom". What design custom offerings does the MeiVici offer that say a Parlee or a Calfee (and all the others who came before Serotta) does not. First? First at what realtive to being true custom?


Sandy

[Serotta PETE]

of course....WHITE is fine. I will even have some. Or if Beer is the "order of the day" I am good with that. PETE

Pete,

I can not drink RED.

Is white wine an acceptable substitute?

Jeff

[Jeff Weir]

Pete,

Excellent answer.


Jeff

[Sandy]

Interestingly, I tend to sometimes find myself being critical of Serotta in some way, and that is incongruent with my overall feelings about Serotta and its product. I doubt that I will ever own any brand of bike than a Serotta. But I do believe that the spoken and written words on the MeiVici are not always accurate.

I post on Serotta's own forum, and sometimes not so positively about certain aspects. I guess that I shouldn't really be doing that. I simply thought that some were really missing the point about what the original poster stated on this thread. I was then responding to other posts.

I would bet that some Serotta dealers are not aware of all of the MeiVici design limitations and probably believe that it is much more customizable than it really is.

Perhaps someone from Serotta could enlighten me.

More importantly, perhaps someone should shut me up. I'll do it. I have said too much already.


Sandy

[Serotta PETE]

Come to the OPEN HOUSE> There will be seminars on carbon and discussions on everything from fit to tuning and models.

Answers will be available to all question and if no answer we can go to WINE BAR on MAIN ST and discuss over a glass of RED or even WHITE>

Have a nice evening. PETE


Interestingly, I tend to sometimes find myself being critical of Serotta in some way, and that is incongruent with my overall feelings about Serotta and its product. I doubt that I will ever own any brand of bike than a Serotta. But I do believe that the spoken and written words on the MeiVici are not always accurate.

I post on Serotta's own forum, and sometimes not so positively about certain aspects. I guess that I shouldn't really be doing that. I simply thought that some were really missing the point about what the original poster stated on this thread. I was then responding to other posts.

I would bet that some Serotta dealers are not aware of all of the MeiVici design limitations and probably believe that it is much more customizable than it really is.

Perhaps someone from Serotta could enlighten me.

More importantly, perhaps someone should shut me up. I'll do it. I have said too much already.


Sandy

[Grant McLean]

I would bet that some Serotta dealers are not aware of all of the MeiVici design limitations and probably believe that it is much more customizable than it really is.


Any frame with lugs is just not going to have unlimited freedom of design.

This is the very reason why Serotta developed the Ottrott in the first place.
If you want unlimited flexibilty, tig welding ti joints together makes a lot
more sense than premolding fixed lug angles. Remember why steel lugged
bikes disappeared??? The difficulty of producing individual lug angles is only
the beginning!! Every different tube diameter needs a different lug too
don't forget. The genie is out of the bottle, and putting lugs back into the
custom option is like trying to squeeze the genie back in.

g

[Climb01742]

Interestingly, I tend to sometimes find myself being critical of Serotta in some way, and that is incongruent with my overall feelings about Serotta and its product. I doubt that I will ever own any brand of bike than a Serotta. But I do believe that the spoken and written words on the MeiVici are not always accurate.

I post on Serotta's own forum, and sometimes not so positively about certain aspects. I guess that I shouldn't really be doing that. I simply thought that some were really missing the point about what the original poster stated on this thread. I was then responding to other posts.

I would bet that some Serotta dealers are not aware of all of the MeiVici design limitations and probably believe that it is much more customizable than it really is.

Perhaps someone from Serotta could enlighten me.

More importantly, perhaps someone should shut me up. I'll do it. I have said too much already.


