Mediocrity

[JohnS]

Has mediocrity become the norm? All you read about is companies doing badly and downsizing, yet giving their top execs bonuses. ***? I remember Pete McKeon saying in an old thread that very few CEO's add value to their company. Anyone can close plants and lay off workers to lower expenses, but how many push new products that people will buy to grow the company? Also, I remember when Al Kaline was the first Tiger to make $100K. Now, you have benchwarmers you've never heard of (and couldn't carry Al's jockstrap) who are millionaires. I just don't get it... :confused:
Rant over...

[Ozz]

bad day, JohnS?

They get the money cuz they can....Jack Welch pretty much said this when he was on Steven Colbert a couple months ago. He tried to make an argument about supply and demand that sounded pretty weak.

I figure you might have a handful of executive that are good. They set the bar for compensation, and everyone else gets paid off that scale whether they add value to the company or not.

Kinda like draft day in pro sports.....

[93legendti]

If Matt Millen can get a 2nd, five year term for $5 million/year, anything is possible.

[kestrel]

Has mediocrity become the norm? All you read about is companies doing badly and downsizing, yet giving their top execs bonuses. ***? I remember Pete McKeon saying in an old thread that very few CEO's add value to their company. Anyone can close plants and lay off workers to lower expenses, but how many push new products that people will buy to grow the company? Also, I remember when Al Kaline was the first Tiger to make $100K. Now, you have benchwarmers you've never heard of (and couldn't carry Al's jockstrap) who are millionaires. I just don't get it... :confused:
Rant over...

I would think most of us agree with your line of thinking, and when the majority agrees on something it usually gets corrected. I guess the majority really doesn't matter any longer, it's who owns the power base and obviously it's not the majority.

[zank]

I thought when Jeff took over for Jack, we would all be happy. Then Jeff decides to sell the business I work for. Go figure.

[Smiley]

I thought when Jeff took over for Jack, we would all be happy. Then Jeff decides to sell the business I work for. Go figure.
And which business is that Zank Plastics ?

Funny that Nardelli ex-Home Depot guy made more $$ leaving Home Depot then Jeff Imlet at GE .

[Sandy]

Mediocrity is not low enough. I am trying to obtain Really Bad status. I want the first 1 billion dollar contract!


$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$Sandy$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

[1centaur]

I'd say they get that money because the people on the board view the CEO as a mechanism to get the stock up and they don't really care how that happens. A great CEO can get it through making the right growth decisions and risk bets; an average one can cut costs semi-intelligently; a good one can cut costs without cutting out the competitive advantage of the company; a bad one makes growth bets that are wrong or badly executed.

The stock market votes on all those possibilities but into the mix go general market mood AND where the stock is coming from. Thus mediocre cost cutters can get incredibly rich because the stock was beaten down and the performance is better than a lot of other companies'. The CEO's contract is at the nexus of a little cut of a huge pot (market capitalization), which is where richness always occurs. Those guys can get rich through market sentiment but the Board prospectively can't structure a contract to weed out that element. Stock wealth feels like a free lunch to the Board, and in a $50 billion market cap company I guess $100MM kinda is. Adding $5B to the market cap is worth the $5MM of salary and bonus or whatever.

As to the more general question - yes mediocrity is increasing. That reflects a lot of things: average brains battling a more complex world; a lack of personal responsibility caused by decades of lax parenting; the abundance of food and entertainment that makes being good at something less vital for decent happiness; the rush of daily life that makes holding someone's feet to the fire number 15 on the priority list; the dumbing down of education thanks to decades of slack-jawed educators caring more about unionization and tenure than rigor (in part due to lax parenting); the standards of service implicit in hiring immigrants who are not good English speakers to replace anglos who can afford to do some fluffy, undemanding job, etc.

Thank goodness we still have Serotta refusing to accept mediocrity.

[atmo]

Has mediocrity become the norm?
veer -
i'll throw this out there and then go to nahbs and set
up the twizzlers point-of-purchase display atmo:

mediocrity? to dovetail off of another board thread,
mediocrity, to me, is the consumer base's acceptance
of compact frames as industry's way of streamlining
manufacturing and have fewer sku's for retailers, all in
the four sizes fits most approach to getting folks on
bicycles. accepting this is endorsing mediocrity atmo.

as they might say in the east, frame away - i'll don my
nomex suit atmo. later.

