Desperate...

[catulle]

.

[scrooge]

Those bars with the nice, wide, flat tops?

[catulle]

.

[mike p]

move saddle back?

Mike

[cpg]

Are you wearing gloves?

Curt

[Sandy]

Nope, Oval bars, classic shape.

How about trying a thicker tape with gel backing. Tape can make BIG difference. Using a little lower psi might help a little. Check to see how much pressure you apply to the bars as you ride.

Sandy

[scrooge]

Nope, Oval bars, classic shape.

I was actually suggesting that you try some. I know they're not cool, but hey...

[Grant McLean]

Numb hands comes from compression of the ulnar nerve (http://images.google.ca/images?hl=en&q=ulnar%20nerve&btnG=Google+Search&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&um=1&sa=N&tab=wi) .

Change your gloves, try something with padding in a different spot,
or with more or less padding than what you've been using.
Specialzed gloves are designed specifically with this in mind, but others
work too.

g

[cpg]

Maybe it's those Campy hoods? Nah!

Curt

[AgilisMerlin]

Double Wrap.


amerliN

[catulle]

.

[catulle]

.

[mike p]

4) I've been looking for the answer in the contact points/frame geometry direction. Is that a cul-de-sac...?

Move saddle back.

Mike

[djg21]

I need help. I can ride a bicycle all day long except for my hands which need to keep shifting positions on the bars or else the palms go numb. My legs never bother me, my neck doesn't crimp, my lower back keeps mute 90% of the time; my hands on the bars are my only sore point.

My most comfy bike has 6cm of saddle to bars drop. I have another bike with 4.5cm drop and it isn't more comfortable than the one with 6cm drop. Any suggestions, please? Thank you.

Is your saddle level? If not, try leveling it or adjusting it so it is slightly nose up.

[AgilisMerlin]

http://www.ssb6.net/users/41990/1_cream_60g.jpg

:banana:



amerliN

[nm87710]

1) 2) I don't wear gloves.

I'll go with the obvious diagnosis here and second Grant...

Handlebar palsey/ulnar nerve injury http://www.sportsinjurybulletin.com/archive/cycling-injuries.html

Wear gloves. Specialized mitts work well.

[Simon Q]

4) I've been looking for the answer in the contact points/frame geometry direction. Is that a cul-de-sac...?

Move saddle back.

Mike

Yep, you have too much weight on your hands vs rear, especially if less height on your other bike didn't help (ie it doesn't seem like height is the issue). Try moving saddle back until you are better balanced and have less weight on your hands. You should be able to ride without gloves and not too many issues if you have the right balance.

[Louis]

Is there a recommended range of weight distribution on the rear wheel?

If so, what is it?

That's easy enough to measure. (Using a few books jack up the tire that is not on the scale so you keep the bike horizontal, then flip things around to double check.)

Louis

[Ginger]

Try the gloves you have. I find specialized gloves cause more problem for me than they solve. Just like saddles, your mileage may vary... The gel might be too much. I find a minimal padding to be best for me.

Gloves have come a long way. Some are decent enough that they don't heat up much at all.

[Louis]

Some are decent enough that they don't heat up much at all.

I agree. I'll put St Louis summer heat & humidity against nearly anywhere else, and I still wear gloves for every ride and feel funny without them.

Plus. I've gone down enough times and picked the gravel out of the leather palms to know that they are there for more than just comfort.

[11.4]

You get pain or numbness in your hands from nerve compression anywhere up to where the ulnar nerve enters the spine. This means you can be dealing with a problem in your elbow, your shoulder, or at the neck. The latter is very often the suspicious site, since cycling tends to encourage bad neck posture. If you let your neck and head sag forward, or if you ride with your neck and head out of alignment with your back, or if your neck muscles are simply weak or out of balance, you are almost guaranteed hand problems. Mild physical therapy is usually the answer to this problem, along with improving your posture on the bike (and off). Your nerves from your lower cervical ganglia tend to give one all kinds of problems as one gets older, and a few accidents, a lot of riding, and so on all contribute to making these problems fairly pernicious. You may actually have a problem with your hands or wrists (typically a problem with the angle at which your wrist and hand is cocked at the bars), and you might have an unusual inflamed nerve sheath or ganglion in the hand that causes problems, but if so it will probably be one-handed only or at least much more significant on one hand.

Tape and gloves can help with really nasty road conditions, but handlebar position and general bike position are much more important, and even more so are the physical condition of your elbow musculature and your neck. Try a physical therapist before you get too frustrated. Some nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs can back the pain off a bit while the physical therapy kicks in. In a week you can be pain-free, and in a month of diligent PT you won't have to worry about the problem.

[Simon Q]

Is there a recommended range of weight distribution on the rear wheel?

If so, what is it?

That's easy enough to measure. (Using a few books jack up the tire that is not on the scale so you keep the bike horizontal, then flip things around to double check.)

Louis

From cyclingnews.com. Based on feel rather than metrics.