Sandy

sandy, you haven't said too much. you're speaking clearly and honestly.

when the meivici was launched, builders like parlee, calfee and crumpton were building custom carbon frames that offered custom geo and tubing. so for serotta to claim that the meivici is "The first truly custom, full carbon fiber bicycle frame ever built." simply isn't true. beyond not being true, to state such a thing then not explain it, show it, demonstrate it is not a good idea. based on what is known, at best the meivici is on par (custom-wise)with some kick-@ss bikes. a very good thing. but at worst, it has fewer custom options (as kkasper4 may soon discover.) so, at best, the meivici is on par with some awesome frames...yet it costs much more. if serotta can't explain how "The first truly custom, full carbon fiber bicycle frame ever built" is demonstratively true and superior, then why the thousands in price premium? a price sets an expectation. a statement like "The first truly custom, full carbon fiber bicycle frame ever built" sets an expectation. thus far, those expectations stand unexplained and possibly unsupported.

what serotta has done with the meivici is build a bike equal to some of the best bikes on the planet. if only their marketing had left it at that and let the bike speak for itself. my guess is the bike would speak more eloquently and persausively than any marketing verbiage.

but when you price something so far above parity products and make claims like "The first truly custom, full carbon fiber bicycle frame ever built" you have to expect some questions. when you don't answer those questions, you only get more questions.

serotta is like many clients who do their own marketing. outside viewpoints act as reality checks. 90% of clients want to make grand claims. a good agency puts itself in the customers' shoes and questions the claim, explores the claim, supports the claim or changes the claim.

the fault, dear brutus, lies not in meivici but the marketing. serotta has built something equal to anything out on the road now. that's a wonderful achievement. if only they had left it at that. and let others make the claims.

but hey, if i tried to build a frame, i'd sure are heck shoot myself in the foot too.

[SoCalSteve]

sandy, you haven't said too much. you're speaking clearly and honestly.

when the meivici was launched, builders like parlee, calfee and crumpton were building custom carbon frames that offered custom geo and tubing. so for serotta to claim that the meivici is "The first truly custom, full carbon fiber bicycle frame ever built." simply isn't true. beyond not being true, to state such a thing then not explain it, show it, demonstrate it is not a good idea. based on what is known, at best the meivici is on par (custom-wise)with some kick-@ss bikes. a very good thing. but at worst, it has fewer custom options (as kkasper4 may soon discover.) so, at best, the meivici is on par with some awesome frames...yet it costs much more. if serotta can't explain how "The first truly custom, full carbon fiber bicycle frame ever built" is demonstratively true and superior, then why the thousands in price premium? a price sets an expectation. a statement like "The first truly custom, full carbon fiber bicycle frame ever built" sets an expectation. thus far, those expectations stand unexplained and possibly unsupported.

what serotta has done with the meivici is build a bike equal to some of the best bikes on the planet. if only their marketing had left it at that and let the bike speak for itself. my guess is the bike would speak more eloquently and persausively than any marketing verbiage.

but when you price something so far above parity products and make claims like "The first truly custom, full carbon fiber bicycle frame ever built" you have to expect some questions. when you don't answer those questions, you only get more questions.

serotta is like many clients who do their own marketing. outside viewpoints act as reality checks. 90% of clients want to make grand claims. a good agency puts itself in the customers' shoes and questions the claim, explores the claim, supports the claim or changes the claim.

the fault, dear brutus, lies not in meivici but the marketing. serotta has built something equal to anything out on the road now. that's a wonderful achievement. if only they had left it at that. and let others make the claims.

but hey, if i tried to build a frame, i'd sure are heck shoot myself in the foot too.

I think the fault lies in the price. At that price, you would expect something that no other bike company can do. We all know that other bike companies can do what is being done by Serotta and for much less $$$.

I cannot imagine that a Crumpton or Parlee (or any other custom CF bike builder) with the same geometry as a Mevici will ride any better, be any stiffer, be lighter, etc, etc, etc...

Again, the arguement is in the price.

And to my eyes, an Ottrott (which IS truly infinetly customizable) and a few thousand $$$ less (and has the ST stays) is a better deal than a carbon fiber bike that has limitations on what you can do with its geometry.

Just one man's opinion (for what its worth).

Steve

[SPOKE]

Come on over for a drink and a ride on your OTTROTT, We can go "borrow" SPOKES Meivici for you.
PETE

Pete, Pete, Pete.......you gotta stop trying to loan out my MeiVici. it's not part of the demo fleet or a rental unit :no:

[stevep]

Pete, Pete, Pete.......you gotta stop trying to loan out my MeiVici. it's not part of the demo fleet or a rental unit :no:

hey spoke,
pete let me use your meivici for the summer.
when can i pick it up?
s

[Ginger]

Pete, Pete, Pete.......you gotta stop trying to loan out my MeiVici. it's not part of the demo fleet or a rental unit :no:

Wow...a bike that Spoke won't loan out.