[zank]

And which business is that Zank Plastics ?

Funny that Nardel ex-Home Depot guy made more then Jeff

Yes, sir. I have worked for plastics since '98, not counting my brief stint away in '03 to work for the other "S" company that builds cool ti bikes. And then I went back.

[rdparadise]

A lot of CEO's have made a boatload of cash by way of stock options. Those are now being accounted for on P & L's as expense so the paradigm has shifted. I believe this one accounting change will cause the CEO's compensation to go down. We won't be seeing 10's of thousands of options as in the past, but rather, outright grants of shares at today's value put on the P & L. This has caused companies to pull back dramatically on the number of shares awarded because of the shear impact to the P & L.

Additionally, you may have heard the rumblings that the Dems in DC want to do something about CEO compensation. While legislatively they probably won't get anything done on the issue, having the issue brought to this level of public awareness will definitely impact their comp in the future. Just wait and see.

Chumps sitting on the bench making $2m a year is a way of life in sports. The economics allow for this to happen and arbitration and free agency have made it this way. Sorry.... :rolleyes:

Bob

[LegendRider]

I'd say they get that money because the people on the board view the CEO as a mechanism to get the stock up and they don't really care how that happens. A great CEO can get it through making the right growth decisions and risk bets; an average one can cut costs semi-intelligently; a good one can cut costs without cutting out the competitive advantage of the company; a bad one makes growth bets that are wrong or badly executed.

The stock market votes on all those possibilities but into the mix go general market mood AND where the stock is coming from. Thus mediocre cost cutters can get incredibly rich because the stock was beaten down and the performance is better than a lot of other companies'. The CEO's contract is at the nexus of a little cut of a huge pot (market capitalization), which is where richness always occurs. Those guys can get rich through market sentiment but the Board prospectively can't structure a contract to weed out that element. Stock wealth feels like a free lunch to the Board, and in a $50 billion market cap company I guess $100MM kinda is. Adding $5B to the market cap is worth the $5MM of salary and bonus or whatever.

As to the more general question - yes mediocrity is increasing. That reflects a lot of things: average brains battling a more complex world; a lack of personal responsibility caused by decades of lax parenting; the abundance of food and entertainment that makes being good at something less vital for decent happiness; the rush of daily life that makes holding someone's feet to the fire number 15 on the priority list; the dumbing down of education thanks to decades of slack-jawed educators caring more about unionization and tenure than rigor (in part due to lax parenting); the standards of service implicit in hiring immigrants who are not good English speakers to replace anglos who can afford to do some fluffy, undemanding job, etc.

Thank goodness we still have Serotta refusing to accept mediocrity.

Well put. And, of course, CEOs sit on each other's Boards and compensation committees, and they take care of their friends.

[Ken Robb]

interlocking boards of directors have a bit to do with it. "You be on my board and vote me a huge pay package and I'll sit on your board and do the same for you" said one CEO to another. It doesn't even have to be that direct a connection. If boards are made up of CEOs it often behooves them to vote big pay for those companies thereby establishing high precedents when their incentive package comes up for review.

Unfortunately many of the packages reward short-term numbers rather than long-term prosperity for the company. Oh well, it beats Stalin's 5 Year plans! :rolleyes:

[72gmc]

the rush of daily life that makes holding someone's feet to the fire number 15 on the priority list

This is a big factor in my view. This and the fact that the U.S. culture in particular is predicated on celebrating and/or aggrandizing and/or making something out of nothing way too much, just for the sake of buzz. In many cases we've traded legitimate standards and valid expectations for buzz. Many realize this but few actually do anything about it--the rest of us are too busy trying to keep up with the world we've created.

[93legendti]

If Jennifer Granholm can get a 2nd, four year term, anything is possible.

[JohnS]

Mediocrity is not low enough. I am trying to obtain Really Bad status. I want the first 1 billion dollar contract!