"Balance test"
Steve Hogg refers to a "balance test" repeatedly but I cannot find it using the search function. Could you provide me a reference to that balance test?

Steve Hogg replies:

Here is a simple explanation and rationale for it. As a generalisation, we have two types of external musculature, postural and phasic. Some muscles exhibit characteristics of both and there is still debate about details but it is not a bad generalisation. Postural muscles, as the name implies are like tent guy ropes. They allow us to hold a position whether it be static or dynamic. Phasic muscles generate power for movement and have indirect postural implications if at all. To complicate things somewhat, some postural muscles can be also used for power generation by operation phasically. Some examples of this are the hamstrings and gastrocs.

Neurologically, our brains have evolved to give absolute priority to postural musculature.

Assuming that you accept the above, then if we want to perform on a bike to potential, we need to sit on it in such a way as to minimise the enlistment of postural musculature. Simply, we need to be able to devote maximum effort neurologically and physiologically to propelling the bike and minimum effort to maintaining a position. Any extraneous effort involved in maintaining a position can only rob from the effort of propelling the bike. At 30kms an hour this is not particularly important because it is a low intensity effort, but if the goal is maximum efficiency, which is what high performance is about, then it is fundamental.

The only way to achieve this minimisation of postural musculature on a UCI legal bike is to have the seat set back far enough to allow the rider to cantilever their torso out from their pelvis while pedalling without unnecessary weight being borne by the arms, shoulders etc. There will be some effort required to steer and control the bike but we want to minimise that effort. Just how far back the seat needs to be varies massively from person to person depending on body proportions and above all, functionality and individual technique.

A simple example is that a particular rider may have a long torso and poor core strength and on the surface, poor ability to support their torso without a lot of seat setback. But if their back is inflexible and tends towards flexion in their pattern of tightness, then their effective torso length will be quite short and the seat will not have to be a long way back to allow them to support their torso.

The simplest way to explain this, and it is not a perfect explanation at all, is what I call the balance test. A rider should be able to ride with hands in the drops in a big gear at moderate rpm and take their hands off the bars without uncontrollably falling forward or having to arch their backs and / or swing their arms back to allow them to pass this test. They should teeter on the point of balance to some degree but be able to do it with some control.

The reason that this isn't a perfect test is because some people display marked pelvic assymetries on a bike. That means that they are inherently unstable on the seat and have evolved a method of stabilising themselves by using the shoulder complex and upper torso musculature to provide the stability that to some degree, they inherently lack. For those kind of people and there are plenty out there, then it becomes a matter of best possible compromise. They may never be able to pass the balance test as I have described it without substantial improvement in their levels of structural fitness but there will be an achievable compromise which will improve their efficiency and performance.

Assuming a reasonably functional rider can pass this test, there are gradations to being able to do it. For all but a few of these functional riders, having the seat setback far enough to allow them perfect no hands stability when riding in a 'drop bar' position will compromise their ability to pedal fluently at high rpm and hinder the speed of making a quick 'jump' from riding on the seat to sprinting off the seat. Conversely, if they are a little too far forward, then high rpm pedalling will be fine but ability to pedal in a high torque, low/moderate rpm style when necessary, will be affected negatively.

All of what I have said here goes hand in hand with the type of cleat positioning I am always on about because it plays its part in on seat stability.

[Louis]

From cyclingnews.com. Based on feel rather than metrics.


Interesting. Thanks Simon.

[malcolm]

The ulnar nerve only provides sensory innervation to the 5th finger and the lateral half of the 4th finger and I think the thenar eminence medially (fleshy part of the hand at the base of the thumb) to the base of the thumb. The thumb its self is provided sensory innervation by the radial nerve. Ulnar palsy from bikes generally involves the small finger and half of the ring not the thumb. I forgot the median nerve also innervates part of the thumb on the webspace side near the index finger.

[1centaur]

In the vein of the cyclingnews and move the saddle back advice:

you should tell us whether you are at least close to Hinault's prescription for riding as if you were playing piano keys on your bars. If you feel you are supporting a lot more weight than that there, then the saddle back advice is good - get more weight on your butt and legs and do stomach crunches to strengthen yours abs' ability to hold you up in the piano playing position. If you already feel you have a light touch on the bars, then 11.4's advice and/or gloves/tape may help, and I'll kick in potassium for free - nerve connections can be lessened if you lose too much in your sweat. Black strap molasses and bananas are good sources.

[Climb01742]

i had pretty severe pain in my right elbow. my PT found that the issue originated in my upper spine and muscles around my right shoulder blade. his work in that area has made a huge huge difference. i've also been strengthening my upper back (with various kinds of rowing lifts). strengthening your core helps too, but here my experience has been different: my trainer has done amazing things with my core strength without me doing a single crunch. FWIW, YMMV, but here's what my guy says (and he has a masters in kinesiology from uconn, the #1 kinesiology dept in usa): crunches are bogus. core strength needs to be developed in front, side and back. he has me do all sorts of complicated things that are too hard to explain but the simple tip is: front and side planks. move to planks with your forearms on a swiss ball, then palms on swiss ball with someone wiggling the ball, then finally to your hands on two, separate small medicine balls while doing a front plank. this is just one trainer's philosophy but i can personally attest to the amazing effectiveness of crunch-free core work.