That's gotta be a first!

[Serpico]

okay, I talked with Mr. Serotta today. Apparently the copy was 'infinitely discussable', but an error was made by the printing co. The goal was to create a frame that could be mulled over repeatedly, from various perspectives.

Hope this clears everything up.

[swoop]

Now lets talk:

Does Coke add life or not?

[manet]

.

[Sandy]

I once started a very active thread about the price of the MeiVici. I wondered later if I really should have dont this on Serotta's own website. But I will make a few comments relative to price of the MeiVici, and how it relates to the initial post of the thread.

1. Serotta makes its price. If that price is acceptable to you, then you buy the bike. If not, you don't. Plain and simple.

2. I can afford to buy a MeiVici but never will, because it costs more than I am willing to pay for any bike. That being a function of my cycling ability, lack of serious cycling presently, age, health issues, and cycling and personal goals.A MeiVici simply won't work for me. An all steel CDA will. I really don't think that the MeiVici would be so much more enjoyable to justify such a premium to other fine bicycles- Serottas and non-Serottas.

3. Serotta has no responsibility to justify the MeiVici's price or justify the MeiVici's price differences compared to other carbon manufacturers.

4. I do question Serotta's marketing of the MeiVici. Both verbal communication and written communication suggests, to me, statements have been made, relative to the MeiVici's customization which simply might not be toally accurate and/or simply not be true. That disappoints me some. Perhaps Serotta feels quite comfortable with all of its communications relative to the MeiVici. It is your choice as to whether you feel comfortable enough with said communication to purchase said bike. Serotta prices it.Your cash buys it.

5. Serotta may or may not be satisfied with how it is marketing the MeiVici. I think that said marketing needs greater accuracy in communication. Serotta and you are on opposite sids of the fence. One sells. One purchases. Sellers and purchasers have different needs. Serotta's needs probably generate communications which are not totally compatible with potential purchasers, who seem to have increasing purchasing choices, even in custom bicycles.


Sandy

[Sandy]

okay, I talked with Mr. Serotta today. Apparently the copy was 'infinitely discussable', but an error was made by the printing co. The goal was to create a frame that could be mulled over repeatedly, from various perspectives.

Hope this clears everything up.

I don't understand what you are saying. Not at all. Sorry.


Stupid Sandy

[vaxn8r]

I'm sure we could unbury all the threads regarding the value of the Ottrott over the Legend that existed 3-4 years ago. Same story different bikes.

There is no bike which is infinitely customizable. Some have more options than others. That's about it. Most of us have a line drawn somewhere between price and perceived value. Some have no limits as long as the "thing" is perceived to be the "best". That's the market Serotta is going for ATMO.

[SPOKE]

Wow...a bike that Spoke won't loan out.

That's gotta be a first!

kinda scary isn't it?? the other one in the collection that won't get loaned out is the Sachs.


hey spoke,
pete let me use your meivici for the summer.
when can i pick it up?

short answer.......most likely NEVER unless you have something that i want to try out.

[Sandy]

Serotta has very large start up costs with production of the MeiVici and its other full carbon fiber, carbon lugged bikes. There is a certain need to maintain large margins in order to be able to absorb such costs, make acceptable profits, and be able to compete effectively in the future. Serotta must be having increased competition in its custom designed bikes. Marketing is used to generate the greatest interest possible in the MeiVici and sell MeiVicis with as large a profit as possible. Maybe that allows or necessitates Serotta to be a little loose in its communication about the MeiVici.

Maybe I am simply clueless about it all.


Sandy

[swoop]

hey, it smells like a pine forrest.

[kkasper4]

I'm sure we could unbury all the threads regarding the value of the Ottrott over the Legend that existed 3-4 years ago. Same story different bikes.