$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$Sandy$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
It's not in the salary, it's in the fringes...you get Kevan! :)

[JohnS]

If Jennifer Granholm can get a 2nd, four year term, anything is possible.
It was her or Mr. Amway...I kept looking for "None Of The Above" on the ballot and couldn't find it.
PS-When are you going to invite me to one of your fundraisers so that I can hobnob with the generals? :D

[93legendti]

It was her or Mr. Amway...I kept looking for "None Of The Above" on the ballot and couldn't find it.
PS-When are you going to invite me to one of your fundraisers so that I can hobnob with the generals? :D

The next one we have, you are in. I have a local friend here who was in the special forces --amazingly, his wife didn't know! Pretty boring hobnobbing with him, every story ends quickly, "sorry, that's classified". :(

[zank]

As to the more general question - yes mediocrity is increasing. That reflects a lot of things: average brains battling a more complex world

Sorry to stray, but this tickled me. I was reading some lecture notes the other day. At one point, the lecturer said that humans may never grasp or be able to determine a theory for everything. We, as a species, may not have the capacity. He said "It's like asking a rabbit to learn calculus."

I guess some CEOs are like rabbits.

[Grant McLean]

There's an interesting series running on PBS called newswar (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/newswar/view/)
This week's installment contained a piece on the L.A.Times and the ownership
by the Tribune Corp, and their battle with the publisher/editors of the paper.

Many of the issues regarding the future of the paper revolve around the arguement
between those who want to make 'news' and those who want to make 'money'.

Dean Baquet was the editor (before they fired him for refusing to make more cuts)

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/newswar/interviews/baquet.html#1

It's an interesting interview. atmo

g

[Tom]

Them teachers. Yup, must be the teacher's fault if my kid is an idiot.

Them furriners. They talk funny. Must be their fault.

[1centaur]

I spread the blame around. 80% of the teachers my son have had in his 11 grades were some combination of not too bright and clearly unprofessional (return the quiz before the test? I'm too busy, and I refuse to recognize the need). This in a state and town with reputations for great schools (self pandering backslapping). Kids taught by dopes are handicapped in the mediocrity sweepstakes by definition. Note I did blame the parenting in part for the difficulty teachers have in turning out properly educated students. And let me be clear that great teachers are a treasure for all of us - it's just that most teachers are very far from great and too far from talented.

As for furriners, you missed my point. When it becomes okay to get service from marginal users of the language, it becomes acceptable to get service from anglos who are equivalently bad in other ways. Mediocrity in service is the result.

[Climb01742]

accountability is lacking almost everywhere, from the white house to VA hospitals to corner offices. accountability is a character trait. when it is absent, i don't know how to create it in someone.

[zank]

not at all mediocre, care of Peter Weigle.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/183/406977762_1fdaf16189_o.jpg

[cpg]

Yea baby! Nothing mediocre there. Careful with that thing though. It could poke out an eye.

Curt

[catulle]

I'm more concerned with the mediocrity (if not outright incompetence) of the country's CEO, atmo... Oh, all CEOs are kind'a related, right? Sorry, my wrong. :butt:

[harlond]

Has mediocrity become the norm? . . . Also, I remember when Al Kaline was the first Tiger to make $100K. Now, you have benchwarmers you've never heard of (and couldn't carry Al's jockstrap) who are millionaires. I just don't get it... :confused:
Rant over...This is off-post, I suppose, but it seems to me that nothing about baseball or baseball salaries indicates that mediocrity is becoming the norm (though, come to think of it, isn't that a tautalogical question?). Every player that makes the major leagues has gone through an extraordinarily demanding process to convince his team that he belongs in the bigs. For every one that makes it, there may be hundreds that didn't. A benchwarmer may appear mediocre when judged against the likes of Clemens or Pujols or any other good ML player. But make no mistake, that benchwarmer is one of the best players in the world. He is mediocre only in comparison to the most elite group of baseball players in the world. Outside that context, the ML benchwarmer is an athlete of extraordinary excellence. The rare skills he possesses are useful in an industry to which much money flows. His salary makes economic sense and says nothing about mediocrity in the society at large. Al Kaline's? Probably was represssed by anticompetitive market forces.

Now I should say, rant over.

[RPS]

We are all to blame, and I have proof.

However, because I’m only a naturalized American, I’ll keep my opinion to myself for fear it won’t come across as intended.