[catulle]

.

[Too Tall]

Given what you said about the other bikes yada yada I'll take a stab and guess you could stand to go up one size in the stem. Assume setback is where you want it and saddle is the same as fav. bike.

[catulle]

.

[RPS]

I need help. I can ride a bicycle all day long except for my hands which need to keep shifting positions on the bars or else the palms go numb. My legs never bother me, my neck doesn't crimp, my lower back keeps mute 90% of the time; my hands on the bars are my only sore point.

My most comfy bike has 6cm of saddle to bars drop. I have another bike with 4.5cm drop and it isn't more comfortable than the one with 6cm drop. Any suggestions, please? Thank you.However you fix the problem, don’t let it get out of hand (no pun intended). I injured nerves in my left hand and lost significant strength and control for a period of about 4 to 6 months before it healed.

You mention that shifting positions prevents the problem; and I’d ask just how often you have to move. Is it possible you were not moving enough? I’d guess anyone would eventually go numb if they held the same position too long.

In my case I attribute the injury to going from not riding enough to riding way too much over a short period, and also in part to not moving my left hand around as much on very long rides. I wasn’t shifting my front derailleur much at all because of the type of riding I was doing which kept my left hand in one position for much longer periods than I was accustomed to. I now force myself to move around on the bike whether I need to or not -- and thus far it's worked.

[scrooge]

Given what you said about the other bikes yada yada I'll take a stab and guess you could stand to go up one size in the stem. Assume setback is where you want it and saddle is the same as fav. bike.


I was having similiar issues to you and assumed that it was my bar. But I recently flipped my stem (effectlively lengthening my reach, no?) because I was having a little pain in my neck and thought some more reach would be better--and whad'ya know--now that I think about it, I think it also took care of the palm issues.

I think this is interesting because some of us (read: me) assume that a shorter/higher reach is automatically going to be more comfortable. Apparently, this is not so...balance, balance, balance...

[93legendti]

1) I also have a bike with Ram bars (nice wide, flat, etc...), and the problem is pretty much the same.
2) I don't wear gloves. Living in the tropics gloves can be MP.
3) I bought some of the Fizik gel to try out but haven't because I thought they're kind'a ghey. Maybe I ought to give it a shot.
4) I've been looking for the answer in the contact points/frame geometry direction. Is that a cul-de-sac...?

Hopefully, you're kidding about the Fizik gel comment.

Ulnar nerve issues run in my family, my brother had his operated on and from time to time my hands bother me--usually from too much PC use. Anyway... for me, I changed the thickness of my tape, slightly moved my brake lever hoods and found the new PI gloves with the red gel with holes outstanding for hand issues. I'd rather be hot than in pain.

[catulle]

.

[93legendti]

Yes, I'm kidding about the Fizik gel comment. Something that I learned to do here (spelling included.) Thank you for your suggestions.

I figured that. Hopefully, some of the suggestions will do the trick. I know it is frustrating, because I am a guitarist and when my hands act up, playing can be painfull.

[catulle]

.

[KellyO]

Have you looked at the way that your holding your handlebar? Are you resting on that nice soft area of your palm below your pinky finger? I have found that "pinching" the hood between my thumb and index finger can relieve pressure on the outside of my palm helping to keep the blood flowing into the hand. keeping a loose grip with you hands. Wrists and elbows relaxed. Keeping the soft parts of your palm off the bar. Drumming your fingers...tapping them around your bar ensures that your grip is loose and promotes blood flow.
Kelly O

[93legendti]

I just finished St. John's book on Wayne Henderson's guitars (Clapton's Guitar), and also the one on D'Agostino and D'Aquisto guitars (Angels something or another...) Recommended reading, atmo...

Thanks for the heads up. If this is still your set up:




http://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=26618

I'd try flattening the transition from the bar top to the levers. Mine is really flat and seamless and that works best for my hands.

[Kevan]

Numb hands comes from compression of the ulnar nerve (http://images.google.ca/images?hl=en&q=ulnar%20nerve&btnG=Google+Search&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&um=1&sa=N&tab=wi) .

Change your gloves, try something with padding in a different spot,
or with more or less padding than what you've been using.
Specialzed gloves are designed specifically with this in mind, but others
work too. g


those cheaper no-name gloves often work better than the hi-zoot.

Otherwise....

http://www.siegelproductions.ca/ottawarocks/images/handlebars.jpg

[93legendti]

I have some ITM Millenium Grips lying around and just trying one out on a spare handlebar, it seems that they lessen the pressure on the lower part of my palm that gets sore form too much riding and/or PC work. I think I am going to throw these on a bike and see how they feel.

http://www.nashbar.com/profile.cfm?category=&subcategory=&brand=5042&sku=16988&storetype=&estoreid=&pagename=Shop%20by%20Brand%3A%20ITM