There is no bike which is infinitely customizable. Some have more options than others. That's about it. Most of us have a line drawn somewhere between price and perceived value. Some have no limits as long as the "thing" is perceived to be the "best". That's the market Serotta is going for ATMO.


"Infinitely" was a poor choice of words on my part. The question I should of ask is if the Meivici is truly the "most customizable" carbon frame on the market. My bad. I initially thought yes, and was willing to pay the premium over other custom carbon frames. Now I'm not sure of anything.

[djg]

Fully customizeable? Infinitely variable?

Is anybody upset because they won't make one out of cheese? Or round? Or both (I guess that would be a wheel of cheese)?

Will they make it fit and ride the way the buyer wants? Will they finish it just the way the buyer wants? I'm just not quite getting this thread.

[dbrk]

Serotta has very large start up costs with production of the MeiVici and its other full carbon fiber, carbon lugged bikes. [....snip...] Maybe that allows or necessitates Serotta to be a little loose in its communication about the MeiVici.
Maybe I am simply clueless about it. Sandy


I think Sandy is not at all clueless and that neither he nor I (or anyone else here!!) is disparaging our fine hosts. The marketing copy is a bit over the top in its claims imho but that's also not unusual in the bike business. It gets problematic when your dreams/plans run into what is actually possible, what might be really going on, and how it compares with other choices.

Meivici is a remarkable bicycle as well as feat of engineering. It's also being sold with claims that invite our scrutiny and consideration. That's happened with real civility in this thread. If this bike is to be a good choice for you, then you'll have to sort through the language. Buying a bike is as much about relationship and passion as it is about performance and results.

I think Sandy has put his finger on important issues, as particularly has Climb. There's a lot here worth reflection.

dbrk
[just finished my one day at the San Jose bike show but going to bed when I should go hang out with friends...too tired...g'night!]

[manet]

.

[af2004]

Hey

you would spend 8k for one Frame (many people buy 3-4 Bikes for this money :rolleyes: ) and then there is this problem with the Toptube slope. :no: :no:

I love Serotta but, this is not my imaging of a "full" customable Frame.

[Climb01742]

Buying a bike is as much about relationship and passion as it is about performance and results.

i think douglas has hit something. sandy and i both hold serotta in very high esteem. i think they are as good and sincere and substantial (meaning...dedicated to substance) of a company as there is in the bike biz. some of what has surrounded the meivici seems out of character to me. but as sandy said, maybe i'm clueless and missing something too.

for the last 4 or 5 years, i've always owned a serotta, sometimes a few. i just sold the last one i had. for the first time in years i don't have one. i would like to have one. in part to support the company. to support ben, who is a great great guy. to thank them for this forum. to thank them for the friends i've made through it. sadly, and this genuinely bums me, there isn't a bike in their line-up that i lust for or can see paying the asking price. this bums me.

[Serotta PETE]

Climb, so sorry to hear there is not bike in the "offerings" that you lust or would want.......I have friends that wish they could say that also, for their Ottrott, CDA, HSG, Legends, etc.....have left the checking account lighter BUT also has put big smiles on their face. Their wives wish they were more like you than like a kid in a candy store (SEROTTA's candy store)

Each of us is an individual and we need to respect each other's taste and views.. While I am unable to share your views of the SEROTTA Line and even the Meivici, I do respect them. That is what makes the world an exciting place. Hopefully you will "see the lust factor" of SEROTTA sometime down the road.

Please come to the OPEN HOUSE, you do not need a SEROTTA.

i think douglas has hit something. sandy and i both hold serotta in very high esteem. i think they are as good and sincere and substantial (meaning...dedicated to substance) of a company as there is in the bike biz. some of what has surrounded the meivici seems out of character to me. but as sandy said, maybe i'm clueless and missing something too.

for the last 4 or 5 years, i've always owned a serotta, sometimes a few. i just sold the last one i had. for the first time in years i don't have one. i would like to have one. in part to support the company. to support ben, who is a great great guy. to thank them for this forum. to thank them for the friends i've made through it. sadly, and this genuinely bums me, there isn't a bike in their line-up that i lust for or can see paying the asking price. this bums me.