[JohnS]

[QUOTE=harlond] But make no mistake, that benchwarmer is one of the best players in the world. He is mediocre only in comparison to the most elite group of baseball players in the world. Outside that context, the ML benchwarmer is an athlete of extraordinary excellence.
QUOTE]Yeah, but he's just playing a game.

[atmo]

We are all to blame, and I have proof.

However, because I’m only a naturalized American, I’ll keep my opinion to myself for fear it won’t come across as intended.
that's all the more reason to opine.
and i will add...
it will be atyo atmo.

[J.Greene]

Sports comp is not a good comparison to CEO comp. High profile athletes bring sponsor dollars, fan dollars,tv dollars etc. The owners who pay or overpay them are making an investment, not unlike serotta buying a piece of machinery, (except a Bridgeport does not come with a posse and refer to a woman as a ho). :beer:

CEO comp is another ball of wax.

JG

[Kevan]

It's not in the salary, it's in the fringes...you get Kevan! :)

What did I ever do to deserve this?

Gemme a golden parachute packed by anyone other than that Sandy man.

[Serpico]

I would think most of us agree with your line of thinking, and when the majority agrees on something it usually gets corrected. I guess the majority really doesn't matter any longer, it's who owns the power base and obviously it's not the majority.

I agree with your comments. I'm basically a cautiously-optimistic realist . It's just the 'getting there' (ie correction) that takes awhile.

regards

[Sheldon4209]

Originally Posted by 1 centaur "Kids taught by dopes are handicapped in the mediocrity sweepstakes by definition. Note I did blame the parenting in part for the difficulty teachers have in turning out properly educated students. And let me be clear that great teachers are a treasure for all of us - it's just that most teachers are very far from great and too far from talented."

As a teacher for 34 years, I don't agree with that. I observe many dedicated teachers working hard but with students doing less and less. Parents not only don't support schools, they openly criticize teachers to their children. Most people have no idea of the challenges that schools face. The problems in schools reflect our society, and there does not appear to be any improvement in sight.

My wife/stoker earned three college degrees including a law degree and chooses to teach. I majored in biology and chemistry at Purdue and have a master’s degree. I have not considered anyone would think either of us as "dopes."
Sheldon
P.S. Thank goodness the Lilly Endowment didn't think we were incompetent. Check out http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/1875

[BumpyintheBurgh]

We are all to blame, and I have proof.

However, because I’m only a naturalized American, I’ll keep my opinion to myself for fear it won’t come across as intended.


Don't worry RPS, we're all neutralized Americans. We can voice our opinions and cast our votes... it still doesn't make any difference. He who has the money, has the power.

[stevep]

dont use sports for any of this. these athletes are entertainers and people pay to see them play. i laugh when some sob w/ great hand-eye coordination walks around the bases cause he doesnt feel like running while some jackass bond trader is paying him 20 mil a year. god bless him. call me robin hood.

the ceo thing is a group of fat white guys sitting in a room voting for each others raises and plundering their companies. loss of jobs, loss of security and no one left to buy the chevy malibus.

i agree w/ sheldon on the teachers. used to teach. tough job...
all tv/ media/ fox/ video gaming/budget issues/ special needs requirements.
its just not that easy to make it all come out right.
dont blame the teachers for having a say in it. dont blame the teachers when the parents dont get the job done.... it takes a village, hmmm might write a book.
im not smart enough to fix it in a paragraph...but i recognize the problem.

[1centaur]

Originally Posted by 1 centaur "Kids taught by dopes are handicapped in the mediocrity sweepstakes by definition. Note I did blame the parenting in part for the difficulty teachers have in turning out properly educated students. And let me be clear that great teachers are a treasure for all of us - it's just that most teachers are very far from great and too far from talented."

As a teacher for 34 years, I don't agree with that. I observe many dedicated teachers working hard but with students doing less and less. Parents not only don't support schools, they openly criticize teachers to their children. Most people have no idea of the challenges that schools face. The problems in schools reflect our society, and there does not appear to be any improvement in sight.

My wife/stoker earned three college degrees including a law degree and chooses to teach. I majored in biology and chemistry at Purdue and have a master’s degree. I have not considered anyone would think either of us as "dopes."
Sheldon
P.S. Thank goodness the Lilly Endowment didn't think we were incompetent. Check out http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/1875

Last time I'll post in this thread:

Neither you nor your wife sounds like a dope. Many teachers work hard (though 100% say they do, and hard work alone is worth very little). Already stipulated to parents not always doing their jobs, though I am living in a town of upwardly mobile professionals who clearly value education and who work to support the schools and impress on their children the need to study hard and do well on tests, so I'm guessing in our town it's relatively easier to deal with students.

That said, your lack of dopeness is utterly irrelevant to the point that people taught by dopes are not likely to turn out well in the aggregate. The opposite of mediocrity is high standards. Those come from people with high standards of personal achievement pushing others to have the same. My experience year after painful year is that our public school teachers have a great tendency to be unprofessional in their dealings with students ("come see me after class in my mandated office hours - oh whoops, left for the day to coach the tennis team - hope you do well on the test tomorrow"), personally lazy in their approach to their jobs, and relatively bad at the act of teaching, as opposed to presenting. I know a couple of teachers who strongly agree with this view. I have talked to teachers in other towns who are disgusted with how teachers in my town let down their students. I know lots of parents in this town who can recite story after story about teacher behavior and competence I find inexcusable.

I am always hearing the hard working, dedicated, let down by the parents story from teachers. I am seeing the exact opposite - union-driven monopolies acting like what they are. Is it possible I just have a terrible school system (relatively good scores thanks to the raw material - have to live it every day to know what I mean) and teachers everywhere else are really as great as they claim? Yes, but the odds are really, really low. I am happy for the talented few, and those who are dedicated to excellence in their students. I was not born with this attitude towards teachers - I had lots of good ones when I was growing up. Something changed along the way. It would be impossible for this not to affect the level of mediocrity in society.

[MarleyMon]

... because I’m only a naturalized American, I’ll keep my opinion to myself for fear it won’t come across as intended.

Hey, that never stopped my grandfather! Let 'er rip, I say! Americans need an outsider opinion, like Toqueville gave a couple hundred years ago.

Plenty of good teachers, imo - grandpa raised 3. Too many kids are not prepared to learn - hungry in the AM, stressed by family situations, distracted by consumer electronics.

[kestrel]

Last time I'll post in this thread:

Neither you nor your wife sounds like a dope. Many teachers work hard (though 100% say they do, and hard work alone is worth very little). Already stipulated to parents not always doing their jobs, though I am living in a town of upwardly mobile professionals who clearly value education and who work to support the schools and impress on their children the need to study hard and do well on tests, so I'm guessing in our town it's relatively easier to deal with students.

That said, your lack of dopeness is utterly irrelevant to the point that people taught by dopes are not likely to turn out well in the aggregate. The opposite of mediocrity is high standards. Those come from people with high standards of personal achievement pushing others to have the same. My experience year after painful year is that our public school teachers have a great tendency to be unprofessional in their dealings with students ("come see me after class in my mandated office hours - oh whoops, left for the day to coach the tennis team - hope you do well on the test tomorrow"), personally lazy in their approach to their jobs, and relatively bad at the act of teaching, as opposed to presenting. I know a couple of teachers who strongly agree with this view. I have talked to teachers in other towns who are disgusted with how teachers in my town let down their students. I know lots of parents in this town who can recite story after story about teacher behavior and competence I find inexcusable.

I am always hearing the hard working, dedicated, let down by the parents story from teachers. I am seeing the exact opposite - union-driven monopolies acting like what they are. Is it possible I just have a terrible school system (relatively good scores thanks to the raw material - have to live it every day to know what I mean) and teachers everywhere else are really as great as they claim? Yes, but the odds are really, really low. I am happy for the talented few, and those who are dedicated to excellence in their students. I was not born with this attitude towards teachers - I had lots of good ones when I was growing up. Something changed along the way. It would be impossible for this not to affect the level of mediocrity in society.