[Smiley]

We have 5 Serotta's currently here at Casa El Capitain , owned even more over the years and lust for a few more to own. We will be at the Open House Pete and will love to meet all you LUSTERS out there just like us :)

[92degrees]

I mostly stay out of the tuna fish sandwich threads, but would offer this: when I bought my Ottrott three years ago I clearly sensed that there was a vibe here of "the Ottrott is overpriced and overhyped." Now I don't feel that on the forum at all. I also think it's intersting, as a sloping TT guy that endures the weekly "sloping TTs are fugly" threads, that folks here are saying that it's a shame that the MeiVici isn't available in a wider range of slopes.

beer and bananas for all! :beer: :banana:

[Ti Designs]

sadly, and this genuinely bums me, there isn't a bike in their line-up that i lust for or can see paying the asking price. this bums me.


Your perspective changes with the number of bikes you own. A season ago I didn't own a road bike. I don't know that I would say I lusted after a new Serotta, but I clearly wanted one badly enough to pay the asking price. Now, with one Serotta in my basement I thought about getting another. I like the tubeset on the HSG Ti and thought about the idea of a MFG (My F_______ Geometry). Is this lust? At the end of the day I had to ask myself what two bikes would get me that one didn't - less space in my basement. And why would I ask about what it gets me at the end of the day when I ride in the morning??? OK, slightly off track there... Here's my suggestion: Ignore the 400,000 square foot storage facility you must have back there somewhere to house all your bikes for a day or so - pretend it doesn't exist. Now open up the new 2007 Serotta catalog (note to the Serotta folks, get moving on the catalog, Climb is just itching to support Ben) and see if something in there doesn't cause just a little lust. This is best done on a 70 degree day with a calm breeze blowing, while you're trying to ignore all those other bikes and watching the other cyclists ride past your house...


Now, for all of you complaining about the lack of options in top tube slope, I've found a solution - it's called a hill! If you ride up a steep hill you get lots of slope, when you ride back down you could be on a level top tube bike! here's the kicker, you don't so much notice it on your own bike, so you have to drag a bunch of friends up the hill with you.

[Serotta PETE]

Now, for all of you complaining about the lack of options in top tube slope, I've found a solution - it's called a hill! If you ride up a steep hill you get lots of slope, when you ride back down you could be on a level top tube bike! here's the kicker, you don't so much notice it on your own bike, so you have to drag a bunch of friends up the hill with you.


I love that quote......>SMILEY AND I will buy you beers at the OPEN HOUSE with SANDY's money. ;)

[Sandy]

I love that quote......>SMILEY AND I will buy you beers at the OPEN HOUSE with SANDY's money. ;)

I think you better get my money early on the first day. I think that Serotta has special plans for Climb and me. It could be ugly...... :)


Sandy

[Serotta PETE]

I think you better get my money early on the first day. I think that Serotta has special plans for Climb and me. It could be ugly...... :)


Sandy


It will not be ugly....Out of respect for the individual and the love of the sport, all are welcome to their opinion. (AND PLEASE COME TO OPEN HOUSE!!!)

I still love & lust the Serotta Portfolio of bikes and even have a new legend coming from Andrew, Kelly, and MIKE at CYCLESPORT>

My offical repsonse is that I only have one bike BUT this thread is causing me to change that for this one time. I have a Meivici that has about 800 miles on it - - AND it is the best riding bike I have been on in many years.

This is just my opinion and I respect that it might not be to others liking. BUT THEN I LIKE/LUST OTTROTTs, LEGENDS, STEEL also. It does not mean others are inferior just different. I Love/Lust most of DOUGLAS's collection. Bikes from Goodrich, Kellogg, Kirk, Sachs, etc are also lust/work of art!!!

The Mevici that was built had tubing tuned for the ride I wanted and could not be better. MIKE(CYCLESPORT) and KELLY nailed it!!! I have the level top tube and it was able to be tailored via tubes, angles, lengthof tubes, etc....to a top tier ride. At the same time they did an OTTROTT for my friend and he is an animal on it (a big smiling animal)

Value is in the eye of the beholder so price is something I am going to stay away from _ BUT I have no regrets.