Good God man, you've really had a rough time with public (assumption) education. Lump all those "dopes" (spell that "teachers") together, 80% according to you. So, to what or who do you actually give credit for your education? Must have got where you are because of someone? Maybe you are self-educated, maybe you pulled yourself up by your own bootstraps. Maybe you were home schooled and never attended public or outside the home educational institutions. Give some credit where it's deserved, don't just start shooting at everyone with education credentials and hope you hit the one that licked the red off your lollipop.
The biggest problem with teaching in this country is the same as with any big institution, for the most part, it hasn't been able to keep it's pendulum moving in time to the changing environment and the top echelons (ie CEO's compensation).
CEO's, CFO's, COO's, etc. from the 40's and 50's were making about 3 to 10 times what the senior workers were making, now it's 100's of times the difference. (I know, I pulled those figures from memory, someone is bound to know the actual spread, feel free to correct me.)

[Simon Q]

Good God man, you've really had a rough time with public (assumption) education. Lump all those "dopes" (spell that "teachers") together, 80% according to you. So, to what or who do you actually give credit for your education? Must have got where you are because of someone? Maybe you are self-educated, maybe you pulled yourself up by your own bootstraps. Maybe you were home schooled and never attended public or outside the home educational institutions. Give some credit where it's deserved, don't just start shooting at everyone with education credentials and hope you hit the one that licked the red off your lollipop.
The biggest problem with teaching in this country is the same as with any big institution, for the most part, it hasn't been able to keep it's pendulum moving in time to the changing environment and the top echelons (ie CEO's compensation).
CEO's, CFO's, COO's, etc. from the 40's and 50's were making about 3 to 10 times what the senior workers were making, now it's 100's of times the difference. (I know, I pulled those figures from memory, someone is bound to know the actual spread, feel free to correct me.)

You have hit on a good point, that CEO's salaries are shooting into the stratosphere. It seems that even bad CEO's are getting crazy money becuase that is what you do now - shower them in cash. The good ones who add real value to shareholders and employees, great, they deserve it but there doesn't seem like any downside if the are mediocre.

[Hysbrian]

Last time I'll post in this thread:

Neither you nor your wife sounds like a dope. Many teachers work hard (though 100% say they do, and hard work alone is worth very little). Already stipulated to parents not always doing their jobs, though I am living in a town of upwardly mobile professionals who clearly value education and who work to support the schools and impress on their children the need to study hard and do well on tests, so I'm guessing in our town it's relatively easier to deal with students.

That said, your lack of dopeness is utterly irrelevant to the point that people taught by dopes are not likely to turn out well in the aggregate. The opposite of mediocrity is high standards. Those come from people with high standards of personal achievement pushing others to have the same. My experience year after painful year is that our public school teachers have a great tendency to be unprofessional in their dealings with students ("come see me after class in my mandated office hours - oh whoops, left for the day to coach the tennis team - hope you do well on the test tomorrow"), personally lazy in their approach to their jobs, and relatively bad at the act of teaching, as opposed to presenting. I know a couple of teachers who strongly agree with this view. I have talked to teachers in other towns who are disgusted with how teachers in my town let down their students. I know lots of parents in this town who can recite story after story about teacher behavior and competence I find inexcusable.

I am always hearing the hard working, dedicated, let down by the parents story from teachers. I am seeing the exact opposite - union-driven monopolies acting like what they are. Is it possible I just have a terrible school system (relatively good scores thanks to the raw material - have to live it every day to know what I mean) and teachers everywhere else are really as great as they claim? Yes, but the odds are really, really low. I am happy for the talented few, and those who are dedicated to excellence in their students. I was not born with this attitude towards teachers - I had lots of good ones when I was growing up. Something changed along the way. It would be impossible for this not to affect the level of mediocrity in society.

I agree. Not only have I been disappointed at the majority of the professors or teachers I've had both throughout high school and college, but it the educational system in general. Teachers lack of work ethic or dedication to their job is easily noticed at the university. Numerous teachers choose to post the generic powerpoint presentations that come with the text box. What do they expect to get from students when they themselves put so little in?

It's clear that at the academic level I'm here to learn. I say that the ball is in there court, make me interested, give me something to work with. Why is the blame always placed on the student? I've heard TA's and professors alike tell classrooms full of students that they're not applying themselves and that they aren't taking their education seriously enough.

I think that its the opposite.

[RPS]

Don't worry RPS, we're all neutralized Americans. We can voice our opinions and cast our votes... it still doesn't make any difference. He who has the money, has the power.That's correct most of the time. Some times it's he who has the guns has the power. Read below.

[RPS]

Hey, that never stopped my grandfather! Let 'er rip, I say! Americans need an outsider opinion, like Toqueville gave a couple hundred years ago.

Plenty of good teachers, imo - grandpa raised 3. Too many kids are not prepared to learn - hungry in the AM, stressed by family situations, distracted by consumer electronics.Sorry, but I don’t consider myself an outsider. I’ve been an American citizen longer than many on this forum – but in my case by choice, not providence. I know that dates me, but after spending 85% of my life in the USA, I consider myself as American as apple pie.

Since my mother was a teacher, my brother the principal of a private school, and many other relatives are teachers, I’m not going there either. All I will say on that subject is that according to all of them, lack of discipline in public schools is a major problem; and that teachers shouldn’t be blamed for most of it.

If there is a difference between me and many others here, it’s that I may look at peoples a little more globally; and I don’t know if it’s because I was born in a different country, or simply because I tend to look at the bigger picture in general. My point of view on this is political in nature, so I should pass.

I will only say that my homeland experienced the ultimate shift to mediocrity when it converted to socialism and then communism. Slowly replace personal incentives to work hard, compete, take prudent risks, excel……. and replace them with a sense of entitlement (whether CEOs or laborers), and we too will sink deeper into mediocrity.


P.S. – Personally I think CEO and professional athlete compensation is way out of line, but we have no one to blame but ourselves. We support them whether directly or not, and whether intentionally or not.

[catulle]

That's correct most of the time. Some times it's he who has the guns has the power. Read below.

Money = guns = power = death

Nite, nite...

[RPS]

Money = guns = power = death

Nite, nite...It doesn't always start with money. Many times ruthless dictators start with little more than the ability to convince really ignorant, stupid and/or desperate people that they are the solution to all their problems.

[Avispa]

Has mediocrity become the norm? All you read about is companies doing badly and downsizing, yet giving their top execs bonuses...

My observation on this matter is this: the little guy at the bottom has also noticed this happening and things have turned into a "nobody gives a phuck anymore" mess.

Think about customer service. I am not certain if any of you experience the same, but on any given week, I face at least 4 to 5 incidents of incompetence or unwillingness from a worker to do the right thing... Therefore, I have learned to expect little from products or people that provide a service. Then, if I find that I am getting something better than my expectations, I see it as a novelty rather than the standard.

Perhaps, this way of existence, is in part based on the garbage that the media provides us. On the way that some get away with murder, while others get nailed for stealing a paper clip. On the false believe that this is a free society that will allow anybody to reach their best and be financially independent.... etc.

:confused:

[stevep]

I agree. Not only have I been disappointed at the majority of the professors or teachers I've had both throughout high school and college, but it the educational system in general. Teachers lack of work ethic or dedication to their job is easily noticed at the university. Numerous teachers choose to post the generic powerpoint presentations that come with the text box. What do they expect to get from students when they themselves put so little in?

It's clear that at the academic level I'm here to learn. I say that the ball is in there court, make me interested, give me something to work with. Why is the blame always placed on the student? I've heard TA's and professors alike tell classrooms full of students that they're not applying themselves and that they aren't taking their education seriously enough.

I think that its the opposite.

look in the mirror.
thats where the motivation has to come from.
thats where the drive to succeed has to come from.
thats where the success has to come from.
not the front of the room.
do it yourself.
theres no one else who can get into your head. theres not enough room.
choose a direction and figure out how to get there.
no signs in life.
"study this", " go here", "work on this" and you will succeed.

[MarleyMon]

...I don’t consider myself an outsider...

I'm a uniter, not a divider, certainly didn't want to exclude you by my remark. I was commenting based on my perception that you had excluded yourself ("only a naturalized citizen") from expressing your opinion. I, too, was born outside the US, though a citizen based on my parents citizenship. That fact is not on my passport, though, just place of birth, making for lots of fun at customs. I also have a "right of return" based on my grandfather's foreign birth, so I also try to take a global view. He came bacause his older brother passed on the oppurtunity. Providence, chance, choice - its a gordian knot.

Maybe what we are seeing is an increase in the gulf between classes in our society, rather than a move toward the middle (mediocrity).