Serottas remind me alot of PORSCHE 997/911 etc....You are paying for the engineering, history, reputation, AND SMILE it puts on "your" face. If that smile is not there - then you should not buy it...

.BUT COME RIDE at the OPEN HOUSE on any bike that puts that smile on your face!!!! Sandy and CLimb, we do not love you less for anything you say. Bailey feels the same, as long as you let him keep the bagel!!

Had a great 40 mile ride today and I am counting the days till the HAMPSTEN CAMP and the wine with my good friend TOM B. (Maybe Jack will also have time to stop by.) For any others that can make a day trip or an over night, you can crash in my room, if the INN is full.

PETE

[rpm]

Sigh, this is another example of the shortcomings of Serotta's website and marketing copy. It's a shame because most bike companies are nothing but marketing, simply slapping their names and some little aesthetic nuance on the frames that come off the same few Taiwanese assembly lines. Serrotta, in contrast, invests its money in genuinely superior technology, rather than hype. That's to be admired and communicated.

Unfortunately, they compete in a marketplace where every single carbon bike company claims that their carbon frame has some unique advantage. For example, Jamis touts its "advanced monocoque construction" and specially engineered "TRIAD" layups" "applied precisely (DYAD)". Raleigh talks about their new "A.C.E. Evolution/Direct Connect" carbon technology that allows for "carbon tubes to be bound together directly-reducing extra strength and increases stiffness". Then there's O.C.L.V., Zertz, carbon rooting, nanotechnology, etc.

Serotta needs to do something to stand out amidst all this hype and baloney. It needs copy that acknowledges the questions that consumers will naturally ask and write copy that addresses those questions, along the lines of "Everyone claims that their carbon technology is superior. Ours really is. Here's why." "Our frames cost more than other people's carbon frames. Here's why:" and "Other people offer custom-sized carbon frames. Ours are better. Here's why".

Sadly, perhaps, Serotta needs to divert some of the money that goes into developing a superior product into getting some copy that forthrightly and faithfully portrays that superiority.

And as a small p.s., it seems that prospective Meivici buyers typically already own at least one high-end Serotta. Mercy, Serotta should treat these folks like absolute royalty, by offering all kinds of perks and VIP service, starting with say, a 10% repeat customer discount (Carl Strong offers this, and it's one of the reasons I bought a second bike from him) and expedited service and special access to the Serotta team. Customer satisfaction isn't enough; you need customer loyalty and enthusiasm/evangelism.

[manet]

...

Had a great 40 mile ride today and I am counting the days till the HAMPSTEN CAMP and the wine with my good friend TOM B. (Maybe Jack will also have time to stop by.) For any others that can make a day trip or an over night, you can crash in my room, if the INN is full.

PETE

wha?!

[swoop]

this thread has rocked my world. do you mean to tell me that when my mom gives me a card that says that i am "the best son in the world".... that it's possible that by taking it as fact that i am missing the point?
because i was going to put it on my myspace and don't want to open up to any misrepresentation.

next you are going to tell me that litespeed is not the leader in cycle technology. thank goodness cannondale is the evolution of testing and all day comfort. are nanotubes even really nanotubes? is quality the soul of colnago (and does russ deny put the soul back in them when he's re-gluing the lugs and tubes that come apart for them in socal?).

end rant.
i'm bitter.. i destroyed my pernium racing too many crits today. FIRE! so.. take it with a lil sugar.

*edit.. meivicis are an accomplishment in materials and bike making stuff. i'd kill for one.. just show me who...

[stevep]

i vote to let this thing die.
it just seems ungracious to me to sit on the website that ben is paying for and criticize his products, his marketing, his product development, his engineering, his pricing.
please let it go.
the folks who have the bikes love them.
all in all i think thats probably enough...and all you can hope for.

one last question:
if swoop talks to himself does that mean he's in therapy?
cause he's talking to himself now.

[Fat Robert]

you're busting balls over some incredibly unimportant crap, imho

either buy the bike or don't

[regularguy412]

+1 FWIW

Re: opinion of SteveP & Fat Robert

[Jack Brunk]

+1 FWIW

Re: opinion of SteveP & Fat Robert
+1

Give it a rest.