[Ahneida Ride]

[QUOTE=atmo]veer -

mediocrity? to dovetail off of another board thread,
mediocrity, to me, is the consumer base's acceptance
of compact frames as industry's way of streamlining
manufacturing and have fewer sku's for retailers, all in
the four sizes fits most approach to getting folks on
bicycles. accepting this is endorsing mediocrity atmo.

/QUOTE]

And slopers are ulgy too. !!!!

Think CEO's are a rip off ?
Form a bank. You can create frn outa thin air. Better yet become
the nation's central bank. Create Inflation. ;)

[RPS]

I'm a uniter, not a divider, certainly didn't want to exclude you by my remark.No worries. My comment was directed at the generalized anti-immigrant comments.

Maybe what we are seeing is an increase in the gulf between classes in our society, rather than a move toward the middle (mediocrity).Personally I think there are two major contributors to this mediocrity problem. The first is the basic changes in society driven by advances in technology; which unfortunately leaves too many behind. An example of that is where my dad worked (although in my industry it was the same). Operators and mechanics alike were not able to adapt well to more sophisticated equipment and at times it seemed like everyone was over their heads.

A second contributor to the problem IMHO was recapped recently in an article by the Associated Press that appeared in our paper under the title: Study finds that, today, everyone seems to think they’re big on campus -- Narcissism can harm our society, researchers warn.

In the opinion of the study as reported, the movement to build self-esteem in children by constantly telling them that they are special has had the unintended consequence of creating too many narcissistic and self-centered individuals who expect life to be easy, and to have things handed to them without having to work hard. No one seems to want to tell kids that they are average or worse yet, that they are below average for fear of hurting their feelings. Instead, we support many of these kids to sit around watching TV instead of working or studying, and then can’t understand why they make bad employees when forced to do a below-average job which doesn’t pay the millions they expected for being so special, so talented. What happens to a kid who is constantly told he is the next Michael Jordan and then doesn’t even make the high-school squad? Whatever he ends up doing, he’s probably going to have a big chip on his shoulder.

[bcm119]

look in the mirror.
thats where the motivation has to come from.
thats where the drive to succeed has to come from.
thats where the success has to come from.
not the front of the room.
do it yourself.
theres no one else who can get into your head. theres not enough room.
choose a direction and figure out how to get there.
no signs in life.
"study this", " go here", "work on this" and you will succeed.
Thats true to an extent but atmo younger kids need inspiration and encouragement to adopt that successful attitude you need in college to learn your ***** despite lazy profs. I guess part of that burden is on parents' shoulders but in my own experience there is usually one great teacher in jr HS or HS that is a catalyst in encouraging a kid to embrace their education. I hope there are enough of those left, atmo.

I agree with Hysbrian about college classes... especially if you're an undergrad at a major research university, you get the shaft in most large classes. The profs don't want to teach them and the TA's barely have time to deal with it. I've taken a few university classes recently just to keep up with my job and I'm been totally blown away by how incompetent some profs are. One guy simply couldn't separate technical details from fundamental concepts and actually made learning harder. I couldn't believe I spent $900 on a class for which I had to use Wikipedia to learn the course material.

[tachyon]

My beef with public education isn't that the teachers don't try. Most do. It isn't that the parent's don't try. Most do.

My beef is that acceptable education from an administrative viewpoint is the least common denominator. It's not acceptable to fail students, teachers must work with the slowest students to get them through the class while the more advanced students are bored out of their gourds. Discipline becomes a problem with the slow students because they are frustrated and the advanced students because the are bored. Teachers have very few methods of discipline, and can face threats to their careers for attempting to keep order in their classrooms.

The problem lies in the basic expectations of education. All students should not be involved in college prep curriculum. Some are better served by vocational education. The problem is that vocational education prepares students for jobs that have been exported.

Education managment refuses to look at the actual problems and just goes back to the well time and time again asking for more money. Modern schools, low student to teacher ratios, computers in classrooms, sporting facilities, etc. are all answers to problems that are only peripherally related to primary education.

Courts, congress, governors, legislators, administrators and lawyers have no place in education. Parent, teachers, students and future employers are the only people who should have any input into the system.

Tom