[catulle]

Pete,

I can not drink RED. Is white wine an acceptable substitute?Jeff

Wine's red or it ain't wine, atmo... :beer:

[SPOKE]

yes i'm planting a little bomb here........

if you really want a MeiVici and can afford to spend the bucks for one yet choose to pruchase a Parlee, Colnago, Crumpton or some other carbon bike YOU WILL ALWAYS WONDER WHAT YOU'RE MISSING :banana: :banana:

[Ginger]

and I am counting the days till the HAMPSTEN CAMP and the wine with my good friend TOM B. (Maybe Jack will also have time to stop by.) For any others that can make a day trip or an over night, you can crash in my room, if the INN is full.

PETE

Dang, I'm bummed I'm stuck in school. I'd really rather be at the Hampsten camp!

:(

Have an extra glass of red for me, K Pete? Tom?

stevep,
I think swoop just likes sharing TMI with the serotta board.

P.S. I saw a Meivici in person. No bike might be worth that much, but if there is one, Serotta has it in the Meivici.

[Jack Brunk]

Pete,

I'll come up for a day and will bring one of the regions gems for us to taste.

Jack

[vaxn8r]

....And as a small p.s., it seems that prospective Meivici buyers typically already own at least one high-end Serotta. Mercy, Serotta should treat these folks like absolute royalty, by offering all kinds of perks and VIP service, starting with say, a 10% repeat customer discount (Carl Strong offers this, and it's one of the reasons I bought a second bike from him) and expedited service and special access to the Serotta team. Customer satisfaction isn't enough; you need customer loyalty and enthusiasm/evangelism.
I don't understand why everyone doesn't offer this. If 10% is too much make it 5%. I think repeat business from customers who feel valued would be strong.

[DarrenCT]

I don't understand why everyone doesn't offer this. If 10% is too much make it 5%. I think repeat business from customers who feel valued would be strong.

v-good point imho

[SoCalSteve]

yes i'm planting a little bomb here........

if you really want a MeiVici and can afford to spend the bucks for one yet choose to pruchase a Parlee, Colnago, Crumpton or some other carbon bike YOU WILL ALWAYS WONDER WHAT YOU'RE MISSING :banana: :banana:

I know what you will NOT be missing...a few thousand $$$ left over in your wallet.

Just sayin'

[Jeff N.]

yes i'm planting a little bomb here........

if you really want a MeiVici and can afford to spend the bucks for one yet choose to pruchase a Parlee, Colnago, Crumpton or some other carbon bike YOU WILL ALWAYS WONDER WHAT YOU'RE MISSING :banana: :banana:Ain't no wonderin' about it....about four G's, that's what I'd be missing! FOUR THOUSAND American DOLLARS! Y'all 'er killin' me. Them dancin' bananas aren't called for in this case. Jeff N.

[Serotta PETE]

Sounds great,,,,,just can't let TOM be too close to it.


See you then

PETE


Pete,

I'll come up for a day and will bring one of the regions gems for us to taste.

Jack

[Serotta PETE]

Please let the thread die,,,,, I promise to bring extra red to OPEN HOUSE and a BAGEL for SANDY.

THANKS



i vote to let this thing die.
it just seems ungracious to me to sit on the website that ben is paying for and criticize his products, his marketing, his product development, his engineering, his pricing.
please let it go.
the folks who have the bikes love them.
all in all i think thats probably enough...and all you can hope for.

one last question:
if swoop talks to himself does that mean he's in therapy?
cause he's talking to himself now.

[jbrainin]

Nazi.

According to pretty much any etiquette rules for the net, a thread is dead once someone uses the above word. Therefore, this thread has died. (Note that the usage of the word is in no way personal, just situational.)

[cpg]

i'm bitter.. i destroyed my pernium racing too many crits today. FIRE! so.. take it with a lil sugar.

*edit.. meivicis are an accomplishment in materials and bike making stuff. i'd kill for one.. just show me who...


Too much information! But how did you do?

Curt

[swoop]

oh, i'm always good for a top ten in at least one of three. and some 20buck primes.

the good thing was getting 2+ hours of intensity. that's the cool part.